Culligan Iron Cleer problems.....

[vnvet]

I'll try not to be too long winded here, you guys helped me with my well problem last year and gave me all the right answers...

When I built this house 4 years ago the only problem I had with the water was the sulfur smell, I talked to neighbor up the road and he said Culligan took care of his problem so I called them....the rep came out and said he knew exactly what I needed and sold me this 2 tank Iron Cleer system......he never tested our water, just ran his hand accross the inside of the toilet tank.

First 2 years it worked ok then I started to have low pressure problems, now it's to to the point where I've had to bypass it to have decent water pressure...I had Culligan come out last month, they charged me $170.00 to look at it, when the tech was there he told my wife I needed a rebed....another $700.00...she called me and put him on the phone, I said you have to be kidding me !!! he said it was plugged with iron....I told him I dodn't even know if I have Iron and only purchased this system to take out the sufur smell...he replies, oh...you don't even have the correct system for that !. I said well that's what you sold me, and that's about as far as that went and he left.....

I get a call from the manager the next day as to why I'm not happy....he says you need a rebed every 3-4 years, I said ok..your tech says I don't even have the correct system...no reply to that, and just a bunch of one word answers to my questions...

After a couple of weeks of my wife bitching about the smell I call them and say ok come do the rebed...They make an appointment to come pick up my tank.....the tech shows up, works on it a while and tells the wife I don't need a rebed...he has repaired it and it's no charge...

Now 2 weeks later I'm back in the same boat, no pressure and I've had to bypass it..

So my question is what do you think, do I need a rebed?....should I toss this POS and get something else? I don't really want to pay these guys any more money because I don't think they are an honorable bunch.

[Bob999]

From your description it sounds as if the media tank is not backwashing properly and the media is loading up and restricting flow.

The system you have injects air as an oxidizing agent and presumably to meet the oxygen requirements for birm to work (the tank with the pump on top) and then filters the water through birm media. Here is a link describing birm media and the conditions necessary for it to work properly: http://www.caitechnologies.com/images/PDFs/specs/birm.pdf. If you in fact have hydrogen sulfide that may be the problem--birm does not work with hydrogen sulfide present.

Here is a link to the manual for your system and I recomend you read it if you have not.
http://www.culligan.com/uploadedFiles/Service_and_Maintenance/Customer_Support/Owners_Guides/Whole_House_Filters_Owners_Guides/Iron-Cleer%20Filters%20(Rev%20A4)%2001020479.pdf

[vnvet]

From your description it sounds as if the media tank is not backwashing properly and the media is loading up and restricting flow.

The system you have injects air as an oxidizing agent and presumably to meet the oxygen requirements for birm to work (the tank with the pump on top) and then filters the water through birm media. Here is a link describing birm media and the conditions necessary for it to work properly: http://www.caitechnologies.com/images/PDFs/specs/birm.pdf. If you in fact have hydrogen sulfide that may be the problem--birm does not work with hydrogen sulfide present.

Here is a link to the manual for your system and I recomend you read it if you have not.
http://www.culligan.com/uploadedFiles/Service_and_Maintenance/Customer_Support/Owners_Guides/Whole_House_Filters_Owners_Guides/Iron-Cleer%20Filters%20(Rev%20A4)%2001020479.pdf

I have that manual and have read it, that isn't exactly the system I have as in mine is mechanical programing, nor do I have any of the shut off valves they refer to...just ball valves in the lines to the system. In trouble shooting for low presssure it lists ( Plugged aeration inlet diffuser or pick up tube)....where is this on the system? Can I check this myself?..lasdt time the tech was here I had my regular pressure when he left after doing something?

We definately have hydrogen sulfide , this is coal country, Iron I don't think so...no indication from any of the outside water that doesn't run through the system.

[Akpsdvan]

If there was iron you would know about it.. untreated water in like a dogs water dish and orange build up at the bottum of the dish.

When you take the system off line, bypass it can you do just one tank or do you have to take both at the same time?

[vnvet]

If there was iron you would know about it.. untreated water in like a dogs water dish and orange build up at the bottum of the dish.

When you take the system off line, bypass it can you do just one tank or do you have to take both at the same time?

