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thinkup
02-27-2010, 01:37 PM
I need some help installing a new water softener, RO system and acid neutralizer. I'll post pics as the process is completed and hopefully this thread can serve as a nice guide for the future. I have all the main equipment now and need to move on to the main plumbing part. I'll have to come back around for the programing help at the end but first I need everything hooked up. For Ph I have a Fleck 5600 with 1 cuft. I have the WS1 at 32k with SST-60 resin for the softener. A PuroTech RO system and an inline sand seperator. The RO system also has a pump if I need to install it. This is a small ranch house with one bathroom and a simple shower with a regular shower head. There is only two of us living here. I have 3/4 copper coming in and want to use CPVC and PEX as much as possible. I'm a DIYer but have no plumbing experience. The water comes in at one side of the house from the city and drain goes out to a septic system at the opposite side of the house. Also on the drain side of the house is a tankless hot water heater. The kitchen sink is on the main supply side of the house and the bathroom is on the septic side of the house. (60 to 70 feet apart) I'll post the main questions I have to start below and I'll provide the details need as they come up.

My understanding is that the sediment filter is installed first in line, then the neutralizer and then the softener. Is that correct?

I have to run the drain line about 70 feet to the septic drain. I've read that 3/4 PVC is the smart choice. Is that correct? Can the neutralizer and the water softener share the same 3/4 inch PVC drain? Also, how much should this drain line slope?

Should the RO system be fed softened water?

What size plumping pipes should I buy? Everything branches off a main copper pipe that is 3/4 inches now. I don't want the hose bibs softened so I'm even thinking of adding in manifolds if they make sense.

Which is a better choice CPVC vs PEX after the main copper to connect to the water filters?

I'm thinking shark bite fittings for copper to whatever but whats a good PEX connection system? I've read up on it and have a hydronic heating system thats using a crimp system that seems ok but has had some leaking problems. I didn't install that system by the way.

What information can I provide to help out here? Thanks!

Akpsdvan
02-27-2010, 03:25 PM
Pex either red or blue and sharkbites are your friend.
The sharkbite 3/4 coupling from copper to pex and then maybe some bend supports or elbows depending on room.
Sediment filter then Neutralizer then softener then RO would be the line up.. each system's bypass will have markings showing flow.
The RO would be after 2 larger systems. a 3/4x1/2x3/4 TEE and then a 1/2 by -- for the RO feed line.
Because you have the RO going in , I would run the softener on a little higher salt setting for say 1000 gallons.
So if you where going to have the softener set at say 6 lbs and 1000 gallons, with the ro I would have 9lbs and 800gallons.. the ro will work better.

One way of doing the drain is 1/2 poly whit tubing,, if you tie the two together there should be a check valve for each of them in the drain lines.. or just run 2 lines one for each system. Do not go over 8' above the discharge point for either system.

Gary Slusser
02-28-2010, 11:50 AM
Me on the other hand... I don't know how 2 more lbs of salt are going to help an RO. It will have to work harder to remove the additional sodium.

And I say the drain line can't go up more than 6-7 feet from the fitting on the control valve, and it can't go sideways over 30' much unless it is going to come back down from over head. And to go this 70', you need 3/4" from the fitting on the control valve.

Akpsdvan
02-28-2010, 12:04 PM
I know that when I was running the bottle plant for a company , when the softener was on max salt while running just under the max meter setting both the RO and Distiller worked better and needed less cleaning.

thinkup
02-28-2010, 12:44 PM
Here is a quick follow up with photos. Thanks guys for the quick responses. Gary, reading your website and posts is the reason I decided to go the DIY route by the way. Attached are photos of my setup in the basement. I know I'll have to get back to the setup details like salt settings, etc, but first I've got to get the plumbing done. I'm a little worried about the drain line. I just need a break down of the steps to take. Like step one, shut of the main and drain everything. Two, cut the copper and pop in a sharkbite T then attach 3/4 in PEX and then connect to sand seperator. Then go to the ph filter the to the softener, etc. Most of it I got, but putting in the RO of the PEX is a little confusing. And the drain line going so far is a little weird to me, etc. I'll attach the photos and then I'll go over each area that is causing me to question things. Also, does it look like I bought some good equipment? Not getting into if it's all the right size, which it should be because I used a lot of good sites to figure this stuff out, but just considering the brands guess.

thinkup
02-28-2010, 12:47 PM
These are photos of the corner and the equipment. It shows the layout of the space and how high the drain line needs to run up to the ceiling.

thinkup
02-28-2010, 12:50 PM
My first decision is what do I do with this thing at the top of the main supply? What is that? And the you see the first outside hose bib. Should I just tie in right after that so this hose bib is not on soft water?

thinkup
02-28-2010, 12:55 PM
Then I have to worry about the drain. Should I go with one long PVC run at 3/4 inch? How does one drain connect to two filters? I want the drain to be close to the ceiling because in the future I want to finish my basement. There is a photo looking out from the equipment corner to the septic side of the house and a picture of a beam the drain line has to rise up even further over before it gets to the end. Once the drain reaches the end I have a PVC connection a washer will eventually hook up too. What do you think?

Peter Griffin
02-28-2010, 12:55 PM
I have no clue what that thing is but it is a steel fitting and will rust pretty bad so get rid of it. Yes, pipe your supply and bypass after the sillcock.

thinkup
02-28-2010, 01:07 PM
I was thinking of doing that but I do want to get rid of that rusty thing that looks like some sort of pressure relief thing. If I get rid of that and still pipe in after the sillcock then I'll have to add exter bits in first. I was thinking (if you look at the pic of the main supply line with the two tanks) of cutting in where the first connection is near the top of the ph tank. That's why the manifold idea hit me first. I was thinking tie in a manifold and use it to then go to the first sillcock and one line to the filters, etc. Thoughts?

Peter Griffin
02-28-2010, 02:38 PM
I can't see whats screwed into the steel fitting but the fitting has to go. swap it to a brass one if you must but get rid of the steel. I guess you could do a manifold thing but is seems like a lot of extra work.

Gary Slusser
02-28-2010, 02:49 PM
I know that when I was running the bottle plant for a company , when the softener was on max salt while running just under the max meter setting both the RO and Distiller worked better and needed less cleaning.
Then I would have checked the softener for unacceptable hardness leakage and set it up correctly.

Gary Slusser
02-28-2010, 04:09 PM
Gary, reading your website and posts is the reason I decided to go the DIY route by the way. I know I'll have to get back to the setup details like salt settings, etc, but first I've got to get the plumbing done.

Also, does it look like I bought some good equipment? Not getting into if it's all the right size, which it should be because I used a lot of good sites to figure this stuff out, but just considering the brands guess.
I'm glad to see you joining the ranks of the DIYers but I have concerns. I go over constant SFR and K of capacity sizing, programming and installation etc. with my customer usually before they buy. There are few people that buy from me that I don't go over all that with them first.

And I see that you bought the EE version of the Clack WS-1 and a 5600 time clock for a heavy mineral pH filter. I would have told you not to do that. The 5600 is not a good choice because it is a 3/4" valve. You should have gone with the Clack WS-1CS for both with the one for the filter being non metered or the time clock version.

Run your drain line in 3/4" PVC with as few elbows as possible. Run the filter line straight back toward the wall and tee the softener into that line or where the line goes up the wall. No check valves. The fitting on the 5600 is 1/2" FPT and 3/4" MPT on the Clack.

thinkup
02-28-2010, 05:21 PM
Well Gary it's a little sad to hear I didn't buy the perfect gear. It's been a while since this stuff was ordered, I had other projects to finish up. Can you remind me the difference between the EE and the regular WS-1? Also, not looking at product durability or ease of repair, are we mainly talking about flow rates here? There is just two of us living here. We have only one bath and nothing fancy anywhere. There is no horse or other animals that drink a ton of water and if I remember right the 32k might have even been on the overkill side of things. Like I said, its been a while but I did look at the SFR back when this project was fresh. Did the running water into the bucket timed test and estimated some things. I think I remember even using something on your side that took some numbers and spit out some recommendations. Hindsight is a great thing, who knows I might have been better off just giving you a call. I didn't compare prices from you sight but I did get a good deal from a friend on the gear I have. I almost went with a Kinetico before I got my head out of the sand. 6k for everything from them lol! Anyway, I really appreciate your help on this. To everyone as well, thanks for the help. I'm going to do up a little diagram on how I'm going to plumb this and if it looks good I'll do it up and we can move onto configuring the controls.

Akpsdvan
02-28-2010, 05:35 PM
You did good in getting the equipment, now it is to work with what you have with out adding more ..
The clack valve that you have will work very well for what you are doing. The EE is the new and improved valve,, ie more money to spend..

You can run two lines for the drian, one for each or start off each unit put a check valve in the drain and then bring the two together with the higher flow rate discharge on the straight through of the TEE and the lower in at the 90 part of the TEE.

Gary Slusser
03-03-2010, 08:09 AM
Akpsdvan, those Clack valves up there in Alaska that you mention. I can tell you that they aren't my customers and to prove that, you can easily ask your service customer who they bought from.


There you go again. The salesman who sells from a mobile home misrepresenting what I posted.
So now you claim my knowledge is in question because of me living in a mobile home... actually it is a motor home as you know Bob and I and probably a lot of other people think it demeans your position.

And IMO, salesmen know more about this stuff thasn a person that simply owns a softener etc..


If you were to actually read what I posted you would see that I said you posted not knowing the details of THE (emphasis added) installation. I stand by my statement. You posted your criticism before the poster provided the details of his installation.
Installing a filter and/or water softener is straight simple plumbing. You cut a 4" or larger piece of the main water line out and the feed side end goes to the inlet of the filter, from the outlet to the inlet of the softener and then from the softener's outlet back to to the end of the pipe going to the house.



I note that not withstanding all your blustering you do acknowledge that the application of the Fleck 5600 on the AN filter is within the specs for the Fleck 5600. Given those facts it seems like an appropriate application to me. You certainly haven't explained why a 3/4" valve is an inappropriate choice for the poster and his specific application.
That's due to you having no experience in servicing that type and size filter with a 5600 Bob, I do have that experience. The 5600 is a bad choice for heavy mineral filters like this 1.5 cuft AN filter, which I already told you that and I told you why it's a bad choice.


And I stand by my statement that I consider your post criticising the posters equipment selection to be rude. The poster never asked for comments on his equipment selection. What he asked for, if you had bothered to read the post, was for "I need some help installing a new water softener, RO system and acid neutralizer. ".
Well Bob you're repeating yourself and getting emotional while everyone sees your personal attacks on me, including your lying mention of where or how I live etc. etc.. So now you're claiming I didn't read the post! And yet you are going on'n on about what I said about it and how I said it.

Bob999
03-04-2010, 04:44 AM
Well Bob you're repeating yourself and getting emotional while everyone sees your personal attacks on me, including your lying mention of where or how I live

So Gary, I have said that you are a salesman and that you sell from a mobile home with no fixed address. What in that statement are you saying is untrue?

You are a salesman.

As a salesman you sell--if there are buyers.

You live in a mobile home, or motor home, according to the information you post in your avatar.

The mobile home has no fixed address--again based on the information you post in your avatar.

So what do you believe in my statement is a lie?

I think you owe me an apology for your defamatory statement.

Gary Slusser
03-04-2010, 12:15 PM
So Gary, I have said that you are a salesman and that you sell from a mobile home with no fixed address. What in that statement are you saying is untrue?

You are a salesman.

As a salesman you sell--if there are buyers.

You live in a mobile home, or motor home, according to the information you post in your avatar.

The mobile home has no fixed address--again based on the information you post in your avatar.

So what do you believe in my statement is a lie?

I think you owe me an apology for your defamatory statement.
The untrue part, the lie, is that I live in a mobile home.

And now you have compounded your misinformation Bob.

I do have a fixed address, and an avatar is a picture Bob, it has no information in it. I have filled out my Profile here but nowhere in my profile do I say I don't have a fixed address or that I do. I say I live wherever I park the motorhome.

Another thing in my profile is my real name Bob, and the address of my web site where my fixed address and phone number is listed along with a link to 'Where we are' that pinpoints my exact location on a map of north America with the GPS coordinates that are accurate to within 5-10' of actual.

All that while you are anonymous and refuse to say anything about yourself, and especially anything about your experience in water treatment, while you read spec sheets but can't comprehend the full meaning of the information.

You remind me of a number of people that have been banned from here and you are now repeating the same things in your personal attacks that they said. So rather than an apology Bob, I'll simply say that your emotionally driven agenda is causing you to whine too much.

Bob999
03-04-2010, 02:09 PM
You remind me of a number of people that have been banned from here and you are now repeating the same things in your personal attacks that they said. So rather than an apology Bob, I'll simply say that your emotionally driven agenda is causing you to whine too much.

Gary, I have not attacked you and will not be provoked into attacking you--notwithstanding your continuing unfounded statements about me and my knowledge of water treatment. I am specifically referring to this statement: "while you read spec sheets but can't comprehend the full meaning of the information".

As to my statements that you sell from a mobile home--here are dictionary definitions of the terms "mobile" and "home":

mobile–adjective
1. capable of moving or being moved readily.

home–noun 1. a house, apartment, or other shelter that is the usual residence of a person, family, or household.

These definitons seem to fit your living arrangements.




P.S. here is a definition of avator from Wikipedia that differs a bit from your assertion:

"An avatar is a computer user's representation of himself/herself or alter ego, whether in the form of a three-dimensional model used in computer games,[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar_(computing)#cite_note-0) a two-dimensional icon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icon) (picture) or a one-dimensional username used on Internet forums (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_forum) and other communities,[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar_(computing)#cite_note-1)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar_(computing)#cite_note-2) or a text construct found on early systems such as MUDs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUD). It is an object representing the user. The term "avatar" can also refer to the personality connected with the screen name (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screen_name_(computing)), or handle, of an Internet user.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar_(computing)#cite_note-3) This sense of the word was coined by Neal Stephenson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neal_Stephenson)[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avatar_(computing)#cite_note-4) in 1992's Snow Crash (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_Crash) who co-opted it from the Sanskrit word avatāra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avat%C4%81ra) which is a concept similar to that of incarnation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarnation)."

Gary Slusser
03-05-2010, 10:37 PM
Maybe pictures will help Bob.

Here is a motor home and a mobile home.
.
10135

ATTACH]10134[/ATTACH]

Akpsdvan
03-05-2010, 11:22 PM
It is so good to see that Red Neck is not Just in the South...

And that this thread could be classified as Crashed, Broken, Ended

Bob999
03-06-2010, 04:36 AM
Maybe pictures will help Bob.

Here is a motor home and a mobile home.
.
10135

ATTACH]10134[/ATTACH]

Gary, it appears that both pictures you posted fall within the definitions I posted.

Peter Griffin
03-06-2010, 04:50 AM
Round these parts we call that bottom picture a trailur

Gary Slusser
03-06-2010, 06:54 AM
Most of the USA does, except for our Bob here but then he's just trying to be a PITA. Or maybe not and he believes what he is saying.... Like when he tells people to use a 1/2 cup of Iron Out regardless the size of the softener or the amount of iron in the person's water.

Bob999
03-06-2010, 08:56 AM
Most of the USA does, except for our Bob here but then he's just trying to be a PITA. Or maybe not and he believes what he is saying.... Like when he tells people to use a 1/2 cup of Iron Out regardless the size of the softener or the amount of iron in the person's water.

There you go again--false statements about my posts. I challenge you to support your statement that "he tells people to use a 1/2 cup of Iron Out regardless the size of the softener or the amount of iron in the person's water". You will not be able to support your statement because it is not something I posted. Perhaps you are having another of your senior moments.

I won't call you a liar for posting false information about me notwithstanding the fact that you have falsely posted that I have lied.

Gary Slusser
03-06-2010, 11:28 AM
There you go again--false statements about my posts. I challenge you to support your statement that "he tells people to use a 1/2 cup of Iron Out regardless the size of the softener or the amount of iron in the person's water". You will not be able to support your statement because it is not something I posted. Perhaps you are having another of your senior moments.

I won't call you a liar for posting false information about me notwithstanding the fact that you have falsely posted that I have lied.
Check out your statement in BOLD below. Apology expected. Anyone wanting the URL to the thread can PM me.

Also, the part in red below is incorrect unless the salt dose efficiency calls for that percent of increase, which varies greatly, and you don't know the volume of resin or the salt dose so you can't know the salt efficiency yet.

Your pretending to know this stuff by repeating what you have read me telling people is leading people astray Bob.

http://forum.************.com/water-softeners-air-filtration-systems/418803-how-program-water-softener.html
03-01-10, 03:46 PM
Bob999 (http://forum.************.com/members/377231-bob999)
Member
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: PA
Posts: 53

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdn2424
1. does moderate levels of hardness destroy plumbing over time if a softener is not used?

2. Example, when I program 9 or 10 grains of hardness, basically I am telling my water softener thats how much hardness I have in my water. originally (I am new to water softeners) I thought always put it on 1 grain of hardness, to tell the water softener to make it soft

3. so its ok to switch up my salts? I should use my reg soft pack but once in a while its ok to use other specific salts that remove iron?

Plumbing fixtures and valves will last longer and work better with soft water--the harder the water the greater the improvement.

You should always use salt--sodium chloride is the least expensive and most widely used but some people use potassium chloride to avoid adding sodium to the water. If you do use potassium chloride you will need to increase the amount of salt used by about 30%. I suggested that you periodically--perhaps with every bag of salt--add say 1/2 cup of iron out in with the salt to keep the resin free of iron. Alternatively you could use a salt with the iron removing additive already mixed in with the salt.

Bob999
03-06-2010, 11:56 AM
Gary,

Your statement that I disputed was: "he tells people to use a 1/2 cup of Iron Out regardless the size of the softener or the amount of iron in the person's water" (emphasis added).

