whole house water filters?

[eric28805]

Does anyone here have experience with them? I have a community well system with treated water, but there is a slight rust taste. I'm hoping that one of these would fix that. Locally, I can get systems made by Ace Hardware, Culligan and Whirlpool. The prices range from about $35 to about $60 (plus filters).

[Dunbar Plumbing]

I install them quite often. The key to a good system is the maintenance. Most I have installed are the two canister, one paper wound and one carbon. Carbon is for taste and odor, paper or string wound is for sediment. Keep it simple and remember the better it filters, the shorter the life of filter, the more restrictive it is. (pressure) Single containers are fine; just change it a minimum every 3 months or what is dictated by gallon usage.

[plumber1]

In most areas that I see, a whole house filter isn't practicle.
It's too expensive to use canister filters on anything but dedicated cold water lines for drinking water.

[Gary Slusser]

"whole house" filters are not a good solution for your problem. If your water supply is chlorinated, you should not remove chlorine on a 'whole house' basis, it is a bad idea. Disposable cartridge filters are the wrong choice for most main line/POE (point of entry) water quality problems; although many are sold, so are toy type kitchen faucet tip filters....

A taste like rust says you have iron in the water or steel pipe in your plumbing. If you want to filter the drinking and cooking water, use a drinking water filter under the sink with its own separate faucet. And don't buy proprietary types, buy industry standard housings, cartridges and faucets that you can buy from most internet and local water treatment dealers. You can save substantial bucks and install it yourself.

And if your water isn't chlorinated, be careful, carbon (used to improve taste and odor) is not to be used on water of unknown microbiologiacl content.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

[Dunbar Plumbing]

That's funny, I didn't know that all these stores, plumbing supply houses, and the average user of these were so wrong until I read this:



"whole house" filters are not a good solution for your problem. If your water supply is chlorinated, you should not remove chlorine on a 'whole house' basis, it is a bad idea. Disposable cartridge filters are the wrong choice for most main line/POE (point of entry) water quality problems; although many are sold, so are toy type kitchen faucet tip filters

Wait a minute, that is the first step of introducing a sale, dismiss everything else and introduce what I think the person wants.




A taste like rust says you have iron in the water or steel pipe in your plumbing. If you want to filter the drinking and cooking water, use a drinking water filter under the sink with its own separate faucet. And don't buy proprietary types, buy industry standard housings, cartridges and faucets that you can buy from most internet and local water treatment dealers. You can save substantial bucks and install it yourself.


Oh. I guess this is the buy line that nothing else is better than what you have right? :confused:



And if your water isn't chlorinated, be careful, carbon (used to improve taste and odor) is not to be used on water of unknown microbiologiacl content.



A little bit of fear always helps in the closing too it seems. I don't recall either of these types of filter doing this, must be salesmanship. Maybe now that we now know these products are so wrong for the potable water system I look to see all of these products pulled off the shelf as a result of Gary's lack of ability to sell them.


I couldn't even begin to tell people of the results they have had with Gary's Toy Type faucet tip filters. I have seen people religiously install whole house filters with the string wound type filters to keep leaves and asphalt shingle specs from entering their pump systems, their faucets, showers, toilet fill valves. Make it known that I recently installed a whole house filter for a customer for the sole reason that the city water was affecting her and her baby's skin due to the high levels of chlorine. Last time I checked, they are still alive, not living in fear that Gary would like you to be and seem to be free of rashes from the skin irritation caused by their water system. I suggest that anyone who has a system such as a whole house filter, toy type faucet tip filter consider the source of knowledge that is presented in this thread and understand that the majority of people on this site are here to help, not indirectly sell you water treatment products.

[jimbo]

Well, I have to agree with Gary. ( I am NOT in the water quality or filter business). Carbon filters do remove chlorine and I do not believe that is a good idea on a whole house basis,even though they are sold.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Well, I have to agree with Gary. ( I am NOT in the water quality or filter business). Carbon filters do remove chlorine and I do not believe that is a good idea on a whole house basis,even though they are sold.