I can only bypass both at the same time, here's some pics of what I have.

[Akpsdvan]

So it is either all or none... rats..

When the unit with the control goes into a cleaning cycle does the backwash sound as strong as it did when it was first put in? ie if when it was new it was backwashing at 6gpm but now it is at 4gpm then the sound would be different and to me that would say that there might be some kind of blockage in the head or dist tube of the lead tank..

[vnvet]

It sounds pretty much the same at it always has, it's pretty loud....in fact I was putting it on manual recharge and it worked a couple times, but the last few times I still don't have pressure after the backwash. When it was working correctly during regular water use you would hear the water draining into one of the tanks with pretty good force, now it's just a trickle, and water doesn't seem to be able to get through the system. I have a Grundfos pump ( let's not go there) and it's causing it to stop and start every 5 seconds when it should be running continuously...

[Akpsdvan]

The water does not seem to be flowing through the first tank with out any force? like it is trickling through the first tank?

The well pump runs more or longer when all the treatment system is on line? Does the well pump run normally when the treatment system is off line?

[Bob999]

In trouble shooting for low presssure it lists ( Plugged aeration inlet diffuser or pick up tube)....where is this on the system? Can I check this myself?..lasdt time the tech was here I had my regular pressure when he left after doing something?

We definately have hydrogen sulfide , this is coal country, Iron I don't think so...no indication from any of the outside water that doesn't run through the system.

The inlet diffuser and the pick up tube are components in the tank in which air is pumped. To get to them you would need to bypass the treatment system and then remove the head from the air tank and pull the components out.

The system you say you have is listed by Culligan to have Birm media which is used for iron and manganese but not for hydrogen sulfide--do you know for sure what media you have in the second tank?

[vnvet]

Yes the pump works correctly when I have the system bypassed, it runs as water is being used and I have great pressure, I have it set to 60 lbs. And yes, the water is just trickling through the first tank (tank on the right in the pic)

[Akpsdvan]

I myself would make sure that the line going into the first tank was clear from the ball valve to the head, then make sure that the head on that first tank was clear and open , along with the dist tube going down into the tank ..

One step at a time, remove one possible challenge at a time.

[vnvet]

The inlet diffuser and the pick up tube are components in the tank in which air is pumped. To get to them you would need to bypass the treatment system and then remove the head from the air tank and pull the components out.

The system you say you have is listed by Culligan to have Birm media which is used for iron and manganese but not for hydrogen sulfide--do you know for sure what media you have in the second tank?

The system I have I posted a pic of.... I have no idea what media it has, I see the manual says Birm.....but the manual also says the systems removes hydrogen sulfide...and Culligan doesn't offer any info when you call them other to say they'll send a tech out and make sure you are aware it's going to cost $170.00 just to get them here....

[Akpsdvan]

How strong is this H2S that you talk of?

light, med, or run you out of not only the house but out of the county?

[vnvet]

I myself would make sure that the line going into the first tank was clear from the ball valve to the head, then make sure that the head on that first tank was clear and open , along with the dist tube going down into the tank ..

One step at a time, remove one possible challenge at a time.

I can do that, my guess is it's clear though..yesterday I drained it down a little and opened that little balck canister on top of tank one, there was a screen in there and it was clear. When I turned the pump back on and re opened that ball valve I could hear the water just rush right through it into the tank....after a few minutes it was back to the trickle under use and I bypassed the system again...

[vnvet]

How strong is this H2S that you talk of?

light, med, or run you out of not only the house but out of the county?

It's probably medium to bad, you always smell it using water with when the system is off. Just disturbing water in the toilet bowl you smell it....washing clothes stinks up the the whole laundry room.

[Bob999]

The system I have I posted a pic of.... I have no idea what media it has, I see the manual says Birm.....but the manual also says the systems removes hydrogen sulfide...and Culligan doesn't offer any info when you call them other to say they'll send a tech out and make sure you are aware it's going to cost $170.00 just to get them here....

I see that the manual says the system will reduce hydrogen sulfide--and air injection will oxidize some of the hydrogen sulfide--but not remove it completely. That is written in the manual-- "Hydrogen Sulfide — Often referred to as rotten egg odor, hydrogen sulfide will be reduced significantly on water supplies containing less than 5 ppm."

