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hygron
01-29-2010, 11:00 PM
I cut the power, and replaced pressure switch. Pump still ran, and I assumed pipe to outlet of pump had broken allowing pump to run. After pulling pump up, and replacing coupling to pvc which broke off completely right as I was pulling the pump out of drop pipe; I replaced pump into well, and cut on power. pump is still running, but have absolutely no pressure.

Is this possibly a sign that the impeller has broken,,and although pump is running, no water is pumping up the line?

Thanks ahead for your help. Great forum, hygron

RayMan
01-30-2010, 12:02 AM
Is there enough water in the well to pump or is the well going to a dry state right after the pump is turned on? How deep is the well?

Maybe a hole or crack somewhere in the line not allowing pressure to build if it's got water.

Peter Griffin
01-30-2010, 05:27 AM
Either the well is dry or the pump is bad.

hygron
01-30-2010, 11:55 AM
Line was full of water, when I cut the manifold loose. I think we would've noticed that the well was running dry before 2 days ago when water pressure abruptly stopped.

Well is a deep well drilled after failure/drying of shallow well. Water is great and plentiful, but pump is only 30 feet below the surface...give or take a couple feet

cacher_chick
01-30-2010, 01:58 PM
Don't know where you are located but I'm guessing the line between the well and the house is frozen shut. If so, your pump will eventually be damaged from dead-heading the pressure if it is not already.

RayMan
01-30-2010, 02:54 PM
Can you open a line before going into your pressure tank and run the pump for 5 minutes or so to make sure its pumping a good flow of water and eliminate the pump as the problem?

Waterwelldude
01-30-2010, 03:18 PM
You said: After pulling pump up, and replacing coupling to pvc which broke off

When you glued it back, did you use cleaner or primer on the fitting?
If you did, it has probably fallen off. Putting primer or cleaner on pump drop pipe is a big mistake. It will not hold.
It should be sanded and then glued.

hygron
01-30-2010, 04:45 PM
Don't know where you are located but I'm guessing the line between the well and the house is frozen shut. If so, your pump will eventually be damaged from dead-heading the pressure if it is not already.

No. It isn't. We live in the Francis Marion forest, In S.C. It was an almost freezing night before well pressure went away. I know the main line is good because I back filled it by adding a threaded T, to a valve right behind the normal feed under the home. I added the hose from neighbors water supply here, and shut valve at well. It filled the line to the well valve. So main lined filled, and house is supplied with having to replumb everything. thanks

hygron
01-30-2010, 04:48 PM
Can you open a line before going into your pressure tank and run the pump for 5 minutes or so to make sure its pumping a good flow of water and eliminate the pump as the problem?Definitely tried that. Nice common sense question, tough.

hygron
01-30-2010, 04:53 PM
You said: After pulling pump up, and replacing coupling to pvc which broke off

When you glued it back, did you use cleaner or primer on the fitting?
If you did, it has probably fallen off. Putting primer or cleaner on pump drop pipe is a big mistake. It will not hold.
It should be sanded and then glued.

I did not add primer. I cleaned it with a rag, and glued the fitting onto drop pipe, then dropped it back into hole. wire, and rope is fairly snug to pipe, and motor; So I don't think pump fell off pipe. I am testing old pump I replaced a few years ago before I knew what to look for.

Neighbor allowed me to hook up line to his well, so we have water for a couple days until I replace or fix this pump. Leads me to another question. I see refurbished pumps online. Can I fix my own Flotec pump? Where can I get an impeller kit?

hygron
01-30-2010, 05:00 PM
Now that I have read pertinent submersible well pump threads, I have deiced to re-plumb entire system using 160-200psi PE pipe, whether I buy a new pump or not. Is this feasible? From what I read it is the best option, and can be used to very inexpensively re-new my water supply lines.

I already use 1-1/4 inch PE to my greenhouse. I want to run from pump to bladder with 1-1/4" or 1" whatever size tank outlet is and then out to house with 1" PE pipe. Can I use 1" PE pipe all the way to the house from bladder tank? For the entire job?

