softener introducting air into my water lines

[hunch1784]

I have a GE whole house water softener and every morning my water lines would have alot of air in them. I was suspicious that it was the softener allow air to get in my lines because there are no leaks. I bypassed the softener via the bypass valve on the unit itself and I have not had any air in my lines since I did this 4 days ago. Does anyone have any suggestions on what my problem could be and how I could fix it?

[Akpsdvan]

Make sure that the brine line nut is tight and that there are no leaks in the 3/8 tubing going into the brine tank.

The brine line would be the only place that air could get into the system. The other thing that could be going on is the float assembly is not closing when there is no more water.. make sure that the brine pick up end is clear and seating correctly.

[Gary Slusser]

If it was possible that air sucked in through the brine line could get out into the plumbing, and I don't think it can with a downflow softener, then this softener is up flow or would have to have regenerated every night to have air in the lines every morning. I doubt the softener is regenerating every night but a small GE might. Do they make an up flow?

I think it may be the hot side that has air in it and it may be coming from the water heater. Why bypassing the softener would prevent the air is beyond me.

[Skip Wolverton]

To check and see if the unit is causing the problem, advance the unit into a brine draw cycle. Slowly pull the float assembly out of the brine tank. On the bottom of the styrofoam float is a rubber that seals when the water is drawn out. So with the unit in a draw and you pull the float out, the rod that the float rides on should not move. If you are able to move it up and down, the seal is bad allowing air to be drawn into the unit.

[Akpsdvan]

Very good lay out of how to... sorry that I was not more clear, but you have made it clearer..

What one puts in , one gets out.

ie iron free water into water heater, iron free water out of water heater.. if there is iron in the hot water but not the cold then the water heater is in need of replacement.

[Gary Slusser]

To check and see if the unit is causing the problem, advance the unit into a brine draw cycle. Slowly pull the float assembly out of the brine tank. On the bottom of the styrofoam float is a rubber that seals when the water is drawn out. So with the unit in a draw and you pull the float out, the rod that the float rides on should not move. If you are able to move it up and down, the seal is bad allowing air to be drawn into the unit.
I use semi transparent (opaque) brine line so you can see air bubbles in it just by looking at the brine line during slow rinse/brine draw.

But if air is sucked into the resin tank during slow rinse/brine draw (the brining cycle position) that goes through the tank and out the drain line with the slow rinse water, how does the air get trapped and out into the house plumbing?

If there is a private well, it's more likely that the air is from the pump sucking air or the water level in the well falling to the inlet to the pump.

[Bob999]

But if air is sucked into the resin tank during slow rinse/brine draw (the brining cycle position) that goes through the tank and out the drain line with the slow rinse water, how does the air get trapped and out into the house plumbing?

With a downflow softener the slow rinse/brining flow is down through the tank and back up through the distribution tube to the head and out the drain. It is easy for air to be trapped in the top of the tank if it is introduced during the slow rinse/brine cycle. If there is a lot of air in the tank then a high service flow can carry the air down through the bed and out with the supply water.

[Akpsdvan]

With a downflow softener the slow rinse/brining flow is down through the tank and back up through the distribution tube to the head and out the drain. It is easy for air to be trapped in the top of the tank if it is introduced during the slow rinse/brine cycle. If there is a lot of air in the tank then a high service flow can carry the air down through the bed and out with the supply water.

What He said...............................

The Home owner said that the air was not there when the unit was put into bypass............. but there when the unit was in service.... where else is the air going to get in if there is no leak around the valve?????

[Gary Slusser]

With a downflow softener the slow rinse/brining flow is down through the tank and back up through the distribution tube to the head and out the drain. It is easy for air to be trapped in the top of the tank if it is introduced during the slow rinse/brine cycle. If there is a lot of air in the tank then a high service flow can carry the air down through the bed and out with the supply water.
The problem with that is after slow rinse/brine draw, most softeners have an upflow backwash that would flush the air out the drain line.