Then when you read the specification sheet for Birm it says that there should be no hydrogen sulfide present when it is used. If you decide to replace the system you should consider a media that does effectively deal with hydrogen sulfide. One possibility would be to replace your existing media with Filox.

But I am going to step back at this point--Akpsdvan is taking you through a step by step diagnosis so lets see if that will resolve your problem.

[vnvet]

One thing I just looked up makes me wonder.....I don't have any iron..just hydrogen sulfide, I don't know why I have an Iron Cleer...this is what Culligan said I needed. When I look at the manual for their Sulfur Cleer system it shows the media as 1.5 cu ft CIM ??

[Akpsdvan]

From the photo that you have posted it looks like the second tank, the one with the control on top would handle 1.5 cubic feet of media, be it birm or some other media..

Why they did what they did I do not know..

The two tanks that are in the photo look to be of the same size in diameter and height...

[Akpsdvan]

I can do that, my guess is it's clear though..yesterday I drained it down a little and opened that little balck canister on top of tank one, there was a screen in there and it was clear. When I turned the pump back on and re opened that ball valve I could hear the water just rush right through it into the tank....after a few minutes it was back to the trickle under use and I bypassed the system again...

Check, take things apart carefully and make sure that there is free and clear runs to and from that lead head, that the head is clear that the inlet into the tank is clear that the dist tube is clear and that the outlet is clear.

[vnvet]

Ok will do....any idea how to get that lead head off?

[Akpsdvan]

Ok will do....any idea how to get that lead head off?

I hope that there are unions before and after the head, if so then undo the unions and that head should unscrew counter clock wise..

If there are no unions then.. what kind of pipe is in use? copper? if so then 2 sharkbite couplers will work to put it back together after you cut the pipe..

private message me if you need to ..

[vnvet]

I strolled up the road to my neighbors place to see if he has the same system and ask if he'd had any problems. His system isn't even close to what i have....I figured he'd have the same seeing I told the salesman I wanted whatever he had sold him to remove the sulfur smell. He has a softener, with the salt, and a charcoal canister on the wall. I asked what removed the sulfur smelll and he said the charcoal canister...he changes it whenever he starts to smell a little sulfur....cartriges cost him $30.00.

Softeners don't remove the sulfur smell do they??...can I solve this problem by adding a charcoal canister like he has?

[Peter Griffin]

No, softeners don't take the sulpher smell out. A charcoal filter will as your neighbor will attest.

[Akpsdvan]

No, softeners don't take the sulpher smell out. A charcoal filter will as your neighbor will attest.

Right, softeners are not made to remove the h2s.. A charcoal filter or carbon filter will remove the h2s, and depending on the level of smell as to how much carbon is needed for the job at hand.

Like if all that you have is h2s and it is very strong one idea would be to find a used 5600(softener valve to pull chlorine once a month to run through the carbon) 2 cubic feet of carbon put that in and on the lead tank remove the rest of the equipment and replace the carbon maybe every 3 years.....

Simple keep it simple... fewer things in the water flow to reduce the pressure..

[vnvet]

Just goes to show that Culligan is not an honest operation, when the salesman came I told him I wanted what my neighbor had to take the sulfur smell out because he was happy with what he had...he asked if I wanted soft water, I said no..just want the sulfur smell gone...and he sells me this Iron Cleer.....and we have no iron. I think I'll just turn it over to my lawyer. Thanks for all your help !!

[Bob999]

I suggest that you have your water tested. The (apparent) fact that something is plugging up the air injection system suggests there is something in the water that is being oxidized by the air injection. Testing will establish whether there is iron and/or manganese in the water as well as the level of those contaminants but probably won't be very useful for the hydrogen sulfide--which you know you have.

[Akpsdvan]

Maybe if more took your course of action they will listen...

Sad that it has to go that way, but some times it is the only way.

[Bob999]

Just goes to show that Culligan is not an honest operation, when the salesman came I told him I wanted what my neighbor had to take the sulfur smell out because he was happy with what he had...he asked if I wanted soft water, I said no..just want the sulfur smell gone...and he sells me this Iron Cleer.....and we have no iron. I think I'll just turn it over to my lawyer. Thanks for all your help !!