RayMan
01-30-2010, 05:05 PM
Is there a leak in the drop pipe which will not allow you to build pressure? I don't know the casing size but since its only 30 feet you might be able to see it with a good light unless its a crack only running down the side of the of the drop pipe. If not , is there a slow leak in the bladder of the pressure tank or the cut out (small bolt) on the pressure control switch is set to low allowing the pump to just run.

RayMan
01-30-2010, 05:17 PM
Sorry, On the pressure control switch I meant to say set to high which will make the pump continue to run. Here is a site that gives you a lot of info on the pressure control switch you might want to check out http://www.inspectapedia.com/water/WaterPumpAdjust.htm

hygron
01-30-2010, 05:34 PM
Thanks for the great link. Nah. We had a pressure switch that was locked on in the beginning of this problem. It had been working great for a couple years. I immediately switched out the pressure sw., although it appeared to work despite one contact being pitted. Then when I cut power back on, I noticed pump running. You could feel the vibration in the well system. So I assumed, because this happened a few years ago, the coupling had cracked at outlet to pump. So we pulled the pump and replaced the coupling. I dropped pipe, wire, rope, and pump back into casing. Wired it up with an open line short of the tank/sw. etc...and no water pumped out. Well here we are.

Read all posts above to see where I am going with this please. Thanks RayMan,

hygron

cacher_chick
01-30-2010, 05:52 PM
PE is fine but make sure you are getting PE rated for potable water not for irrigation.

Not sure how your components are set up. In areas that freeze the plumbing code will specify the depth that the line must be buried to protect it from freezing. The pressure tank must also be protected. Here the well tank is in the basement or in the house if there is no basement. The pressure switch must be right at the pressure tank.

Glued PVC should not be used for drop pipe in a well. PVC made for drop pipe is threaded and uses threaded couplings.

Flotec pumps are not rated well by any water professionals I know. I think "junk" is the word commonly used.

hygron
01-30-2010, 06:22 PM
So... potable PE. OK. got it. We have very few freezing nights. Even fewer days. This winter has been much colder than normal in some respects. Like the mid 20 degree weather we are getting the next 2 evenings.

Most folks here have a casing, to bladder tank with pressure sw. righyt there within 2 feet or less of the tank. Mine is T up out of main pipe. If I build a small pump house and put a light in there, I will be safe year round. As far as water pipe, I believe we do not have to go much deeper than 6-12" deep.

thanks for the input on glue. since I am re-plumbing this is great info, aside from the fact I plan on using PE. But, threaded drop pipe...check.

Without going over the top price wise. What do professionals consider a decent reliable pump on the inexpensive side?

Gary Slusser
01-30-2010, 06:42 PM
I suggest doing a few electrical tests with a multimeter on the wires from the switch to the pump. With the power on to the switch you can scheck for voltage across the switch and then with it off and the wires to the pump off the switch, check for ohms and shorts. If you have a control box, check the wires from there to the pump by removing the cover of the box (with the power off). You can also check for voltage and then with the power off, ohms, opens and shorts at the well by undoing the wire nuts under the well casing cap.

Start here;
http://www.franklin-electric.com/business/WaterSystems/service/AIM/page-13.aspx

hygron
01-30-2010, 07:15 PM
We tested it for over 10 amps, and drawing 240 something volts. I believe.

Did not check ohms when turned off. I still think impeller failed, and pump is running, but impeller is not. We'll find out tomorrow. Thanks

Waterwelldude
01-30-2010, 07:33 PM
What HP pump do you have. If its a 1hp 10 amps are right for the pump and motor to be doing right.
How long did you let the glue dry before you put it back down?
Your glued fitting may have come apart.
Like has already been said. Glued fittings on well drop pipe is a bad idea.