Correct. They do remove chlorine and depending on where you live and how close to your water treatment facility the chlorine levels are too high, thus causing reactions that are dangerous. Carbon filters are bought, sold, and installed with certain levels of filtering to adjust how much it affects the water it treats. If carbon filters posed such a harmful threat that Gary implies (wink,wink) then they would not sell them to the general public in just about every supply house. I would like to see all the threads on all the usernet forums where this is such a bad thing as one implies. And thanks for the clarification that your not in the business. :D I've seen your posts and you are legit and honest with no intent other than to help others who need it. :D

[plumber1]

I agree with JIMBO...............and Gary too........

[Lighthouse]

hmmm. I'm new here and found the exchange enlightening.

While it's true that basic filters are not effective against microbiologically unsafe water, the reason is that they do nothing to sanitize the water. What does carbon or fiber-wound have to do with that? The post suggests that somehow using a carbon filter will introduce a biological hazard. Huh? If you have unsafe water, you have a serious problem, with or without a filter.

The original question was simple: I have rusty water - will a whole-house filter help?

The answer may be a whole house filter, unless the source of the rust in inside of your home. You need to determine that first. Then you can decide where to install a filter, whether at the point-of-use (faucet), or a whole house system. Or even if you need to fix something inside your home - a recent appearance of rust may indicate a about-to-rupture water heater.

Consider that a whole-house filter will generally reduce the available water pressure everywhere in the home. Is that acceptable? Do you have enough/excess pressure at your showers?

Whatever you decide, I strongly recommend that you follow the manufacturer's replacement guidelines for the pressure-containing parts. If they say replace the tank every 5 or 10 years, mark your calendar and do it. I've personally seen too many ruptured filter housings to install a filter in my own home, but I also don't have any serious water quality issues here.

[Gary Slusser]

All waters have some bacteria in them. Bacteria thrive in carbon, or maybe you know it as charcoal, and they multiply greatly given all the organics carbon filters remove plus it's a fairly constant temperature but higher to least room temp most of the time and dark environment. A carbon filter is a prime place for bacterial growth.

Now I suppose someone will disagree with the all waters statement... so lets nail it down, waters that don't have the proper free chlorine residual in them.

Sediment cartridges can also provide a place for reducing bacteria to work their magic.

Sanitizing is not the same as a disinfectant but there are some cartridge type cleanable cartridges used for filtering of bacteria, not on a "whole house" basis though due to very low flow rates. And there are bacteriostatic type 'filters' and/or materials in disposable cartridges. Bacteriostatic is not bactericide.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

[toolaholic]

please walk me through the process of determining what whole house filter system would work best for my home. is there a brand that has superior hardware? thank,s in advance,

[Gary Slusser]

I guess RUGGED missed your post, or he's still thinking...

Gary
Quality Water Associates

[jimbo]

I base my post on simple observation in my home. I have a little undersink tastse and odor filter for drinking water. The inlet and outlet are plumbed with the milky poly tubing. About once a year, I notice the tubing carrying the filtered water starts to get "scummy" inside. The tubing on the inlet side does not show this. I replace the outlet tubing as required. SO, I drew some conclusions based on this and that's my opinion. I do not have a scientific report to support this. Carbon filters obviously do remove the chlorine. That is their principle function in life, since chlorine is one of the things contributing to bad taste. They certainly advertise that they remove chlorine, and you all are correct that none of the filters we have discussed are OK to use on water that is not already bacteriologically safe.

[Gary Slusser]

Additionally, the taste and smell of chlorine does not harm you. But chlorine disinfection by products (DPBs) called THMs (trihalomethanes) are carcinogens (cancer causing agents) and do harm many people. "whole house" disposable cartridge filters CAN NOT remove them. They pass through any general purpose full flow carbon (GAC) filter.