Just a couple of thoughts about pursuing the matter with a lawyer--I think you said, or implied, that the system Culligan sold you took care of the sulfur problem for a couple of years before it stopped working and that after a service visit it worked again for a couple of weeks before again stopping working. If I have reasonably summarized the facts then the salesman sold you equipment that did what you asked "just want the sulfur smell gone". I think you also told us that there was no charge for the service call when the unit was fixed for two weeks so it is not clear what course of action you would pursue on the repair.

[Gary Slusser]

vnvet, you have an air pump system. The compressor adds air to the first tank and maintains the volume of air in the tank. Usually the compressor runs with the water pump for part of the pump run, yours may not do either. The black part you took apart opens and closes to maintain that head of air, so it has to vent excess air. It looks like they do that through the drain lin of the filter.

The air vent tank has a water inlet diffuser that is used to break up the column of water in to many different streams as it enters the tank. It will be installed on the bottom of the in/out head. It can block up. If the black part (vent) blocks up air can't be vented and that can cause a flow reduction.

The tank bottom will have a build up of any oxidized material (mostly from iron (rust) and if not flushed out etc., it can block up the very narrow slits in the distributor tube's bottom basket. The basket allows water into the bottom of the distributor tube, to go up through it and out to the filter. The line from the first tank into the filter inlet can block up too but that happens only with iron or IRB (iron reducing bacteria). IRB can also block other things like the mineral in the filter. Some air vent tanks have a bottom drain to allow them to be flushed to keep the bottom clean.

You have a terrible installation that does not allow the equipment to be worked on such as in your situation. It is right up against a wall and you will have to cut the lines to/from it to unscrew the head. Usually that's not a problem if you have room to do it but you'll have to pull the tank out to unscrew the head because the wall and filter are so close. Use unions to reinstall it.

Before you do anything else make sure the compressor runs and the vent vents air. If so then clean the diffuser and bottom basket if needed and the bottom of the tank if there is no drain. If there is a drain you should have full line pressure and flow out the drain, if not take the tank apart and clean things.

If that tank is all good, the filter control and/or mineral is probably blocked up. Or, that disposable filter cartridge past the filter is. Before you do anything remove that cartridge and see what happens to your flow.

You say something about your well pump runs frequently and for short lengths of time. This equipment should not have anything to do with the operation of the pump or pressure tank; unless the compressor has raised the pressure in the first tank too high but even then your pump should run longer than 5 seconds was it? You should check the air pressure in your pressure tank with no water in the tank. It should be 1-2 psi less than the turn on the pump pressure switch setting. I. E. 30 on 50 off would be 20-29 psi with no water in the tank. If the pressure is not right adjust it. That can also cause your pressure/flow problem.

You can install a pressure gauge on the vent tank head if there is plugged 1/4" hole. And then used to check/adjust the psi out of the compressor can be adjusted only if needed and no one but Culligan can tell you what it should be.

p.s. thanks for serving.

[Peter Griffin]

Looks like you have bypass valves there, so bypass the whole setup and let me know if your pump still cycles and if your water pressure increases.

[vnvet]

When the system is bypassed the pump runs normally and the pressure increases.

[vnvet]

Just a couple of thoughts about pursuing the matter with a lawyer--I think you said, or implied, that the system Culligan sold you took care of the sulfur problem for a couple of years before it stopped working and that after a service visit it worked again for a couple of weeks before again stopping working. If I have reasonably summarized the facts then the salesman sold you equipment that did what you asked "just want the sulfur smell gone". I think you also told us that there was no charge for the service call when the unit was fixed for two weeks so it is not clear what course of action you would pursue on the repair.

Agreed....selling someone more than they need isn't illegal. There were 2 service calls over a 10 day period, one was $170.00 the other was no charge.

[Peter Griffin]

If the pump acts normally with the bypass shut off then the air control pump is putting more air into the tank than it should. No matter though because this is not something that you can adjust or fiddle with. You are going to have to get the Culligan man out there again. On the upside though, they should not charge you for the call.

[vnvet]

My guess is they will now go back to their original diagnosis and tell me I need a rebed for $700 +.

