PDA

View Full Version : Softener system for new home - ATTN GARY



riverside67
01-26-2010, 08:10 PM
Gary,

We have discussed my new home in depth in other threads in regards to my well and it producing hard water. We spoke on the phone a few months ago regarding my anticipated domestic demands.

Below is what you suggested based on a hardness of 340 ppm (20 grains):
Clack WS-1 (1") control valve w/1.25" plumbing.
4 cu ft resin tank

My questions are...
How much regular maintenance should I anticipate with a system of this size?
How often would I need to service the valve?
How hard is it to maintain the system?

I am extremely handy and love working on things but have kind of a bad back and cannot lift heavy items on a regular basis. Is there a lot of heavy lifting involved when performing regular maintenance and/or adding salt?

Thanks

Peter Griffin
01-27-2010, 02:45 AM
Properly installed, you put salt in it and that's about it. It should not need anything for years.

Skip Wolverton
01-27-2010, 10:47 AM
Gary,

We have discussed my new home in depth in other threads in regards to my well and it producing hard water. We spoke on the phone a few months ago regarding my anticipated domestic demands.

Below is what you suggested based on a hardness of 340 ppm (20 grains):
Clack WS-1 (1") control valve w/1.25" plumbing.
4 cu ft resin tank

My questions are...
How much regular maintenance should I anticipate with a system of this size?
How often would I need to service the valve?
How hard is it to maintain the system?

I am extremely handy and love working on things but have kind of a bad back and cannot lift heavy items on a regular basis. Is there a lot of heavy lifting involved when performing regular maintenance and/or adding salt?

Thanks
A 4 cu ft unit on 20 GPG water. You would have to use 500 gallon per day in order to regen every 8 days. IMO, a 4 cu ft is way over sized.

Akpsdvan
01-27-2010, 10:50 AM
Not if there is 9 people in the house and there is 5 bathrooms with a pump that is doing 20+gpm..

riverside67
01-27-2010, 12:16 PM
The reason for the large system was due to the two high performance showers I have designed for my home. The master bath has the ability to demand 29 gpm if all heads were active and bath #2 can demand 15 gpm on it's own with all heads running. It is very likely that both showers will be used at the same time and I have configured both to individually run enough minimum gpm to keep my pump from cycling (above 5 gpm flow).

I plan to run min 1.25" plumbing from the two HP water heaters in the garage to these bathrooms as well as a dedicated 0.5" hot water return line.

The home is served by a well capable of 50 gpm flows and will have a 2" PVC line running into the home and soft water system.

Gary Slusser
01-27-2010, 04:26 PM
A 4 cu ft unit on 20 GPG water. You would have to use 500 gallon per day in order to regen every 8 days. IMO, a 4 cu ft is way over sized.
That's because I keep telling you that you don't know how to size softeners and you just go on'n on thinking I'm wrong.

Gary Slusser
01-27-2010, 06:59 PM
The reason for the large system was due to the two high performance showers I have designed for my home. The master bath has the ability to demand 29 gpm if all heads were active and bath #2 can demand 15 gpm on it's own with all heads running. It is very likely that both showers will be used at the same time and I have configured both to individually run enough minimum gpm to keep my pump from cycling (above 5 gpm flow).

I plan to run min 1.25" plumbing from the two HP water heaters in the garage to these bathrooms as well as a dedicated 0.5" hot water return line.

The home is served by a well capable of 50 gpm flows and will have a 2" PVC line running into the home and soft water system.
If you actually mean to run both showers at the same time (which may be a typo above), then you need a constant SFR gpm of more than 44 gpm, and if so then you need a larger than 4 cuft softener with its 24-25 gpm constant Service Flow Rating.

Akpsdvan
01-27-2010, 07:36 PM
4 cubic foot system will work for the 44gpm.

As the 4 cubic foot could handle 47/64gpm, but the valve would have to be 2"

How often again would the high flow rate be reached? 2 minutes every 5 years?

Another way of doing this would be to split the 4 cubic into 2 2cubic foot units with a first in and last out so that the low end flow is covered and the high end flow is also covered.

If one goes to big then the slippage or leakage can and will take place when only 1-3gpm is used, 2 smaller units would not only see the lower flow better, but also cut down on the slippage or leakage.

Bob999
01-27-2010, 07:44 PM
Perhaps SST-60 resin would provide benefit in such a situation. The Manufacturer specs SST-60 at 7.5 gal/cubic foot--50% greater than the 5 gal/cubic foot for standard resin.

Skip Wolverton
01-28-2010, 05:19 AM
The water can only flow as fast as the valve will allow. Adding extra resin will not bring up the flow rate. Just because you size you unit to industrial standards and I don't, does not make me wrong.

riverside67
01-28-2010, 05:44 AM
If you actually mean to run both showers at the same time (which may be a typo above), then you need a constant SFR gpm of more than 44 gpm, and if so then you need a larger than 4 cuft softener with its 24-25 gpm constant Service Flow Rating.

No, that wasn't a typo...there WILL be times where both showers are running at the same time, likely even both at full bore, not that often have you, but it will happen occassionaly (once every week or two). I guess the big thing would be that the valve does not create too much friction loss (psi drop) or limit the ability of the water to flow at possilble full bore to both performance showers.

Gary Slusser
01-28-2010, 11:30 AM
No, that wasn't a typo...there WILL be times where both showers are running at the same time, likely even both at full bore, not that often have you, but it will happen occassionaly (once every week or two). I guess the big thing would be that the valve does not create too much friction loss (psi drop) or limit the ability of the water to flow at possilble full bore to both performance showers.
The Clack WS-1 has a SFR of 27 gpm @ 15 psi. That means it can be used on a tank up to and including a 21" diameter and that makes a 7.5 cuft softener. The 27 gpm means backwash flow gpm, it has nothing to do with the constant SFR gpm of the softener. The volume of resin dictates the size of the tank and the size of the tank dictates what control is needed to successfully backwash that volume of resin.

So you don't need a larger control valve. And if you did you'd go to the 1.25" or 1.5", not a 2".

The constant SFR gpm of a softener is controlled by the volume of resin in the tank, not the control valve.

And as long as the constant SFR of the volume of resin is higher than the peak demand gpm, your 44 gpm, you can expect 0 gpg soft water. As soon as the peak demand gpm exceeds the constant SFR gpm, you get some of the hardness through the resin/softener. I am not talking about 44 gpm at 15 psi pressure loss or a 67 gpm max flow rate (@ 15 or 25 psi pressure loss. I am talking about the constant service flow rating of the volume of resin.

If you don't mind getting hard water through the softener when both showers are running at full bore, you don't need a larger than 4.0 softener but, both showers totaling 44 gpm is all but 100% more than the constant SFR 24-25 gpm of a 4.0 cuft so the amount of hardness breakthrough should be close to 100% of your hardness gpg content. In other words, no softening until you turn a shower off or shut off the body sprays in one. Most of the water being used in the showers will be hot water meaning that any hardness leakage goes into the water heaters to cause scale build up. Any scale formation in the heaters should be dissolved over time but that means all hot water in the house will be hard until the scale is all gone; which may take a couple days.

riverside67
01-28-2010, 11:48 AM
The Clack WS-1 has a SFR of 27 gpm @ 15 psi.

ok, just so I have this straight...if I have 65psi entering the home what psi should I expect in the showers after this water goes thru the softening system and two water heaters and about 100' of 1.25" copper?

Akpsdvan
01-28-2010, 12:11 PM
ok, just so I have this straight...if I have 65psi entering the home what psi should I expect in the showers after this water goes thru the softening system and two water heaters and about 100' of 1.25" copper?

There are going to be other things that come into dropping psi, elbows, unions , if the heaters have 3/4 inlet outlets, it is not just the system valve that is/will drop the psi on the flow rate.

Gary Slusser
01-28-2010, 12:16 PM
Sized correctly you won't know the softener is there, but I can't tell you how many psi you'll have at the showers. That depends on how many tees, elbows, valves you have and if you are running water and how much before the end of the 100' run etc..

I can also tell you that the higher psi you run, the higher the pressure losses in the system and, the sooner the pressure tank empties causing the pump to come on.

Bob999
01-28-2010, 01:35 PM
According to the Specifications for the Clack valve (http://www.clackcorp.com/water.htm) (click on Control valve and pick the valve of interest) The 1" Clack valve alone will cause a 15 psi pressure drop at 27 gallons per minute flow while in service. In my opinion if you go with a 1" valve you will never see 44 gallons per minute flow in your system. If you really want a flow of 44 gallons per minute you will need a 1.5 inch valve.

riverside67
01-28-2010, 02:58 PM
Can water heaters be configured with inlets/outlets larger than 3/4" ? I think my heaters are going to be the bottleneck, and maybe I should go with the 1.5" valve.

Peter Griffin
01-28-2010, 03:12 PM
You can get large commercial water heaters but the operating cost would probably be prohibitive. I have not run the numbers but @44 gpm, that's a lot of flow. Is the house piping ( Main ) and the branch going to these showers big enough to handle that flow at reasonable pressure? You are going to experience pressure loss through every device on the system. this whole thing seems like a lot of trouble to go through to take a shower. Have you broken down the cost per session yet :)

Bob999
01-28-2010, 03:51 PM
Can water heaters be configured with inlets/outlets larger than 3/4" ? I think my heaters are going to be the bottleneck, and maybe I should go with the 1.5" valve.

In order to get 44 gpm of warm/hot water for any length of time you will need either multiple home water heaters or a commercial water heater. In just 10 minutes you will use 440 gallons of water and perhaps 2/3 (approximately 300 gallons) will be from the water heater. For example, you would need 4 80 gallon heaters to provide 10 minutes of use and the user would almost certainly have cool water in the last few minutes.

Peter Griffin
01-28-2010, 04:04 PM
Bob, thanks for doing the math :)

The water police will be all over this thread :)

riverside67
01-29-2010, 05:35 AM
Peter,
The main line to the home is a 2" pvc line coming from a well capable of producing 60 gpm. The pressure entering the softwater system should be about 65 psi under flow conditions. I plan to run 1.25" or 1.5" hot and cold lines to the bathrooms and then 1" branch lines to each 3/4" Kohler thermostatic valves (spec'd to flow 15 gpm @ 60 psi). There will be two of these valves in each shower, both on a dedicated 1" branch. All heads will be on 3/4" pressure balance loops.

Bob,
I plan to have two (2) Bradford White High Performance GX‑2‑25S6SX 25 gal propane water heaters installed in series. Each one can put out 155 gals of hot water in first hour. I see your point about the 10 min hot shower if everything was full bore. I may revise my shower design by removing a head or two in each one. Still, the "full bore" scenario will not happen very often. Most likely the master shower will be the one running wide open (25-29 gpm) for extended lengths of time (15 - 20 mins).

This is our once in a lifetime chance to build our dream home and at least one high performance shower is a must. One where the wife and I can both get in and have our own shower head to ourselves. WHere one can sit on a seat and have rain heads deluge on top of them for a while, etc.

Bob999
01-29-2010, 06:22 AM
Bob,
I plan to have two (2) Bradford White High Performance GX‑2‑25S6SX 25 gal propane water heaters installed in series. Each one can put out 155 gals of hot water in first hour. I see your point about the 10 min hot shower if everything was full bore. I may revise my shower design by removing a head or two in each one. Still, the "full bore" scenario will not happen very often. Most likely the master shower will be the one running wide open (25-29 gpm) for extended lengths of time (15 - 20 mins).

This is our once in a lifetime chance to build our dream home and at least one high performance shower is a must. One where the wife and I can both get in and have our own shower head to ourselves. WHere one can sit on a seat and have rain heads deluge on top of them for a while, etc.

I think I understand your dream but in my view the specs/equipment and dream still don't quite match up. The Water heaters you list will have 50 gallons of hot water immediately available and because of high recovery from high input produce another approximately 260 gallons in an hour--or about 85 gallons in 20 minutes. So your total hot water availability in 20 minutes is 50 + 85 or 135 gallons. Your single shower usage (hot plus cold) is 500 to 580 gallons in that same 20 minutes. You will not have sufficient hot water for a 20 minute shower running full bore with the single shower.