Your showing that I posted a recomendation to use 1/2 cup of Iron Out in one instance does NOT support your statement. So no apology due so far.

Peter Griffin
03-06-2010, 12:59 PM
10139

meoooooooooowwwww

Gary Slusser
03-06-2010, 01:16 PM
Gary,

Your statement that I disputed was: "he tells people to use a 1/2 cup of Iron Out regardless the size of the softener or the amount of iron in the person's water" (emphasis added).

Your showing that I posted a recomendation to use 1/2 cup of Iron Out in one instance does NOT support your statement. So no apology due so far.
Well I've just reread the entire thread and nowhere is the size of any softener mentioned.

And actually you said "I suggested" but it should be 'I suggest'.

Nowhere does anyone mention the size of any softener.

And the amount of iron the OP showed in a link to his test result was .03 ppm!!

So you have suggested a 1/2 cup of Iron Out without knowing the volume of resin, and for only .03 ppm of iron.

Then you say to add that 1/2 cup of Iron Out with every bag of salt!! which makes your advice even worse.

Your words Bob, just as I said.

Akpsdvan
03-06-2010, 01:31 PM
Well I've just reread the entire thread and nowhere is the size of any softener mentioned.

And actually you said "I suggested" but it should be 'I suggest'.

Nowhere does anyone mention the size of any softener.

And the amount of iron the OP showed in a link to his test result was .03 ppm!!

So you have suggested a 1/2 cup of Iron Out without knowing the volume of resin, and for only .03 ppm of iron.

Then you say to add that 1/2 cup of Iron Out with every bag of salt!! which makes your advice even worse.

Your words Bob, just as I said.

I am still looking for the .03ppm Fe....

One thing that has worked for over 20 years is putting in some Iron out between the bags of extra course.. how much? that depends on the amount of Iron in the water and the size of the unit.. Have I messured the amount? no..(.. more like sugar toast if you know what that is... ) any where from a lite coat to a more heavy coat...

Now I use the extra course because if there is a Salt Bridge it is easier to break than the pellet salt.. and there is less binder at the bottom of the brine tank..
There are any number that I do not add the iron out to, there is no need , the salt and cleaning cycle does what is needed..
Each case is different again this is not a cookie cutter or one size fits all...

Gary Slusser
03-06-2010, 04:04 PM
Oh Gary, if only you were able to read the English language I wouldn't have to keep answering your posts. Did you speak Farci at home when you were growing up?

So Gary, the noun "people" is plural. That means that it refers to 2 or more individuals in case you don't know what plural means. And a noun is a part of speech that is used to name a person, place, thing, quality, or action.

Gary--you said that "he tells people to use ..." but you were only able to show that I suggested the use of 1/2 cup of Iron Out in one instance. QED
Actually Dad used to talk Pennsylvania Dutch and a bit of German sometimes. I have been into Spanish and Dutch a bit many years ago but Dutch didn't work out much.

Yes I know plural, that's like more than one right? And since the OP, the other guy that tagged into the thread and at least me read the dumb statements you made, that makes plural I think.

Plus... you posted that incorrect information in a thread on a forum that will have many people reading it for years and screwing up their softeners at great expense to them Bob.

A 1/2 cup of Iron Out with each bag of salt!!! LOL

You should go back and correct that bad advice Bob.

Bob999
03-06-2010, 04:08 PM
Gary, can we just agree to disagree?

I will make my recommendation a bit more specific and perhaps that will alleviate some of your concerns--add 1/2 cup of Iron Out per 80 lb bag of salt. That should deal with the ambiguity because salt is packaged in different weight bags in different markets.

Gary Slusser
03-06-2010, 04:18 PM
I am still looking for the .03ppm Fe....
That is because you don't know where the thread is and this forum won't allow the link. Below is the water test data the OP there posted and Bob replied to.


One thing that has worked for over 20 years is putting in some Iron out between the bags of extra course.. how much? that depends on the amount of Iron in the water and the size of the unit.. Have I messured the amount? no..(.. more like sugar toast if you know what that is... ) any where from a lite coat to a more heavy coat...
I mixed some in a couple gallons of water but when I tell a customer to do it, I state a specific dry measure cup volume based on their size of softener and how much iron in their water and how much water they use on like a weekly basis, and I also tell them how frequently to do it. I also tell them to use warm water if possible. That works much better and they use much less than sprinkling some in some in amongst the salt.
.

Bob999
03-06-2010, 04:38 PM
That is because you don't know where the thread is and this forum won't allow the link. Below is the water test data the OP there posted and Bob replied to.




I am wondering if perhaps the thread, or at least portions of it have been deleted from this board and the "quotes" that have been posted no longer exist on this board.

Gary--Are you quoting from posts currently on this board or have you saved posts that have been deleted?

Gary Slusser
03-06-2010, 04:50 PM
Gary, can we just agree to disagree?

I stand by my advice. I note you have not posted what you believe to be better or more correct information so I find it hard to believe you are really very serious about all this.

And I am not surprised about your background--there are a lot of what are locally know as "hard headed" Pennsylvania Dutch in Pennsylvania. You see to fit the stereotype.
LOL yer so easy Bob... but no, no agreement here until you own up. Especially when you know I'm right and you call me hardheaded while refusing to take responsibility for your screw up.

So I have decided that I am not going to teach you more than to say you should read my latest reply to AKpsdvan, read his thoughts on this subject too.

So to you, since my Dad spoke some PA Dutch, my heritage has to be PA Dutch and I'm hard headed too. That demonstrates that in addition to you giving bad advice, you also have a lack of common sense or ability to think logically, and as you get caught in one, you are more than prone to jumping to other incorrect conclusions.

Gary Slusser
03-06-2010, 04:59 PM
I am wondering if perhaps the thread, or at least portions of it have been deleted from this board and the "quotes" that have been posted no longer exist on this board.

Gary--Are you quoting from posts currently on this board or have you saved posts that have been deleted?
The thread is on another forum, not here on Terry's forums, and this forum won't allow the link to the other forum, but what difference does that make when I quoted what you said Bob? You aren't thinking I would lie about our Bob are you?

Akpsdvan
03-06-2010, 05:20 PM
So we have been talking about some thing that is not even in this thread nor on this forum?

Like taking a test and half of the information that we are to know was in the teachers mind ....

So 20 years of field work and learning of what works and what does not work is worth nothing ? is that it? I am to drop all that information and learning and go with either you or the books that you have gotten your information from?

There is one other person that I know that feels that they are always right and no one else is even close to having it right........ and guess what , he and I have not talked for 8 years this last time around, and he lives in the same town....... that person is my father....


I have no room for some one that has an ego that is so large that it is them and no one else has any idea that could work. Do I have all the answers? far from it... each day is new and new ideas and new tricks on how to get to a goal.

Terry
03-06-2010, 06:04 PM
What is this about being Dutch?

Did they have a team in the Olympics?
And does the Dutch have a team here on the softener forum?

What does it mean if you are Dutch?
My family is from Europe, and it seems all over, so how do I know if I"m part Dutch, and should I be happy or sad once I find out.

Does this mean I will have more complaints that this web site doesn't measure up to other web sites?
Is it because someone here is Dutch?
If they turn out to be Dutch, is there some place you send them, to you know, change them?

Would a Dutch person live in a motor home with wheels, or do they prefer the ones with the wheels removed?

Is being Dutch bad?
Can I use it as an insult if I run out of good words to use?

Peter Griffin
03-06-2010, 07:48 PM
I'm just grateful that there be no doubt as to me heritage mates

Gary Slusser
03-06-2010, 11:34 PM
So we have been talking about some thing that is not even in this thread nor on this forum?

Like taking a test and half of the information that we are to know was in the teachers mind ....

So 20 years of field work and learning of what works and what does not work is worth nothing ? is that it? I am to drop all that information and learning and go with either you or the books that you have gotten your information from?

There is one other person that I know that feels that they are always right and no one else is even close to having it right........ and guess what , he and I have not talked for 8 years this last time around, and he lives in the same town....... that person is my father....


I have no room for some one that has an ego that is so large that it is them and no one else has any idea that could work. Do I have all the answers? far from it... each day is new and new ideas and new tricks on how to get to a goal.
Man no wonder why you're having problems getting along with others. I'm not following you as to why you're so upset with me, I hope adult beverages aren't involved.

May I suggest that tomorrow you go visit and talk to your Dad and apology for being disrespectful and as our Bob would say, hard headed?.Just go listen, nod affirmative occasionally and say you agree, even if you don't. Smile too. You'll feel better later if you do that like once a week.

Skip Wolverton
03-07-2010, 04:02 AM
Man no wonder why you're having problems getting along with others. I'm not following you as to why you're so upset with me, I hope adult beverages aren't involved.

May I suggest that tomorrow you go visit and talk to your Dad and apology for being disrespectful and as our Bob would say, hard headed?.Just go listen, nod affirmative occasionally and say you agree, even if you don't. Smile too. You'll feel better later if you do that like once a week.
When did Dr. Phill join this forum? I thought this was about water treatment.

Peter Griffin
03-07-2010, 04:48 AM
Oooh Oooh, can I be Oprah? :)

Bob999
03-07-2010, 06:54 AM
What is this about being Dutch? ....

Is being Dutch bad?
Can I use it as an insult if I run out of good words to use?

In my part of the country the Pennsylvania Dutch are generally generally known as "salt of the earth" kind of folks--hard working, honest, etc. They are also generally known as "hard headed"--stubborn and unyielding. Of course these are generalizations and every individual is different.

Terry
03-07-2010, 01:04 PM
Hey guys,
Can you please delete and or modify your posts that don't add to this discussion?

When I go through these things, I tend to be heavy on the delete key.

I'm in a lot of pain today, and it's way too hard for me to focus.

Gary Slusser
03-07-2010, 01:27 PM
Delete didn't work or I couldn't figure out how to do the Delete Post thing so I edited instead.

I hope you get to feeling better.

thinkup
03-14-2010, 12:46 PM
Should I even mention that my last name is Dutcher? Just saying, lol. Looks I missed some fun while I was out. I had a hell of a time at work with OT and some down HP blade servers, so I'm behind. Anyone need any help with blade servers, SANs, or iSCSI give me a shout. Fun times. But I'm back and I'm still working on this DIY project. I bought some copper and some PVC and stuff this weekend and am begging the test fit stages. Hope to has this all done by the end of next weekend.

Attached I have a photo of a test setup I've done for the drain line. I want to know if this will work or makes sense to do it this way. It's 3/4 PVC coming in from the filter setup. The setup would be about 30 feet back from it and I need to go up and over a joist. I put together 2 45 degree elbows. Will this cause a problem in the drain line or will this work?

I'll be back soon with more test fits. Like, will 3/4 PEX give me the same water pressure as 3/4 copper or CPVC?

Akpsdvan
03-14-2010, 12:53 PM
It will work.

I have run 1/2 poly up and over items, under items all in getting to the spot for the drain..

Peter Griffin
03-14-2010, 02:34 PM
3/4 Pex will be fine.

Gary Slusser
03-15-2010, 11:46 PM
Attached I have a photo of a test setup I've done for the drain line. I want to know if this will work or makes sense to do it this way. It's 3/4 PVC coming in from the filter setup. The setup would be about 30 feet back from it and I need to go up and over a joist. I put together 2 45 degree elbows. Will this cause a problem in the drain line or will this work?

I'll be back soon with more test fits. Like, will 3/4 PEX give me the same water pressure as 3/4 copper or CPVC?
PVC is IPS (iron pipe size ) and the ID is maintained, CPVC, copper and PEX is CTS (the OD is maintained). That means that IPS has a larger ID and will deliver more water.

You can't fully dry fit PVC because without cement, the pipe will not go all the way into the fitting. WHen you glue things up, everything will shrink in length and height. Measure, cut, fit and glue as you install.

thinkup
03-29-2010, 06:59 PM
Ok I have a bit left to do, like run electric for the outlet and finish the drain; but it's almost done. I've also gone very simple on the piping for my own sanity. I know I'll have more work down the road when I service this because I didn't run a bypass around it, but I just want everything up and running first. I'll shut the water off again in the future to perfect everything. Let me know what you think of all of this. Thanks.

O and the drain line is bugging me. I was going to go 1/2 tubing from both filters to a T and then to the 3/4 PVC ... but what's stopping the water from going from one tank and then right to the other tank and not up the wall to the 3/4 drain line? What stops the water from coming back down too? Thanks.

Akpsdvan
03-29-2010, 07:21 PM
Sweet.... Looks good and clean...

On the drain.. use a check valve.. there are 1/2" check valves that you could use just after each of the units and then when on of them goes into a cleaning cycle the waste water will not go passed the check valve to the other unit.
you can use a swing check valve as little to no presure is needed to open it, but will block the water from going backwards through the swing or gate..

thinkup
03-29-2010, 07:25 PM
Awesome, I'll have to look into those check valves. Check out what I came up with for an air gap at the end. Does this look like it will work well?



No.
None of that plumbing was done correctly.
Terry Love

Akpsdvan
03-29-2010, 08:15 PM
My only challenge with air gaps like this , if that is spot on.. there will be water where it should not be, if it gets knoked out of alinment then there will be water where it should not be...

One idea that I seen a plumber use was to take the bottom one, say 2 or 3" and cut in half from the end down about 6 inches and then cut out ... so that there is only half of the diamitor is in play and use that half to anchor the feed from the drain..

I will see if I can come up with a photo of it...

Skip Wolverton
03-30-2010, 04:56 AM
Ok I have a bit left to do, like run electric for the outlet and finish the drain; but it's almost done. I've also gone very simple on the piping for my own sanity. I know I'll have more work down the road when I service this because I didn't run a bypass around it, but I just want everything up and running first. I'll shut the water off again in the future to perfect everything. Let me know what you think of all of this. Thanks.

O and the drain line is bugging me. I was going to go 1/2 tubing from both filters to a T and then to the 3/4 PVC ... but what's stopping the water from going from one tank and then right to the other tank and not up the wall to the 3/4 drain line? What stops the water from coming back down too? Thanks.
The Clack valve I looked at shows the inlet on the right. You have it on the left. Are you sure yours is right?

thinkup
03-30-2010, 05:42 AM
The Clack valve I looked at shows the inlet on the right. You have it on the left. Are you sure yours is right?

I have it go from pre-filter to the port on the right of the Ph filter (Input) then out on the left of the Ph filter to the input on the right of the softener. The copper stub out on the left of the water softener is just hanging out now till I connect it to the house. This is all looking at the thing from head on. Does that sound right? Arrows pointing toward the tank are inputs and the arrows pointing out from the tank are out to the house correct? I'll double check when I get home so thanks for taking a look at it for me. That's what I'm looking for her, just some good advice and some double checking. Thanks.

Gary Slusser
03-30-2010, 07:56 AM
Thinkup, in your first post starting the thread you said you were doing this as a guide for the future to help others.

With that in mind, some constructive criticism.

You should not have a prefilter in front of your backwashed AN filter. You do not want to restruct/reduce water flow to the AN filter in any way. If you do, you will cause incomplete backwash and that will kill the mineral.

You should not install a by pass around this equipment. You have by pass valves on both pieces and that is all that is needed. To remove the filter or softener if ever needed, you disconnect the control valve from the by pass vale after putting the unit in by pass.

You should not plumb the AN filter back in that corner. The way it is now will make adding mineral difficult to impossible and looking at the top dome hole plug location, you'll have to remove the filter from the by pass valve, and loosen the control valve to get the plug out and new mineral into the tank. I would have put the AN filter next to the main water line as you had it in your first picture in this thread; main, and to its RIGHT the filter and then the softener.

I would shorten all the lengths of plumbing. There is no need to go so hig above 'things' or out from the wall as much as you have it.

I would have installed both pieces back closer to the wall. And I would have used the Clack elbow plumbing connectors instead of the brass and then copper pigtails you had to buy, cut and solder straight out the back pf the bu pass valve. Instead of PEX, I would have used 3/4" CPVC or copper.

You do not want check valves in the drain line. T the softener drain line into the the run of 3/4" PVC from the AN filter. Both control valves have internal valves for the drain line flow, so the drain water from one can't get into the other control valve. Plus you set the time of day on the filter ahead by 45 minutes so it backwashes before the softener regenerates so neither unit is using water while the other is using water anyway.

thinkup
03-30-2010, 09:43 AM
"You should not have a prefilter in front of your backwashed AN filter. You do not want to restruct/reduce water flow to the AN filter in any way. If you do, you will cause incomplete backwash and that will kill the mineral."

This is a problem for me and out of your response is the one I want to address the most. Should I put the prefilter after then? It's a pretty simple sand seperator but I want to protect the equipment as much as possible. And if I got what your saying right, having it first will put lower pressure water into the AN filter and when it needs to backwash it will "kill" the mineral? I just wanted clarity on that.

"You should not plumb the AN filter back in that corner. The way it is now will make adding mineral difficult to impossible and looking at the top dome hole plug location, you'll have to remove the filter from the by pass valve, and loosen the control valve to get the plug out and new mineral into the tank. I would have put the AN filter next to the main water line as you had it in your first picture in this thread; main, and to its left the filter and then the softener."

O man, I konw! I played around with the setup forever. I had that huge pre-filter to think about. But now I will be moving it so thats ok. But I also wanted to keep the PEX as short as possible. Which leads me too..

"I would shorten all the lengths of plumbing. There is no need to go so hig above 'things' or out from the wall as much as you have it."

My only concern was not going to short and getting stuck. I had to a lot of trial and error with things because I'm new to all this. The copper was the worst. I didn't know I could get something for the softener that wasn't a sweat connection. O well. It's on there now. I'll live with the ackward placement as much as possible now. My big concern is water pressure. Will shortening the pipes a little give me more water pressure?