[Gary Slusser]

My guess is they will now go back to their original diagnosis and tell me I need a rebed for $700 +.
And yet a service guy has also told you that you didn't need to rebed it and did something and it worked fine for a couple weeks.

All water treatment equipment requires maintenance at times. An air pump system requires a bit more and sooner than others because there are more parts, like this first tank and the compressor and the vent.

Look at the bottom of your control valve and see if there are separate inlet/outlet connections where the control attaches to the tank or not. If not then you have an industry standard tank and the valve simply unscrews out of the tank and you could rebed the tank yourself right in your basement in an hour or so IF it needs to be done. You can buy the mineral from Culligan if they will sell it to you or online for much less than they will want. Rather than it being Birm, it may be Centaur carbon of regular carbon. It may be something like Cullex which used to be Pyrolox.

Before you do anything else, get raw water tests for iron and pH. Hardness would be good too, and manganese if you could get it.

Did you read my last reply?

I suggest you study my last reply, print it out or have it on your monitor as you call Culligan and get the manager or the owner of the dealership on the phone and calmly explain the situation and ask how the system works. Ask questions based on my reply and get an idea of what was done on the last service call. Find out what media is in the filter if they'll tell you. Tell him there is no pressure gauge on their system and ask how they can check or adjust the pressure of the compressor without a pressure gauge.

I think I mentioned this in my last reply but, you or they should add a pressure gauge to the air vent tank or plumbing there so you can see the pressure in it.

Ask if there shouldn't be a check valve on the inlet to the vent tank.

[Bob999]

The discussion here has zeroed in on the problem being with the air injection system and with the air injection tank--your answer to Peter's question about the well pump operating normally when the system is bypassed strongly suggests the problem is with the air injection system. There is no media in the air injection tank--the media is in the second tank that has the box on top that is labeled Iron Cleer. The fact that the service tech was able to get the system working without replacing media further supports the diagnosis that the problem is not with the second tank with media. Gary's suggestion of trying to get more information about your system from the installing dealer is, in my view, a good one.

I am guessing that space was/is at a premium where your system is installed but if you end up opening the system up I join the other posters in urging that you do the reconnection/reinstall after repairs with an eye to future service--that means using unions whereever a pipe needs to be broken and installing separate bypases for each part of the system--air injection and filter--so they can be separately bypassed and serviced.

[Akpsdvan]

I am still going with the first tank, the one that gets the air as to the reason for the lower flow rate.. some thing is in the inlet or outlet of that tank that is cutting down the flow through the total system.

[vnvet]

And yet a service guy has also told you that you didn't need to rebed it and did something and it worked fine for a couple weeks.

All water treatment equipment requires maintenance at times. An air pump system requires a bit more and sooner than others because there are more parts, like this first tank and the compressor and the vent.

Look at the bottom of your control valve and see if there are separate inlet/outlet connections where the control attaches to the tank or not. If not then you have an industry standard tank and the valve simply unscrews out of the tank and you could rebed the tank yourself right in your basement in an hour or so IF it needs to be done. You can buy the mineral from Culligan if they will sell it to you or online for much less than they will want. Rather than it being Birm, it may be Centaur carbon of regular carbon. It may be something like Cullex which used to be Pyrolox.

Before you do anything else, get raw water tests for iron and pH. Hardness would be good too, and manganese if you could get it.

Did you read my last reply?

I suggest you study my last reply, print it out or have it on your monitor as you call Culligan and get the manager or the owner of the dealership on the phone and calmly explain the situation and ask how the system works. Ask questions based on my reply and get an idea of what was done on the last service call. Find out what media is in the filter if they'll tell you. Tell him there is no pressure gauge on their system and ask how they can check or adjust the pressure of the compressor without a pressure gauge.

I think I mentioned this in my last reply but, you or they should add a pressure gauge to the air vent tank or plumbing there so you can see the pressure in it.

Ask if there shouldn't be a check valve on the inlet to the vent tank.



I did read your earlier reply Gary, Thank you...I will work my way through the list, starting with the water test.

[Bob999]

Here is a link to a description of an aeration system with diagrams. It may not exactly match your system but I think you will find it useful in understanding the description Gary has written.

http://www.pwgazette.com/aermax.htm