A typical new shower head is 2.2 gpm (The Federal Energy Policy Act of 1992 required all faucet / shower fixtures made the USA to have a flow rate of no more than 2.2 GPM (http://homerepair.about.com/od/termsgn/g/gpm.htm) at 60 PSI (http://homerepair.about.com/od/termsor/g/psi.htm). ). You are planning a flow more than 10 times that.

Given that you apparently will have a well I am guessing that you will also have a septic system. Regular use of a shower that dumps 500 gallons in the septic system with a single use will have to be factored into the design of the septic system as well.

riverside67
01-29-2010, 11:22 AM
Hmmm...now you have me worried...

I revised my showers a bit and recalculated what the "full bore" scenario would be...32.5 gpm (instead of 44)...if both showers were running wide open. Again, this is WORST CASE scenario and not likely to happen very often, if at all.

I see your point about insufficient hot water availability, and I know this isn't the Hot Water Heater forum, but what dual water heater scenario would you recommend considering the 32 gpm scenario? (Remember these tanks are going to be connected in series which I assume means the hot water production from the 2nd tank will be greater than specified since the incoming water will be "pre-heated" so to say).
Dual 80 gal heaters?
Dual Bradford White GX‑1‑55S6SX 55 gal heaters?

The more likely "regular" flow scenario (under normal circumstances) would be between 7.5 - 20 gpm with both showers running.

Oh and regarding the septic system...it will have a 1500 gal tank and respectively sized leach field (4x75' quik 4 chambers). It should not be an issue especially considering that the "full bore scenario will not happen very often and under normal use the showers would flow between 7.5 - 20 gpm combined total under normal use.

Bob999
01-29-2010, 11:58 AM
The water heaters you list have 3/4" connections. I don't think a series connection is appropriate--I believe that the connection should be parallel. Even with your reduced demand it seems to me you should be considering the 55 gallon version of the water heater--that will up your availability for the first 20 minutes to 110 + 85=195 gallons. This is probably still less than needed for 20 gpm for 20 minutes and if that is your design point then I think you will need an additional water heater (for a total of 3).

If you have not already done so I recommend you specifically discuss the showers with the septic field designer. The showers you are planning are well outside the normal design factors used.

riverside67
01-29-2010, 01:03 PM
What about using two 100 gallon M-I-100T6SX Bradford White 100 gallon water heaters?

Akpsdvan
01-29-2010, 01:09 PM
What is the starting temp of the water coming into the house?

Would you also have a recirculating system for the hot water?

Another idea would be Boiler Mate water heater on the boiler that is heating your house.

Bob999
01-29-2010, 02:18 PM
What about using two 100 gallon M-I-100T6SX Bradford White 100 gallon water heaters?

That model would provide about 130 gal/unit in the first 20 minutes or about 260 gallons for 2 units. So depending on the temperature of the water in the storage tank, the temperature of your incoming water, and the temperature of the water you want in the showers these units may provide the 400 gallons of water needed for a 20 minute shower at 20 gpm. In order to make a purchasing decision you need to consider the temperature of your incoming water, the temperature you will set the heaters for, the design temperature for the shower water as well as your design point (GPM for x minutes) for water usage.

Two water heaters with 88,000 BTU input each will be a consideration in the sizing of your propane tank.

Given the very large hot water demands you are considering you also need to consider whether the decision of how to heat water can/should be integrated with how you heat the home. You haven't told us where this home will be located and how it will be heated but using a heating boiler for short term high hot water demand may be a viable approach in certain situations.

Peter Griffin
01-29-2010, 02:20 PM
Seems like a huge expense and a whole lot of effort to take a shower, What exactly are you doing in there? :)

riverside67
01-29-2010, 03:02 PM
I'm not sure of the temp of the incoming water, I will find out this weekend.

Like I said many times...it is NOT likely that both showers will be operating "full bore". Since the master shower will be large enough for two (or eight...;)) people it is more likely that we'll both be in there maxing that out at one time.

I have further refined the master shower to run 20 gpm at full bore. I would consider this worst case scenario now.

I'm sure we'll set the tank temps at 120+ and the shower temp will normally be between 90-95.

The propane tank will be a 500 gallon.

I'll get back to you all with the water temp.

Bob999
01-29-2010, 04:41 PM
Like I said many times...it is NOT likely that both showers will be operating "full bore". Since the master shower will be large enough for two (or eight...;)) people it is more likely that we'll both be in there maxing that out at one time.

I have further refined the master shower to run 20 gpm at full bore. I would consider this worst case scenario now.

.

You must ultimately decide what the design specification is going to be. Are you going to size to provide for the one shower only and for only x minutes--or will you include some other concurrent use(s) in your design specification. The temperature of the water in the water heater makes a significant difference in the storage capacity needed. It is generally recommended that residential water heaters be set at or below 120 degrees F to reduce the risk of burns and to reduce off cycle heat loss. But increasing the temperature can allow a reduction in the size of tank in a situation like yours where you are are sizing for a short term demand. One approach is use higher storage temperatures and to use a mixing valve to temper the water as it is taken from the tank--this reduces the risk of burns.

You seem to be saying that your design specification is 20 gpm of xx degree water for yy minutes. I suggest you check the temperature of the water in which you typically shower.

90 to 95 degrees seems low to me in light of the fact that normal body temperature is approximately 99 degrees and most people like water to be warmer than body temperature.

I have no experience sizing propane tanks but do know that the ability to provide an adequate flow for any given size tank is dependent upon the ambient temperature of the tank. If you live in an area with cold winters the tank will have to be larger than would be required in an area with warmer temperatures. If you end up with water heaters that have an input approaching 200,000 BTU/hr I suspect that a larger than 500 gallon tank will be required. Again you need to discuss that with the tank supplier--along with any other concurrent uses of propane you may have.

riverside67
01-30-2010, 04:26 PM
You seem to be saying that your design specification is 20 gpm of xx degree water for yy minutes. I suggest you check the temperature of the water in which you typically shower.

Incoming water is ~ 57 degress F.
Typical hot water shower temp is about 108 F.

Akpsdvan
01-30-2010, 05:08 PM
Why not do a few On Demand water heaters, first in last out..

With close to 60F water and going up 50F to the 110F if you had 2 or 3 of the big ones, some how I don't think that you would run out of hot water, and be able to keep up with the flow demands that you might have.. and save room, and would not be heating water when you are not using it.

riverside67
01-30-2010, 05:38 PM
You mean tankless?

Akpsdvan
01-30-2010, 06:22 PM
Yes tankless... there are many brands out there, find some that can handle flows from 1gpm to 15gpm and have two , first in last out so that you have the full flow, or a balanced header.

Bob999
01-31-2010, 06:05 AM
A VERY large input BTU will be required with tankless heaters. If you assume 20 gpm of 108 F water and 57 F incoming that is a temperature rise of 51 F. So the hourly BTU input required is 20 gal times 8 lbs/gal times 51 degrees times 60 minutes equals 490,000 BTU/hour. If you assume the water heater is 80% efficient then the gross input per hour is 490k/0.8 = 612,000 BTU. Getting the required propane flow to support an input of that size will require a very large propane tank.

Three of these units (http://www.cpotanklesswaterheaters.com/gas_products/whole_house_tankless/liquid_propane/2700es-lp.html) would provide approximately 20 gpm for your conditions.

riverside67
01-31-2010, 06:44 AM
A VERY large input BTU will be required with tankless heaters. If you assume 20 gpm of 108 F water and 57 F incoming that is a temperature rise of 51 F. So the hourly BTU input required is 20 gal times 8 lbs/gal times 51 degrees times 60 minutes equals 490,000 BTU/hour. If you assume the water heater is 80% efficient then the gross input per hour is 490k/0.8 = 612,000 BTU. Getting the required propane flow to support an input of that size will require a very large propane tank.

Bob,
Considering the temperature rise requirements mentioned above, the typical 10 gpm and max 20 gpm hot water demands in the showers... would the two - 100 gal tank heaters be sufficient?

Peter Griffin
01-31-2010, 07:22 AM
seriously, have you figured the cost of a couple of 100 gallon tanks, oversized water treatment equipment, and all the installation, piping costs etc involved in taking a shower? You are going to have close to 10 grand wrapped up here.

Bob999
01-31-2010, 07:25 AM
Bob,
Considering the temperature rise requirements mentioned above, the typical 10 gpm and max 20 gpm hot water demands in the showers... would the two - 100 gal tank heaters be sufficient?
Sizing is done on max reqirement that must be met and I am assuming that is 20 gpm for 20 minutes. Usable storage is 80% of total or 160 gal for your assumptions.

Two 100 gallon tank heaters could be sufficient depending on the temperature setting for the storage--it clearly would not be adequate at 120F but with higher storage temperatures could meet your requirements. If you go that route I believe that you should include mixing valves to to reduce the temperature of the supplied water.

riverside67
01-31-2010, 08:51 AM
All I can say is...this is our dream, and we'll only do it once.

riverside67
02-02-2010, 05:33 AM
Two 100 gallon tank heaters could be sufficient depending on the temperature setting for the storage--it clearly would not be adequate at 120F but with higher storage temperatures could meet your requirements. If you go that route I believe that you should include mixing valves to to reduce the temperature of the supplied water.

Bob, do you still believe that a parallel tank setup would be better than an in series design?

Bob999
02-02-2010, 06:36 AM
I would go with a parallel installation for two reasons--less flow restriction and (I think) an incrementally better recovery speed--and that means slightly more hot water for the 20 minute 20 gpm design point. With a series installation the second heater will initially see hot incoming water and will fire later.

riverside67
02-02-2010, 11:08 AM
Considering I'll be using a recirulation system, how would I plumb the return line into a parallel tank setup scenario using one recirculation pump?

Bob999
02-02-2010, 12:48 PM
I don't see any problem with plumbing the return line, which I assume will be relatively small, into only one tank.

Akpsdvan
02-02-2010, 01:01 PM
Would that 1/2 line have a check/backflow valve so that there is only one way for that return water to go?

riverside67
02-03-2010, 05:25 AM
Would that 1/2 line have a check/backflow valve so that there is only one way for that return water to go?

Yes, the pump comes equiped with a check valve.

tuffy
02-03-2010, 08:55 PM
Have you thought about one quick recovery water heater and then have storage tanks to give you capacity. Run a circulator between them to keep the water hot. It seems your looking more for capacity to handle the occasional high volume shower than you are looking for sustained fast recovery like a commercial kitchen would require. Just a thought :)

riverside67
02-04-2010, 05:35 AM
According to the Specifications for the Clack valve (http://www.clackcorp.com/water.htm) (click on Control valve and pick the valve of interest) The 1" Clack valve alone will cause a 15 psi pressure drop at 27 gallons per minute flow while in service. In my opinion if you go with a 1" valve you will never see 44 gallons per minute flow in your system. If you really want a flow of 44 gallons per minute you will need a 1.5 inch valve.

Now that I have revised the max gpm down to 20 gpm will a Clack valve larger than 1.25" be necessary? I do not want to lose pressure through the units.

I also just noticed that the BW 100 gal tank heater has inlet/outlet piping of 1.25". So considering this should the two tanks still be plumbed in parallel?

Thanks!

Bob999
02-04-2010, 04:04 PM
Now that I have revised the max gpm down to 20 gpm will a Clack valve larger than 1.25" be necessary? I do not want to lose pressure through the units.

I also just noticed that the BW 100 gal tank heater has inlet/outlet piping of 1.25". So considering this should the two tanks still be plumbed in parallel?

Thanks!

Any valve, even the 1.5", will have some pressure loss but I think the 1.25" would be satisfactory.

I still see the same advantages to plumbing them in parallel and don't really see a downside.

riverside67
02-04-2010, 04:23 PM
I couldn't find pressure loss/flow charts on the Clack website to see how much pressure loss should be seen at 20 gpm with either the 1.25 or 1.5" valves but I figured the 1.5" would induce less psi loss than the 1.25".

Akpsdvan
02-04-2010, 07:25 PM
Would the plumbing be a 1 1/4 or 1 1/2 main line from the pressure tank through the system and then to the water heater as well as the main run through the house?