So anyone wanting to sell you one, and/or install one when you mention anything leading to buying one, or if you want one 'cuz EVERYone has one!, or suggesting you should want to have one, frankly is not looking out for your best interests. IMO they are misinformed at least and looking for a quick sale. That type filter should be used as jimbo is using his or, undersink for the kitchen sink faucet, not on a "whole house" main water line basis.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

[Vitaliy]

OK,
I may go too far but recently I installed:
- under sink RO (Reverse Osmosis) filtration system:
- carbon shower head filter for each on shower head:
- two stages (sediment and carbon) whole house filter;

The results are:
- city water: Ph = 8.3, TDS = 150 – 200;
- after whole house filter: Ph=7.9, TDS ~ 100:
- RO filtered water: Ph=7.4, TDS=0:

Bottled water (Poland Spring) has Ph=8.0 and TDS = 70
(not too far away from produced by whole house filter).

TDS (Total Dissolved Solids) measured with HM Digital meter
and Ph – Hanna Instruments, PHEP-3
After only two weeks of use 5 micron sediment paper filter already
looks too rusty.

So, each filter does its job. Yes, in some cases filters may create
bacteria related problem. If this case I’ll add UV (Ultra Violet) disinfector
to my whole house filtration system.

As far as chlorine (and in some cases fluoride) goes believe it or not
the main problem is not a drinking water but taking shower.
Hot water coming out from shower had quickly cools down and releases
a lot of dissolved gases. This creates a very nice gas chamber and
inhaled chlorine is many times more toxic then consumed with water.

For those who interested in under sink filtration system should seriously
consider RO system. RO filters are more expensive then simple carbon
filters but they are doing much better filtration job
(check measurements results above).

- Vitaliy

PS.
I am not a water/plumber expert, I am electronic design engineer.

[Gary Slusser]

OK,
I may go too far but recently I installed:
- under sink RO (Reverse Osmosis) filtration system:
- carbon shower head filter for each on shower head:
- two stages (sediment and carbon) whole house filter;

The results are:
- city water: Ph = 8.3, TDS = 150 – 200;
- after whole house filter: Ph=7.9, TDS ~ 100:
- RO filtered water: Ph=7.4, TDS=0:

Bottled water (Poland Spring) has Ph=8.0 and TDS = 70
(not too far away from produced by whole house filter).

TDS (Total Dissolved Solids) measured with HM Digital meter
and Ph – Hanna Instruments, PHEP-3
After only two weeks of use 5 micron sediment paper filter already
looks too rusty.

So, each filter does its job. Yes, in some cases filters may create
bacteria related problem. If this case I’ll add UV (Ultra Violet) disinfector
to my whole house filtration system.

As far as chlorine (and in some cases fluoride) goes believe it or not
the main problem is not a drinking water but taking shower.
Hot water coming out from shower had quickly cools down and releases
a lot of dissolved gases. This creates a very nice gas chamber and
inhaled chlorine is many times more toxic then consumed with water.

For those who interested in under sink filtration system should seriously
consider RO system. RO filters are more expensive then simple carbon
filters but they are doing much better filtration job
(check measurements results above).

- Vitaliy

PS.
I am not a water/plumber expert, I am electronic design engineer.

Yes in many if not most cases, RO is overkill in a big way. The basis for an RO is what and how much of it is in your water that you need a RO for, that something else won't do the job. In most cases a dual stage drinking water filter with its own faucet, RO type, is a much better choice if you don't have something in the water that requires a RO to reduce it. A RO membrane doesn't remove 100% of anything, most of what a RO (a system of pre and post cartridges and the membrane) removes is done by carbon block disposable cartridge. You can have one in a multiple stage filter for drinking and cooking water needs.

TDS stands for Total Dissolved Solids, like sugar dissolved in a glass of water. So how does your "whole house" 5 micron pleated paper filter remove things that are dissolved in the water? Actually they don't, can't and won't.

You've already contaminated your RO, including the membrane. ANd the "whole house" carbon is possibly going to allow bacteria to increase and contaminate the RO prefilter, usually carbon.

I use computer experts for my computer needs and do my own water treatment based on my training and knowledge of water treatment. :)

Gary
Quality water Associates

[master plumber mark]

whole house filters are no good...

too much maintaince as far as I am concerned

cahngeing out cartridges every two months.