"You do not want check valves in the drain line. T the softener drain line into the the run of 3/4" PVC from the AN filter. Both control valves have internal valves for the drain line flow, so the drain water from one can't get into the other control valve. Plus you set the time of day on the filter ahead by 45 minutes so it backwashes before the softener regenerates so neither unit is using water while the other is using water anyway. "

I'm a little confused here. Not needing the check valve is the easy part. Right now I have at home a 10 foot length of 1/2 tubing, a 1/2 to 3/4 in coupling with a barb on the end to connect the tubing to the 3/4 PVC drain line and a 1/2 T. So I should go 1/2 tube out of AN to the T and then from the other side of the T go up to my barbed couplign and then to the 3/4 drain line? That would leave the leg of the T for the water softener? I was wondering what happend when the AN backwashes .... how does the water just go up the 1/2 tube to the 3/4 PVC and not through the T to the water softener? I get that there is a control there to prevent the water from going inside and I will put that 45 min window in (great point thanks) but just curious and wanted to do it right.

I do want this to be a for others with some photo examples and various techniques used so I'll go back through and make changes as needed. Thanks for all the help. I'll post more photos for clarity tonight.

Akpsdvan
03-30-2010, 10:12 AM
I have used a pre-filter before other Equipment because there is a need and one works with it.
Some times How the Valve is screwed onto the tank will place the dome hole in a different spot, you may try that, other wise it is where is it and one works with things the way they are.

Shorter runs might work better, but with the sharkbites that you have if pressure after while is not right, you can shorten some of the runs and see if that works better.

If one unit goes into a cleaning cycle while the other is in service the unit that is in service will block the waste from the other one from getting in, but if there is a problem with the unit in service it may not block that water.

when a unit is in service there is no water going to the drain if the valve is in the correct spot and the seals are good, but if piston is not or seals are not good,, the water to drain.

Skip Wolverton
03-30-2010, 11:29 AM
I have it go from pre-filter to the port on the right of the Ph filter (Input) then out on the left of the Ph filter to the input on the right of the softener. The copper stub out on the left of the water softener is just hanging out now till I connect it to the house. This is all looking at the thing from head on. Does that sound right? Arrows pointing toward the tank are inputs and the arrows pointing out from the tank are out to the house correct? I'll double check when I get home so thanks for taking a look at it for me. That's what I'm looking for her, just some good advice and some double checking. Thanks.
I stand corrected. I thought the sediment filter was last and that is what confused me.

thinkup
03-30-2010, 11:42 AM
No thank you for looking at the setup. How does everything else look to you? Where would you put the sediment filter?

Bob999
03-30-2010, 11:55 AM
Where would you put the sediment filter?

If you are going to install a sand/sediment filter it should be the first item. If you get sufficient sand and sediment that it would cause problems if it got into the AN filter than it should be installed as you have it. The real question is whether a separate sand/sediment filter is necessary. The AN filter will filter out sediment but if you get signifcant amounts of sand it may cause problems.

If you do put the sand/sediment filter in front of the AN filter then it is VERY IMPORTANT that you keep it clean so that it does not end up restricting flow and reducing the backwash effectiveness of the AN filter. (The AN filter is the primary concern because the backwash rate is much higher than the softener.)

thinkup
03-30-2010, 01:15 PM
I'm on what is called muni water. It's not a well and I get my water from the village. The trouble is it seems like the village is just shipping me their well water. Granted it passes basic EPA stuff but it's hard water and rates a 6.4 to 6.7 for Ph. I'm not sure how much I need the sand separator though. It has a clear housing so I can monitor it but I don't want it messing up the AN filter.

Can someone explain to me the basic process of how the backwash cycle works on the AN? I guess I need some AN filter 101 training.

P.S. I'm still going to post some photos of the drain setup tonight for review. Thanks everyone.

Bob999
03-30-2010, 02:30 PM
Can someone explain to me the basic process of how the backwash cycle works on the AN? I guess I need some AN filter 101 training.


In the operating mode the water flows down through the media and is collected at the bottom of the tank and then flows up the distributor tube and out to the house. When the filter backwashes the water flow is reversed and the water flows down through the distributer tube to the bottom of the tank and then up through the media. The flow is controlled by the drain line flow button and the size of the button is chosen so that (ideally) the backwash flow will lift the media bed and remove dirt, silt, and very small media particles and flush them to the drain. Following the backwash the valve reverses the flow back to the service flow direction and does a "settling" rinse that is also flushed to drain to settle the bed and remove additional small particles. The valve then returns to the service position so that the water flows to the house plumbing

thinkup
03-30-2010, 03:35 PM
That sounds simple enough. So if I got that right, if your flow control button isn't sized correctly or your backwash pressure isn't high enough, then your media isn't lifted enough to clean it? As the water flows through this media over time, will I see this media being eatin away by the acid in the water? To much acid and not enough backwash = the "killing" of the media I'm taking it? I should expect to have to add media again over time but I want the longest life span from it.

I didn't notice the bottom of the distributar tube, but does that have a filter on it to prevent all the media from going into the water supply. The tube is sitting in the bottom with gravel around it but the media looks fine and dusty.

Speaking of media; the softener media is like soft wet brown sugar or something. Does that work about the same way? The water flows down through this mixture and then up through the tube to the house? What stops all that resin from going up into the water supply?

Back to the AN filter, are there settings or things to do to make sure it's backwashing correctly / enough / often enough / or with enough water pressure, etc.?

Bob999
03-30-2010, 04:37 PM
That sounds simple enough. So if I got that right, if your flow control button isn't sized correctly or your backwash pressure isn't high enough, then your media isn't lifted enough to clean it? Correct.
As the water flows through this media over time, will I see this media being eatin away by the acid in the water? The media will gradually be consumed by the acid and you will need to add media periodically.
To much acid and not enough backwash = the "killing" of the media I'm taking it? If the media is not adequately backwashed it may need to be replaced prematurely. I should expect to have to add media again over time but I want the longest life span from it.

I didn't notice the bottom of the distributar tube, but does that have a filter on it to prevent all the media from going into the water supply. There is a bulb with slits that prevents normal sized resin (in the softener) or AN media from escaping. The tube is sitting in the bottom with gravel around it but the media looks fine and dusty. The media, when initially added, will have to be backwashed until the backwash water runs clear.

Speaking of media; the softener media is like soft wet brown sugar or something. Does that work about the same way? Yes. The water flows down through this mixture and then up through the tube to the house? Yes. What stops all that resin from going up into the water supply? A bulb with slits similar to the AN filter.

Back to the AN filter, are there settings or things to do to make sure it's backwashing correctly / enough / often enough / or with enough water pressure, etc.? Water pressure is determined by your water supply and your maintenance of any filter in front of it. The Fleck head has settings to determine how many days between backwashing. The Fleck 5600 does not have adjustable backwash but with the standard piston the backwash time of 30 minutes combined for the first and second backwash should be adequate.

See my comments in red above.

thinkup
03-30-2010, 07:44 PM
WOW! Awesome, thanks so much for the feedback Bob999. It's much appreciated. I'm going to have to think about that pre-filter now. At this point I'm thinking of leaving it where it is and watching it like hawk for the first month or so. I have a feeling I will be playing around with other plumbing projects in the basement as well, so not a big deal.

Attached are photos of some of my drain parts. The 3/4 PVC and air-gapped end are already posted. To add to my list of things to think about are how to hook up all these things.

thinkup
03-30-2010, 07:57 PM
I did this up quick in paint. From my understanding, check valves are not needed when things are working correctly but in times when things go bad they would prevent the water backing up. So in that case I really don't need them. But will they actually hurt? As in will the pressure drop? It's not like the Dee Pot actually has 1/2 check valves here anyway but I could find them if needed.

And is my diagram correct in how I should hook this up? The backwash from the AN will go only to the 3/4 PVC and not to the softener and if it does it will just fill up it's hose and not go into the unit? Thanks so much everyone.

Bob999
03-31-2010, 06:11 AM
I did this up quick in paint. From my understanding, check valves are not needed when things are working correctly but in times when things go bad they would prevent the water backing up. So in that case I really don't need them. But will they actually hurt? Check valves add resistance to flow and like any mechanical thing can fail so you need to balance these factors against the potential benefits. As in will the pressure drop? It's not like the Dee Pot actually has 1/2 check valves here anyway but I could find them if needed.

And is my diagram correct in how I should hook this up? yesThe backwash from the AN will go only to the 3/4 PVC and not to the softener and if it does it will just fill up it's hose and not go into the unit? Correct-if everything is working correctly. Thanks so much everyone.

See comments above.

One observation--If I were doing it I woud do the transition from 1/2" flexible hose to 3/4 PVC close to each filter and before the T so that the T in the drain line was 3/4 PVC. This will provide better flow (less backpressure) in your drain line.

Skip Wolverton
03-31-2010, 06:24 AM
The drain set up looks good. They do make a funnel shape devise that will glue onto the 1 1/2 pipe that will prevent the drain from spilling. You might try finding it at a plumbing shop.

thinkup
03-31-2010, 06:50 AM
The drain set up looks good. They do make a funnel shape devise that will glue onto the 1 1/2 pipe that will prevent the drain from spilling. You might try finding it at a plumbing shop.

I was wondering about that. I was thinking of looking for something like that. I figured I had to do something to perfect that air gap a little and that might be it. Thanks.

thinkup
03-31-2010, 06:54 AM
See comments above.

One observation--If I were doing it I woud do the transition from 1/2" flexible hose to 3/4 PVC close to each filter and before the T so that the T in the drain line was 3/4 PVC. This will provide better flow (less backpressure) in your drain line.

So would you recomend then to come down the wall with the 3/4 PVC and then add a 3/4 PVC T and then to add a second 3/4 PVC to 1/2 coupler? That would just mean running a short little run of 1/2 tube from the AN and the softener and having all the rest 3/4 PVC. I just figured it would be eaiser to push up the tube of water at 1/2 inch then have the filters push up the water through 3/4 PVC. Whatever works better though is what I want to do obviously. Thanks for the suggestion and all the help.

Bob999
03-31-2010, 07:03 AM
So would you recomend then to come down the wall with the 3/4 PVC and then add a 3/4 PVC T and then to add a second 3/4 PVC to 1/2 coupler? That would just mean running a short little run of 1/2 tube from the AN and the softener and having all the rest 3/4 PVC. I just figured it would be eaiser to push up the tube of water at 1/2 inch then have the filters push up the water through 3/4 PVC. Whatever works better though is what I want to do obviously. Thanks for the suggestion and all the help.

Yes that is what I would do.

Gary Slusser
03-31-2010, 10:14 AM
See my comments in red above.
This one is wrong; The Fleck head has settings to determine how many days between backwashing and how long the backwash and settling rinse are.

The 5600 he has is a 12 day time clock and he can select the number of days between backwashes but he CAN NOT change how long the backwash and settling rinse are. That is one of the biggest reasons why the non electronic version 5600 is a bad choice for heavy mineral filters. Another reason is it is a 3/4" valve and he will not backwash his AN mineral as well as a 1" valve would.

thinkup
03-31-2010, 10:28 AM
This one is wrong; The Fleck head has settings to determine how many days between backwashing and how long the backwash and settling rinse are.

The 5600 he has is a 12 day time clock and he can select the number of days between backwashes but he CAN NOT change how long the backwash and settling rinse are. That is one of the biggest reasons why the non electronic version 5600 is a bad choice for heavy mineral filters. Another reason is it is a 3/4" valve and he will not backwash his AN mineral as well as a 1" valve would.


Well that sounds like it stinks. But, even though the 1" valve, electronically controlled head is better for those reasons, won't this AN filter still get the job done to a normal standard? For example, BMWs are nicer cars then Kia's for the most part. (Even though the new Kia's are looking really nice). But they will both take you from home to work and back again.

I just want the AN filter to put my water to neutral, give me only a small drop in water pressure and eat up it's mineral at a normal rate while not dumping any of that mineral into my water supply. Will it do that?

If so, I can live with a unit that doesn't backwash and rinse as well and a unit that might not last as long and will need more mineral added sooner. Truth be told, if my filter lasts me 5 to 10 years and I only have to add mineral a few times over that period of time then I'm ok with the Kia version of the AN filter.

I have to say though, having a real world example like this and comparing models is really awesome. That's exactly what I want out of this forum. So the next buyer can go ...huh ...do I want the Kia AN filter or pay a little more and get a better one? And then have real pro v. cons list to go over. Thanks for the feedback.

Bob999
03-31-2010, 10:42 AM
Well that sounds like it stinks. But, even though the 1" valve, electronically controlled head is better for those reasons, won't this AN filter still get the job done to a normal standard? For example, BMWs are nicer cars then Kia's for the most part. (Even though the new Kia's are looking really nice). But they will both take you from home to work and back again.

I just want the AN filter to put my water to neutral, give me only a small drop in water pressure and eat up it's mineral at a normal rate while not dumping any of that mineral into my water supply. Will it do that?

If so, I can live with a unit that doesn't backwash and rinse as well and a unit that might not last as long and will need more mineral added sooner. Truth be told, if my filter lasts me 5 to 10 years and I only have to add mineral a few times over that period of time then I'm ok with the Kia version of the AN filter.

I have to say though, having a real world example like this and comparing models is really awesome. That's exactly what I want out of this forum. So the next buyer can go ...huh ...do I want the Kia AN filter or pay a little more and get a better one? And then have real pro v. cons list to go over. Thanks for the feedback.

As you correctly perceive the real question is whether the 5600 will do the job. In my opinion the answer is yes. I say that because the 3/4" valve provides adequate flow at an acceptable pressure drop to backwash the size tank you have and the standard piston provides 30 minutes of backwash. Once the valve is in service position the only difference is (again) whether the valve allows adequate flow at an acceptable pressure drop--a larger valve would have higher flow at a given pressure drop but for the size of media tank you have you might not get adequate contact time for neutralization with higher flows.

Electronic valves allow varying the cycle times--something not available on the 5600 (except by changing the piston) but if the standard cycle times work in your situation then things should be fine.

In any event you will be able to see for yourself whether the valve provides acceptable service one you get the system installed and operating.

Akpsdvan
03-31-2010, 10:47 AM
This one is wrong; The Fleck head has settings to determine how many days between backwashing and how long the backwash and settling rinse are.

The 5600 he has is a 12 day time clock and he can select the number of days between backwashes but he CAN NOT change how long the backwash and settling rinse are. That is one of the biggest reasons why the non electronic version 5600 is a bad choice for heavy mineral filters. Another reason is it is a 3/4" valve and he will not backwash his AN mineral as well as a 1" valve would.


Say What???????????????????????

Yes the standard 5600 has a pre-set time frame. There is no way of changing the Backwash time or any of the other parts of the cleaning cycle.

If all that is needed is to backwash with nothing really in the water then a neutralizer set to backwash every 2 or 3 days will keep the media from channeling or hardening up.

The SE or now SXT is even better because IT CAN get set up to have a 6 minute backwash or even out to 20 minute backwash, it can even have the rest of the cycle times added to or subtracted from.. making it just as good as the 3200 timer that is on the rest of the Fleck valve controls.

Finally the 3/4" valve will backwash the needed gallons for that size of tank.

The standard 5600 does have limits, and back washing the neutralizer media every 2-3 days works, Iron Filter for oxide iron... NO... the 2510 or 2750 or the 5600 SXT would be the first choice for that.

Gary Slusser
03-31-2010, 11:37 AM
WOW! Awesome, thanks so much for the feedback Bob999. It's much appreciated. I'm going to have to think about that pre-filter now. At this point I'm thinking of leaving it where it is and watching it like hawk for the first month or so. I have a feeling I will be playing around with other plumbing projects in the basement as well, so not a big deal.

Attached are photos of some of my drain parts. The 3/4 PVC and air-gapped end are already posted. To add to my list of things to think about are how to hook up all these things.
Thinkup... I think you will agree with me that you know nothing about this stuff, right? I'm going on a quarter century of doing it, trust me, get rid of the prefilter. You have city water and no need for the prefilter unless your water is visibly dirty/discolored.

Your 3/4" 5600 is going to reduce your pressure during backwash and you can not increase the length of time the backwash etc. can run for (as Bob mistakenly said you can), so you should not add anything before the AN filter that will reduce the pressure farther, like this prefilter you have no need for.

What you think is sand etc, probably is hardness scale or dirt coming out of the plumbing but either way your AN mineral will filter it out down to about 20 microns. You can't see particles less than 50-45 microns without a microscope.

And IF you have good pressure, the filter will backwash that stuff out of the mineral, and if not, you'll be replacing the mineral (which should never be needed) instead of just adding to it periodically. And when you add mineral, you need to backwash the filter very good (maybe 20 minutes) before adding new mineral. To do that, you put it in backwash and unplug the control valve and time it. Then you shut off your water and add mineral and turn on the water and backwash the new mineral until the water going to drain is as clear as you can get it. So use a short piece (like a foot) of opaque 5/8" OD PE drain line so you can see the water leaving the filter. Otherwise you walk to the end of your drain line at the air gap.

If you do not give up the idea of that prefilter, you will regret that decision in a few months. And by the time you know there is a problem, it's too late for the mineral.

As to the drain line... you bought Vinyl tubing, do not use it. It kinks closed very easily.

The 5600 needs a 1/2" MPT x insert (barbed) fitting and you should go the foot of opaque PE drain line I mentioned above to 3/4" PVC. Then 3/4" PVC from the Clack 3/4" MPT drain line elbow fitting to the side of a 3/4" x 3/4" x 3/4" PVC Tee in the filter drain line. No check valves. So you don't need the insert x insert x insert Tee you bought.

I previously said to install this equipment on the left of your main water line as in the first picture you posted at the beginning of the thread.... you already have it on the left side so my error, that should be on the RIGHT side of the water main line. Water main coming up from the floor and the AN filter to its right and the softener to the right of the AN filter. Then back to the water main line.

thinkup
03-31-2010, 12:00 PM
Thinkup... I think you will agree with me that you know nothing about this stuff, right? I'm going on a quarter century of doing it, trust me, get rid of the prefilter. You have city water and no need for the prefilter unless your water is visibly dirty/discolored.

