Older toliets. Need some advice

[nanllyn]

We just bought a 60+ year old home. It has 2.5 baths(which the fixtures and toliets are original to the home!). There are two toliets on the 1st level, one at each end of the home and one in the basement. All of them seem to have trouble flushing. Most just swirl and never really empty the bowl. It takes 3-4 flushed to get them to flush. Also it takes almost 10-15 minutes for them to fill the back to be able to flush again. We are on well/cistern water, the well has 2ppm of iron in it. And we have a septic system. The septic was inspected and flushed prior to buying and we were told it all checked out. The piping between the home and the septic was all new 3 years ago. The pipes in the home, most are original cast iron but some pvc. Well the toliets totally clogged one week from moving in the home. We had a plumber come out and they snaked from the outside clean out as well as from the clean out in the basement. The one toliet (on the upstairs) seemed to flush a little better but after 3 flushes it is back to just swirling and not really flushing properly. The other two are not really functional at all it seems. I hope I have given enough info for this.
My question is should we just change out the insides of the tank? Should we buy new toliets? Also I saw there were choices between rim jet action flush and vortex siphon flush. Which is better? Any suggestions sure would be appreciated.

[jadnashua]

If the toilets are original, they probably use as much as 7 gallons per flush. A new one uses 1.6 gallons max. If you noticed a change when they cleaned out a line, you probably have problems other than the toilets. Changing them might not help with that part, but it may help your leach lines/septic system by decreasing the volume of water it needs to process. Terry has some test reports on toilets...I personally have replaced all of mine in my home with Totos and am pleased with their performance. What is your water pressure like? If it is 'normal' (40-60 or so), then the length of time to refill the toilet may somewhat be a factor in that the old toilets use a lot of water (as much as 4x the new ones - it varies and may not be that much). You could replace the fill valve/ball cock with a new version - Fluidmaster makes a decent one, and they are inexpensive - their valve is eitherfully on or off and might fill quicker. Make sure the holes in the tank are normal sized, you don't want to tear the old one out and find the new one doesn't fit. My unprofessional opinion.

[plumber1]

New ballcocks and flush valves use the same size holes in the china.
I don't believe they will use more than 3.? gal. per flush.
If it were my 3 toilets, I would start with one toilet and use one gal of meuratic acid.
Do it like this: Dip the water out of the bowl. Dry off the rim flush holes and then tape the holes as best you can. Pour the acid down the overflow pipe. Let it stand in the bowl a few min. Remove the tape. Now flush. There is probably a jet or a water flow inlet at the bottom of the bowl. Take a coat hanger and make sure that there is no calcium tn that opening. Then clean the rim flush with the coat hanger.
Do a paper test. Make sure the water is almost up to the overflow in the tank and that the water in the bowl is up to it's overflow point. Now Flush Do that and if you get results then change the ballcock.
Let me know how you did......Acid may cost $3. Ballcock $6 Thats what I would do.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Muriatic Acid does a great job of bringing back old toilets to proper flushing. It's the calcium buildup you cannot get to with a wire hanger that can alter the angle of the bowl rim jets to create the quickest vortex for a siphon jet flush.

[plumber1]

Yes, I'm aware of that, but why not give it a try?

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Sorry about that; I didn't even read your post until I read your response....thinking what you was referring to but now I know what your talking about, the wire hanger. By all means the use of the coat hanger works really good. I'm lazy so I just use more acid; keeps me from getting down on my knees and using a mirror. I like the idea of tape holding the acid in, I charge for a gallon but it would be more effective.

[Kristi]

lol...
you guys are giving me a good chuckle, and teaching me new tricks :)
you sound tired.

I say new toilet dammit! every good fixture deserves a retirement at some point in its long life! 60 years of service is long enough...

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Yes. Very tired; worked till 10:30 setting my 6th Kohler Wellworth toilet in a week and a half. Seems like there must be a sale or something on those Kohler's. :confused: The idiot gc/drywaller set the wall too close to the flange and now the customer is going to have to cut the drywall and inset the tank. I advised them not to use a 10" rough for the reason of a short throat on the toilet, teenage boy living downstairs.

[Kristi]

hiya Rugged,
how about offsetting that flange? squeak an extra 1.5"? I had an extremely heavy week in the toilet dept myself, but not with Kohler. Here, I'll show you the tank I had today - poor woman, it cracked in the middle of the night and woke her up with the sound. first with the crack, then with the woosh of water flooding her bathroom/hallway...
Clean tank, hey? A pleasure except for the jagged shards of porcelain

[Kristi]

here's the other side:

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Oh my. Those pics instill fear that could happen to me someday on a toilet. Thinking that even though they supply the toilet, that could easily happen to anyone. I can imagine she had a mess on her hands bigtime. :eek: I wish I could offset the flange; I used a 4X4 flush fit and the pipe is only 2" (basement concrete floor) and immediately turns into a 90. The gc actually had a falling out with the homeowner and she wasn't suprised when she was told of the wall being set too close to the flange. When I roughed in the drain and water lines the bottom of the wall was waving in the wind, not even anchored to the floor. He should've known.

[Terry]

It's funny how different our jobs can be.

I spend a lot of time removing Kohler Wellworths and Mansfield Alto toilets and replacing them with the good stuff.

The other thing I notice, is how many older toilets from the seventies are developing cracks in the porcelain.
Kristi, Nice pictures of cracks in the American Standard toilet.

When I need a 10" rough toilet, my options are

Toto w/G-Max and the 10" Unifit (http://www.terrylove.com/wc/unifit.htm)
Gerber Ultraflush (http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28088) with the 10" rough tank

I would never consider cutting drywall to install a toilet.
There are too many toilet options that work well on a 10" rough.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

I tried to get her to budge off of what she had, the wellworth she bought 8 months ago when the project started. I mentioned Toto's and even this site, but I swear everything she bought for the project had to be on sale. The very reason I believe there has been a rash of those Wellworths being installed. I'm not real fond of them, even though I own a Kohler Cimarron that never stays clean in the bowl, never, but flushes really good. The insides on the Wellworth are no different than what I service and repair all the time. I told her about the Toto Gmax 10", she got interested as I told her that was the only 10" I would install without having to worry about callbacks with problems. I don't know much about the other products you mentioned but the kicker is when I mentioned the price, her first instinct was, "what is the cheapest 10" toilet I can buy?" I cannot understand how anyone, anyone can spend $15,000 on a basement remodel with all the bells and whistles, 48" flat screen tv and won't think of buying a quality toilet. Makes no sense to me, especially the idea of cutting drywall. That idea might not fly either because I believe the tank needs to go back an 1.5" like Kristi mentioned. Funny you mentioned Mansfield. The first thing this woman said to me before I walked in the house was that her one upstairs toilet had a problem with the handle being hard to push down. Mansfield #160 (210) flush valve seal in need of replacement.

[Terry]

And yet, when you see what they drive, it's something like a Lexus or Mercedes.

It makes me laugh to think of all the savings they get when they're plunging their toilets in their nice suits.

$12,000 granite counter tops in the kitchen and a $92 special in the bathroom.

[plumber1]

People have been like that way for ever.
I asked that same question 40 years ago.
It has to go the same with windows, light fixtures, heating systems, kitchen cupboards, etc..