I dont think they do a good a job as a simple water conditioner


I am asking GARY, because even though he sells stuff on
the internet, and everyone seems to think he has some sort of
evil plan and adgenda to rule the world....

he still knows what he is talking about...


the carbon filters VS just a plain old water conditoner....

give me the pros and cons here......I need the education

Gary, please if you got the time...


ps ...I just spent my evening cleaning out a
house where an Autotrol WS decided to blow a gasket
and fill the plumbing with resin. Just got home at 9.30 est.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

ps ...I just spent my evening cleaning out a
house where an Autotrol WS decided to blow a gasket
and fill the plumbing with resin. Just got home at 9.30 est.


I had an Autotrol today blow an O-ring out where it connects to the tank. Was shooting water for 9 hours and shot a hole through a drywall wall and destroyed someone's computer.

[jimbo]

I recommend less water and more Bushmill's 12 year old. You will not care what's in the water.

[Kristi]

lol, Glenlivet... it'll smooth that water right out :)

[Vitaliy]

Hi Gary,

I do appreciate your knowledge and experience. I am here to learn
something new but I am also an engineer and I do trust instruments
and measurements. I took three samples of water and measured Ph
and TDS with the same instruments. There is definitely a Ph and TDS
(they are somewhat related to each other) reduction after each filter. My “whole house filter” is actually two stages filter – paper and carbon.
Yes, paper filter does not remove any dissolved particles (it actually
removes particles, bigger then 5 microns in size and this must have
some effect on TDS reading) but carbon filter does (this is carbon/kfc
combined cartridge).

You said, my RO system already contaminated.
Contaminated with what?
Are you talking about bacterial contamination because of a
“whole house filter” is in front of RO?
Before my current installation I had a single stage under sink carbon filter
for many years (of cause cartridge was replaced once a year) and I did
not notice any evidence of bacteria growth. As you mentioned yourself,
RO filtration system has carbon and sediment cartridges before the
membrane. So, if carbon cartridge can introduce a bacterial problem
(and yes, unfortunately sometime it does) then the same problem still will
be there but localized just to drinking water instead of spreading across
the entire plumbing system. Of course, this is not good and if it will happened
then I’ll add UV disinfector – much better then very toxic and poison chlorine
which must be removed (I did a lot of research) before water is actually
used. These days toxic and poison chlorine must not be used in a first
place for water treatment. Unfortunately all alternatives are more
expensive and required big $$$ investments but this is different story.

- Vitaliy

[plumber1]

We're really blowing this topic way out of perportion.
I like what Gary says. It's simple.... I like Mark's comment too.

[Gary Slusser]

I am asking GARY, because even though he sells stuff on
the internet, and everyone seems to think he has some sort of
evil plan and adgenda to rule the world....

he still knows what he is talking about...

the carbon filters VS just a plain old water conditoner....

give me the pros and cons here......I need the education

Gary, please if you got the time...


ps ...I just spent my evening cleaning out a
house where an Autotrol WS decided to blow a gasket
and fill the plumbing with resin. Just got home at 9.30 est.

Really there is little comparison. Carbon removes taste and odor and a softner exchanges ions that cause probems with sodium or potassium ions BUT... A 'conditioner' has more than resin in it. Usually they will have resin and carbon. Which is a bad idea because resin rarely needs replacing in such a short time as carbon does. And to get rid of the spent carbon, you usually have to replace the resin too. Plus most waters contain bacteria, and bacteria LUV to live and multiply in it. I hope that helps.

I suspect many old Autotrol softeners and filters, say 20 years old or more, will have leaks caused by chlorine and now chlormines attacking their orings. Autotrol has a lot of orings! Ever take a top module off any of them? There are 6-8 orings sealing the top to the middle module alone, and there is the base yet. Fleck and Clack control valves don't have those problems.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

ps Thanks for your support.

[Gary Slusser]

"I had an Autotrol today blow an O-ring out where it connects to the tank. Was shooting water for 9 hours and shot a hole through a drywall wall and destroyed someone's computer."