Your 3/4" 5600 is going to reduce your pressure during backwash and you can not increase the length of time the backwash etc. can run for (as Bob mistakenly said you can), so you should not add anything before the AN filter that will reduce the pressure farther, like this prefilter you have no need for.

What you think is sand etc, probably is hardness scale or dirt coming out of the plumbing but either way your AN mineral will filter it out down to about 20 microns. You can't see particles less than 50-45 microns without a microscope.

And IF you have good pressure, the filter will backwash that stuff out of the mineral, and if not, you'll be replacing the mineral (which should never be needed) instead of just adding to it periodically. And when you add mineral, you need to backwash the filter very good (maybe 20 minutes) before adding new mineral. To do that, you put it in backwash and unplug the control valve and time it. Then you shut off your water and add mineral and turn on the water and backwash the new mineral until the water going to drain is as clear as you can get it. So use a short piece (like a foot) of opaque 5/8" OD PE drain line so you can see the water leaving the filter. Otherwise you walk to the end of your drain line at the air gap.

If you do not give up the idea of that prefilter, you will regret that decision in a few months. And by the time you know there is a problem, it's too late for the mineral.

As to the drain line... you bought Vinyl tubing, do not use it. It kinks closed very easily.

The 5600 needs a 1/2" MPT x insert (barbed) fitting and you should go the foot of opaque PE drain line I mentioned above to 3/4" PVC. Then 3/4" PVC from the Clack 3/4" MPT drain line elbow fitting to the side of a 3/4" x 3/4" x 3/4" PVC Tee in the filter drain line. No check valves. So you don't need the insert x insert x insert Tee you bought.

I previously said to install this equipment on the left of your main water line as in the first picture you posted at the beginning of the thread.... you already have it on the left side so my error, that should be on the RIGHT side of the water main line. Water main coming up from the floor and the AN filter to its right and the softener to the right of the AN filter. Then back to the water main line.

Well I won't say that I don't know anything about this stuff .... I've gotten this far haven't I? lol
Seriously, it goes without saying that I have nowhere near the ability or expertise that the people do here. I'm just trying to weigh who has the most expertise and all the pros v. cons at this point. I'm also stuck with the equipment that I have. Though, I can take out that pre-filter with ease. Let me play devils advocare for a moment though ...If I don't have a sand problem and decide to leave the filter in place it won't fill up correct? Won't that empty filter give me about the same pressure as having it off anyway? It's just a thought. I'm about 70% decided on taking it off at this point.

O man, and that drain line I bought .. it is already kinked! And I have almost no idea what you are suggesting for the drain line so I'll have to do a little research after I get out of work. LOL now I know what people feel like when I toss computer terms at them. Thanks for all the help and I'll post again later.

Gary Slusser
03-31-2010, 12:01 PM
Well that sounds like it stinks. But, even though the 1" valve, electronically controlled head is better for those reasons, won't this AN filter still get the job done to a normal standard? For example, BMWs are nicer cars then Kia's for the most part. (Even though the new Kia's are looking really nice). But they will both take you from home to work and back again.
My comments were based on your using a prefilter or not. Not that your 5600 won't do the job for your size AN filter. I was giving you reasons for not using the prefilter.


I just want the AN filter to put my water to neutral, give me only a small drop in water pressure and eat up it's mineral at a normal rate while not dumping any of that mineral into my water supply. Will it do that?

If so, I can live with a unit that doesn't backwash and rinse as well and a unit that might not last as long and will need more mineral added sooner. Truth be told, if my filter lasts me 5 to 10 years and I only have to add mineral a few times over that period of time then I'm ok with the Kia version of the AN filter.
Yes it should as long as you don't do something to prevent it from doing that, like installing a prefilter. The filter can last 20 years but the mineral will have t obe added to maybe annually because that depends on how much water you use, how frequently you backwash it and IF backwash is sufficient. There is a good possibility that with the prefilter it won't and you will have to replace the mineral. If needed, you will not like doing that.


I have to say though, having a real world example like this and comparing models is really awesome. That's exactly what I want out of this forum. So the next buyer can go ...huh ...do I want the Kia AN filter or pay a little more and get a better one? And then have real pro v. cons list to go over. Thanks for the feedback.
That's what everyone posting or reading forums wants. The problem here is that you have people disagreeing with me that are wrong because they have no experience in water treatment and think they know something when they don't.

Example, Bob999 said you can adjust the length of the backwash and settling rinse but you can't; your 5600 version has no means of doing that. You can look up the manual and check it out. Now he's going on about a 30 minute piston and changing a piston!! The piston has nothing to do with time, it is a valve and changes water flow direction inside the filter and nothing more. But he sounds as if he knows what he is talking about right?

Gary Slusser
03-31-2010, 12:39 PM
As you correctly perceive the real question is whether the 5600 will do the job. In my opinion the answer is yes.
No one is saying or has said that the 5600 won't do the job. The question is IF the mineral will be sufficiently backwashed (cleaned) by the control valve being used; a 5600 here that has no means of lengthening the time the backwash cycle position runs for in minutes.


I say that because the 3/4" valve provides adequate flow at an acceptable pressure drop to backwash the size tank you have and the standard piston provides 30 minutes of backwash. Once the valve is in service position the only difference is (again) whether the valve allows adequate flow at an acceptable pressure drop--a larger valve would have higher flow at a given pressure drop but for the size of media tank you have you might not get adequate contact time for neutralization with higher flows.
You are saying tank, it is the mineral in the tank Bob. AN mineral is very heavy (it is crushed LIMESTONE) and hard to lift regardless the size of the tank. And if the backwash cycle position doesn't run long enough, there will be inadequate "lift" during backwash to clean the mineral. And the length of time in backwash is critical. Not lifting the mineral for a long enough period of time will cause the mineral to inadequately do its job but more importantly, the pressure loss across the filter will increase. By the time Thinkup realizes the problem exists, the mineral will have to be replaced because it is too 'dirty' to be able to backwashed clean.


Electronic valves allow varying the cycle times--something not available on the 5600 (except by changing the piston) but if the standard cycle times work in your situation then things should be fine.
This changing the time in backwash by changing the piston stuff Bob.... what are you talking about?

The piston has absolutely nothing to do with how long a backwash or settle rinse runs for. So please explain what you are talking about and correct you error.

Bob999
03-31-2010, 12:46 PM
One of the really frustrating things about posting here is that some simply want to bash other posters. The preceding posts are good examples.

See page 8 in the Fleck 5600 manual below. It specifically discusses how the time for cycles in the filter version vary with the piston chosen.

http://www.pentairwatertreatment.com/PentairFiles/Pentair%20Water%20Treatment/Manuals/5600%20Service%20Manual%2040106.pdf

Akpsdvan
03-31-2010, 01:04 PM
That is why there are 3 pistons for the 5600 standard and a different one for the SE now the SXT 5600......

Gary Slusser
03-31-2010, 01:08 PM
Well I won't say that I don't know anything about this stuff .... I've gotten this far haven't I? lol
Yeah you're getting there but at the beginning not so much. LOL


Seriously, it goes without saying that I have nowhere near the ability or expertise that the people do here. I'm just trying to weigh who has the most expertise and all the pros v. cons at this point.
Be careful, from what Bob999 has said or refused to say here since last July, he has no experience other than owning a softener or filter and a solution feeder as a consumer.


I'm also stuck with the equipment that I have. Though, I can take out that pre-filter with ease. Let me play devils advocare for a moment though ...If I don't have a sand problem and decide to leave the filter in place it won't fill up correct? Won't that empty filter give me about the same pressure as having it off anyway? It's just a thought. I'm about 70% decided on taking it off at this point.
The point is that even empty it will rob a couple lbs of pressure and you need all you can get for AN mineral. And it's an easy choice to do away with it because you have no need for the prefilter because the AN mineral is a much better 'filter' than the one you chose.


O man, and that drain line I bought .. it is already kinked! And I have almost no idea what you are suggesting for the drain line so I'll have to do a little research after I get out of work. LOL now I know what people feel like when I toss computer terms at them. Thanks for all the help and I'll post again later.
LOL, yeah vinyl kinks just looking at it. The PE will be in a coil in a box that they pull out of and measure how much you need by the foot. It is 5/8" OD and we call it 1/2" so get the inset x 1/2 male fitting that fits 5600 and the tubing so you can't pull it off the fitting without splitting the end of the tubing with a knife where it goes on the barbed end of the fitting. The tubing is marked every 18-24" and the box should be marked. It is CTS so the hole won't be exactly 1/2", it will be smaller and require pushing it on the fitting fairly hard. You can use a foot+/- long piece on the softener valve too. Then you can see if resin gets out of the tank and/or if the water is clear during installation when you fill the tank with water with the control in the backwash position.

Gary Slusser
03-31-2010, 02:09 PM
One of the really frustrating things about posting here is that some simply want to bash other posters. The preceding posts are good examples.

See page 8 in the Fleck 5600 manual below. It specifically discusses how the time for cycles in the filter version vary with the piston chosen.

http://www.pentairwatertreatment.com/PentairFiles/Pentair%20Water%20Treatment/Manuals/5600%20Service%20Manual%2040106.pdf
You're right Bob, posting here is difficult when you post incorrect information, like this, and then refuse to accept responsibility for the error and reply with a personal attack whine.

AGAIN you are not comprehending what you are reading. The last few times it was spec sheets, now it is what choice of piston for a backwashed only filter.

So let's look at page 8. It says CYCLE TIMES and Flow Diagrams in the setup/installation section of the 5600 valve Bob. The keyword is TIMES, meaning the time you can set the TIMER for FOR WHATEVER PISTON IS IN THE CONTROL VALVE.

Bob, what causes the piston to move or stay in one position or another if not the TIMER causing the motor to come on and then shut off?

The filter here with a mechanical backwash only 5600 filter version does not allow anyone to set or change any length of TIME of any of the cycle positions REGARDLESS of what piston is in it, period.

Below is a copy of the info on page 8... see the BLACK end plug and filter piston info Bob, that will be or should be the one in his FILTER version of the stock/standard version of the 5600 he has for an AN filter. That does not allow setting the length of time any of the cycle positions run for.

You mistakenly believe he has a choice of changing the piston, he could if he bought one but how does he change the length of time for any of the cycle positions Bob? He'd need to buy a different version of the 5600, and the only choice is the SXT timer unless he was able to find an SE timer; either will require him to buy a new power head.

This page 8 info is for a dealer to order the piston he wants for whatever TIMER he is ordering for the type of filter (or softener) version of the 5600 he is selling.

Cycle Times and Flow Diagrams

1. In Service position. See Figure 4, page 10.

2. Preliminary Rinse position.
— Same as Figure 4, page 10 with standard piston (white end plug) or filter piston (black end plug).
— Eliminated with low water piston (gray end plug).

3. Backwash position.
— Same as Figure 6, page 11 with standard piston.
— 15 minutes with filter piston.
— 7 minutes with low water piston.

4. Brine Rinse position.
— Eliminated, resulting in a 50 minute pause, no water flows during this time.

5. Slow Rinse position.
— Eliminated, resulting in a 50 minute pause, no water flows during this time.

6. Second Backwash position.
— Same as Figure 9, page 12 with standard piston.
— 15 minutes with filter piston.
— 7 minutes with low water piston.

7. Settling Rinse position.
— Same as Figure 10, page 13 with standard or filter piston.
— Eliminate with low water piston.

8. Brine Tank Refill position.
— Eliminated, filter is back in service at this time.

Gary Slusser
03-31-2010, 02:16 PM
So if I'm keeping score here.

Bob999 has no clue what he is saying so I should not read anything from him
Akpsdvan is a pump and filter guy but he has no clue either and Skip Wolverton is pretty much in the same boat as Akpsdvan so if I need to know anything about filters I guess I should just ignore everyone except Gary Slusser. I think I may need a softener in this flip house so when I get to that point I guess the best thing is to contact Gary Slusser or go to his web site yes?
I suggest you determine what info is correct and what isn't and then pay attention to who is saying what and act accordingly as to your choice of a dealer to buy from.

AKpsdvan says there are three pistons for the 5600, that is correct, but it sounds as if he is agreeing with Bob999, so ask him how many there are for the stock 5600 filter version we are talking about in this thread.

Bob999
03-31-2010, 02:25 PM
I guess I now need to say that there is more than one frustration-- bashing and ignorance/ inability to read. The following is taken directly from his post:

Cycle Times and Flow Diagrams

3. Backwash position.
— Same as Figure 6, page 11 with standard piston.
— 15 minutes with filter piston.
— 7 minutes with low water piston.


6. Second Backwash position.
— Same as Figure 9, page 12 with standard piston.
— 15 minutes with filter piston.
— 7 minutes with low water piston.

Note that immediately below what the poster made red is a statement that the time is different with the low water piston.

Gary Slusser
03-31-2010, 03:12 PM
First the subject matter of page 8 of the posted manual is:

Model 5600 Backwash Filter Installation & Start-up
Procedures (Cont’d.)

I guess I now need to say that there is more than one frustration-- bashing and ignorance/ inability to read. The following is taken directly from his post:

3. Backwash position.
— Same as Figure 6, page 11 with standard piston.
— 15 minutes with filter piston.
— 7 minutes with low water piston.


6. Second Backwash position.
— Same as Figure 9, page 12 with standard piston.
— 15 minutes with filter piston.
— 7 minutes with low water piston.

Note that immediately below what the poster made red is a statement that the time is different with the low water piston.
A low water piston should not be used in an AN or other heavy mineral filter.

Bob, the control valve TIMER controls when and if the piston moves by controlling when and if the motor runs. His timer has no way to be adjusted; it is mechanical with gears and switches only. he gets to set teh time of day on the clock and how many days between backwashes only. Nothing more.

When the motor runs it moves the piston out of whatever cycle position the piston is in and into the next position.

Example, Service, the motor is off and the piston is stationary in the Service position.

When the number of days between backwashes has expired, the timer is mechanically tripped causing the motor to run.

In this case, a backwashed only filter version (without a SE or SXT timer) that trip moves the piston into the backwash cycle position.

The mechanical geared timer controls the length of time the motor is off in the backwash position and then turns the motor on and the piston is moved into the settle rinse position and the timer turns the motor off.

Then the timer gearing times the length of time for the settle rinse position and turns on the motor on when that time expires and the motor comes on and, it moves the piston into the service position.

On this 5600 a number of days goes by and the nonadjustable timer is tripped again and it turns the motor on and moves the piston into the backwash position and then eventually moves the piston into the settle rinse and back to the service position. The only way to make the valve stay in a backwash or settle rinse position is once it is in that position, you unplug the power cord or otherwise shut off power to the control valve.

The length of time will be roughly 20 minutes from Service back to Service, no matter what size tank or what mineral is in the tank. Or what gpm DLFC is used, or the color of the tank, or the color of the wall the filter is installed in front of or by on either side, or the dog's name but.... please tell me the type of power that moves your version of the piston and how that's wired up. Or does gravity somehow move the piston IYO (in your opinion)? How about magnetism, ya think there's a magnet or two somewhere in this version of the 5600 and if so, how do the magnets move the piston, is maybe one stronger than the other?

Anyway, you can believe that the piston controls the length of time in minutes it allows water to run to drain if you want to. You will be wrong but so what. BTW, the 15 minutes is the time the backwash only mechanical version of the 5600 filter control valve runs for in the backwash position.

Skip Wolverton
03-31-2010, 03:17 PM
So if I'm keeping score here.

Bob999 has no clue what he is saying so I should not read anything from him
Akpsdvan is a pump and filter guy but he has no clue either and Skip Wolverton is pretty much in the same boat as Akpsdvan so if I need to know anything about filters I guess I should just ignore everyone except Gary Slusser. I think I may need a softener in this flip house so when I get to that point I guess the best thing is to contact Gary Slusser or go to his web site yes?

LOL. I guess it's time for me to post my resume. One of us does this about once a month. so here goes. I join a Kinetico outfit as the warehouse manger in 1990. I had no clue what a softener was or how they worked. After about a year, I was promoted to service tech. You think I may have done something right? After a year as a tech, I was ask to be the service manger of an Eco outfit, Not bad for someone that does not know what he is doing, but yet I seem to be getting a lot of promotions. What gives? After 8 years I joined Texas Water as a salesman. I guess I just could not handle all those repairs that I don't know anything about. I made district manager of the Austin sales area within 9 months after posting 2 record breaking sales in a month.. Not much of a go getter am I? I left Tx in 2003 and moved to Ocala, Fl to be closer to my mother. She is in her golden years and would be the last time I get to spend time with her. Why did mother raise such an inconciderate son? I got a job as a service tech/saleman with the local Eco dealer. Went from there to an Ionics outfit to sell. Worked there for a year and left to open my own company. Now, 3 years later, I am getting calls to fix computerized units I've never seen before, but according to somewone here, I don't know how to program them. Then why would the unit work after I left? I have gained a contract to install a well known companies softeners. I am in the field daily. I see and do a lot but don't seem to learn anything according to some here. I guess that's why my customers call me back 2-3 years later. One thing I have learned after 20 years in the water treatment industry, not to pay to much mind to people that change everytime a new wigget comes out. I have seen saleman sell the new wigget and when they don't work, they leave it up to the service tech to handle the irrate customer. My guess is you should all do your homework before trusting what neg. remarks are posted on here. Some of us are here to help others, not critize those that disagree with them.

Bob999
03-31-2010, 03:27 PM
Anyway, you can believe that the piston controls the length of time in minutes it allows water to run to drain if you want to. You will be wrong but so what. BTW, the 15 minutes is the time the backwash only mechanical version of the 5600 filter control valve runs for in the backwash position.