Why the air problem stopped when the unit was put into by pass may be due to an air leak in the bypass valve when it is in the service position. Or the volume of water used for a regeneration is causing the pump to suck air; or if there is a jet pump which can suck air but not leak water at a loose fitting.

[Skip Wolverton]

I use semi transparent (opaque) brine line so you can see air bubbles in it just by looking at the brine line during slow rinse/brine draw.

But if air is sucked into the resin tank during slow rinse/brine draw (the brining cycle position) that goes through the tank and out the drain line with the slow rinse water, how does the air get trapped and out into the house plumbing?

If there is a private well, it's more likely that the air is from the pump sucking air or the water level in the well falling to the inlet to the pump.
Your wrong about the air not staying in the tank. I recently went on a svc call where the valve was in a brine cycle for over 2 days. It took me 3 complete revolutions of the valve to get all the air out. And changing the line would be ok but, you are only isolating the valve and not the brine line. Whenever possible, I keep everything the same. I just pull the float assembly out of the brine tank to get it to "check" and see if it is sucking air.

[Bob999]

The problem with that is after slow rinse/brine draw, most softeners have an upflow backwash that would flush the air out the drain line.



You are correct that IF he has a softener with an upflow backwash after the brine/slow rinse that the air would be flushed out. Don't know where you get statistics that most softeners have that feature if you are talking about installed softeners. Most older softeners don't have a backwash after the brine/slow rinse and the poster told us nothing about the age of the softener.

[Gary Slusser]

Your wrong about the air not staying in the tank. I recently went on a svc call where the valve was in a brine cycle for over 2 days. It took me 3 complete revolutions of the valve to get all the air out. And changing the line would be ok but, you are only isolating the valve and not the brine line. Whenever possible, I keep everything the same. I just pull the float assembly out of the brine tank to get it to "check" and see if it is sucking air.
Can you name me a brand of softener that does not have a rinse cycle after the slow rinse/brine draw cycle. And if it does, the trapped air goes out the drain line during that cycle right?

I'm not saying change existing brine lines. Since 1987 I have always used/ordered softeners with an opaque brine line. That type brine line allows anyone to check the brine system for air suction leaks except at the control valve end of the brine line.

I don't know how without a brine line that will allow seeing air bubbles that you know it is sucking air when you remove the air check from the salt tank and stick it in a bucket of water. How do you see evidence of air bubbles or know it's sucking air? If it isn't sucking brine water, it doesn't mean it's sucking air, there are a number of different causes of not sucking brine water.

[Skip Wolverton]

Can you name me a brand of softener that does not have a rinse cycle after the slow rinse/brine draw cycle. And if it does, the trapped air goes out the drain line during that cycle right?

I'm not saying change existing brine lines. Since 1987 I have always used/ordered softeners with an opaque brine line. That type brine line allows anyone to check the brine system for air suction leaks except at the control valve end of the brine line.

I don't know how without a brine line that will allow seeing air bubbles that you know it is sucking air when you remove the air check from the salt tank and stick it in a bucket of water. How do you see evidence of air bubbles or know it's sucking air? If it isn't sucking brine water, it doesn't mean it's sucking air, there are a number of different causes of not sucking brine water.
1> The OP was talking about a GE softener. I've never seen an opaque brine line on one.
2. I never said the unit didn't have a rinse cycle after the brine.
3. If all the brine is dranw out and the air check does not seat, the unit is drawing air. If it's drawing air, it's not good.

[Bob999]

Can you name me a brand of softener that does not have a rinse cycle after the slow rinse/brine draw cycle.

Fleck 9000
Fleck 2510
Autotrol® 255 Valve / 400 Series Controls

[Gary Slusser]

Fleck 9000
Fleck 2510
Autotrol® 255 Valve / 400 Series Controls

You're wrong about the 9000 and 2510.