If the plumbing is going to be 1" why get a valve larger than that? if the plumbing is going to be 1 1/2 why do a smaller valve?

try and match the valve with the pipe size that is going to be used.

riverside67
02-05-2010, 06:49 AM
I was planning either a 1.25 or 1.5" trunk line from the two tanks to the furthest bathrooms and then a 0.5" return line back to tank #1. It is common practice in irrigation to increase the line size after the point of connection (meter/backflow) or other pressure losing device in order to further reduce friction/line losses throughout the system. I want to use a softener valve that will induce the least pressure loss at the max flow rate of 20 gpm (as well as during normal use...~10 gpm) and then possibly "bush" up to the next size line. I would only do this if the 1.25" valve was sufficient, then run an 1.5" line to the bathrooms. If I go with an 1.5" softener valve then I will stick with a 1.5" trunk to the bathrooms as there is little friction loss in an 1.5" line in 100 foot of run at 20 gpm.

Akpsdvan
02-05-2010, 07:02 AM
With that in mind go with the 1.5 pipe.
Friction loss SCH 40 PVC for 20gpm with 1.25 20gpm per 100 feet =6
Friction loss SCH 40 PVC for 20gpm with 1.50 20gpm per 100 feet =2.8

Less friction loss with the .25 larger pipe, I know that you are using copper and the true numbers are different, but the difference between sizes is not.

riverside67
02-05-2010, 09:31 AM
My thoughts exactly.

Gary Slusser
02-05-2010, 11:30 AM
Having sized a lot of water treatment equipment over the years for the peak demand you have been talking about, and then selling that equipment all over the country for the last 7 yrs to customers that I am sure would tell me of problems or post them in my customer comments forum if there were any, you are going at this all wrong.

First, you aren't installing just a control valve. You are installing a whole softener.

Y'all go on about what size valve because Bob999 doesn't know how to size a softener and yet sounds as if he does and says I'm wrong about the 1" Clack valve because he read something here or there... problem is he doesn't understand what he read or how to use it and I'm not going to educate him anymore.

You need a softener with a constant SFR gpm higher than your peak demand gpm. The constant SFR is dictated/controlled only by the volume of resin in the softener (and not using the figures Bob gets off a resin spec sheet).

The volume of resin dictates the size of the resin tank that must be used and, the size of the tank dictates the control valve that can or can not be used. That means that you do not need the ID of the porting of the control valve to match the ID of the plumbing (although a code will call for no reduction of the plumbing connectors). All that also means the distributor tube ID doesn't have to match the porting of the control valve or the ID of the plumbing.

You are seriously oversizing the ID of the plumbing; from what I recall of all that has been said here, 1" would be sufficient now.

The flow rate from an open ended 100' of 3/4" pipe at 50 psi is 17.5 gpm, for 1", it is 37 gpm. At 30 psi, 3/4" is 14 gpm and 1" is 28 gpm. Of course you will not get that much flow if you have the same ID pipe because your plumbing includes tees and elbows and valves which cause pressure losses and the fixture risers are much smaller ID than the pipe feeding them.

Are you going to have a 1.25" or 1.5" shower valve or shower head/body sprays? I think not, most likely, at best you'll have a 3/4" and 1/2".

You will not notice a pressure loss with a correctly sized softener and for up to a 21" tank (7.5 cuft) a Clack WS-1 will work just fine.

Bob999
02-05-2010, 02:01 PM
Y'all go on about what size valve because Bob999 doesn't know how to size a softener and yet sounds as if he does and says I'm wrong about the 1" Clack valve because he read something here or there... problem is he doesn't understand what he read or how to use it and I'm not going to educate him anymore.



Gary, You really need to get your facts straight if you are going to post. What you have written above is simply wrong -- if you believe it to be true you need to post the facts/explanation to demonstrate why it is true.

First I never said you were "wrong" about the 1" Clack valve. What I did post was: "According to the Specifications for the Clack valve (http://www.clackcorp.com/water.htm (http://www.clackcorp.com/water.htm)) (click on Control valve and pick the valve of interest) The 1" Clack valve alone will cause a 15 psi pressure drop at 27 gallons per minute flow while in service. In my opinion if you go with a 1" valve you will never see 44 gallons per minute flow in your system. If you really want a flow of 44 gallons per minute you will need a 1.5 inch valve."

I have no idea what you are referring to when you post that "problem is he doesn't understand what he read or how to use it ". If you are going to post statements like that you have an obligation to back it up with facts!

Skip Wolverton
02-05-2010, 02:05 PM
You can not get more water flow out of a unit than the distributor will allow. It does not matter if you have a 2" valve, 1.5" or a 1" valve, if the distributor is only 1", they flow will not be greater than the 1" can handle.

Peter Griffin
02-05-2010, 03:54 PM
Clack lists a 15lb service pressure drop for all three valves
The 1" flows 27 gpm, the 1.25 flows 34 gpm and the 1.50 flows 60 gpm.

If I recall correctly the cold water supply piping is 1 1/2 which by code dictates an 1 1/2 valve body. I also remember the SFU being around 44 gpm which is with both mega showers running at the same time, full bore. Admittedly that scenario is probably the exception to the rule but it may happen occasionally. So the question is whether or not you go with a smaller valve and unit and occasional get some amount of hard water through the system or you go with a 1 1/2 valve and size for maximum volume.

Akpsdvan
02-05-2010, 04:15 PM
The other side of the coin with the larger unit is that it is more likely to not see the low flow rate of water, ie 1.5 gpm and lower may not be seen by the meter, what ever meter is used.

Now if one is Always Going to be using 2+gpm then great... but if there is low usage or ice makers ro systems... then that larger meter is not going to see it.

With that much resin and low flow there are other challenges that will come into the picture, channeling will be the biggest and most likely one to happen, not just once but a lot.

Big units are often times on water that is Always Flowing and never stopping.

Peter Griffin
02-05-2010, 04:28 PM
Absolutely, which is yet another snafu in this whole mega shower thing. To have to size both filtration and then water heating for a single (ok 2 single) shower loads is going to be wasteful, expensive and possibly problematic as well. the alternative might be to use 2 separate softeners, one for the main house and one for the showers.

Akpsdvan
02-05-2010, 04:52 PM
Or to use the 2 softener idea, just use them in the first in and last out or the balanced header so that the meters see the lower flow and there is less challening , and one still gets the flow rate after the treatment system.

Gary Slusser
02-05-2010, 11:23 PM
Clack lists a 15lb service pressure drop for all three valves
The 1" flows 27 gpm, the 1.25 flows 34 gpm and the 1.50 flows 60 gpm.
They also list a few other things.


If I recall correctly the cold water supply piping is 1 1/2 which by code dictates an 1 1/2 valve body.
As I've already said, the code calls for no reduction of the ID for the plumbing connections; not the control valve ID or the distributor tube. Possibly you neeed to look that up.


I also remember the SFU being around 44 gpm which is with both mega showers running at the same time, full bore.
Now we are talking half that; 20-22 gpm and 1.25" tubing.


Admittedly that scenario is probably the exception to the rule but it may happen occasionally. So the question is whether or not you go with a smaller valve and unit and occasional get some amount of hard water through the system or you go with a 1 1/2 valve and size for maximum volume.
IIRC he said every morning and I have many softeners in houses with this type shower being used every day and sometimes twice a day.

Based on the regeneration schedule channeling will not be a problem.

Gary Slusser
02-05-2010, 11:39 PM
The other side of the coin with the larger unit is that it is more likely to not see the low flow rate of water, ie 1.5 gpm and lower may not be seen by the meter, what ever meter is used.

Now if one is Always Going to be using 2+gpm then great... but if there is low usage or ice makers ro systems... then that larger meter is not going to see it.
The 1" and 1.25" Clack doesn't have that problem but I'd have to look up the 1.5" metering. Edit: I looked all 3 up and the metering is .25 for the 1 and 1.25" and .5 gpm for the 1.5". So IMO the 1.5" would not be a good choice for residential.


With that much resin and low flow there are other challenges that will come into the picture, channeling will be the biggest and most likely one to happen, not just once but a lot.

Big units are often times on water that is Always Flowing and never stopping.
I consistently sell up to 4.0 cuft softeners and the regeneration schedule prevents channeling. And many years ago I sold a 8 or 10 cuft softener without constant flow without a metering problem. Hotels, motels 24/7 car washes etc. don't have constant flow.

Akpsdvan
02-05-2010, 11:54 PM
This has turned in to a poll cat marking contest....

And I will not continue down this childish path.

Skip Wolverton
02-06-2010, 12:37 AM
A 4 cu ft unit on 20 GPG water. You would have to use 500 gallon per day in order to regen every 8 days. IMO, a 4 cu ft is way over sized.
I will stick by my orginal quote. I believe you need to get a local dealer involved to set this up.

Peter Griffin
02-06-2010, 03:46 AM
This has turned in to a poll cat marking contest....



Is that an Alaska thing? :)

Peter Griffin
02-06-2010, 03:51 AM
That no reduction thing applies to any fixture or fitting installed in the supply line that has both an inlet and an outlet. In this case the softener does indeed have both. On other words, all the water used in the building flows through the valve head. Therefore you can not reduce through the valve. The distributor tube for all three models matches the valve head for diameter.

Bob999
02-06-2010, 07:04 AM
The Clack WS-1 has a SFR of 27 gpm @ 15 psi. That means it can be used on a tank up to and including a 21" diameter and that makes a 7.5 cuft softener. The 27 gpm means backwash flow gpm, it has nothing to do with the constant SFR gpm of the softener. The volume of resin dictates the size of the tank and the size of the tank dictates what control is needed to successfully backwash that volume of resin.



Gary, Now I am going to say you are wrong! What I have quoted above is simply wrong! It demonstrates that you simply don't understand some basic facts about water softening equipment and the real world application of the equipment.

I will explain why. I am doing this for readers of this board because you have consistently demonstrated that you have a closed mind.

The post is wrong because the SFR of a water softener is determined by both the control head and the amount of resin in the softener. In the specific case the poster was asking about a softener that will handle a flow of 44 gpm. A Clack WS1 control valve will not provide a flow of 44 gpm at any usable pressure because according to the published specifications for the valve the pressure loss caused by the valve alone during service at a flow of 27 gpm is 15 psi. So even if you put a 7.5 cubic foot tank and the appropriate amount of resin on a 1" valve it will not provide a flow of 44 gpm.

You say that the size of the tank dictates what control is needed. This is partially true. One of the rating factors for softener valves is the size of tank the valve can backwash when used for softening applications. So far so good. A second factor in the choice of a softener valve is that the valve will provide the design flow in service at a reasonable pressure loss. In this case the 1" valve will not provide a flow of 44 gpm at a reasonable pressure loss.

riverside67
02-06-2010, 07:24 AM
It is great to see so much info coming from this thread! Some of you have missed an important change...I revised the "full bore" scenario down to 20 gpm...

Normal flows = 0 - 10 gpm
Full bore = 20 - 25 gpm (both showers and say..the dw)

Bob999
02-06-2010, 08:08 AM
It is great to see so much info coming from this thread! Some of you have missed an important change...I revised the "full bore" scenario down to 20 gpm...

Normal flows = 0 - 10 gpm
Full bore = 20 - 25 gpm (both showers and say..the dw)

I understand that your design has changed in the course of the discussion in this thread. I think I made that clear when I responded to your question and said that I thought that the 1.25" valve would provide satisfactory service at the revised design point. It is my opinion, based on my understanding of your objective to provide flows of 20-25 gpm at a robust pressure, that a 1" valve would not be satisfactory--notwithstanding the fact that it would in fact flow at 20-25 gpm--because the pressure drop for the valve head alone would approach 15 psi. The pressure you would see at the point of use would be reduced further pressure loss from fittings, piping, additional valves, and the softener resin/tank.

riverside67
02-06-2010, 10:18 AM
Given my limited knowledge of softeners and valves I still believe that an 1.25" valve, along with the 4.0 cu ft resin tank, would be the best choice as long as it would not create a "short circuiting" effect in the system at low flows. I greatly understand hydraulics and pressure losses in water systems but do not know how softener valves function and/or how their sizing affects the performance at given flow rates.