I don't believe I ever posted that "the piston controls the length of time in minutes it allows water to run to drain" as stated by Gary Slusser. This is a familiar tactic he uses--misrepresent another posters views and then post his "correct" view.

What I actually posted was "Electronic valves allow varying the cycle times--something not available on the 5600 (except by changing the piston) " and Gary's post of the material from page 8 of the service manual for the 5600 valve shows that the backwash time varies depending on the piston used. This is fully consistent with my post and supports my post.

Enough of dealing with mud slinging and crap from a salesman who sells from a no fixed address mobile home and does not even know the important details of the merchandise he sells.

Gary Slusser
03-31-2010, 03:33 PM
Skip, is Bob999 right about the minutes a 5600 filter version without a SE or SXT timer runs for being controlled by the type of piston in the control valve or is he wrong?

I ask because you sell them and I haven't sold any 5600 in any version in like a year, plus that last one was on a softener and it was the first in a number of years after never selling one on a heavy mineral filter in all my 23 years but... I have serviced a large number of heavy mineral filters using the 5600 mechanical filter version 5600. Plus I think I'm older than you and, I may have more hair.

p.s. someday we might get around to comparing sales records and walnut plaques.

Skip Wolverton
03-31-2010, 05:01 PM
Well I won't say that I don't know anything about this stuff .... I've gotten this far haven't I? lol
Seriously, it goes without saying that I have nowhere near the ability or expertise that the people do here. I'm just trying to weigh who has the most expertise and all the pros v. cons at this point. I'm also stuck with the equipment that I have. Though, I can take out that pre-filter with ease. Let me play devils advocare for a moment though ...If I don't have a sand problem and decide to leave the filter in place it won't fill up correct? Won't that empty filter give me about the same pressure as having it off anyway? It's just a thought. I'm about 70% decided on taking it off at this point.

O man, and that drain line I bought .. it is already kinked! And I have almost no idea what you are suggesting for the drain line so I'll have to do a little research after I get out of work. LOL now I know what people feel like when I toss computer terms at them. Thanks for all the help and I'll post again later.
The purpose of a sand seperator is to remove sand or sediment. If you do not have a lot or either, nothing to worry about but make sure you keep the filter clean . Removing the sand or sediment prior to your equipment is to protect the valve from the piston or brine valve being scared. From what I see, there is nothing wrong with the installation. If you start to get flow rate problem because of the pre-filter, it may cause the AN media to cement up.

Skip Wolverton
03-31-2010, 05:36 PM
This one is wrong; The Fleck head has settings to determine how many days between backwashing and how long the backwash and settling rinse are.

The 5600 he has is a 12 day time clock and he can select the number of days between backwashes but he CAN NOT change how long the backwash and settling rinse are. That is one of the biggest reasons why the non electronic version 5600 is a bad choice for heavy mineral filters. Another reason is it is a 3/4" valve and he will not backwash his AN mineral as well as a 1" valve would.

Gary, this is where I believe you don't understand. In this case, the 5600 has a 5 gpm drain flow control and you say it will not backwash the AN "as well" as the 1" valve. Wouldn't the 1" valve have the same drain flow control, 5 gpm? If you are not flowing anymore water, how could you get a better backwash? You can not! It will be the same flow of water whether you use a 3/4" valve or a 2' valve. It's like telling me I can fill a pool up faster using a firehose vs a garden hose both of which have a flow controller in it.

Skip Wolverton
03-31-2010, 05:45 PM
No one is saying or has said that the 5600 won't do the job. The question is IF the mineral will be sufficiently backwashed (cleaned) by the control valve being used; a 5600 here that has no means of lengthening the time the backwash cycle position runs for in minutes.


You are saying tank, it is the mineral in the tank Bob. AN mineral is very heavy (it is crushed LIMESTONE) and hard to lift regardless the size of the tank. And if the backwash cycle position doesn't run long enough, there will be inadequate "lift" during backwash to clean the mineral. And the length of time in backwash is critical. Not lifting the mineral for a long enough period of time will cause the mineral to inadequately do its job but more importantly, the pressure loss across the filter will increase. By the time Thinkup realizes the problem exists, the mineral will have to be replaced because it is too 'dirty' to be able to backwashed clean.


This changing the time in backwash by changing the piston stuff Bob.... what are you talking about?

The piston has absolutely nothing to do with how long a backwash or settle rinse runs for. So please explain what you are talking about and correct you error.
Changing the piston does change the time the "backwash port" is open.

Skip Wolverton
03-31-2010, 05:59 PM
Skip, is Bob999 right about the minutes a 5600 filter version without a SE or SXT timer runs for being controlled by the type of piston in the control valve or is he wrong?

I ask because you sell them and I haven't sold any 5600 in any version in like a year, plus that last one was on a softener and it was the first in a number of years after never selling one on a heavy mineral filter in all my 23 years but... I have serviced a large number of heavy mineral filters using the 5600 mechanical filter version 5600. Plus I think I'm older than you and, I may have more hair.

p.s. someday we might get around to comparing sales records and walnut plaques.
In my opinion you are both right. By changing the piston, you are changing the time the "port is open". You can not change the amount of time the "valve" has the port open. Also Gary, the motor runs 24/7. Nothing on the 5600 turns on and off the motor.

Akpsdvan
03-31-2010, 06:40 PM
As Bugs said...

"I know that I should have taken that left turn at Albuquerque"

So has this thread.

The first question was simple by a home owner as to how to put things in , NOT the pros and cons of what he bought, but how to install and use.!

Gary Slusser
03-31-2010, 06:52 PM
I don't believe I ever posted that "the piston controls the length of time in minutes it allows water to run to drain"

What I actually posted was "Electronic valves allow varying the cycle times--something not available on the 5600 (EXCEPT BY CHANGING THE PISTON) "
Bob, what does "except by changing the piston" mean if not changing the length of the minutes the cycles run for? Were you suggesting using a different piston than the filter piston?

BTW, I didn't mention your other error, not only electronic valves allow varying the cycle times, Fleck makes mechanical control valve timers, like the 2510, that allow for changing the minutes the cycle positions run for.


Enough of dealing with mud slinging and crap from a salesman who sells from a no fixed address mobile home and does not even know the important details of the merchandise he sells.
This is a perfect example of you misrepresenting information Bob. You know I have a permanent address and that I live in our motor home, plus, you KNOW I would not sell the filter version of the mechanical 5600!

Would you want to tell me again that the Clack WS-1 CS doesn't allow changing the minutes of run time for various cycle positions as you did a week or two ago but now say "Electronic valves allow varying the cycle times

Bob999
03-31-2010, 07:04 PM
This is a perfect example of you misrepresenting information Bob. You know I have a permanent address and that I live in our motor home,

There you go again misrepresenting what I posted.

I said nothing about your permanent address or where you live.

What I posted was that YOU ARE A SALESMAN AND THAT YOU SELL FROM A NO FIXED ADDRESS MOBIL HOME.

I note that you don't deny that my statement is true.

Rather you appear to try to fuzz up the issue with misdirection and irrelevancies.

Bob999
03-31-2010, 07:10 PM
Would you want to tell me again that the Clack WS-1 CS doesn't allow changing the minutes of run time for various cycle positions as you did a week or two ago but now say "Electronic valves allow varying the cycle times

Good luck in supporting that wild allegation. It didn't happen. You are imagining it.

Bob999
03-31-2010, 07:16 PM
BTW, I didn't mention your other error, not only electronic valves allow varying the cycle times, Fleck makes mechanical control valve timers, like the 2510, that allow for changing the minutes the cycle positions run for.


This is another example of misrepresentation or ignorance/inability to read.

In commenting on non-electonic valves in this thread I posted only about the Fleck 5600.

I did not mention or allude to other electromechanically controlled valves.

thinkup
03-31-2010, 07:28 PM
HOLY COW ...LOL I just got home and quickly read all that I missed out on today. To be honest I'll have to re-read it all a few times to wrap my head around it all.

Ok, back to work ...well not tonight but in my head anyway .... My thought process right about now is to leave everything as I have it setup now while adding some sort of funnel at the air gap to prevent possible spillage and do as Gary suggested and take back the 1/2 tubing I have and get something more rugged. I can't remember who made the other suggestion, but I like the idea of using the more rugged clear tubing and then going into the PVC on the wall. I'm going to have to read all the suggestions one more time on that one too. Then up the wall with 3/4 PVC and then down the basement in 3/4 PVC to the drain line for the septic. Should be a blast. O man and does that purple PVC glue stuff STINK!

Then once I have it all setup like this .... we can tackle these pistons and backwash settings and the softener. Don't forget I have an RO system lying around freaking me out too ROFL!

This is my first home water filter setup and I'm ok with getting it all going and then having to make changes later. I just don't want to eff up my plumbing, get mineral or resin or crap in the lines, screw up the drain, set the house on fire, poison myself, or have no water pressure left to shower. OOOoooo, I do have a tankless hot water heater as well. If this pre-filter doesn't end up having a good home in the front of everything ...might it make sense to put it in front of the tankless hot water heater? I don't have any filter in front of that now.

With any luck, my goal is to crank this system up this weekend!! Even though there is some craziness going on in here, I still want to thank everyone for making this forum a lively one! We'll get this all going one way or another and then we can all debate on the best settings I can get out of my equipment. Thanks guys!

Akpsdvan
03-31-2010, 07:44 PM
PVC glue and cleaner... AIR FLOW.... AIR FLOW..... or you will get Higher than a kite in high winds..... :D
The neutralizer should have came with a back wash flow control... say 5 gpm, if that is the case then there should be no problem about the media going out the back wash line as long as there is 17" of space between the media and the bottom of the threads at the top of the tank.

Softener unit is much like the AN or neutralizer... head space or clear room between media and bottom of threads at the top of the tank and a flow control of say 3 gpm... and all should be good.

No need to change the piston on the 5600, just have it clean or cycle every 2 or 3 days and that should be great... you have little to no iron that is going to challenge the media .... just low ph and Hardness...

If you no longer need the Rusco spin down,, Sell it to some one that does...

Gary Slusser
04-01-2010, 12:30 AM
Gary, this is where I believe you don't understand. In this case, the 5600 has a 5 gpm drain flow control and you say it will not backwash the AN "as well" as the 1" valve. Wouldn't the 1" valve have the same drain flow control, 5 gpm? If you are not flowing anymore water, how could you get a better backwash? You can not! It will be the same flow of water whether you use a 3/4" valve or a 2' valve. It's like telling me I can fill a pool up faster using a firehose vs a garden hose both of which have a flow controller in it.
I think Thinkup has a 1 cuft AN filter and a 1.5 cuft softener. I suggest the filter has a larger than a 5 gpm DLFC but, less pressure will take longer to raise the bed to get to 5 gpm than higher pressure would and until the bed is lifted sufficiently you may not be getting to full flow because of the pressure loss in the compacted bed. And then you can't increase the length of time the backwash runs for so the backwash won't be at full bed expansion for very long before the valve stops the backwash cycle. When I said 1" valve I was referring to the Clack WS-1 I suggested would have been a better choice than the 5600.

Also, I do not believe any dealer would use any piston other than the standard backwash only filter piston for the 5600 on an AN filter.

Bob999, I have not called you any names or commented about where you live or what you do for a living or how you say whatever. I commented on what you said in the context that you said it and with only one exception, I quoted your statement that I commented on. If that upsets you that's on you.

Bob999
04-01-2010, 05:18 AM
Also, I do not believe any dealer would use any piston other than the standard backwash only filter piston for the 5600 on an AN filter.


I can't speak for what "any dealer" would or may do. It is pure speculation.

What I can speak to is the capabilities of the Fleck 5600 when used in a filter application. If the "filter piston" is used then there is a total of 30 minutes of backwash. If the "low water piston" is installed then there is a total of 15 minutes backwash. I think the name "low water piston" is used because it reduces the water used for backwash by half. If the DLFC button is 5 gpm then 75 gallons of water is used for backwash with the low water piston and 150 gallons of water is used for backwash with the filter piston. There is further water use reduction with the low water piston because the preliminary and settling rinse are eliminated.

Now just because I am pointing out the capabilities/options available for the valve it does not mean I am advocating use of those capabilities/options.

Skip Wolverton
04-01-2010, 05:51 AM
I think Thinkup has a 1 cuft AN filter and a 1.5 cuft softener. I suggest the filter has a larger than a 5 gpm DLFC but, less pressure will take longer to raise the bed to get to 5 gpm than higher pressure would and until the bed is lifted sufficiently you may not be getting to full flow because of the pressure loss in the compacted bed. And then you can't increase the length of time the backwash runs for so the backwash won't be at full bed expansion for very long before the valve stops the backwash cycle. When I said 1" valve I was referring to the Clack WS-1 I suggested would have been a better choice than the 5600.
Now please explain to me how you increase the pressure of the water by using a 1" valve.

Wally Hays
04-01-2010, 11:13 AM
I'm not a water filter expert though I do occasionally install them. Anhway, increasing the size of the valve, pipe or whatever does not increase pressure, only flow. After having slogged through this whole mess I am left wondering just how much useful advice has been left for the OP.

Comments on the installation: Nice job, looks good. The only thing that is really wrong would be the unvented trap your drain is running into. Not only is it unvented, it's also an S trap and the 3 x 1 1/2 san tee should not be installed horizontally. However I note that it is not the only wrong fitting installed there.

Gary Slusser
04-01-2010, 07:58 PM
I can't speak for what "any dealer" would or may do. It is pure speculation.

What I can speak to is the capabilities of the Fleck 5600 when used in a filter application. If the "filter piston" is used then there is a total of 30 minutes of backwash. If the "low water piston" is installed then there is a total of 15 minutes backwash. I think the name "low water piston" is used because it reduces the water used for backwash by half. If the DLFC button is 5 gpm then 75 gallons of water is used for backwash with the low water piston and 150 gallons of water is used for backwash with the filter piston. There is further water use reduction with the low water piston because the preliminary and settling rinse are eliminated.

Now just because I am pointing out the capabilities/options available for the valve it does not mean I am advocating use of those capabilities/options.
Yeah you're right, you can't say what dealers would do because you are not a dealer. And your last sentence there contradicts what you've actually done in this thread.

Since you aren't advocating anything, I see most of your posts in this thread as simply wanting to be confrontational.

I say all that because I see that yesterday you went back to edit post #65 where you first made the incorrect statement that got us into this discussion where all you've been doing is playing denial word games since.

Here is an exact copy of that statement from my post containing a quote of it; The Fleck head has settings to determine how many days between backwashing and how long the backwash and settling rinse are.

Here is the edited copy, the ____________ shows the corrected part.

******************
The Fleck head has settings to determine how many days between backwashing. The Fleck 5600 does not have adjustable backwash but with the standard piston the backwash time of 30 minutes combined for the first and second backwash should be adequate. See my comments in red above.
Last edited by Bob999; Yesterday at 10:23 AM. Reason: Correction
*******************

That correction hacked up the thread Bob because no one will see your error or understand anything said about it later except your denial word games posts. It tells me a lot about your character too.

Akpsdvan
04-01-2010, 08:13 PM
Yeah you're right, you can't say what dealers would do because you are not a dealer. And your last sentence there contradicts what you've actually done in this thread.

Since you aren't advocating anything, I see most of your posts in this thread as simply wanting to be confrontational.

I say all that because I see that yesterday you went back to edit post #65 where you first made the incorrect statement that got us into this discussion where all you've been doing is playing denial word games since.

Here is an exact copy of that statement from my post containing a quote of it; The Fleck head has settings to determine how many days between backwashing and how long the backwash and settling rinse are.

Here is the edited copy, the ____________ shows the corrected part.

******************
The Fleck head has settings to determine how many days between backwashing. The Fleck 5600 does not have adjustable backwash but with the standard piston the backwash time of 30 minutes combined for the first and second backwash should be adequate. See my comments in red above.
Last edited by Bob999; Yesterday at 10:23 AM. Reason: Correction
*******************

That correction hacked up the thread Bob because no one will see your error or understand anything said about it later except your denial word games posts. It tells me a lot about your character too.

And this helps the starter of this thread HOW????

Gary Slusser
04-01-2010, 08:26 PM
Now please explain to me how you increase the pressure of the water by using a 1" valve.
A 1" valve has less pressure loss than a 3/4" valve. If there is say 3-4 psi loss in a 3/4" valve and say 1-2 psi loss in a 1" valve, there is more psi available with the 1" valve. And 1-2 psi more will lift the bed higher in less time than 1-2 psi less will and that relates to a more successful backwash of the mineral. And that was the reason for the comment.

Wally Hays, see the above.

Gary Slusser
04-01-2010, 10:06 PM
And this helps the starter of this thread HOW????
My thinking is that he gets to see who and what is meant to help him and those that he wants to help learn from this now and in the future.

My questions to you, why do you have a problem with it when it doesn't concern you in anyway and, how does your question help the OP and/or others that read this now or in the future?

Wally Hays
04-02-2010, 02:59 AM
A 1 to 2 lb difference in pressure will not make a difference in lifting the bed. We are nitpicking here for no reason.

Skip Wolverton
04-02-2010, 03:38 AM
A 1" valve has less pressure loss than a 3/4" valve. If there is say 3-4 psi loss in a 3/4" valve and say 1-2 psi loss in a 1" valve, there is more psi available with the 1" valve. And 1-2 psi more will lift the bed higher in less time than 1-2 psi less will and that relates to a more successful backwash of the mineral. And that was the reason for the comment.

Wally Hays, see the above.
Wouldn't the pressure loss be due to exceeding the flow rate of the valve? With a 5 GPM DLFC, you are not exceeding the flow rate of a valve which means the same pressure with both valves.

Wally Hays
04-02-2010, 05:02 AM
1032210323I know with everything else you are considering that you probably don't want to consider these things but I felt compelled to point them out for yours and anyone else'es benefit.

Bob999
04-02-2010, 05:37 AM
Yeah you're right, you can't say what dealers would do because you are not a dealer. And your last sentence there contradicts what you've actually done in this thread.