RayMan
01-30-2010, 07:52 PM
Do you think you still have a leak or blockage somewhere and thats what burnt the pump up or was it a defective pump the whole time? Sounds like you are in or close to the Appalachian Mountains where the freeze line would be 18-24 inches, be sure to pack the soil real well when you cover your pipe, loose soil will freeze deeper then packed especially if it's shaded in winter. I run a Jacuzzi Pump which is Franklin Electric so far its never had a problem after 12 years of service. Even pulling 30 feet is a pain when you have to do it 3 or 4 times. Good Luck and enjoy the bottled water for now.

hygron
01-30-2010, 08:12 PM
As I said. I have the entire thing apart. There is no blockage. In a post above I mentioned I am in SC. An hour or so SW of Myrtle Beach. I am pulling pump back out tomorrow.

ballvalve
02-01-2010, 01:34 AM
You said its a DEEP well and then the pump is at 30 feet - what is that about? You should have bench [barrel] tested the pump before reinstallation on PE pipe. Learn how to assemble PE correctly before doing it - LONG brass or SS barbs with 2 or 3 not chinese clamps per joint, warm the pipe with hot water not a torch. You said the pump was tight on the wires and rope ..... no no no no no. Loosen it up to hang on the PE. That brand pump is poor quality, but likely has a Franklin motor that is good. You might re-use the motor and just buy a good pump head.

Ichabod
02-01-2010, 03:34 PM
If your pump is at 30 feet, is it deep enough? I live about 100 miles from you and I, like you, I(I think) get my water from the floridan aquifer. My pump is about 130 feet down and I think the well is about 3 or 4 hundred feet deep total. I know the aquifer depth varies a lot, but 30 feet doesn't sound deep enough to me. Have you tried to determine the water level?

Ichabod

hygron
02-01-2010, 07:36 PM
You said its a DEEP well and then the pump is at 30 feet - what is that about? You should have bench [barrel] tested the pump before reinstallation on PE pipe. Learn how to assemble PE correctly before doing it - LONG brass or SS barbs with 2 or 3 not chinese clamps per joint, warm the pipe with hot water not a torch. You said the pump was tight on the wires and rope ..... no no no no no. Loosen it up to hang on the PE. That brand pump is poor quality, but likely has a Franklin motor that is good. You might re-use the motor and just buy a good pump head.

I agree as to 30 feet. That is what we inherited from previous owner. I am looking into possibly dropping the pump further in. To try and get an idea of the true depth of the well....Can I use a heavy plumb bob, and lower it thru the casing to guage the depth?

Thanks for the info on PE fittings. Really! That is the kind of support that really helps. So thread a long brass fitting into pump, and the use high quality clamps (at least 2) connected to PE. Got it.
How about a link to a supplier of PE so I can actually see it. I have run across more PEX than PE in my searches (at least when searching for 1-1/4"). Or; is PEX the same thing, basically?

I might just use 1".
My local h'ware store has 1" blue PEX "potable" Can I bury blue PEX?

How about a link to a supplier of pump replacement? I apologize to Terry if posting links are against the rules. In that case, please disregard the link request. I wil be searching "grainger" etc, this evening due to your info. Now I know what to shop for.

And lastly; I realize you are right about the cable tension. It probably isn't as tight as I made out originally. My fault. thanks again, and to all the good folks who have added .02-.03 cents worth. Thanks

hygron
02-01-2010, 07:45 PM
If your pump is at 30 feet, is it deep enough? I live about 100 miles from you and I, like you, I(I think) get my water from the floridan aquifer. My pump is about 130 feet down and I think the well is about 3 or 4 hundred feet deep total. I know the aquifer depth varies a lot, but 30 feet doesn't sound deep enough to me. Have you tried to determine the water level?

IchabodI did actually realize that it might be a good idea to guage the well. As long as I am replacing the guts, I might as well upgrade to current methods, and try to drop the pump deeper.