Peter Griffin
02-06-2010, 11:17 AM
going with the 1.25 valve would be the way to go.

Gary Slusser
02-06-2010, 02:43 PM
Sorry AKpsdvan, I don't understand what this is about; "This has turned in to a poll cat marking contest...." If I guess, I come up with you being upset because you think I'm pickin' nits... I wasn't but at times I think others are.

http://www.terrylove.com/forums/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Skip Wolverton http://www.terrylove.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?p=246508)
A 4 cu ft unit on 20 GPG water. You would have to use 500 gallon per day in order to regen every 8 days. IMO, a 4 cu ft is way over sized.

That's because you don't understand how to size or set up a softener by adjusting the K of capacity you need by the salt dose in lbs based on the volume and type of resin you are using so you mistakenly think 120 or128K.


Peter says; "That no reduction thing applies to any fixture or fitting installed in the supply line that has both an inlet and an outlet. In this case the softener does indeed have both. On other words, all the water used in the building flows through the valve head. Therefore you can not reduce through the valve. The distributor tube for all three models matches the valve head for diameter."
Name the code and quote it verbatim or post a link for us. I say it applies to the plumbing connectors, not the porting of the control valve, show me that I'm wrong.

After considerable effort, I found the 2008 MA plumbing code (I think Mass should be 'tighter' than others) Joints and Connections section 10:07 (7) "Increasers and Reducers. When interconnecting pipes and fittings, fittings and fittings, or pipes and fittings that have different sizes the size of the increaser or reducing fittings shall be selected and installed so as to prevent the restriction of flow between the interconnection.".There's nothing in there about fixtures, control valves by pass valves distributor tubes etc..

Gary Slusser
02-06-2010, 03:54 PM
Gary, Now I am going to say you are wrong! What I have quoted above is simply wrong! It demonstrates that you simply don't understand some basic facts about water softening equipment and the real world application of the equipment.

I will explain why. I am doing this for readers of this board because you have consistently demonstrated that you have a closed mind.
I've told you that you are missing something, and you are, I'm right about that Bob. So IMO it is you that has the closed mind.


The post is wrong because the SFR of a water softener is determined by both the control head and the amount of resin in the softener.
Bob, that's one SFR, but there are two for all softeners.

So Bob, I still say you are going on what you read and you are not understanding all of that and then you are missing a few points but, IMO you sound as if you have no actual field or first hand experience.

On the other hand I do have experience based on having sold all but 1300+ Clack WS-1 valves that maintain a record of the highest gpm run through them. I size for the peak demand of the house based on the number of people, bathrooms and the type of fixtures in the house, which is what we are discussing.

For what it is worth, over the last 6 yrs the 21st of last month, I have sold a number of 4 cuft softeners for 2 person showers with up to 6 body sprays and 2-3 shower heads. I proposed one yesterday or Thursday for an airline pilot's house in CO with 3 heads, one a Rainbird I think they call it, and 4 other heads up high on 2 walls. I have used the WS-1 for all of them except that one I haven't sold yet. I have never had a customer tell me they are getting leakage (hard water) through their softener or found that I underestimated their peak demand flow rate. I have never had a customer say they notice a pressure loss either.

And I see that in a later post of yours than this one that I am replying to, you still say a WS-1 is too small for Riverside.

With your going on like this I feel like the anti global warming guy must when he goes against those guys that for 20 yrs have been swearing it is, but are now found to have been using incorrect data while they still insist they're right.

Believe it or not, if I found out I had a customer where I got it wrong, I'd be sending them more resin and a larger tank and/or a larger Clack WS CS valve and distributor tube at my expense.

Bob999
02-06-2010, 04:51 PM
On the other hand I do have experience based on having sold all but 1300+ Clack WS-1 valves that maintain a record of the highest gpm run through them. I size for the peak demand of the house based on the number of people, bathrooms and the type of fixtures in the house, which is what we are discussing.

For what it is worth, over the last 6 yrs the 21st of last month, I have sold a number of 4 cuft softeners for 2 person showers with up to 6 body sprays and 2-3 shower heads. I proposed one yesterday or Thursday for an airline pilot's house in CO with 3 heads, one a Rainbird I think they call it, and 4 other heads up high on 2 walls. I have used the WS-1 for all of them except that one I haven't sold yet.

I have no doubt that you sell water softeners. I have never questioned that. Selling water softeners from your no fixed address mobile home in wherever certainly isn't hands on experience in my book.

What I do question is your understanding that it is necessary to have both a properly sized control head and a properly sized amount of resin/tank in order to get satisfactory service. Certainly your postings here don't indicate that you understand that basic tenent of equipment selection.

I note you provide no facts or figures or explanations--you just keep putting forward the same old same old ****.

Bob999
02-06-2010, 04:55 PM
And I see that in a later post of yours than this one that I am replying to, you still say a WS-1 is too small for Riverside.

Gary, There you go again making things up. I never posted saying that a WS-1 is too small for Riverside. I challenge you to quote the alledged post.

Perhaps you are referring to my post where I said that my opinion was that a 1" valve would not provide satisfactory service at a flow of 25 gpm. A Clack WS1 will have a pressure drop of nearly 15 psi at a flow of 25 gpm and I don't think that would be satisfactory.

Gary Slusser
02-06-2010, 08:00 PM
I have no doubt that you sell water softeners. I have never questioned that. Selling water softeners from your no fixed address mobile home in wherever certainly isn't hands on experience in my book.

What I do question is your understanding that it is necessary to have both a properly sized control head and a properly sized amount of resin/tank in order to get satisfactory service. Certainly your postings here don't indicate that you understand that basic tenent of equipment selection.
See now there's something else you're not understanding, I do have a fixed address but I was having a conversation with you and here you are attacking me and getting personal and way off topic.

I talk to 99% of all my customers before they buy and I go over sizing etc. with them for from an hour to an hour and a half. That's over the last 6 yrs and for 18-19 yrs before that I had a fixed address where I was a local dealer serving a 50-80 mile radius of the Milton/Lewisburg PA area. So I feel very comfy in putting my hands on experience up against anyone and especially someone with nothing but having read spec sheets that then doesn't understand everything they read.


I note you provide no facts or figures or explanations--you just keep putting forward the same old same old ****. About what I would expect from a salesman who doesn't know his merchandise as well as he thinks he does.
For 6 months you have been picking at things I say and because of that I have decided that I'm not going to teach you to size a softener or explain to you what you are missing. Well, other than your lack of experience and knowledge.

Here's what I replied to that you said previously: "It is my opinion, based on my understanding of your objective to provide flows of 20-25 gpm at a robust pressure, that a 1" valve would not be satisfactory". As I said previously, you are wrong.

Bob999
02-07-2010, 05:52 AM
See now there's something else you're not understanding, I do have a fixed address but I was having a conversation with you and here you are attacking me and getting personal and way off topic.

I talk to 99% of all my customers before they buy and I go over sizing etc. with them for from an hour to an hour and a half. That's over the last 6 yrs and for 18-19 yrs before that I had a fixed address where I was a local dealer serving a 50-80 mile radius of the Milton/Lewisburg PA area. So I feel very comfy in putting my hands on experience up against anyone and especially someone with nothing but having read spec sheets that then doesn't understand everything they read.


For 6 months you have been picking at things I say and because of that I have decided that I'm not going to teach you to size a softener or explain to you what you are missing. Well, other than your lack of experience and knowledge.

Here's what I replied to that you said previously: "It is my opinion, based on my understanding of your objective to provide flows of 20-25 gpm at a robust pressure, that a 1" valve would not be satisfactory". As I said previously, you are wrong.

I just for record I never said you have no fixed address--I said you sell from a no fixed address mobile home. I note that you do not deny that my post is true. Your response on this, like so many others, is an attempt to distort the truth or to divert the reader from the truth.

I see no reason to continue a discussion with a salesman who apparently doesn't know important information about the application of the equipment he sells and who continually misrepresents what I have posted. I believe the primary purpose of this board is to share experience and help people with problems. I will continue to do that and ignore any further attacks and bashing from individuals who have demonstrated they aren't worthy of response.

Peter Griffin
02-07-2010, 06:00 AM
[QUOTE=Gary Slusser;247775]They also list a few other things.

Yes, they do. Pages and pages of other things. but every time they talk about valve flow they talk about a 15 lb. pressure drop through all of their valve heads.


As I've already said, the code calls for no reduction of the ID for the plumbing connections; not the control valve ID or the distributor tube. Possibly you need to look that up.

Being a plumbing inspector I would say you are talking semantics and not the spirit of the code here. It's pretty obvious that if the inlet and outlets are 1" then the "connections" from a 1 1/2" supply would have to be reduced at the valve body. I would not pass it. No inspector, state or local would pass it in this area.

You also state that you have sold softeners to folks with high demand showers etc and they have never complained about hardness leakage. Probably that is true, but on the other hand, I doubt they would notice any leakage in a shower even if it was occurring.

Bob999
02-07-2010, 06:58 AM
You also state that you have sold softeners to folks with high demand showers etc and they have never complained about hardness leakage. Probably that is true, but on the other hand, I doubt they would notice any leakage in a shower even if it was occurring.

Perhaps he sold a softener with a 1" valve for the high demand showers and as a result the user never got the high flow because of the pressure drop through the 1" valve head.

Skip Wolverton
02-07-2010, 08:34 AM
Sorry AKpsdvan, I don't understand what this is about; "This has turned in to a poll cat marking contest...." If I guess, I come up with you being upset because you think I'm pickin' nits... I wasn't but at times I think others are.

http://www.terrylove.com/forums/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Skip Wolverton http://www.terrylove.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?p=246508)
A 4 cu ft unit on 20 GPG water. You would have to use 500 gallon per day in order to regen every 8 days. IMO, a 4 cu ft is way over sized.

That's because you don't understand how to size or set up a softener by adjusting the K of capacity you need by the salt dose in lbs based on the volume and type of resin you are using so you mistakenly think 120 or128K.
If your are not using the resin, then why sell it?

riverside67
02-07-2010, 11:16 AM
Ok let's please get back to my question...

Will it hurt anything if I go with the 1.25" Clack valve?
Will I see less pressure loss with the 1.25" valve as compared to the 1"?

Thanks

Peter Griffin
02-07-2010, 11:19 AM
No, it will not hurt anything and yes, you will see less pressure loss and you will be code compliant as well.

Bob999
02-07-2010, 11:44 AM
Ok let's please get back to my question...

Will it hurt anything if I go with the 1.25" Clack valve?
Will I see less pressure loss with the 1.25" valve as compared to the 1"?

Thanks

No it will not cause any problem to go with a 1.25" Clack valve. The meter on the 1.25" valve has the same sensitivity as the 1" valve so it will sense the same flows--down to .25 gpm. You will definitely see less pressure loss with the 1.25" valve as compared to the 1" valve.

The only possible downside to the 1.25" valve is that it costs more--but it also has better performance.

Bob999
02-07-2010, 02:21 PM
If your are not using the resin, then why sell it?

I think there are at least two reasons for using a larger amount of resin (4 cubic foot in the specific example) if the assumed maximum demand is 20-25 gpm with 20 gpg hardness. First a bit of background information which I expect you know but that other readers may not:

1. The salt efficiency of a softener is higher when the maximum capacity of the resin is NOT used. If one cubic foot of resin is regenerated with 6 lbs of salt the salt efficiency is approximately 3400 grains per lb of salt and approximately 20,000 grains of capacity are available. If that same one foot of resin is regenerated with 15 lbs of salt the salt efficiency is about 2000 grains per lb of salt and about 30,000 grains of capacity are available. Resin manufacturers publish curves and regeneration rates for one cubic foot vary from 3 lbs per cubic foot to 15 lbs per cubic foot.

2. The hardness leakage of a softener is lower when the flow per cubic foot of resin is lower. The higher the flow rate per cubic foot of resin the higher the hardness leakage.