Since you aren't advocating anything, I see most of your posts in this thread as simply wanting to be confrontational.

I say all that because I see that yesterday you went back to edit post #65 where you first made the incorrect statement that got us into this discussion where all you've been doing is playing denial word games since.

Here is an exact copy of that statement from my post containing a quote of it; The Fleck head has settings to determine how many days between backwashing and how long the backwash and settling rinse are.

Here is the edited copy, the ____________ shows the corrected part.

******************
The Fleck head has settings to determine how many days between backwashing. The Fleck 5600 does not have adjustable backwash but with the standard piston the backwash time of 30 minutes combined for the first and second backwash should be adequate. See my comments in red above.
Last edited by Bob999; Yesterday at 10:23 AM. Reason: Correction
*******************

That correction hacked up the thread Bob because no one will see your error or understand anything said about it later except your denial word games posts. It tells me a lot about your character too.

The post above says a lot about the character and motives of the poster in my opinion. He is more interested in bashing other posters than seeing correct information posted on this board.

He is now bashing me because I corrected an incorrect post. So be it--it further reveals who/what he is.

I think the real reason for the post is to divert attention from all the misleading information he posted in this same thread after I pointed out that the backwash time of the Fleck 5600 varies with different pistons. Of course he hasn't admitted this and hasn't clarified his misleading statements.

thinkup
04-02-2010, 06:23 AM
I'm way backed up on DIY projects now because of the day job. I work in IT and the past two weeks have been disasters!

Anyway, I just skimmed that last few post and things are looking lively like normal. I love it!! I love all the help. Even though the house has been a problem since day one!

Long story short. This is my first home. We had it "inspected" before we bought but in hind sight the inspector and the lady who helped us buy it were probably working together. Fireplace, boiler, roof, septic, electric, radon, baseboards, insulation and on and on have been problems that were missed during the inspection. So now it seems I may have plumbing issues!! Great. Ok, I'm going to fix em. I'm going to just crank it all out while I'm down there working on this stuff. I'm running electric for the gear this weekend and doing the drain line again. I"ll post more photos as well and we can get back to talking about pistons and rods and whozel nozzles and mineral lifting and all that too.

When this post is done and after everyone helps me get all this gear together, I'm going to write up a nice long list to cover it all for future DIYers. Hopefully I'll get some editing help on that too. That should be interesting ROFL. Thanks guys for all the help.

Gary Slusser
04-02-2010, 09:23 AM
A 1 to 2 lb difference in pressure will not make a difference in lifting the bed. We are nitpicking here for no reason.
You sound as if you know nothing about heavy mineral filters and mistakenly believe you get the gpm flow rate of the DLFC immediately; in this example 5 gpm. DLFCs are usually rated in tenths of a gpm and a higher psi will lift the bed faster than a lower psi and the length of time that the bed is completely lifted is critical to successful backwashing of AN or any other heavy mineral. The faster that happens teh better and every psi counts.

And your mark up of all the things 'wrong' with the basement plumbing is overlooking the fact that that plumbing, or at least the sewer stack is grandfathered to the codes in effect when the house was built or the plumbing was added/changed years ago. Thinkup may not have done all the PVC plumbing. IMO he did the stand pipe and trap for the drain line from his filter and softener and ran the 3/4" PVC to it only.

Gary Slusser
04-02-2010, 09:37 AM
He is now bashing me because I corrected an incorrect post. So be it--it further reveals who/what he is.
I'm pointing out that you sneaked back to page 5 (was it?) in post #65 and corrected the error you made but until now when I point it out, you had not admitted making any error, actually you continued to deny you made any error over the next 3 pages of an 8 page thread.


I pointed out that the backwash time of the Fleck 5600 varies with different pistons.
Which has nothing to do with this AN filter because no dealer that knows what they are doing would use any piston other than the filter piston in a heavy mineral filter because the other pistons are normally used in a water softener version of the 5600.

Wally Hays
04-02-2010, 09:42 AM
Thank you for the criticism, I will keep it in my special file.

Actually, no, bad plumbing is never "grandfathered" and as soon as he cut into the lateral he is obliged to bring those other things up to code. Had he pulled a permit to pipe the drain, the inspector would have clarified that issue for him. furthermore I only point thow things out because they are common mistakes made by people that are not familiar with the code and I feel it would be a good thing if others can profit from the lesson. Again, thanks for your concern.

Bob999
04-02-2010, 09:44 AM
Which has nothing to do with this AN filter because no dealer that knows what they are doing would use any piston other than the filter piston in a heavy mineral filter because the other pistons are normally used in a water softener version of the 5600.


Perhaps you can explain why Fleck sells the low flow piston and lists it on Page 8 of the manual that is describing the use of the valve in a filter application. I very much doubt that Fleck would offer the piston if someone is not buying it. Now I can't prove that statement any more than you can prove your statements about any dealers.

Lets just agree that we disagree and move on.


STOP THE BASHING!!!

Gary Slusser
04-02-2010, 09:50 AM
Thank you for the criticism, I will keep it in my special file.

Actually, no, bad plumbing is never "grandfathered" and as soon as he cut into the lateral he is obliged to bring those other things up to code. Had he pulled a permit to pipe the drain, the inspector would have clarified that issue for him. furthermore I only point thow things out because they are common mistakes made by people that are not familiar with the code and I feel it would be a good thing if others can profit from the lesson. Again, thanks for your concern.
He is in NY, what code is he under and what did it say when that plumbing in question was done and more than likely inspected?

I assume we are in agreement that more psi lifts the mineral to total bed expansion sooner than a lower psi can.

Bob999
04-02-2010, 09:50 AM
I'm pointing out that you sneaked back to page 5 (was it?) in post #65 and corrected the error you made but until now when I point it out, you had not admitted making any error, actually you continued to deny you made any error over the next 3 pages of an 8 page thread.

There was nothing sneaky about what I did. The post was labeled as being edited with the date and time the change was made as well as notation that the reason for the change was a correction.

STOP THE BASHING!!!

thinkup
04-02-2010, 10:37 AM
Yes, the only place I cut into the PVC was where you can see all the purple. I'm going to look into that now and the other stuff as well. I live in a little village and I'm sure things have been here for years that are not up to code. Don't get me started on how every electrical connection in the house was made with tape only with not a single wire nut to be found!!

So that leaves me with .... what do I need to do now to get this system I have now up and running to it's best possible ability?

Gary Slusser
04-02-2010, 10:37 AM
Perhaps you can explain why Fleck sells the low flow piston and lists it on Page 8 of the manual that is describing the use of the valve in a filter application. I very much doubt that Fleck would offer the piston if someone is not buying it. Now I can't prove that statement any more than you can prove your statements about any dealers.

Lets just agree that we disagree and move on.


STOP THE BASHING!!!
I'm glad to explain it to you. Various piston choices are used for various filter applications. Example, a low water use piston could be used for a carbon filter on city water used to remove chlorine but not on a heavy mineral like this AN filter or a mixed bed turbidity, or regenerated greensand, Pyrolox etc. filter.

No I'm not going to agree to disagree when you are wrong because you have no experience in selling or servicing water treatment equipment of any kind; except possibly your own equipment while you pretend you know this stuff because you've read spec sheets or a manual.

And especially when you continue to deny any errors and you have corrected the original post containing the error and then in the next 50 some posts over a couple days you don't post anything about correcting the error... while you get into playing word games and then get into personal attacks and whine that I'm bashing you.

Wally Hays
04-02-2010, 10:51 AM
As a general rule, all traps need vents. In other words, every time you go down with waste, you need to go up with a vent. It could be a mechanical vent, or it could be a pipe tied into the house vents. As for the connecting Sanitary Tee. You can not install them horizontally (flat) for drainage purposes. They should have been wye. You should always check with your building inspector when cutting into the DWV or water supply piping.

Furthermore I do not believe that the 1 to 2lb difference in incoming pressure will have any effect at all on the equipment that Thinkup has selected and I believe that though perhaps not optimal, his equipment will perform to his satisfaction for many years.

Gary Slusser
04-02-2010, 10:55 AM
There was nothing sneaky about what I did. The post was labeled as being edited with the date and time the change was made as well as notation that the reason for the change was a correction.

STOP THE BASHING!!!
"Correction" can mean anything. You specifically deleted the error and added text making it look as if the error never happened and the added text makes it look like you know what you're talking about and... all the following posts mentioning your error look baseless.

Had you left the error there and/or corrected it there and then mentioned in a followup post that you corrected it there, I'd be applauding your honesty.

Bob999
04-02-2010, 11:13 AM
I'm glad to explain it to you. Various piston choices are used for various filter applications. Example, a low water use piston could be used for a carbon filter on city water used to remove chlorine but not on a heavy mineral like this AN filter or a mixed bed turbidity, or regenerated greensand, Pyrolox etc. filter.


So now you have changed your story--are you going to post a correction? Specifically, you posted:


This changing the time in backwash by changing the piston stuff Bob.... what are you talking about?
The piston has absolutely nothing to do with how long a backwash or settle rinse runs for. So please explain what you are talking about and correct you error.


Previously you inferred that I didn't know what I was talking about when I noted that the backwash time could be changed by changing the piston. Now you acknowledge that I was correct.

As to the matter of using a low flow piston on an AN filter--I never said that it should be used on an AN filter. This is just another case of your making up what another poster said and then acting like you have corrected an error.

What I posted was:


Electronic valves allow varying the cycle times--something not available on the 5600 (except by changing the piston) but if the standard cycle times work in your situation then things should be fine.

Gary Slusser
04-02-2010, 11:30 AM
As a general rule, all traps need vents. In other words, every time you go down with waste, you need to go up with a vent. It could be a mechanical vent, or it could be a pipe tied into the house vents. As for the connecting Sanitary Tee. You can not install them horizontally (flat) for drainage purposes. They should have been wye. You should always check with your building inspector when cutting into the DWV or water supply piping.
Wally, are you saying or meaning to implying that Thinkup's 1/2" flow of discharge water from his filter and softener going into 3/4" PVC and then through an air gap into that 1.5" or 2" stand pipe every few days during the middle of the night won't drain OK?

Wally Hays
04-02-2010, 11:35 AM
No, I am saying that the drain and trap do not meet code. We have those pesky things for a reason if nothing more than to confuse people. It would seem specious to ignore such things on a forum that primarily gives plumbing advice don't you think?

Gary Slusser
04-02-2010, 11:57 AM
No, I am saying that the drain and trap do not meet code. We have those pesky things for a reason if nothing more than to confuse people. It would seem specious to ignore such things on a forum that primarily gives plumbing advice don't you think?
No common sense and this confusion you mention is why many DIYer type people don't follow codes but what is the reasons for this type Tee not being allowed, or installed correctly and a vent being required?

I see you added to the post I just replied to, here's a copy of what you added and my reply;

****************
Furthermore I do not believe that the 1 to 2lb difference in incoming pressure will have any effect at all on the equipment that Thinkup has selected and I believe that though perhaps not optimal, his equipment will perform to his satisfaction for many years.
***************
You had previously said in your first post in this thread that you have installed some water treatment equipment but you were no expert, or something very close to that.

Yet here you are disagreeing with me that to obtain full DLFC gpm flow in heavy filter mineral takes time and needs all the pressure it can get to successfully backwash it to total bed expansion and doing that ASAP is critical. So what do you base your opinion that 1-2 psi more will not make a difference on? Are you aware that full DLFC gpm and total bed expansion may not happen until the last couple minutes of the backwash cycle position run time?

Gary Slusser
04-02-2010, 12:14 PM
As to the matter of using a low flow piston on an AN filter--I never said that it should be used on an AN filter. This is just another case of your making up what another poster said and then acting like you have corrected an error.

What I posted was:
You implied that Thinkup could change his piston to get more time ion backwash. Here in red is what you originally said in post #65 and in black is my reply to that statement;
*****************
This one is wrong; The Fleck head has settings to determine how many days between backwashing and how long the backwash and settling rinse are.

The 5600 he has is a 12 day time clock and he can select the number of days between backwashes but he CAN NOT change how long the backwash and settling rinse are.
*************

Something else you told Thinkup although you've said you didn't suggest/imply he do it;

****************
http://www.terrylove.com/forums/../images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Bob999
Electronic valves allow varying the cycle times--something not available on the 5600 (except by changing the piston) but if the standard cycle times work in your situation then things should be fine.
***************

p.s. those 30 minutes in backwash you mentioned in your correction, there is a number of minutes long pause between them and the flow to drain stops during that pause allowing the bed to settle from whatever amount of expansion it had attained. And 15 minutes may not be sufficient for total bed expansion. The second 15 minutes may not be sufficient either.

Wally Hays
04-02-2010, 12:27 PM
No common sense and this confusion you mention is why many DIYer type people don't follow codes but what is the reasons for this type Tee not being allowed, or installed correctly and a vent being required?

The reason we vent traps is to keep them from siphoning and to maintain a trap seal. Traps can siphon for a number of reasons, positive and negative pressure being the underlying cause. Sanitary Tee's can not be used for drainage in the horizontal position because the flow is not directional in that position. No knowledgeable plumber would install a san tee horizontally for waste.

I see you added to the post I just replied to, here's a copy of what you added and my reply;

****************
Furthermore I do not believe that the 1 to 2lb difference in incoming pressure will have any effect at all on the equipment that Thinkup has selected and I believe that though perhaps not optimal, his equipment will perform to his satisfaction for many years.
***************
You had previously said in your first post in this thread that you have installed some water treatment equipment but you were no expert, or something very close to that.

Yet here you are disagreeing with me that to obtain full DLFC gpm flow in heavy filter mineral takes time and needs all the pressure it can get to successfully backwash it to total bed expansion and doing that ASAP is critical. So what do you base your opinion that 1-2 psi more will not make a difference on? Are you aware that full DLFC gpm and total bed expansion may not happen until the last couple minutes of the backwash cycle position run time?

Try to think of it as a difference of opinion. I do not believe that a 1 to 2 lb difference from incoming pressure is going to be a problem, do you? and if so do you have evidence or proof to back it up?

Bob999
04-02-2010, 12:34 PM
You implied that Thinkup could change his piston to get more time ion backwash. Here in red is what you originally said in post #65 and in black is my reply to that statement;


That is your opinion. I think you are wrong. It is not what I said. You are again making things up and then bashing an the basis of your incorrect interpretation of the post.

Bob999
04-02-2010, 12:38 PM
This one is wrong; [B][COLOR=red]The Fleck head has settings to determine how many days between backwashing and how long the backwash and settling rinse are.


I corrected that 2 days ago. So why do you keep reposting it? Do you think you are somehow making a point by continually going over the same thing?

I have acknowledged that my original post was incorrect and posted correct information.

If you raise this again you are simply attacking me in violation of the rules of this board.

Gary Slusser
04-02-2010, 12:57 PM
Try to think of it as a difference of opinion. I do not believe that a 1 to 2 lb difference from incoming pressure is going to be a problem, do you? and if so do you have evidence or proof to back it up?
Please learn how to quote and reply to a quote correctly.

Here is what I asked you about the specific Tee in Thinkup's drain line and your reply;
**************
what is the reasons for this type Tee not being allowed, or installed correctly and a vent being required?

The reason we vent traps is to keep them from siphoning and to maintain a trap seal. Traps can siphon for a number of reasons, positive and negative pressure being the underlying cause. Sanitary Tee's can not be used for drainage in the horizontal position because the flow is not directional in that position. No knowledgeable plumber would install a san tee horizontally for waste.
**************
You generalize but don't get specific to this Tee etc.as to whether it will drain the water flow or not. I suspect that's because you don't want to admit that it will drain that flow rate and volume just fine. If I'm wrong please correct me.

Yes I have seen AN and other heavy mineral beds clump and otherwise fail because of improper backwashing and the cure is a few minutes more time in backwash OR checking and adjusting the air precharge up in a well pump pressure tank by a few lbs of air pressure or by adjusting the pump switch cutin and cutout up a few lbs higher or adjusting the air precharge and switch both up higher.

It sounds as if you have no experience in that type troubleshooting or service on heavy mineral filters.

Wally Hays
04-02-2010, 01:03 PM
Did I generalize? I think what I said was that the tee and trap arrangement did not meet code. Whole bunches of things work that are not done right. I am sure you have seen many AN filters clump up but do you really think a 1 or 2lb difference in pressure will cause it too? As for my level of experience let's just say that we are all continually learning new things.

Gary Slusser
04-02-2010, 01:33 PM
I corrected that 2 days ago.

I have acknowledged that my original post was incorrect and posted correct information.

If you raise this again you are simply attacking me in violation of the rules of this board.
Thank you. I'm glad I could help you do the right thing.

Gary Slusser
04-02-2010, 02:07 PM
Did I generalize? I think what I said was that the tee and trap arrangement did not meet code. Whole bunches of things work that are not done right. I am sure you have seen many AN filters clump up but do you really think a 1 or 2lb difference in pressure will cause it too? As for my level of experience let's just say that we are all continually learning new things.
Yes I think you generalized because you actually said; Originally Posted by Wally Hays As a general rule, all traps need vents....

And since bunches of things not to code "work" as you say, help Thinkup out here, do you think this Tee etc. will work for him or not?

Yes over time a couple lbs less water pressure can make a big difference by causing incomplete backwashing, channelization and clumping problems but more important is dirt build up in the bed which prevents the mineral from buffering the acid in the water and premature replacement of the whole bed.

Do you agree with me that it is easier to listen and learn from others that have experience in doiing 'things' you're attempting to do than it is to go out and spend your time, effort and money to make your own mistakes to learn the same things?

Bob999
04-02-2010, 02:09 PM
Thank you. I'm glad I could help you do the right thing.

So now you are taking credit for other peoples actions. As I said I corrected my post two days ago and you have continued to bash me for two days after I corrected it.
So now you edit my posts that you are replying to to substantively change what I said.