Look at the spec sheets for them and you'll see Rapid Rinse listed after brine draw, that is an upflow backwash and Fleck valves have had that for decades:

Product Features
• Fully adjustable 5-cycle top mount control delivers
controlled upflow backwash, downflow brining and slow
rinse, rapid rinse, brine refill and downflow service

Looking it up, yes you're right about Autotrol.

So you're wrong on 2 out of 3 that you listed.

[Bob999]

You're wrong about the 9000 and 2510.

Look at the spec sheets for them and you'll see Rapid Rinse listed after brine draw, that is an upflow backwash and Fleck valves have had that for decades:

Product Features
• Fully adjustable 5-cycle top mount control delivers
controlled upflow backwash, downflow brining and slow
rinse, rapid rinse, brine refill and downflow service

Looking it up, yes you're right about Autotrol.

So you're wrong on 2 out of 3 that you listed.


I think you are the one that is mistaken. Rapid rinse is NOT a backwash--rapid rinse is down flow while backwash is upflow. A 5 cycle valve provides 1. Backwash; 2. brining/slow rinse; 3. Rapid rinse; 4. brine refill; 5. Service

If you go to page 44 of the manual for the 9000 valve you will see that rapid rinse (also known as settling rinse) is downflow. http://www.pentairwatertreatment.com/PentairFiles/Pentair%20Water%20Treatment/Manuals/9000%20Service%20Manual%2040944.pdf

I expect an apology for your incorrect statement that my post was incorrect.

[Akpsdvan]

If the bypass or the valve is the reason for the air.. that means that there would be water coming out.. if there is a leak for air to get in , then water can get out of that same leak.

Air will find a way of working past the media that is in the tank. When there is a large amount of air it is more likely to happen, if there is only an inch or so of air at the top of the tank then it will most likely stay there til the next backwash, but if there is more air, say 17 inches of it, then it is more likely to work its way through the media and into the house.

[Akpsdvan]

Yeah I was looking for Rapid Rinse and didn't read the rest of what I copied/pasted. I see that manual is dated 2006. I looked through it some but can't find anything in it about an option with final rinse and brine refill being combined. That may be the version I used that had a second BW. IIRC (Bob, that's if I recall correctly) to enable that etc. the supplier ordered the valves with different colored cams (white and black), one was stock, the other was 'extended' for the lack of a better term. And IIRC (Bob, that's if I recall correctly) the different pistons were like green and gray but I'm not sure. Maybe they don't do that anymore for water conservation or, they don't have it in a consumer manual which is what you posted. That does not mean there is another manual for distributors/suppliers but there may be.

Class will be in order..
White cam for 1500,2500,2750 was for a combo of the rapid rinse and brine tank refill
Black cam for the same valves was for a rapid rinse and then a brine tank refill.
The pistons for the 5600 are different.. black end plug is for filter valve, white is for softener , green is for the 6700 valve and the orange one is for the WaterSoft 5600 wana be.

[Akpsdvan]

But the owner did not have the air problem with the softener off line, only on did the owner have the problem with the air..

If it is the well pump, be it in the well or a jet pump that is bring the air in it is going to do so with or with out the system in service.

[Peter Griffin]

Yep, that be true now that I go back and read the OP. So.... guess we're back to that durn ole brine line :)

[Akpsdvan]

I wounder if some salt got down the brine well ... and there is a piece of salt keeping that plug from seating when it needs to seat....

[weekend warrior]

You guys may have solved my problem. Over the past year I have had air bubbles in my water. I thought that I was beginning to have problems with the water supply in my well. Then I began to notice that the more I ran my water over several days the bubbles diminished or went away entirely depending on how much water I used. Then whenever my Culligan water softener cycled the bubbles came back. I searched and came across this forum. I went down and took my brine valve apart. I quickly discovered that the problem was me. I took the whole thing apart last year to clean it (including the brine valve) and put the brine valve back together wrong. I purchased a service manual for my water softener 26 years ago and after looking at the illustration and how I had put the valve together a year ago I quickly saw the problem. I will let you know how things are after a few cycles of my water softener.