So, to answer your question as to why a larger softener might be used, it would be to achieve greater salt efficiency and/or lower hardness leakage. Depending on the cost of salt compared to the cost of resin and the larger tank required for the larger amount of resin and the customers discount rate it may or may not make economic sense to go with a larger amount of resin to achieve greater salt efficiency. Hardness leakage in the typical residential application is a matter of personal preference and again it is really up to the customer to decide what hardness leakage is satisfactory. The problem from the sellors point of view, in my opinion, is that it is very difficult to help the customer make an informed decision about an acceptable level of hardness leakage--getting reliable data about what hardness leakage will actually be is difficult at best and explaining or demonstrating the impact of hardness leakage is also problematic.

Gary Slusser
02-07-2010, 05:04 PM
Bob, selling from a no fixed address does not bother my customers. Actually, they all know where I am based on a pinpoint GPS address. And in reading what you said, I see you relate my traveling around the country as me having no hands on first hand experience and yet you know I have installed and serviced equipment as a local dealer for18-19 yrs as an independent local dealer.

But why does it bother you or have anything to do with what is being discussed?

BTW, it is an RV (recreation vehicle), a motor home, not a mobile home. I'm not seeing a distortion in what I said but I do see errors in what you are saying and talking about.

You mention the forum is to "share experience" Bob, yet you have consistently refused to say what your experience is. What is your experience Bob? Have you ever sold a softener to anyone? Installed one? How about service, have you done any?

Peter, my "They also list a few other things." I didn't mean manuals, I meant spec sheets.

And for 1.5" ID or 1.25" tubing/pipe, I could use the factory 1.25" or 1.5" plumbing connectors that Clack makes for situations like this and as you say, I'd be to 'Code".

You also say "I doubt they would notice any leakage in a shower even if it was occurring.". And then Bob in reply to that says "Perhaps he sold a softener with a 1" valve for the high demand showers and as a result the user never got the high flow because of the pressure drop through the 1" valve head.".

Which makes me question why you would say that when leakage and pressure loss are two very different things and not related in this. Those statements shows your and Bob's lack of knowledge and experience of water softening and sizing softeners. Also, my and other dealers' experience says people with a water softener usually can tell right away when they get a grain or two of hardness through their softeners; especially the lady of the house. Just in case, I send my customers a test kit for those times that will tell them if they have 1 or more gpg of hardness leakage. I can not recall anytime that someone had leakage and there wasn't something physically wrong with the softener. And as soon as that was fixed and the unit was regenerated properly, they got soft water again. In other words, I have not had leakage problems. And the same goes for pressure loss, no complaints and most guys can tell if there is a pressure or flow real quick and they are looking for any right after installing the softener..

Skip says "If your are not using the resin, then why sell it?". I have seen you say you set a "32K" at 9-12 lbs. instead of the maximum 15 lb salt dose for 1.0 cuft of resin, one of the reasons you do that is the answer to your question.

Riverside, Bob says "You will definitely see less pressure loss with the 1.25" valve as compared to the 1" valve.". That is at best an incomplete answer and factually it is incorrect because you have to look at the whole softener, including the distributor tube and the type of resin used. The standard distributor tube for the WS-1.25 is not 1.25", the standard is 1.05" OD. Why would you suppose that is?

Bob999
02-07-2010, 05:30 PM
The standard distributor tube for the WS-1.25 is not 1.25", the standard is 1.05" OD. Why would you suppose that is?

There you go again making up facts. Check the specification sheets for the 1" and 1.25" valves. The 1" valve has a distributor pilot of 1.05" (note it is the opening in the valve--the distributor tube is a separate part.) The 1.25" valve has a distributor pilot of 1.32" (again that is the opening in the valve body--the distributor tube is a separate part.) I can only assume that when you say standard distributor tube you are making reference to what your wholesale distributor lists in the catalog as a combination of a valve and a distributor tube.

However you do raise an important point--if a plumbing system is being designed for a specified flow rate it is important to pay attention to each component. It certainly wouldn't make sense to pay for a 1.25" valve and then use a 1" distributor tube with that valve. Similarly it wouldn't make sense to pay for a 1.25" valve to connect to 1" plumbing.

Peter Griffin
02-07-2010, 05:42 PM
[QUOTE=Gary Slusser;247989]



And for 1.5" ID or 1.25" tubing/pipe, I could use the factory 1.25" or 1.5" plumbing connectors that Clack makes for situations like this and as you say, I'd be to 'Code".



Are you saying, using 1 1/4" connectors on the ws1 valve head? If so, then you have only defeated the whole piont of going up in valve head size. There is more than just a connector size difference between the valves. It probably would fool an inspector though, if that was the intended purpose.

Gary Slusser
02-07-2010, 07:43 PM
I think there are at least two reasons for using a larger amount of resin (4 cubic foot in the specific example) if the assumed maximum demand is 20-25 gpm with 20 gpg hardness. First a bit of background information which I expect you know but that other readers may not:
Actually first and foremost it is to provide the constant Service Flow Rating gpm required for the peak demand gpm of the system the softener is treating.

Which allows for setting the salt dose based on the capacity needed for the regeneration schedule you want at the best salt efficiency.


1. The salt efficiency of a softener is higher when the maximum capacity of the resin is NOT used. If one cubic foot of resin is regenerated with 6 lbs of salt the salt efficiency is approximately 3400 grains per lb of salt and approximately 20,000 grains of capacity are available. If that same one foot of resin is regenerated with 15 lbs of salt the salt efficiency is about 2000 grains per lb of salt and about 30,000 grains of capacity are available. Resin manufacturers publish curves and regeneration rates for one cubic foot vary from 3 lbs per cubic foot to 15 lbs per cubic foot.
I've told him this numerous times over the last year or more here under the 2-3 names he's used here but hopefully he'll believe you.


2. The hardness leakage of a softener is lower when the flow per cubic foot of resin is lower. The higher the flow rate per cubic foot of resin the higher the hardness leakage.

So, to answer your question as to why a larger softener might be used, it would be to achieve greater salt efficiency and/or lower hardness leakage. Depending on the cost of salt compared to the cost of resin and the larger tank required for the larger amount of resin and the customers discount rate it may or may not make economic sense to go with a larger amount of resin to achieve greater salt efficiency.
It is all based on the constant SFR gpm required. If you don't get that right nothing else matters and leakage will be so high it's like not having a softener. That is how softeners must be sized and doing it that way also prevents noticeable pressure loss.


Hardness leakage in the typical residential application is a matter of personal preference and again it is really up to the customer to decide what hardness leakage is satisfactory.
The vast majority of prospective customers do not know what the word leakage means and 99% will say they do not want any hard water getting through their softener. Which is the way it should be. But... as an example, what amount of leakage would you say is OK?


The problem from the sellors point of view, in my opinion, is that it is very difficult to help the customer make an informed decision about an acceptable level of hardness leakage--getting reliable data about what hardness leakage will actually be is difficult at best and explaining or demonstrating the impact of hardness leakage is also problematic.
I have explained leakage to thousands of prospective customers, it's not difficult and the WQA says the amount of acceptable hardness (leakage) in softened water is 1 gpg or less. I say 0 gpg is what everyone should have and expect.. And when you talk to people after describing leakage, no one wants any. Well every once in awhile there is a guy that before he buys a softener will say he doesn't like the slippery feel and he wants to add some hardness back into the softened water. That's until he gets used to the feel and then any hardness drives him nuts.

Gary Slusser
02-07-2010, 09:12 PM
There you go again making up facts. Check the specification sheets for the 1" and 1.25" valves. The 1" valve has a distributor pilot of 1.05" (note it is the opening in the valve--the distributor tube is a separate part.) The 1.25" valve has a distributor pilot of 1.32" (again that is the opening in the valve body--the distributor tube is a separate part.) I can only assume that when you say standard distributor tube you are making reference to what your wholesale distributor lists in the catalog as a combination of a valve and a distributor tube.
Yes I know what the spec sheets say. And again reading spec sheets is where you are getting your limited knowledge from. And yes distributors, independent dealers' suppliers, order the valves in from the manufacturer based on the size of the DT normally used. Then change the pi;ot if they go to a larger DT. So those are the facts Bob. Now ask yourself why they would normally use a smaller distributor tube than the porting of the control valve. And then why a WS-1 on up to a 21" tank and maybe on 1.25" and 1.5" plumbing.


However you do raise an important point--if a plumbing system is being designed for a specified flow rate it is important to pay attention to each component. It certainly wouldn't make sense to pay for a 1.25" valve and then use a 1" distributor tube with that valve. Similarly it wouldn't make sense to pay for a 1.25" valve to connect to 1" plumbing.
Likewise, unless the salesperson wants to make more money or the prospective uninformed customer WANTS the larger control valve, there's no sense in a larger ported control valve when a smaller one will work; as an example here in this case where people are convincing Riverside that he should want a larger valve. Had I not mentioned the distributor tube he'd get a 1.05" from 9 out of 10 dealers because he doesn't need the larger valve or DT.

And how about the by pass valve Bob, do you see a 1.25" or larger? Do you know the 1" is used for the 1" and the 1.25" valves?

Ask yourself what the pressure loss would be when 1.25" ID water line is reduced through say 6-7" of 1" ID plastic into a 14"-21" dia tank and then through 5' 2"+/- of 1.05" OD plastic DT and then through 6-7" of 1" plastic then back into 1.25". Peter should be able to help you if needed. Then tell me how a softener owner without pressure gauges before and after the softener can tell there is that amount of pressure loss.

Bob999
02-08-2010, 06:07 AM
Yes I know what the spec sheets say. And again reading spec sheets is where you are getting your limited knowledge from. And yes distributors, independent dealers' suppliers, order the valves in from the manufacturer based on the size of the DT normally used. Then change the pi;ot if they go to a larger DT. So those are the facts Bob. Now ask yourself why they would normally use a smaller distributor tube than the porting of the control valve. And then why a WS-1 on up to a 21" tank and maybe on 1.25" and 1.5" plumbing.


Likewise, unless the salesperson wants to make more money or the prospective uninformed customer WANTS the larger control valve, there's no sense in a larger ported control valve when a smaller one will work; as an example here in this case where people are convincing Riverside that he should want a larger valve. Had I not mentioned the distributor tube he'd get a 1.05" from 9 out of 10 dealers because he doesn't need the larger valve or DT.

And how about the by pass valve Bob, do you see a 1.25" or larger? Do you know the 1" is used for the 1" and the 1.25" valves?

Ask yourself what the pressure loss would be when 1.25" ID water line is reduced through say 6-7" of 1" ID plastic into a 14"-21" dia tank and then through 5' 2"+/- of 1.05" OD plastic DT and then through 6-7" of 1" plastic then back into 1.25". Peter should be able to help you if needed. Then tell me how a softener owner without pressure gauges before and after the softener can tell there is that amount of pressure loss.

Gary, there you go again. Bashing me because of unfounded assumptions you make about my background, experience and knowledge base. However, I acknowledge that I do rely on published technical data as one of the sources of my information--don't you?

I think it is telling that a salesman who sells from a no fixed address mobile home continually questions and berates the knowledge, experience and background of other posters. So be it. I am content to let the reader read what I post and decide for himself.

And yes I have no doubt that there are unscrupulous dealers who would sell a 1.25" valve with a 1" distributor tube to an unsuspecting customer to make a little more profit. I hope you are not one of them.

Bob999
02-08-2010, 06:45 AM
I have explained leakage to thousands of prospective customers, it's not difficult and the WQA says the amount of acceptable hardness (leakage) in softened water is 1 gpg or less. I say 0 gpg is what everyone should have and expect.

There have been previous discussions about leakage. Let me say again that I understand that zero grains per gallon of hardness means zero parts per million of hardness. With that understanding I think it is misleading at best, and dishonest at worst, to describe a typical residential softener as delivering "0 gpg". It just doesn't happen with softeners regenerated with a few lbs of salt per cubic foot and used with flow rates of up to 9 gallons per cubic foot of resin.

I think I understand from your previous posting on this matter that you use a fairly crude hardness test--one that is only calibrated in units of one or more grains per gallon and that what you really mean when you say "0 gpg" is that with the hardness test you use that the test doesn't show 1 or more gpg.