You have demonstrated that you are one very unscroupulous individual.

What I actually posted was:

I corrected that 2 days ago. So why do you keep reposting it? Do you think you are somehow making a point by continually going over the same thing? (emphasis added)

I have acknowledged that my original post was incorrect and posted correct information.

If you raise this again you are simply attacking me in violation of the rules of this board.

Wally Hays
04-02-2010, 04:54 PM
Yes I think you generalized because you actually said; Originally Posted by Wally Hays As a general rule, all traps need vents....

That's not a generalization it is the code. All traps need vents

And since bunches of things not to code "work" as you say, help Thinkup out here, do you think this Tee etc. will work for him or not?

I don't know how to say this with any more clarity. I never said it will not work, I said it does not meet code. Am I missing something or are you?

Yes over time a couple lbs less water pressure can make a big difference by causing incomplete backwashing, channelization and clumping problems but more important is dirt build up in the bed which prevents the mineral from buffering the acid in the water and premature replacement of the whole bed.

But all water systems vary in pressure throughout the day and depending on use. Most residential systems don't even have a gauge that is accurate enough to worry about 2lbs.

Do you agree with me that it is easier to listen and learn from others that have experience in doing 'things' you're attempting to do than it is to go out and spend your time, effort and money to make your own mistakes to learn the same things?

Yes indeed, and that is why I pointed out the code errors in the drainage piping so that others will hopefully not make the same mistakes.

Gary Slusser
04-03-2010, 09:42 AM
So now you are taking credit for other peoples actions.
No, I'm saying that I helped you do the right thing which was to finally mention that you had corrected your error days ago and to finally admit that you had made the error that for days and 3 pages of posts afterward you had been denying making that or any error.


As I said I corrected my post two days ago and you have continued to bash me for two days after I corrected it.
Yes I kept mentioning the error you failed to tell anyone about after you deleted it and replaced the wrong statement with correct info.


So now you edit my posts that you are replying to to substantively change what I said.
Yes you did correct the error as if it never happened and the only way anyone would know you made the error is due to my quoting it when I said you were wrong and identified the error. And unless those of us involved in the thread went back and saw your correction of the error, that delay allowed you to continue to deny you made the error. Shame on you but....

No, I didn't change anything you said when I edited out of the quote what I wasn't replying to. What I quoted is letter for letter what you said and in the order you said it. Well that's unless you have gone back now and changed/edited the original, as you did with your incorrect info (error) in post #65.


You have demonstrated that you are one very unscroupulous individual.
Since I caught you being "unscroupulous", please show us where you think I have been "unscroupulous", because your saying I am doesn't make it so.

Gary Slusser
04-03-2010, 10:39 AM
Sorry, I still say that your As a general rule, all traps need vents.... is a generalization.


Yes indeed, and that is why I pointed out the code errors in the drainage piping so that others will hopefully not make the same mistakes.
I think you are mistakenly thinking that a DIYer did that plumbing.

The home owner and the OP of this thread told you he did not do that work and that all he did was add the trap and stand pipe. He also said he bought the house recently and has no problems with the drain system and he had a home inspector inspect it before buying it and none of this was mentioned as not being to code. I can't see any house inspector making that kind of serious error.

And now you have told him that he has to redo it all now when he installs his new water filter and softener....

Wally Hays
04-03-2010, 10:56 AM
Sorry, I still say that your As a general rule, all traps need vents.... is a generalization.

No, it's not my rule, every code in this country requires traps to be vented one way or another.


I think you are mistakenly thinking that a DIYer did that plumbing.

We had already established that the only thing the OP did was cut in the san tee and the trap. No clue who did the rest, I only pointed out the code errors there and they are code violations no and's if's or but's about it.

The home owner and the OP of this thread told you he did not do that work and that all he did was add the trap and stand pipe. He also said he bought the house recently and has no problems with the drain system and he had a home inspector inspect it before buying it and none of this was mentioned as not being to code. I can't see any house inspector making that kind of serious error.

Well, apparently the home inspector is not up to speed when it comes to illegal use of fittings and traps. What more can I say here. I can print the code and commentary if you would like.

And now you have told him that he has to redo it all now when he installs his new water filter and softener....

I did not even once tell him that he had to re-do anything. What I said was that had he applied for the proper permit and had he had the installation inspected the code inspector would have made him change those things that do not meet code. What I really don't understand is why you want to make an issue out of what any licensed plumber knows is bad plumbing.

Gary Slusser
04-03-2010, 12:32 PM
I did not even once tell him that he had to re-do anything. What I said was that had he applied for the proper permit and had he had the installation inspected the code inspector would have made him change those things that do not meet code. What I really don't understand is why you want to make an issue out of what any licensed plumber knows is bad plumbing.
I don't recall your mentioning what you say you told him about a permit but I do know what his reply to you was, here is a copy;
*************
So now it seems I may have plumbing issues!! Great. Ok, I'm going to fix em. I'm going to just crank it all out while I'm down there working on this stuff. I'm running electric for the gear this weekend and doing the drain line again.
*************

IMO you are causing him confusion and additional stress that he doesn't need. For what? That plumbing has been working without problems for probably many years and you say it will work for his water treatment equipment drain.

And now you're getting into not understanding why I'm making an issue out of what a licensed plumber knows is bad plumbing.... You also say you're getting beat up in this thread in your Help me out here guys thread you started about this plumbing in the plumbing forum.

This thread is 10 pages and 120 posts long, started 2/27/2010 which is 5 weeks ago, and your first post is #107 on page 8 and mostly all you have done is to be critical and disagreeable with things that I have said; and it started in your first post. And personally I see confrontation and a somewhat anti DIYer attitude in your posts about codes rather than anything helpful for the OP.

Bob999
04-03-2010, 12:40 PM
No, I'm saying that I helped you do the right thing which was to finally mention that you had corrected your error days ago and to finally admit that you had made the error that for days and 3 pages of posts afterward you had been denying making that or any error.


Yes I kept mentioning the error you failed to tell anyone about after you deleted it and replaced the wrong statement with correct info.


Yes you did correct the error as if it never happened and the only way anyone would know you made the error is due to my quoting it when I said you were wrong and identified the error. And unless those of us involved in the thread went back and saw your correction of the error, that delay allowed you to continue to deny you made the error. Shame on you but....

No, I didn't change anything you said when I edited out of the quote what I wasn't replying to. What I quoted is letter for letter what you said and in the order you said it. Well that's unless you have gone back now and changed/edited the original, as you did with your incorrect info (error) in post #65.


Since I caught you being "unscroupulous", please show us where you think I have been "unscroupulous", because your saying I am doesn't make it so.

I listed two examples in the post you just filabustered about. Two more examples:
Your constant bashing: and,
you have not yet corrected your errors in this thread and acknowledged that you posted misleading/erroneous information.

But, I suppose it is what is to be expected from a salesman who sells from a no fixed address mobile home.

Wally Hays
04-03-2010, 12:41 PM
This is an april fools joke right? You have to be kidding. This is a PLUMBING forum is it not? I did not confuse anyone including the poster. The poster wants to have things done right and he is willing and able to do them that way when given good advice. There is NOTHING anti DIY about pointing out things that are not to code anymore than your posts about the length of his connections. And I have not been critical of anything you said other than I do not believe that 1 or 2 lbs of water pressure will make a difference. That's not criticism, it's my opinion or am I not allowed to have one? Furthermore Terry himself acknowledges that the drainage is a mess. What is so wrong with having things done right? I occasionally get a hole or a tear in the fabric of my Citabria. I carry a roll of duct tape for just those occasions. But you can bet your last dollar than when I get her home the hole gets fixed the right way.

And you know what? I don't see the word MODERATOR under your name.

Bob999
04-03-2010, 01:24 PM
And personally I see confrontation and a somewhat anti DIYer attitude in your posts about codes rather than anything helpful for the OP.

So now you are critical of others for what you do every day--confrontation and an anti DIYer attitude rather than anything helpful for the OP--and even when the others have not been confrontational and anti DIYer. I certainly have seen nothing in the posts from Wally Hays that qualifies as confrontational and anti DIYer!

To specifically support my statement about confrontation--you have repeatedly posted alledged "facts" about me that you have no way of knowing because I have not posted personal information about myself. Yet you continue to post statements about what you think is my background, experience, and expertise. To specifically support my statement about anti-DIYer I need only point to posts you have made--including at least one in this thread where you were critical of a DIYer's decisions AFTER he had made them and posted them on this board. Here is an example:

"And I see that you bought the EE version of the Clack WS-1 and a 5600 time clock for a heavy mineral pH filter. I would have told you not to do that. The 5600 is not a good choice because it is a 3/4" valve. You should have gone with the Clack WS-1CS for both with the one for the filter being non metered or the time clock version."

Wally Hays
04-03-2010, 01:30 PM
Thanks Bob. This is possibly the most frustrating thing I have seen in a long time and I still don't know what the whole point is. Even the OP thanked me for pointing out the stuff in his basement. The only one that's got a problem here is Gary who somehow thinks I have dissed him because I have a different opinion.10326

Bob999
04-03-2010, 02:03 PM
Thanks Bob. This is possibly the most frustrating thing I have seen in a long time and I still don't know what the whole point is. Even the OP thanked me for pointing out the stuff in his basement. The only one that's got a problem here is Gary who somehow thinks I have dissed him because I have a different opinion.10326

I certainly don't understand what the point is either. I have to wonder whether it is Egomania -- is an obsessive preoccupation with one's self[ and applies to someone who follows their own ungoverned impulses and is possessed by delusions of personal greatness and feels a lack of appreciation. Someone suffering from this extreme egocentric (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egocentric) focus is an egomaniac. The condition is psychologically abnormal.

hj
04-03-2010, 02:24 PM
If Gary's postings convinced you that you had the ability to DIY this, or any other job, I guess it is time to "chuck him along side his head", because we should only be helping people who already know most of the answer to their questions and just need a little nudge, NOT to encourage people that "anyone can do plumbing if they can screw two pipes together". And it looks like you have enough problems in that basement, that you do not need more by an improper softener connection. As a minor point and to answer one of your questions, RO units are USUALLY installed with water softeners to remove the sodium, NOT salt because there is no salt in soft water. There is sodium, and for people on low sodium diets the RO unit makes it safe for them. I also makes soft water more palatable for people, such as myself, who do not like the "flat" taste of soft water.

Gary Slusser
04-03-2010, 03:17 PM
If Gary's postings convinced you that you had the ability to DIY this, or any other job, I guess it is time to "chuck him along side his head", because we should only be helping people who already know most of the answer to their questions and just need a little nudge, NOT to encourage people that "anyone can do plumbing if they can screw two pipes together".

And it looks like you have enough problems in that basement, that you do not need more by an improper softener connection.
HJ, this is not one of my 'chuck'im up long side his head' things. :) Well there is those times in this thread for trying to have a conversation with Wally... or Bob999.

Actually all I have told the OP about plumbing is the size of the drain line he should run and that I would have shortened the lengths of the PEX between his Sharkbite fittings and the length of the copper tails. That drain line is the 3/4" PVC for his like 70' run to the far end of the basement. I didn't see any sense or need to talk about his not to code upside down or misapplied traps etc., or the very ugly Fernco fitting failing to support his cast iron stack. ummm I may have also mentioned he should have used the Clack SCH 80 PVC elbow plumbing connectors instead of the brass inline fittings too.

Anyway he did do good plumbing his PVC 3/4" drain line and running the PEX to his filter and softener but I guess we'll see if it holds water later. And he put the stand pipe in too, and he even used purple primer! without having to be told. So maybe with nothing but the desire, and the ability to sniff PVC glue without passing out, he's turned out to be a pretty good DIYer plumber so far, no? I don't know if he can use wrenches yet. ;)

jimbo
04-03-2010, 06:00 PM
How the heck did a little question about a water filter turn in to an 11 page tear jerker??

hj
04-03-2010, 06:05 PM
Like Topsy, it just grew.

thinkup
04-11-2010, 05:20 PM
I won't even go into why I've been delayed yet again .... this post not withstanding lol. I'm going to re-read it all again tonight. But hey, here we go, I'm making it a point to get this done this week. The 8th was my birthday and getting this done will be a present to myself.

Ok, point one; I'm a green DIYer and I know I have a ton of problems with the plumbing in the basement. We are going to have the upstairs bathroom done in the not to distant future and correcting all those code issues will take place them. By a "pro", I'm thinking. So for now, the code violations can stand as long as it will "work". Anything you guys see that just won't work I'll correct this week. Everything else will have to wait. I do have to thank everyone for pointing stuff out for me though.

Point two; I know I didn't get the 100% perfect solution for me but what I've got will work for now. When it comes time to fix the bathroom I can make upgrades then. Hopefully an in-floor drain will happen at that time too.

Point three; I've had problems finding the drain line I wanted so I've got something close I hope. This is the last step this week before the RO gets added. If anything won't work I'll make the changes, otherwise I'll just use what I have.

I've ran the power for the system and am ready to get it running. Flaws or stupid setup and all. I want to to find the balance with what I have and get the unit running and programmed and I'll re-consult for upgrades and all that after. Getting my head wrapped around everything is difficult without it actually running.

I'm going to post some photos here of the latest drain tube I have and if it all looks good ...then we can go live!! And hopefully this isn't all effed up to much to work. I'll just close my eyes to all the flaws for now lol. Thanks guys for all the advice.

thinkup
04-11-2010, 05:29 PM
I took Gary's advice and took back the regular tube I had to look for his suggestion. I couldn't find it and the dee-pot had no clue. Figures right. So I bought two sizes of braided vinyl tube. I'll take one back depending on the recommendation. I can see into the tube enough to see the water clarity I think. I have 5/8 OD x 3/8 ID from one tube and 3/4 OD x 1/2 ID in the other.

What do you guys think?

thinkup
04-11-2010, 05:36 PM
I've bought some new barbs and a 3/4 PVC T per a few suggestions. Thanks guys.

I have a new 1/2 barb x 1/2 MIP to screw in the AN filter and then into my new tubing. See above.

I also bought another 1/2 x 1/2 barb to go from the new tubing to the 3/4 PVC T. Just like the one I already had. I'll run the 3/4 PVC down the wall to the 3/4 PVC T and then use the 1/2 Barb to PVC fitting to connect to the tubing.

What do you guys think?

thinkup
04-11-2010, 05:43 PM
Here are some notes attached to two photos of the new stuff I bought.

What do you guys think?

Gary Slusser
04-12-2010, 01:33 PM
You couldn't find opaque 5/8" OD 1/2"ID PE (polyethylene) tubing? Most any hardware store has it in a box in a rack with all different sizes in individual boxes and you pull the end of the tubing out of the hole in the box and measure a piece and cut it off; well the clerk does and writes a price sticker for it with the length on it for check out.

Anyway, although what you have will work, better would be 2, 1/2" insert x 1/2" male and 2 reducing bushings from 3/4" slip PVC to 1/2" female for into the tee? Some places have them in PVC, 2 3/4" MPT x 1/2" insert and a 3/4" female threaded Tee?

Use the 3/4", 1/2" ID reinforced Vinyl. Remember nothing smaller than 1/2" ID?

waterman824
04-15-2010, 02:25 PM
Water Softener with RO and Ph (acid) Neutralizer Install Help

I need some help installing a new water softener, RO system and acid neutralizer. I'll post pics as the process is completed and hopefully this thread can serve as a nice guide for the future. I have all the main equipment now and need to move on to the main plumbing part. I'll have to come back around for the programing help at the end but first I need everything hooked up. For Ph I have a Fleck 5600 with 1 cuft. I have the WS1 at 32k with SST-60 resin for the softener. A PuroTech RO system and an inline sand seperator. The RO system also has a pump if I need to install it. This is a small ranch house with one bathroom and a simple shower with a regular shower head. There is only two of us living here. I have 3/4 copper coming in and want to use CPVC and PEX as much as possible. I'm a DIYer but have no plumbing experience. The water comes in at one side of the house from the city and drain goes out to a septic system at the opposite side of the house. Also on the drain side of the house is a tankless hot water heater. The kitchen sink is on the main supply side of the house and the bathroom is on the septic side of the house. (60 to 70 feet apart) I'll post the main questions I have to start below and I'll provide the details need as they come up.

My understanding is that the sediment filter is installed first in line, then the neutralizer and then the softener. Is that correct? Yes


I have to run the drain line about 70 feet to the septic drain. I've read that 3/4 PVC is the smart choice. Is that correct? Can the neutralizer and the water softener share the same 3/4 inch PVC drain? Run 1" and yes you can connect then together. Also, how much should this drain line slope? No slope is needed


Should the RO system be fed softened water? Yes


What size plumping pipes should I buy? Everything branches off a main copper pipe that is 3/4 inches now. I don't want the hose bibs softened so I'm even thinking of adding in manifolds if they make sense. 3/4", Put a Tee on the inlet side of the water softener and run a line to your outside hose bibs.


Which is a better choice CPVC vs PEX after the main copper to connect to the water filters? Pick up two copper to pex adapters.

I'm thinking shark bite fittings for copper to whatever but whats a good PEX connection system? As long as they have them available.I've read up on it and have a hydronic heating system thats using a crimp system that seems ok but has had some leaking problems. I didn't install that system by the way.

What information can I provide to help out here? After installing leave water softener in bypass, open bypass on pH filter and let tank fill with water. Then close the bypass and put system in backwash. This will release the air from the tank out the drain line. The open bypass and let the system finish its regeneration cycle. When pH filter is back in service then open the bypass valve on the water softener and follow the instruction on our site for start up procedure. Here is the installation guide links for both of these systems.

http://www.qualitywatertreatment.com/PDF/PH%20Neutralizer%20Installation%20Guide.pdf

http://www.qualitywatertreatment.com/PDF/Installation_Guide_for_Clackws1EE_Water_Softener_r ev12_18_09.pdf

thinkup
04-25-2010, 09:50 AM
Well it's alive and it appears to be running well. I'll post more pics if anyone is interested.