Good news. The pump I pulled out when the threaded pvc broke off a few years ago ("Aermotor" brand), causing me to replace the pump with the current (Flotec) on bad advice...Tested good today. So at least I don't have to buy a pump as long as this one lasts. I think I still want to drop pump a bit deeper though.

Thanks again, and to all the good folks who have contributed. Thanks

Gary Slusser
02-02-2010, 12:13 PM
You should check for PE pipe with pump supply houses in your yellow pages under the heading Pumps. PE is pipe size meaning the ID is maintained where PEX is CTS (copper tubing size) where to OD is maintained meaning the ID is smaller than IPS (iron pipe size) pipe. PEX is not a good choice for drop pipe or underground from the well to the house. PE has been used for both for over 50 years and will be less expensive while I don't think you can buy PEX in as large rolls as PE pipe.

Since the inlet to the pump is at 30' or so, all the water under the pump is useless and, if you pull the water down to 30', the pump runs dry, so you're out of water until the well recovers some and that is no good for a pump and a pump with a thermal overload feature will shut it off until it cools and comes back on. Making you think there is something wrong with the pump etc..

hygron
02-02-2010, 01:45 PM
This is my 3rd attempt to post this. software has deleted my last 2 posts. Not very happy about that. So this is a condensed version :)

I found all supplies except brass barb fittings. I did find gray PVC fittings.

So I am going to use gray PVC fitting in pump to 1"PE clamped with 3 (non chinese) stainless hose clamps. thru new well cap, and adapting to old manifold. On outlet, they used 3/4" PVC. I am scrapping the entire run and adapting 1" PE to the house. Sound right?

As for well depth. I spoke with the son of the man who installed the well 15 years ago. The well was originally a shallow well. The drop pipe length is odd in his opinion. We figure that when the well was drilled to a deep well the owners didn't want to replace the casing, and in this area you cannot drop the pump past the casing or you will find sand and debris. That might be the reason the pump is only 30' deep. Our water level is approx. 7-8' below the ground. so I am well below the water level, just not into the sand. I am going to plumb bob for depth tomorrow when I pull pump rigging back out.

hygron

cacher_chick
02-02-2010, 03:04 PM
Grainger sells stainless steel hose barb fittings in all the common sizes. Remember that the pump (torquing motion) and pipe full of water (weight) will hopefully be hanging off this pipe assembly for many years. I wouldn't take any chances with plastic fittings.

Peter Griffin
02-02-2010, 03:13 PM
Don't use PVC or Nylon adapters or fittings. You can get brass or stainless steel from a plumbing supply house.

hygron
02-02-2010, 08:16 PM
I wanted to go to a plumbing supply house, but the round trip is 3 hours give or take. I have to have this finished tomorrow evening. I might try to get to Grainger. It is a little closer. I really do believe you 2, but the local guy still uses PVC. He liked the idea of going to PE instead of schedule 80, but said he would still use PVC fittings.

One question just for clarification, or to make sense of this. If schedule 80 PVC with threads can be used, then why wouldn't the PVC barb fitting work as well? Just for closure. Perhaps it is not as thick walled>?

You all are great to keep up with all this. Thanks

ballvalve
02-03-2010, 04:50 AM
You cannot use those 39 cent pvc fittings vertically. You need a Graingers stock number 5ym18 brass hose barb with rope fitting [or another without the rope hole] Go to 5YM18 item numbers page and you will see the sort of fittings you need. You must use a TURNED, machined barb if you like your pump to stay on the pipe. The machining provides a "fish hook" rather than the injection moulded junk that is softer than the pipe and without any bite.

Peter Griffin
02-03-2010, 12:20 PM
You cannot use those 39 cent pvc fittings vertically. You need a Graingers stock number 5ym18 brass hose barb with rope fitting [or another without the rope hole] Go to 5YM18 item numbers page and you will see the sort of fittings you need. You must use a TURNED, machined barb if you like your pump to stay on the pipe. The machining provides a "fish hook" rather than the injection moulded junk that is softer than the pipe and without any bite.



yes, yes, yes

Gary Slusser
02-04-2010, 10:55 AM
Although I agree with not using plastic or nylon fittings on drop pipe, I have never seen a sch 80 PVC insert or other type fitting that is not harder than PE pipe. And I've never seen any fish hook like barbs and I've worked with a lot of insert/barbed fittings in PE pipe to 500' deep.