Gary Slusser
02-08-2010, 09:14 AM
Gary, there you go again. Bashing me because of unfounded assumptions you make about my background, experience and knowledge base. However, I acknowledge that I do rely on published technical data as one of the sources of my information--don't you?
Bashing you? If you have field experience, state what it is and realize that so far without stating it you are lying by omission. On the other hand I lay my experience out for all to see and all you seem to do is pick it apart because it doesn't match your understanding of things solely based on spec sheets. I'm replying to what you have said has been based on only spec sheets. Spec sheets don't tell the whole story and in your case you are missing something on some of those spec sheets and I am not going to tell you what it is until you mention it, and then maybe not then anyway because I'm thinking you will pick apart my explanation of that like you did with your resin spec sheet SFR argument.


I think it is telling that a salesman who sells from a no fixed address mobile home continually questions and berates the knowledge, experience and background of other posters. So be it. I am content to let the reader read what I post and decide for himself.
So again you are claiming I don't know what I'm doing because I live in and travel around the country in a motor home!! While your knowledge of softener sizing is based on what you read on spec sheets...

Anyway, what is your experience and background in sizing softeners and I'll include troubleshooting them for someone other than yourself; if you've ever actually done that. Tell us Bob, and if you don't, I say you are only using the spec sheets that you have mentioned reading a few days ago.

Look how few posts of yours are in reply to anyone with problems and compare them to your posts that in essence say I'm wrong about something.


And yes I have no doubt that there are unscrupulous dealers who would sell a 1.25" valve with a 1" distributor tube to an unsuspecting customer to make a little more profit. I hope you are not one of them.
You should have your answer about my scruples Bob because our discussion has me saying that Riverside doesn't need the larger valve.

I sold a WS-1 to a master plumber for a customer of his in a 135 seat steakhouse and then after he ordered it he called to apologize to me for saying I was wrong (just like you are here) and wanted to change from the WS-1.25" to the 1" two days after it had already shipped. He insisted as you are here that the 1" wouldn't deliver the gpm he needed. That was until he got his plumbing sizing books out and looked up what I told him.

IMO Bob, that is some of my actual and factual field experience and the unit is a year old next month. The only problem with it was someone left it run out of salt last summer. It is a 6.5 cuft (16 or 18" tank IIRC) WS-1.25" unit on 1.5" main with city water, reduced by that master plumber of 35 yrs from 2" (Peter).

Peter Griffin
02-08-2010, 09:34 AM
Well thanks for the info there but I don't make the rules, I enforce them. You and anybody else is more than welcome to file complaints and perhaps get things changed. I'm n ot in the change things business. I can not and will not overlook code violations based on how I feel about the code nor how I may feel about the situation or the individual. I don't make those distinctions because I do not want to take the liablility should something ever make it's way to court.

I have to ammend this though. Just because there is a 2" main coming into a building does not mean you have to keep it 2" The code only sets a minimum size and that is 3/4". What you do have to do though is to figure out the total load on the building taking into account number and type of fixtures, the incomiong pressure and the total developed length and head pressure on the system. 2" may very well have been grossly oversized right from the get go. Further more the steak house itself may not have needed to run softened water to all of their fixtures.

Bob999
02-08-2010, 09:38 AM
Look how few posts of yours are in reply to anyone with problems and compare them to your posts that in essence say I'm wrong about something.



Sad but there is a bit of truth in your statement--I have posted a number of times putting forth information only to have you bash me and the information I posted and then I have been in the position of providing explanations. Two examples stand out--when I posted that chlorine treatment is much less costly when done with a solution injector and bleach rather than using an inline pellet feeder and when I noted that zero grains per gallon hardness is not achieved in typical residental installations. In both cases you went on and on bashing me and posting diversionary information. However, in the end, I think the record shows that the information I posted was correct.

Gary Slusser
02-08-2010, 09:58 AM
There have been previous discussions about leakage. Let me say again that I understand that zero grains per gallon of hardness means zero parts per million of hardness. With that understanding I think it is misleading at best, and dishonest at worst, to describe a typical residential softener as delivering "0 gpg". It just doesn't happen with softeners regenerated with a few lbs of salt per cubic foot and used with flow rates of up to 9 gallons per cubic foot of resin.
Emphasis above is mine. And I'm going to correct you again by simply stating that in residential softening the test used is grains per gallon, not ppm or mg/l. And if a lab etc. does it in ppm or mg/l it is converted to gpg. Call any dealer or resin manufacturer and learn the error of your way Bob.

Bottom line Bob, all softeners are programmed to a certain K of capacity right?

Is that K in ppm or mg/l or is it in GPG (grains per gallon)? It is GPG, not mg/l or ppm Bob.

Yes there can be X ppm or mg/l (same measurement) in the softened water and the residential owner will never notice it or have it cause problems for him.

The spec sheet 1-5 ppm or mg/l per cuft is for industrial/commercial folks where over a certain ppm level, the hardness will cause them problems; like pharmaceutical, chemical, electronics and plating manufacturers as a small example Bob.


I think I understand from your previous posting on this matter that you use a fairly crude hardness test--one that is only calibrated in units of one or more grains per gallon and that what you really mean when you say "0 gpg" is that with the hardness test you use that the test doesn't show 1 or more gpg.
Well then you're wrong again Bob and I've explained it to you 3-4 times now but here you are again.

The test kit I send all softener customers (yes my supplier that ships the softener includes it, I personally do not ship anything from my no fixed address motor home....it's called drop shipping Bob) gives a hard test result if there is one or more gpg of hardness in their softened water because all softeners are set up in GPG Bob, not ppm or mg/l. And the salt efficiency is set based on X K of capacity per lb of salt used and per cuft of resin Bob.

Bob999
02-08-2010, 10:20 AM
And I'm going to correct you again by simply stating that in residential softening the test used is grains per gallon, not ppm or mg/l. And if a lab etc. does it in ppm or mg/l it is converted to gpg.

I disagree. In support of my position I point to the numerous posts on this website where hardness is expressed in PPM--these are posted by homeowners and, I am assuming, are for residential purposes.

Grains per gallon is simply a scale for expressing hardness, as is ppm. There is a very simple equivalency between the two scales. 17.1 ppm of hardness equals 1 grain per gallon per hardness.

So I believe that a correct statement is that both ppm and gpg are used in measuring residential hardness.

I do agree with your statement that the capacity of residential softeners is typically expressed in grains per gallon.

I note that you have posted nothing to indicate that my statement that 0 gpg is equal to 0 ppm is not correct.

As to your statement about spec sheets:


The spec sheet 1-5 ppm or mg/l per cuft is for industrial/commercial folks where over a certain ppm level, the hardness will cause them problems; like pharmaceutical, chemical, electronics and plating manufacturers as a small example Bob.


I believe that spec sheets are just that--specifications. They apply to industrial applications and they apply to residential applications.

Peter Griffin
02-08-2010, 11:03 AM
I think we have reached the point of impass.

Akpsdvan
02-08-2010, 11:06 AM
Wounder if I could still find that bomb shelter that we built as kids back in the 60's....

riverside67
02-08-2010, 12:07 PM
OK...so after all that. I just want to make sure that I experience the LEAST amount of pressure loss possible when under normal or full bore scenarios through the softener.

If the 1.25" will impart LESS psi loss, then I'll go with that...I mean..how much more can it be as compared to the 1" ?
If the 1.25" will impart the SAME psi loss as the 1" then it makes no sense to buy the 1.25"...

Gary Slusser
02-08-2010, 12:44 PM
Well thanks for the info there but I don't make the rules, I enforce them. You and anybody else is more than welcome to file complaints and perhaps get things changed. I'm n ot in the change things business. I can not and will not overlook code violations based on how I feel about the code nor how I may feel about the situation or the individual. I don't make those distinctions because I do not want to take the liablility should something ever make it's way to court.

I have to ammend this though. Just because there is a 2" main coming into a building does not mean you have to keep it 2" The code only sets a minimum size and that is 3/4". What you do have to do though is to figure out the total load on the building taking into account number and type of fixtures, the incomiong pressure and the total developed length and head pressure on the system. 2" may very well have been grossly oversized right from the get go. Further more the steak house itself may not have needed to run softened water to all of their fixtures.
The code also says ID reduction is fine as long as it does not reduce pressure below the minimum, and your statment would apply in this case of 1.25" or 1.5" water line and a 1" control valve. That is because we don't have a peak demand for the total house yet, just the large shower or two showers.

Gary Slusser
02-08-2010, 12:56 PM
I disagree. In support of my position I point to the numerous posts on this website where hardness is expressed in PPM--these are posted by homeowners and, I am assuming, are for residential purposes.

Grains per gallon is simply a scale for expressing hardness, as is ppm. There is a very simple equivalency between the two scales. 17.1 ppm of hardness equals 1 grain per gallon per hardness.
And notice that in all those cases the ppm is converted to GPG, because all softeners are set up and sized based on GPG. That is a fact.

Why we see ppm or mg/l in so many posts is due to labs and water companies stating hardness as ppm or mg/l. We also see numerous water companies and some labs saying that water with up to 150-180 ppm of hardness is soft; which it is not soft.

Peter Griffin
02-08-2010, 01:08 PM
Well, yes and no. What the code says is that in all cases you need to estimate demand and size the main accordingly and that in no case can you go with anything smaller than 3/4" Minumum pressure allowable is 8lbs which is pretty low pressure. And yes, things have changed considerably since the first post listing 44gpm and now we are at 1/2 that so at that flow a 1" main and 1" valve head would most probably serve just fine. However, it would not hurt anything to go up one size and it does seem that cost is not really an issue here.

Akpsdvan
02-08-2010, 01:10 PM
OK...so after all that. I just want to make sure that I experience the LEAST amount of pressure loss possible when under normal or full bore scenarios through the softener.

If the 1.25" will impart LESS psi loss, then I'll go with that...I mean..how much more can it be as compared to the 1" ?
If the 1.25" will impart the SAME psi loss as the 1" then it makes no sense to buy the 1.25"...

If your plumbing is 1.5 go with the 1.5, if it is 1.25 then the 1.25.... or if plumbing is 1.0 then go with it.

First choice is to match valve control for water treatment to plumbing size...

Bob999
02-08-2010, 01:26 PM
I agree with what Akpsdvan has posted. I just want to add that if you go with a valve head larger than 1" you need to ensure that your supplier uses a comparable sized distribution tube and that the installation is done with a comparably sized bypass.

As I understand it you are still designing the system for a max flow of 25 gpm and if you go with a 1" softener head the pressure loss through the head alone at a flow of 25 gpm--not counting the distribution tube, the distributor, the resin, and the bypass piping or all the other plumbing before your shower heads--will be nearly 15 psi (The specifications for the Clack WS1 head alone is 15 psi pressure drop at 27 gallons per minute).

Skip Wolverton
02-08-2010, 02:49 PM
I think there are at least two reasons for using a larger amount of resin (4 cubic foot in the specific example) if the assumed maximum demand is 20-25 gpm with 20 gpg hardness. First a bit of background information which I expect you know but that other readers may not:

1. The salt efficiency of a softener is higher when the maximum capacity of the resin is NOT used. If one cubic foot of resin is regenerated with 6 lbs of salt the salt efficiency is approximately 3400 grains per lb of salt and approximately 20,000 grains of capacity are available. If that same one foot of resin is regenerated with 15 lbs of salt the salt efficiency is about 2000 grains per lb of salt and about 30,000 grains of capacity are available. Resin manufacturers publish curves and regeneration rates for one cubic foot vary from 3 lbs per cubic foot to 15 lbs per cubic foot.

2. The hardness leakage of a softener is lower when the flow per cubic foot of resin is lower. The higher the flow rate per cubic foot of resin the higher the hardness leakage.