What with your bad back and you hobbling around'n all, you know that with you being 6' 8" and 360, you shouldn't be to leaning on things... :)

You sure it wasn't the tank thread part.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

[Gary Slusser]

Vitaliy,

I have a fair amount of experience in trying to convince engineers of 'things'! Like pH and TDS having much to do with each other. :) Example, RO and distilled waters have a very low TDS content but a pH of neutral 7.0+/-; I think you demonstrated that in your test results no? If not test for me and see. Then convince me that a pleated paper, string wound, or spun sediment cartridge reduces pH. Now possibly a carbon carbon may.

About the contaminating the RO. If you need a UV, by the time you realize that, the bacteria has contaminated your RO; both filters and membrane. Bacteria go right through your prefilter cartridges and all it takes is for one to get half through the membrane and your storage tank is contaminated too, along with any final stage inline carbon filter on the line to the faucet. RO cannot be used for bacteria filtration, regardless what consumers and some people in the water treatment business say.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

[Gary Slusser]

If you didn't want a comment on your service call, why post about it?

Actually my reply was supposed to be a funny. And I still think it was and is. LOL

But since you took it seriously, let's look at what you say negatively about me over the last few months since you started to post here. You'll see many more posts from you about me than me posting about you. And I've posted here for years. What's with that, you can give it but can't take it when you're on the other end?

I'll make you an offer, stop your personal and negative replies to and about me and skip reading my posts. I bet we get along just fine.

Also. you don't see or hear about me going to Terry, or HJ, or jimbo etc. about you. Aren't you big enough to take care of yourself! I think that's funny too. LOL

As to who you are, I've had your replies like these in this thread to me for over two years as of last month. I have some of them along with a few emails about you from webmasters etc. quoting what you've said to them, and what and how you say it here is all but verbatim to those previous posts on those other sites you keep mentioning you got me banned from.

Anyone wanting copies, let me know, I have a folder full.

Terry, after reading this, I'm all for you deleting it and I'm sorry for the need to defend myself but I think it's necessary rather than me letting his personal negativism to continue.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

[master plumber mark]

I am trying to figure out what your
evil adgenda is >>??? selling water conditioniers??

Are you planning on
overthrowing Terry as owner of this web site????

Is that it,??? --GOTCHA !!

are you trying to corner the water conditioner market???
thats doubtful.

What did you do some time in the past that has
caused all this animonisity???

Inquireing minds want to know..................
-------------------------------------------------------

Did you sell defective products to someone on this site???

Have you sold good quality products to someone that has
visited this site???

And if you have committed this terrible-- horrible crime,
WHAT IN THE WORLD IS THE PROBLEM WITH DOING THIS???

did you put a gun to their heads and force them to buy a
water conditioner from you over the internet????

is everyone concerned because you arent collecting TAXES on
what you sell???



Maybe you took their money and not send them the product??


I simply dont understand what all this SNOTTY BICKERING is all about


GARY---
You have my personal permission to
Go ahead and sell your water condtioners to someone in
Moose Head Montanna , Florida, whenever or whereever you
want to or anywhere else in the USA
what the hell do I care?? Even in Indianapolis .....its OK WITH ME.

I dont give a damn.

[Vitaliy]

Hi Gary,

As I said, I am not an expert in plumbing and/or water treatment area.
As far as my measurements – so far they are very consistent.
I am 100%+ agree with you that paper filter cannot remove any chemicals
and/or dissolved particles (and I did not say this, did I?). Carbon filter can
and does remove some chemicals, including very toxic and poison chlorine.
I will be very glad if you can provide/post reasonable professional
interpretation of my results. Whatever they are, they are reality.
I did a lot of research about different filters. I learned a lot of good things
about RO and GAC filters. One of the potential problem with whole house
GAC is a possibility of bacterial contamination. But this is a “possibility”
which means it may or may not be a case. I really would like to get rid
entirely of that chlorine (why I want to do this is a different story) in my
plumbing system. Now I have a couple questions to you and would like to
hear a professional advice:
- Should I immediately add a UV stage?
- If “yes” could you please, recommend one?
- Should I just replace GAC with different cartridge?
- If ‘yes” which one is good?
- Should I simply remove GAC and let RO and “shower head” filters do
the job alone?
- What will be your recommendation(s) for “whole house” water
treatment/filtration?