I do not suggest a safety rope. They usually break just when you need one and it wants to fall down the well when they break and that can cause the pump to not come out of the well. That gets expensive real quick if you can't get the pump out.

hygron
02-04-2010, 01:59 PM
Well it is done. I wish you had posted yesterday Gary. I had to run all the way to Charleston to find 1-1/4 brass fitting. It took me stopping 4 places to try and get PE pipe. The Plumbing supply in Charleston, sold out of 1" PE 160 psi before I got there. So I had to chase that down to a mobile home, 'doit best" hardware store,and had to settle for 100psi PE. they are getting me some 160psi, but I might let her fly with the 100psi.
So there was 1 place in the entire eastern 1/2 of the state that had a 1-1/4 brass fitting to a 1" barb. Guess what!? After removing the bushing that had been used with the schedule 80 (bushing was nylon btw, and hadn't failed in 15 years) I grabbed my 4 hours of driving brass fitting to find that the outlet on my "aermotor" pump was 1-1/2". So I put the 1-1/2" nylon bushing back in the pump and inserted a galvanized 1" to barb fitting that I bought as a back up. Thanks God I bought that backup!

So new PE pipe, new galvanized fittings, spliced with an underground butt connected with shrink wrap and a double coating of Scotch super33, new well cap, and we have water again.

The only problem now is that the pressure switch is cutting on and off too quickly. My man at the Plumbing supply stated I needed pump to run for a minimum of 1 minute. Pump goes on for about 15 seconds and cuts off. I know that is bad. I am looking up the directions for adjusting the pressure switch, and I am going to run a pressure test on the tank; but tomorrow. I am sick, and have had enough of sweating in the cold for today. Hopefully the system won't take a dump before tomorrow. Thanks Good Folks of TerryLove.com DIY forums.

Roger

ballvalve
02-05-2010, 08:34 AM
I hope you hung it all at 30 feet again, otherwise the nylon bushing will be your next failure, and after that goes the galv. chinese barb. Why not Graingers instead of 4 hours driving? GS:I dont fish with my barb fittings, but a machined fitting has bite.

Peter Griffin
02-05-2010, 11:22 AM
You should check the pressure switch but the tank itself is more likely the problem. If you have a bladder type tank the pressure ( pump off, tank pressure drained) needs to be 2lbs less than the pump cut in. You may have a bad tank also. If you get water out of the air valve the bladder is gone.

Gary Slusser
02-05-2010, 11:51 AM
Well it is done. I wish you had posted yesterday Gary. I had to run all the way to Charleston to find 1-1/4 brass fitting. It took me stopping 4 places to try and get PE pipe. The Plumbing supply in Charleston, sold out of 1" PE 160 psi before I got there. So I had to chase that down to a mobile home, 'doit best" hardware store,and had to settle for 100psi PE. they are getting me some 160psi, but I might let her fly with the 100psi.

So there was 1 place in the entire eastern 1/2 of the state that had a 1-1/4 brass fitting to a 1" barb. Guess what!? After removing the bushing that had been used with the schedule 80 (bushing was nylon btw, and hadn't failed in 15 years) I grabbed my 4 hours of driving brass fitting to find that the outlet on my "aermotor" pump was 1-1/2". So I put the 1-1/2" nylon bushing back in the pump and inserted a galvanized 1" to barb fitting that I bought as a back up. Thanks God I bought that backup!

The only problem now is that the pressure switch is cutting on and off too quickly. My man at the Plumbing supply stated I needed pump to run for a minimum of 1 minute. Pump goes on for about 15 seconds and cuts off. I know that is bad.
I forget what size pump you have but it's probably a 1/2 hp so I don't think the nylon fitting is a problem at 30'.