So, to answer your question as to why a larger softener might be used, it would be to achieve greater salt efficiency and/or lower hardness leakage. Depending on the cost of salt compared to the cost of resin and the larger tank required for the larger amount of resin and the customers discount rate it may or may not make economic sense to go with a larger amount of resin to achieve greater salt efficiency. Hardness leakage in the typical residential application is a matter of personal preference and again it is really up to the customer to decide what hardness leakage is satisfactory. The problem from the sellors point of view, in my opinion, is that it is very difficult to help the customer make an informed decision about an acceptable level of hardness leakage--getting reliable data about what hardness leakage will actually be is difficult at best and explaining or demonstrating the impact of hardness leakage is also problematic.
I agree with what you just said. Now if you have 4 cf of resin and only use 2 cf (40,000) there will not be any bleed through because of the extra resin. But you don't regen ALL the resin (80,000) so the extra 2 cf will be used up over time. Once that capacity is used up, what's to stop the bleed though? And what happen when the customer lets the unit run out of salt. Do they regn using 60 lbs salt. I think not. They will regen using the salt setting so only 40,000 are regened and the bleed though potentual is still there. I do agree that a softener might have a bleed through, but, it is so low, my test kit won't meassure it. This is way I said a 4 cf unit was over sized.

Bob999
02-08-2010, 03:50 PM
I agree with what you just said. Now if you have 4 cf of resin and only use 2 cf (40,000) there will not be any bleed through because of the extra resin. But you don't regen ALL the resin (80,000) so the extra 2 cf will be used up over time. Once that capacity is used up, what's to stop the bleed though? And what happen when the customer lets the unit run out of salt. Do they regn using 60 lbs salt. I think not. They will regen using the salt setting so only 40,000 are regened and the bleed though potentual is still there. I do agree that a softener might have a bleed through, but, it is so low, my test kit won't meassure it. This is way I said a 4 cf unit was over sized.

You raise interesting questions. I can only tell you how I think about it--and not with documentation to support that my thinking is correct.

I think that when you start with a fully regenerated resin bed--I will use a 1 cubic foot resin bed as an example and assume that a fully regenerated bed is 30,000 grains--then if only half of the capacity is used before regeneration, (15,000 grains) and the appropriate salt dose is used to regenerate 15,000 grains (about 4 lbs) it seems that a full 30,000 grains bed is again available. I can't really explain why this seems to be what happens and in some ways it appears to be counter intuitive because I think it is well understood and accepted that if that same 1 cubic foot of resin was fully exhaused that it would take 15 lbs of salt to fully regenerate it.

If the bed does become fully depleted--for what ever reason--it is necessary to recharge the bed with the maximum salt dose--15 lbs per cubic foot. As you know Gary Slusser recommends that the maximum dose be applied twice in succession if the bed is fully depleted and in my experience that works very well in reestablishing a fully charged bed that can then be successfully recharged with low salt doses after partial exhaustion.

Gary Slusser
02-08-2010, 06:29 PM
I agree with what Akpsdvan has posted. I just want to add that if you go with a valve head larger than 1" you need to ensure that your supplier uses a comparable sized distribution tube and that the installation is done with a comparably sized bypass.

As I understand it you are still designing the system for a max flow of 25 gpm and if you go with a 1" softener head the pressure loss through the head alone at a flow of 25 gpm--not counting the distribution tube, the distributor, the resin, and the bypass piping or all the other plumbing before your shower heads--will be nearly 15 psi (The specifications for the Clack WS1 head alone is 15 psi pressure drop at 27 gallons per minute).
And here I always thought that pressure loss depended on what pressure you were running the system at. Do you guys that are suggesting larger control valves think the system pressure has anything to do with this?

Akpsdvan
02-08-2010, 06:42 PM
Do we need to go back to class on all the items that can and do cause pressure drops and what drops at what pressure? Head loss at 20psi and head loss at 60 psi?

Gary Slusser
02-08-2010, 08:19 PM
Do we need to go back to class on all the items that can and do cause pressure drops and what drops at what pressure? Head loss at 20psi and head loss at 60 psi?
I've always noticed that the higher the pressure, the higher the pressure loss of fittings, valves, tubing etc.. I was wondering if you guys had any idea about that and the pressure loss figures on a control valve spec sheet.

Bob999
02-09-2010, 04:34 AM
Pressure loss is a function of flow. I think this is why the specs for softener heads are for pressure loss at a specified flow--the industry standard is to list the flow at which a 15 psi pressure drop occurs. Of course you need pressure differential to get flow so there is no pressure loss from flow if there is no pressure and as the input pressure to a system is increased the potential for greater flow also increases.

So I think Gary's observation of "the higher the pressure, the higher the pressure loss of fittings, valves, tubing etc" is fully consistent--higher pressure in a given system will result in higher flows when, for example, a faucet is opened. It is also consistent with the fact that pressure drop in the system is a function of flow--the higher the flow in any given system the higher the pressure drop.

Peter Griffin
02-09-2010, 05:11 AM
What we are really talking about is friction loss. PSI is a function of the pump delivering water to the system. Volume is dependent on pipe size, head pressure and friction loss. The fourmula is F=0.282 (110/c) 1.85 [(q)1.85/(d)4.8655]
where f = friction head in feet of liquid per 100' of pipe ( fittings, valves, equipment have an equivilant number assigned)
d = inside pipe diameter
q = Fluid flow in gpm
c = Surface roughness constant (from published data)

riverside67
02-09-2010, 11:46 AM
Psi loss is a function of velocity (mentioned as "flow" here). As velocity increases, friction increases (surface roughness), i.e. psi loss increases. If the static pressure to a system increases and the ID of the piping serving the system is not increased then the velocity (flow) increases and higher psi loss can result (although the resultant psi at the end of the line will still be higher after the psi losses are removed).

When pipe size is increased (larger ID) then the velocity is reduced at any given pressure, i.e. less psi loss. This is the whole reason why I'm leaning towards the 1.25" valve, larger ID, i.e. less psi loss at either normal or full bore flow at my given pressures. Plus I plan to run a 1.25" trunk line from the softener to the water heaters and then to the bathrooms.

I anticipate having ~ 65 psi at the home and would like more than 50 psi in the showers, especially considering the multiple shower head flow capability they will have.

Skip Wolverton
02-09-2010, 04:48 PM
You raise interesting questions. I can only tell you how I think about it--and not with documentation to support that my thinking is correct.

I think that when you start with a fully regenerated resin bed--I will use a 1 cubic foot resin bed as an example and assume that a fully regenerated bed is 30,000 grains--then if only half of the capacity is used before regeneration, (15,000 grains) and the appropriate salt dose is used to regenerate 15,000 grains (about 4 lbs) it seems that a full 30,000 grains bed is again available. I can't really explain why this seems to be what happens and in some ways it appears to be counter intuitive because I think it is well understood and accepted that if that same 1 cubic foot of resin was fully exhaused that it would take 15 lbs of salt to fully regenerate it.

If the bed does become fully depleted--for what ever reason--it is necessary to recharge the bed with the maximum salt dose--15 lbs per cubic foot. As you know Gary Slusser recommends that the maximum dose be applied twice in succession if the bed is fully depleted and in my experience that works very well in reestablishing a fully charged bed that can then be successfully recharged with low salt doses after partial exhaustion.
That is correct. When the resin has reached the exhaustion point, the entire bed needs to be regenerated. And as Gary has stated, do a back to back regen. That means using 4 cf has the potential bleed though the same as a 2 cf unit. So why use the extra 2 cf? Now you are moving 20 gpm through 2 cf and the manufacture states 6 gpm/cf. I will bet anyone you will not be able the measure the bleed through using a field test kit. It ios so small, it's not worth troubling over. I've been trying to teach Gary this for a long time.

Bob999
02-09-2010, 07:01 PM
That means using 4 cf has the potential bleed though the same as a 2 cf unit. So why use the extra 2 cf?

I don't understand how you get to the statement quoted above. Can you set it out step by step?

Gary Slusser
02-09-2010, 09:39 PM
Psi loss is a function of velocity (mentioned as "flow" here). As velocity increases, friction increases (surface roughness), i.e. psi loss increases. If the static pressure to a system increases and the ID of the piping serving the system is not increased then the velocity (flow) increases and higher psi loss can result (although the resultant psi at the end of the line will still be higher after the psi losses are removed).

When pipe size is increased (larger ID) then the velocity is reduced at any given pressure, i.e. less psi loss. This is the whole reason why I'm leaning towards the 1.25" valve, larger ID, i.e. less psi loss at either normal or full bore flow at my given pressures. Plus I plan to run a 1.25" trunk line from the softener to the water heaters and then to the bathrooms.
Agreed. Any idea of how much pressure loss with 65 psi through say 10" of 1" and then into 14"-16" for 65" and then into 6' of 1"?


I anticipate having ~ 65 psi at the home and would like more than 50 psi in the showers, especially considering the multiple shower head flow capability they will have.
If you want 65 psi then your pressure switch would be set at 55/75. And if you want constant 65, you need a CSV.

riverside67
02-10-2010, 05:19 AM
Agreed. Any idea of how much pressure loss with 65 psi through say 10" of 1" and then into 14"-16" for 65" and then into 6' of 1"?

If you want 65 psi then your pressure switch would be set at 55/75. And if you want constant 65, you need a CSV.

Again, psi loss is a function of velocity (or flow). You need to give me a desired flow through those lengths of pipe in order to calculate the losses.

My switch is set at 85-105 and yes I already have a 2" csv. The setting is so high due to the elevation difference between the well and the house pad (~ 30 psi loss). At flows above 5 gpm the csv is set at 95...i.e. ~ 65 psi at the home.

Peter Griffin
02-10-2010, 05:42 AM
[QUOTE=Gary Slusser;248272]Agreed. Any idea of how much pressure loss with 65 psi through say 10" of 1" and then into 14"-16" for 65" and then into 6' of 1"?


For 1" copper with a 5 ft/sec. velocity the charts show a 10 psi drop of 10 lbs/psi @ 20 gpm for 100' of pipe so.. that works out to 1/10lb/psi for 1' of pipe.

Gary Slusser
02-10-2010, 07:58 AM
Again, psi loss is a function of velocity (or flow). You need to give me a desired flow through those lengths of pipe in order to calculate the losses.
Yes I know. I was asking you because you have stated the flow as 20-22 gpm.

And the figures I mentioned are very close to the distance and internal ID of a 3-4 cuft softener with regular mesh resin including a gravel underbed and a Clack WS-1 (1") control valve, including the factory bypass valve with separate (1") in/outlet ball valves.


My switch is set at 85-105 and yes I already have a 2" csv. The setting is so high due to the elevation difference between the well and the house pad (~ 30 psi loss). At flows above 5 gpm the csv is set at 95...i.e. ~ 65 psi at the home.
IMO you are running too much pressure in the house and will probably create water hammer. For 2 people 50 psi is more than sufficient. Are you sure you aren't going to be exceeding the recommended max velocity of 5-8 ft/sec for the pipe you're using?

Skip Wolverton
02-10-2010, 08:43 AM
I don't understand how you get to the statement quoted above. Can you set it out step by step?
Gary said that I thought he would be using all 4 cf of resin. He is not. So the extra resin will catch the bleed through which means it will be used up and not regened. Once all the resin is used up, hardness bleed through may happen. The same goes for the 2 cf unit. Hardness is never a constant correct? So if the hardness were to raise more capacity is used. The same if the unit ran out of salt. IMO a 2 cf unit would be good for this application. Putting in a 4 cf unit is just overkill.

Bob999
02-10-2010, 09:34 AM
Gary said that I thought he would be using all 4 cf of resin. He is not. So the extra resin will catch the bleed through which means it will be used up and not regened. Once all the resin is used up, hardness bleed through may happen. The same goes for the 2 cf unit. Hardness is never a constant correct? So if the hardness were to raise more capacity is used. The same if the unit ran out of salt. IMO a 2 cf unit would be good for this application. Putting in a 4 cf unit is just overkill.

I think of all the resin (4 cubic foot as compared to 2 cubid foot) as being "used" because it is being "used" to get more salt salt efficiency and because it is being used to achieve lower leakage. The way I think about it the fact that with 4 cubic foot of resin that the unit is not set up to regenerate 120,000 grains at each regeneration is just a result of "using" the 4 cubic foot to achieve greater salt efficiency.

I agree that hardness typically varies. A system should be designed for the maximum hardnes seen to achieve consistently soft water. If the system is not so designed then the customer will almost certainly deplete the resin at some point and need to do the back to back max salt dose regenerations. But I see this as applying whether there is 2 cubic foot of resin or 4 cubic foot of resin.