I took out the pre-filter before the AN in the end.

I had the AN-Filter up and running a day or two first and not a drop of water pressure lost that was noticeable. I could get a sense of the limestone smell and the water tasted different. Is that normal? Is drinking limestone safe?

The softener came on line next and I programmed as per the instructions in the last post from Waterman824. We are only a two person household with one bath and SST-60 (I think) resin. So do those instructions seem about right for me?

Speaking of drinking water, having resin softened water is ok to drink? It's just weird to think about I guess?

O, and RO system went in easy. Not a problem at all with that.

I'll post a follow up post for others as a reference with some final photos in a bit as well. I'll leave out the part where I thought I had the water supply off and didn't and almost flooded the basement with water and soaked the electrical breaker box and all that too. :-)

Bob999
04-25-2010, 04:10 PM
Your Acid Neutralizing filter adds calcium carbonate to the water (same mineral contained in many calcium supplements)--safe to drink. The softener exchanges sodium ions for calcium and magnesium ions (and iron and manganese if present) and is generally considered safe to drink but should be avoided by individuals on a sodium restricted diet. The RO unit removes most of the sodium and other minerals in the water.

The programming instructions in the link you refer to use maximum salt dose for the amount of resin which results in relatively low grains removed per pound of salt used and not what I would recommend for most installations.

thinkup
04-25-2010, 08:32 PM
Thanks for the reply Bob999.

Can you give me a high level overview of your recommendation on the programming of the softener? My goal is first to be salt savy and they to worry about the total softness and resin life. I want this thing to last a long time but my water was only about 10 hard to start and there are only two of us here. Also, I didn't do a manual regen right off the bat. Should I since the first regen won't be till about 10 days from now? Does the type of resin I chose play any big parts in this?

Also for the AN filter; it's set to regen every 4 days. Good idea or not based on the other factors of this setup?

Bob999
04-26-2010, 06:55 AM
Please post your water analysis again--this thread has gotten so long finding it if it is posted is difficult.
Hardness 10?
Iron and manganese (I will assume none)
pH
City or well.

I understand you have a 1 cubic foot unit with SST-60 resin and your AN filter has calcite (only). You say two people in the household--I will assume 60 gallons per person per day unless you have better specific information for your water usage.

If you have iron in your water the 4 day regen for the AN filter is good. If no iron then 7 days would be my recommendation.

You should program your softener so that it regenerates every 8 days based on average use so determine the capacity used in 8 days--2 people @ 60 gal per day equals 120 gallons at 10? GPG hardness is 1200 GPD or 9600 for 8 days--round up to 10,000 grains of capacity. Now you need to deal with reserve capacity because the softener is typically set up to regenerate in the middle of the night (only) and there needs to be sufficient reserve capacity to ensure there will be soft water between the time the meter reaches the capacity setting and the regeneration time. The specifics of reserve are determined by the valve (and the specific model with the Clack WS1) and programmer choice. Once you determine the total capacity needed (10,000 grains plus reserve) this will determine the salt dose. You can refer to the literature for SST-60 resin to determine the relationship between salt dose and capacity. The literature is for new resin and most installers also include a factor to account for the fact that the regeneration efficiency will degrade a bit over time.

Set day override to 8 to ensure regeneration at least every 8 days.

Gary Slusser
04-26-2010, 02:19 PM
Well it's alive and it appears to be running well. I'll post more pics if anyone is interested.

I took out the pre-filter before the AN in the end.

I had the AN-Filter up and running a day or two first and not a drop of water pressure lost that was noticeable. I could get a sense of the limestone smell and the water tasted different. Is that normal? Is drinking limestone safe?

The softener came on line next and I programmed as per the instructions in the last post from Waterman824. We are only a two person household with one bath and SST-60 (I think) resin. So do those instructions seem about right for me?

Speaking of drinking water, having resin softened water is ok to drink? It's just weird to think about I guess?

O, and RO system went in easy. Not a problem at all with that.

I'll post a follow up post for others as a reference with some final photos in a bit as well. I'll leave out the part where I thought I had the water supply off and didn't and almost flooded the basement with water and soaked the electrical breaker box and all that too. :-)
You can smell limestone!... yes it is safe to drink the water, the limestone is approved for potable water use.

A softener adds 7.85 mg of sodium to each liter of softened water per gpg of compensated hardness being removed. I.E. I just had a phone call and this added sodium was mentioned. And his 17 gpg hard water will have 133.45 mg per liter of added sodium. 7.85 mg/l per gpg 17 = 133.45. A liter is roughly a quart of your water. A slice of white bread usually has 120 to 160 mg of sodium per slice. V8 juice 530-560 per 8 oz glass etc. etc..

Their instructions are full of errors in setup and installation parts. They talk as if all their customers have the same size softener and AN filter.

The programming is going to cause you to use a lot of water that is not necessary and they are using the maximum salt dose so your salt efficiency is going to be terrible.

You probably use 60 gals/person/day instead of 75, and then they go on to say to subtract a days worth of gallons/capacity...

The calendar override is too long.

thinkup
04-26-2010, 07:05 PM
Thanks Bob and Gary for following up, you're life savers!

"You can smell limestone!." ROFL ...well who knows what I'm smelling. I drive everyone nuts with everything that I can smell. Either way it did smell different when it was just the AN. Now that the softener is running too I don't smell it.

I figured their instructions where one size fits all. When Bob pointed me in the direction of a little research, I knew it for a fact. I have the SST-60 resin. I read all about it not being FDA approved but being ok as in non-toxic. I also read that it's great because it's so efficient. Well there it goes ...how to I set this thing to take advantage of that fact. I couldn't find any hard and fast numbers. And 60 gallons per day is way more accurate for us. We skimp on water too.

Back to where we started; Two of us living here with a Great Dane and 5 cats. One bathroom for now and the kitchen sink. I have one hose bib not softened and two softened. One I might leave for the car washing. The water pressure is still awesome by the way. In fact I put a new faucet in the kitchen (the acid actually ate right threw the other one) and the pressure seems improved!

10 grains hardness
6.5 or so pH
no iron or mang to speak of
water from the village with good test results etc.

I wanted to put the filters in mainly to fix the pH and to protect the tank-less hot water heater and the boiler setup.

Guys, what do you recommend for my setup as far as programming goes? 7 days on the AN-Filter? What about the softener?

thinkup
04-28-2010, 07:25 PM
Ok, did some final work here to try to wrap this up. Does this sound right? I really need come clarity here if you guys can help.

AN-Filter - Every 5 days Backwash

2 ppl at 60 gallons per day = 120 gallons x 10 grain hardness = 1,200 grains per day.
32,000 grain softener / 1,200 grains per day = almost 27 days

Should I use the "good rule of thumb" and ignore the 27 days and go with 9 days override or 1080 gallons of water volume between regens?

Below is what I'm thinking of doing. I have the WS1-EE at 32k with SST-60 resin. 2 ppl house, city water at 10 grains hardness and not much else wrong with it. (Other then being acidic. Speaking of which, how much hardness does and AN-Filter usually add?)

Set the system to Soften and not filter
Backwash = 6 mins
Regenerate draw = 60 mins
Second Backwash = to 5 mins
Rinse = 6 mins
Brine fill = 7 mins

Then go into volumetric setup and set for 9 day override and 1080 (or something close if I have to round) gallons of water.

Which "time" or step in this process is the "salt dose"? I know I can skimp on the water and "salt dose" with the resin I have. The 32k softener is probably overkill even for us but it has room to grow. I'm overly concerned with salt leakage but I do want a smart setup with the stuff I have.

I'm using SST-60 resin with only two people in the house and 10 grain hard water from the village with no iron or mang. I will be the first week this weekend with the setup. Should I force it's first regn then?

In my research I've found that about 15lbs of salt puts the 32k back to full capacity but 9lbs will give me back about 27k which seems ok to me. How can I adjust this "salt dose" with the EE I have?

Akpsdvan
04-28-2010, 07:34 PM
Every 5 days on the AN filter,,, I give that one OK..

On the softener, ever have lots of people over?

If there is no ice maker, ro system or 0.25 gpm .... me, I would set the meter part to 3000 gallon for the weeks that there are lots of people over.. and have the day over ride at 15 days .

Over the next few months keep track of gallons per day ... see how much you use in a 15 day time frame and how the water is from day to day...

Any time that I change the settings or take a unit down the last thing that I will do before leaving a customers place is send the unit into a cleaning cycle to help reset it with the new settings or a full cycle after the cleaning of the injector which is the most likely reason for me to be there in the first place..

This is what I would do and an idea for yourself.

thinkup
04-29-2010, 11:39 AM
Thanks for the follow up Akpsdvan.

I've found the information for the standard operating conditions from Purolite for SST-60 and I'd like to match up as closely as possible. Does that make sense to try to do that?

The Standard Operating Conditions don't match up "1 for 1" with the EE programing so I'm at a loss a little bit. And I still don't get how to control the "salt dose".

Per Purolite

Backwash - 5 to 20 mins (I choose 6 mins)
Regeneration - 10 mins (Is this my second backwash?)
Rinse (slow) - 12 to 60 mins (Is this my Regenerate Draw?)
Rinse (fast) - 6-30 mins (I have this set to 6 mins?)

I'm a little confused on what the lingo is I suppose.

Akpsdvan
04-29-2010, 12:07 PM
Thanks for the follow up Akpsdvan.

I've found the information for the standard operating conditions from Purolite for SST-60 and I'd like to match up as closely as possible. Does that make sense to try to do that?

The Standard Operating Conditions don't match up "1 for 1" with the EE programing so I'm at a loss a little bit. And I still don't get how to control the "salt dose".

Per Purolite

Backwash - 5 to 20 mins (I choose 6 mins)
Regeneration - 10 mins (Is this my second backwash?)
Rinse (slow) - 12 to 60 mins (Is this my Regenerate Draw?)
Rinse (fast) - 6-30 mins (I have this set to 6 mins?)

I'm a little confused on what the lingo is I suppose.

Part of their numbers are for the different amounts of media.. then the other part of the numbers are for the water quality...

If all that I have is low iron say under 1ppm and hardness then the backwash most likely will be 8-10 minutes, more iron then I will go with 14-16 minutes.
Regeneration is the brine draw and slow rinse.. that should be 45-60 minutes.
brine draw and slow rinse are the 2 half's of that part of the cycle , the brine will be pulled till there is no more brine and then finish out that time frame with the slow rinse.

Rapid rinse at 6 should work.

Your learning.....

thinkup
04-29-2010, 12:29 PM
Ya I feel like I'm still learning and I have it down at a very very high level I think. Funny this when I started this process I didn't even know you used salt with softeners! I grew up in an apartment with no father and was a computer geek. Now I have a home I'm running my electric wire, building walls, doing plumbing and installing things!!

So correct me if I'm wrong. If I take your info then each time my system goes in gen mode (be it weekly, or every 15 days or based on some water amount) the WS1-EE will do the following:

Step one: It will backwash (I have it set for 6 mins and you are suggesting 8-10mins)
Step two: It will regenerate which is a multi step process. Part one is the "regenerate draw" part two is the "second backwash" and part three is the "rinse". (I have the draw for 60mins, the 2nd wash for 6mins and the rinse for 5mins)
Step three: It will fill the brine tank back up for x number of mins. I have it set to 7 mins.

But still: how can I calculate my "salt dose"?

Akpsdvan
04-29-2010, 05:18 PM
Ya I feel like I'm still learning and I have it down at a very very high level I think. Funny this when I started this process I didn't even know you used salt with softeners! I grew up in an apartment with no father and was a computer geek. Now I have a home I'm running my electric wire, building walls, doing plumbing and installing things!!

So correct me if I'm wrong. If I take your info then each time my system goes in gen mode (be it weekly, or every 15 days or based on some water amount) the WS1-EE will do the following:

Step one: It will backwash (I have it set for 6 mins and you are suggesting 8-10mins)
Step two: It will regenerate which is a multi step process. Part one is the "regenerate draw" part two is the "second backwash" and part three is the "rinse". (I have the draw for 60mins, the 2nd wash for 6mins and the rinse for 5mins)
Step three: It will fill the brine tank back up for x number of mins. I have it set to 7 mins.

But still: how can I calculate my "salt dose"?

I just through moving information from one harddrive to another and then moving that harddrive to another computer that is moving faster and better than my old HP... and now I am working on how to get 2 monitors up and running......... joys....

Back to your fun in the sun...
The clack will do the back wash then move to the brine draw and slow rinse then move the piston to a second back wash and then the rapid rinse and then off to the brine refill.

Salt dose... the 32K is the max on the SST-60 with 15lbs of salt. I would run with 8 lbs of salt , that would let you have a capacity of 25khttp://www.caitechnologies.com/images/PDFs/specs/SST60.pdf
7minutes X ?gpm=?

In the paper work that you got for the unit is there some thing about the brine flow control? .25gpm .50gpm?

If the control is .5gpm then 5 minutes 34 seconds will be realy close to the 8 lbs....
If at the .5gpm you do 6 minutes that will be 9 lbs..... or just over the 25k on the SST-60

thinkup
04-29-2010, 07:25 PM
Thanks for all the help Akpsdvan. I'm a computer geek by trade and work at a large housing authority in the IT department by day. I wear many hats there but my day to day office has a nice big three 22" monitor setup on it. If you need any computer advice or help let me know and I'm sure I can set you in the right direction.

As for the salt dose; I read the SST-60 lit and had the same thought that between 8 and 10lbs would be great for me. Using the full 15lbs to get all the way to 32K just seemed like a waste.

In my book I have steps:
2CT Softening or Filter
3CT Backwash between 1 and 20 mins
4CT Regenerate Draw 1 to 99 mins
5CT Second Backwash 1 to 20 mins
6CT Rinse 1 to 20 mins
7CT Fill .1 to 99.0 mins or off. Says the refill flow control is 2.2 gpm or 8.3 lpm. Then says All other valves are shipped from the factory with refill flow of 0.5 gpm or 1.9 lpm.

Does that mean then a setting of 6 mins for step 5CT(Second Backwash) would give me about a 9lbs salt dose?

So:
2CT = Softening
3CT(Backwash) = 8 mins
4CT(Regenerate Draw) = 60 mins
5CT(Second Backwash) = 6 mins (9lbs salt dose??)
6CT(Rinse) = 6 mins
7CT(Fill) = 7 mins

Here is a link to a manual for what I'm looking at. LOL I feel like I just need the answer guide so I can learn backward from it at this point.
http://www.qualitywatertreatment.com/PDF/Clack_EE_Valve_Service_Manual.pdf

Akpsdvan
04-29-2010, 07:45 PM
Thanks for all the help Akpsdvan. I'm a computer geek by trade and work at a large housing authority in the IT department by day. I wear many hats there but my day to day office has a nice big three 22" monitor setup on it. If you need any computer advice or help let me know and I'm sure I can set you in the right direction.

As for the salt dose; I read the SST-60 lit and had the same thought that between 8 and 10lbs would be great for me. Using the full 15lbs to get all the way to 32K just seemed like a waste.

In my book I have steps:
2CT Softening or Filter
3CT Backwash between 1 and 20 mins
4CT Regenerate Draw 1 to 99 mins
5CT Second Backwash 1 to 20 mins
6CT Rinse 1 to 20 mins
7CT Fill .1 to 99.0 mins or off. Says the refill flow control is 2.2 gpm or 8.3 lpm. Then says All other valves are shipped from the factory with refill flow of 0.5 gpm or 1.9 lpm.

Does that mean then a setting of 6 mins for step 5CT(Second Backwash) would give me about a 9lbs salt dose?

So:
2CT = Softening
3CT(Backwash) = 8 mins
4CT(Regenerate Draw) = 60 mins
5CT(Second Backwash) = 6 mins (9lbs salt dose??)
6CT(Rinse) = 6 mins
7CT(Fill) = 7 mins

Here is a link to a manual for what I'm looking at. LOL I feel like I just need the answer guide so I can learn backward from it at this point.
http://www.qualitywatertreatment.com/PDF/Clack_EE_Valve_Service_Manual.pdf

Even a blind Dog can find a bone from time to time,, and I have the two monitors going........ boy that is a trip to have them going....
Good up to 5CT that is a back wash and nothing else..
The 6CT is good..
Then 7CT is the brine tank refill... at 7 minutes X ?gpm= Salt LBS..
I have the manual for the EE... most likely if the manual is correct you have the .5gpm...
so 7 minutes X .5gpm that will give you 3.5 gallons of water, that 3.5 gallons X 3lbs per gallon will give 10.5 lbs of salt.

thinkup
04-29-2010, 07:53 PM
Ahhhh.

So I had 5CT confused and 7CT.

So is this how it works?

Normally while in service hard water flows down through the resin and then up though the distriuter tube as softwater.

When your capacity runs low you need to regenerate with salty water from the brine tank.

First it switches the flow to have the water go down the tube and up through the resin.

Then it switches to drawing in salty water from the brine tank which goes back to flowing down through the resin and out the drain.

Then once it's done it does an up-flow second backwash and then a downflow fast rinse.

Then it fills the brine tank up with water again which will be your "salt dose" the next time you need to regenerate. If I set that step (7CT) to 6 mins at .5 gpm that will give me 3 gallons of water or 9 salt pounds.

For what it's worth, I put 5 gallons of water in the brine tank when I first filled it with salt. Does that mean my first salt dose will be 15lbs of salt? And won't that kick my float into action to prevent to much water filling it? O man what's going to happen then?!

Akpsdvan
04-29-2010, 07:58 PM
60 minutes on the draw and slow rinse in fine.... no problem there...
7CT will be filling the salt tank,brine tank time that you set based on refill rate and time needed for 3lbs per gallon of water.