The galvanized needs to go though, it will rust adding iron to your water.

The 100 psi should be OK at 30' but I would use at least 125 psi but 160 is best.

The PE and nylon will probably go forever unless the pump gets hot from no water etc..

What that guy meant about the pump running for a minute has nothing to do with the switch, it is the size of the pressure tank and the draw down gallons between pump runs. The pump should stay off for a minute (60 seconds off) so the motor can cool before running again. Less than that and the pump short cycles, and too little air pressure in the tank can cause that too. So 1-2 psi less air than the cutin setting of the switch. 30/50 gets 29-28 psi with no water in the tank.

hygron
02-05-2010, 02:24 PM
I hope you hung it all at 30 feet again, otherwise the nylon bushing will be your next failure, and after that goes the galv. chinese barb. Why not Graingers instead of 4 hours driving? GS:I dont fish with my barb fittings, but a machined fitting has bite.I did not have time to wait on grainger to order the part. I had no water for days, while researching how to correctly upgrade my well. Everything is working great. Like I said if you read my post. Roland Supply was the "only" place that had a fitting I could use "TODAY!" All quality parts. Not chinese. All well diggers, and commercial plumbers shop at the store Roland Supply for all their plumbing hardware.

I am not an idiot. Of course I hung the pump in the same spot, inside the casing. I have been a contractor all my life. I merely wanted good advice from knowledgable people, and I got it here. I needed the job done, and I have water. I am not a puss, and can handle pulling the dadgum thing out again once I can get the correct brass fittings. Sorry I did not do it exactly as you recommended. My wife really enjoyed her shower last night.

Thanks for your input. :)

hygron
02-05-2010, 02:41 PM
You should check the pressure switch but the tank itself is more likely the problem. If you have a bladder type tank the pressure ( pump off, tank pressure drained) needs to be 2lbs less than the pump cut in. You may have a bad tank also. If you get water out of the air valve the bladder is gone.I knew that Gary, thanks. I set my pressure switch last night, and I have better pressure than before, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the bladder tank...So far (fingers crossed). It wouldn't surprise me if something else (the tank) failed just because I replaced a big portion of the system with new stuff. Just like when you fix your car. Fix one thing, something else breaks...hope not. Later

hygron
02-05-2010, 02:53 PM
I forget what size pump you have but it's probably a 1/2 hp so I don't think the nylon fitting is a problem at 30'.

The galvanized needs to go though, it will rust adding iron to your water.

The 100 psi should be OK at 30' but I would use at least 125 psi but 160 is best.

The PE and nylon will probably go forever unless the pump gets hot from no water etc..

What that guy meant about the pump running for a minute has nothing to do with the switch, it is the size of the pressure tank and the draw down gallons between pump runs. The pump should stay off for a minute (60 seconds off) so the motor can cool before running again. Less than that and the pump short cycles, and too little air pressure in the tank can cause that too. So 1-2 psi less air than the cutin setting of the switch. 30/50 gets 29-28 psi with no water in the tank.Plan on getting the brass. Also; The store where I got the 100psi is getting 160psi within the week. plan on getting a roll of that, asap.

After adjusting. With the tub faucet running full blast my cycle is almost 2 minute off, allowing for the bladder tank to function correctly utilizing most of the stored water before pump cuts on. I am very happy with the performance of the well now. Will let you know if anything comes apart; Just for the reference.

Thanks all. Roger

ballvalve
02-10-2010, 01:57 AM
Try Dean Bennet supply online for a good selection of fittings. Did you discover how much well is under the pump?

hygron
02-25-2010, 09:54 PM
Thanks for the link; Ballvalve. I am getting ready to replumb the Greenhouse. maybe I can use that supplier knowing that they sell quality.

BTW. Well is running great. With the extra pressure I have now, i have been able to identify all the pinholes in my garden hoses. :cool:

later, hygron