Gary Slusser
02-10-2010, 10:53 AM
I think of all the resin (4 cubic foot as compared to 2 cubid foot) as being "used" because it is being "used" to get more salt salt efficiency and because it is being used to achieve lower leakage. The way I think about it the fact that with 4 cubic foot of resin that the unit is not set up to regenerate 120,000 grains at each regeneration is just a result of "using" the 4 cubic foot to achieve greater salt efficiency.
The cuft volume of resin required is based on the constant SFR gpm of the softener that is needed to cover the peak demand flow rate gpm of the water system the softener is installed on.


I agree that hardness typically varies. A system should be designed for the maximum hardnes seen to achieve consistently soft water. If the system is not so designed then the customer will almost certainly deplete the resin at some point and need to do the back to back max salt dose regenerations. But I see this as applying whether there is 2 cubic foot of resin or 4 cubic foot of resin.
Correct.

p.s. Bob he is not going to get it no matter how much it is explained to him.

Peter Griffin
02-10-2010, 11:08 AM
I fear that at this point there is little if any flesh left on the poor horse. :)

Bob999
02-10-2010, 11:44 AM
Correct.

p.s. Bob he is not going to get it no matter how much it is explained to him.

Gary, I guess I should be grateful that you aren't bashing my posts at this point but I really don't need you to tell me I am correct--and I don't think other readers need it either!

And I find your continuing need to bash posters, as you have done in the quote above, very inappropriate!

Gary Slusser
02-11-2010, 12:20 PM
Gary, I guess I should be grateful that you aren't bashing my posts at this point but I really don't need you to tell me I am correct--and I don't think other readers need it either!
I disagree with you Bob. I know that the members reading this want accurate information much more than an opinion because many of them are looking at spending hundreds of dollars or more to solve their water quality or equipment problems.


And I find your continuing need to bash posters, as you have done in the quote above, very inappropriate!
I think my comment is appropriate, especially for others reading this because I see that Skip doesn't believe you either; which is what I told you he would do. He's been doing this for about a year here under various names mostly just to disagree with me and now you start telling him the same as I have and he still doesn't get it. Posters need to see that so I drew attention to it.

Skip Wolverton
02-11-2010, 08:22 PM
I disagree with you Bob. I know that the members reading this want accurate information much more than an opinion because many of them are looking at spending hundreds of dollars or more to solve their water quality or equipment problems.


I think my comment is appropriate, especially for others reading this because I see that Skip doesn't believe you either; which is what I told you he would do. He's been doing this for about a year here under various names mostly just to disagree with me and now you start telling him the same as I have and he still doesn't get it. Posters need to see that so I drew attention to it.
Gary, how can you possible say what I believe? I just simply disagree with how you size your units. You use standards set for industrial use IMO. I have asked you serveral times why millions of customers use 1 cf units and don't complain about hardness bleed through. You have never answered that question in a way that makes sense or at all. The amount of bleed through is so minute you can not meassure it with a standard test kit. And that is what most service tech's use. I am in the field 6 days a week. I see a lot. I contract for several Big Box stores to service or install their units and I sell my own. IMO, you make it such a big deal only to sell more units.

Gary Slusser
02-11-2010, 11:12 PM
Gary, how can you possible say what I believe?
Becasue you have posted what you believe. As you do again below.


I just simply disagree with how you size your units. You use standards set for industrial use IMO. I have asked you serveral times why millions of customers use 1 cf units and don't complain about hardness bleed through. You have never answered that question in a way that makes sense or at all.
I have told you this and Bob has told you, resin usually has a SFR stated as 1-5 gpm per cuft. Those figures are for high commercial and industrial applications but the reason for them applies to residential also. You pay no attention to them. Or us and I doubt you are asking your service customers if they believe that their softener has consistently given them soft water over the years when it was working. I serviced softeners for 18 yrs and I didn't ask those customers or test to see if the water was hard because they told me it was hard when they called for service.


The amount of bleed through is so minute you can not meassure it with a standard test kit. And that is what most service tech's use. I am in the field 6 days a week. I see a lot. I contract for several Big Box stores to service or install their units and I sell my own. IMO, you make it such a big deal only to sell more units.
Many people with a softener can feel 1-2 gpg of hardness, and they accept it. And you can test for as little as 1 gpm with any Hach or other gpg type test kit.

So you think I sell more softeners because I oversize them... LOL You must think guys brag about the size of their softener. I've never heard of that.

Skip Wolverton
02-12-2010, 05:52 AM
Becasue you have posted what you believe. As you do again below.


I have told you this and Bob has told you, resin usually has a SFR stated as 1-5 gpm per cuft. Those figures are for high commercial and industrial applications but the reason for them applies to residential also. You pay no attention to them. Or us and I doubt you are asking your service customers if they believe that their softener has consistently given them soft water over the years when it was working. I serviced softeners for 18 yrs and I didn't ask those customers or test to see if the water was hard because they told me it was hard when they called for service.

Many people with a softener can feel 1-2 gpg of hardness, and they accept it. And you can test for as little as 1 gpm with any Hach or other gpg type test kit.

So you think I sell more softeners because I oversize them... LOL You must think guys brag about the size of their softener. I've never heard of that.

I test water DAILY. Do you understand DAILY? I don't see it. Again I don't see it. Do you understand that. I was taught the first thing you do is test water EVERYTIME you go to a customers house. That means I test if I deliver salt. I go through a 5B test kit about every 2-3 months. I just don't see the bleed through you talk about. So if I don't see it, and I test a lot of water in a week, then why the hell should I listen to you? Again, tell us why people don't complain to me about hard water bleed through.

Peter Griffin
02-12-2010, 08:12 AM
Can't we all just get along and be friends :)

Gary Slusser
02-12-2010, 08:18 AM
I test water DAILY. Do you understand DAILY? I don't see it. Again I don't see it. Do you understand that. I was taught the first thing you do is test water EVERYTIME you go to a customers house. That means I test if I deliver salt. I go through a 5B test kit about every 2-3 months. I just don't see the bleed through you talk about. So if I don't see it, and I test a lot of water in a week, then why the hell should I listen to you? Again, tell us why people don't complain to me about hard water bleed through.
So you are called for a service call and you don't find hard water when you test the softened water as soon as you get to the house....

Then what were you called out to the house for?

If it was because the softener hasn't been working or working right, and it is undersized like many are, and you show up 1-2 days or more after the call, the softener has probably regenerated since the phone call. So why are you testing the water as soon as you get there?

What is that test supposed to tell you anyway? Is it supposed to tell you if the person is lying to get the big box store etc. out of a warranty claim?

So since you don't test and find hard water, do you just bill the person for the service call and leave?

Or do you eventually find something wrong with the softener and fix it? Or not fix it and try to sell them a new softener like I hear is being done by service people?

Here's what you should be asking yourself INSTEAD OF ME, why didn't you find hard water IF there was something wrong with the softener? Or, why does the customer think he's getting hard water when you didn't find their water hard when you showed up and tested it?

And why didn't whatever you found wrong and then fixed cause you to find hard water????

Or, are you telling the person there's nothing wrong with their softener because you didn't get hard water in your test and then billing for the service call and leaving?

Also, what is a 5B test kit, a pack of 50 dip strips?

Skip Wolverton
02-12-2010, 09:24 AM
So you are called for a service call and you don't find hard water when you test the softened water as soon as you get to the house....

Then what were you called out to the house for?

If it was because the softener hasn't been working or working right, and it is undersized like many are, and you show up 1-2 days or more after the call, the softener has probably regenerated since the phone call. So why are you testing the water as soon as you get there?

What is that test supposed to tell you anyway? Is it supposed to tell you if the person is lying to get the big box store etc. out of a warranty claim?

So since you don't test and find hard water, do you just bill the person for the service call and leave?

Or do you eventually find something wrong with the softener and fix it? Or not fix it and try to sell them a new softener like I hear is being done by service people?

Here's what you should be asking yourself INSTEAD OF ME, why didn't you find hard water IF there was something wrong with the softener? Or, why does the customer think he's getting hard water when you didn't find their water hard when you showed up and tested it?

And why didn't whatever you found wrong and then fixed cause you to find hard water????

Or, are you telling the person there's nothing wrong with their softener because you didn't get hard water in your test and then billing for the service call and leaving?

Also, what is a 5B test kit, a pack of 50 dip strips?
I can tell by your statements that you didn't get into the filed much. How about services calls to repair an RO or just change the filters? How about a service call for a leak? How about a service to explain a unit to a customer that just moved in a has no idea how it works? All of these happen often. If it's a c
service call because the unit is not working, of coarse it's going to be hard water. Come on Gary, think. And the statement about what is a 5B test kit tells me a lot about you if you don't know what one is. I'm done with this conversation.

Akpsdvan
02-12-2010, 09:36 AM
Pick me ,,,, Pick me.... I know this,,,,

5B is the hardness test kit from HACH.... there is a bottle with powder a bottle with titrant solution .... been around for at least 20 years that I know of.

It is one of the basic items for any service tech that goes into the field and wishes to get an understanding of what the unit is doing or not doing.

Gary Slusser
02-12-2010, 10:51 AM
I can tell by your statements that you didn't get into the filed much. How about services calls to repair an RO or just change the filters? How about a service call for a leak? How about a service to explain a unit to a customer that just moved in a has no idea how it works? All of these happen often. If it's a c
service call because the unit is not working, of coarse it's going to be hard water. Come on Gary, think. And the statement about what is a 5B test kit tells me a lot about you if you don't know what one is. I'm done with this conversation.
"Of course it's going to be hard". Yet you previously said you have never seen it.

I see you use the same drop tritrant type Hack test kit that I did for 20+ years as a local dealer doing sales and service after a year with a large east coast company.

But I don't know a 5B test kit because I never bought just a hardness test kit.

I always bought replacement chemicals for mine that came with my large multiple test kit including copper, nitrates, nitrites, sulfates, chlorides, TDS, pH, iron, manganese, H2S etc. etc.. And I bought an incubator and did a Coliform bacteria test for well water which was 99% of all my business. And you think I didn't do service!

Try this;
It's the same that Bob999 posted text from in another thread about this same subject here last month. Where you didn't learn anything then or since but still... there's always a chance of a miracle. It's from a Purolite Regional Manager. Purolite is a large resin manufacturer.

RE: Peak flow & continuous flow through softener acc. to Fleck: Gary Schreiber CWS VI: 12/24/2009 10:58:41 AMThere is a definite limit to how fast you can flow water through ion exchange resin. Flowing too fast will result in leakage of ions. You can exceed the resin manufacturers specifications but the quality of the water produced will not be as good. For softening if you flow too fast that will result in higher hardness leakage. Many equipment manufacturers do have high flow rates showing in their specifications for softeners. For residential applications that may not be a problem because most home owners are happy of the hardness of their water is less than 1.5 grains per gallon. That can usually be achieved even when flowing faster than twice the resin specification. However if you follow Jim Wark's recommendations above you will never go wrong. (Gary Slusser comment here; if you use the SFR/cuft of the resin manufacturer, you'll be buying a much larger softener than needed and costing yourrself a large amount of money than you needed to spend, and run a serious risk of channelization.

For commercial/industrial applications it is always best to match the end user's flow rate to the resin manufacturer's flow rate. Most commercial/industrial end user's are sensitive to hardness leakage.
************

riverside67
05-19-2010, 11:55 AM
Two 100 gallon tank heaters could be sufficient depending on the temperature setting for the storage--it clearly would not be adequate at 120F but with higher storage temperatures could meet your requirements. If you go that route I believe that you should include mixing valves to to reduce the temperature of the supplied water.

Are mixing valves available in 1.25" sizes? These 100 gal tanks have 1.25" inlet/outlets.

Thanks!

Wally Hays
05-19-2010, 12:19 PM
Sparco, Honeywell and Leonard all make 1.25 tempering valves

riverside67
05-19-2010, 02:12 PM
If I had two 75 or 100 gallon tanks would each one require a mixing valve? Would it make any difference if they were plumbed in series or parallel?

Thanks!

riverside67
05-24-2010, 09:57 AM
We've decided on:
4.0 cu ft softener
1.25" Fleck 7000 valve
oversized distribution tube inside the resin tank.