Thank you,

- Vitaliy

[Gary Slusser]

No to adding a UV, you have no need for one.

"Should I simply remove GAC and let RO and “shower head” filters do
the job alone?" Yes, that's what I'd do and suggst to anyone wanting my opinion.

Then change your sediment and GAC RO prefilters and post inline filter if any, every 6 months and sanitize their housings/sumps. That will help keep bacteria growth down as best as possible. When you replace the membrane, sanitize the whole system housing/sumps and tank and all tubing by putting a capful of bleach in each and filling the tank and to the faucet. Then let sit for an hour or so and empty the bleach water and then flush every thing out and put your filters and membrane in.

When you were doing your research, you should have leraned that the number one cause of membrane failure is bacterial growth....

Your RO is working as it should. You're in good shape. The sediment "whole house" cartridge should be changed based on a 15 psi pressure drop across it. To see that, you'd need to add two pressure gauges, one before and one after the housing. The pressure drop is dynamic pressure, full flow peak demand.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

[Gary Slusser]

I am trying to figure out what your
evil adgenda is >>??? selling water conditioniers??

Are you planning on
overthrowing Terry as owner of this web site????

What did you do some time in the past that has
caused all this animonisity???

And if you have committed this terrible-- horrible crime,
WHAT IN THE WORLD IS THE PROBLEM WITH DOING THIS???

I simply dont understand what all this SNOTTY BICKERING is all about

GARY---
You have my personal permission to
Go ahead and sell your water condtioners to someone in
Moose Head Montanna , Florida, whenever or whereever you
want to or anywhere else in the USA
what the hell do I care?? Even in Indianapolis .....its OK WITH ME.

I dont give a damn.

I've been posting on Terry's forums here for years. I've never had any problems with anyone until now with rugged and justalurker.

I have helped many people all over the internet since Jan 1997 and people look me up and post questions wherever I post. IOWs, I bring a fair amount of traffic to any forum I post in. The sites that rugged says he got me banned from, there is a Filters and Conditioners forum at ************.com that is dying since I don't post there. And frankly, Terry should benefit from my posting here because in many cases these people are DIYers that may buy something from him. IMO they should because he certainly knows his 'stuff'.

Rugged is DUNBAR or DUNBAR PLUMBER on other sites and we've had numerous disagreements over correct information over the last two years since he started posting on the internet (8/2003). If he says (again) that he's not DUNBAR PLUMBER, ask him for his IP address and I'll prove who he is.

Frankly he gives bad advice and in many cases with water treatment and pumps, wrong advice that can cause a guy problems or a lot of money. When I reply with information that corrects his, he takes it personal and has since day one. This thread is a prime example and there are others on the site.

He is trying to maintain or protect his image so that prospective customers in his service area will use his services. His web site says that he replies to people in his area, upper KY and the Cincinnati area of OH. It's www.dunbarplumbing.com He has links to a number of forums he posts in and/or is a moderator of; except Terry's... And THEN he accuses me of advertising because of my use of a tag line that I've used for many years; Gary Quality Water Associates. And he complains when I tell someone to search for something that brings up my web site although there are many others in the results also.

My tag line is to say I'm a professional, rather than your average usenet or web site forum posting DIYer, or frankly a plumber that doesn't know this stuff as well as a water treatment or pump contractor guy does. Tag lines (and signatures) are from the old time DOS BBS days, the predecessor of usenet newsgroups and forums on web sites. I've been using computers since 1982.

I don't do local business. I have not advertised my "company" as he calls it, for roughly 2.5 years now. I do internet sales of water treatment equipment. He accuses me of 'selling' and "advertising" wherever I post, and he's used that to get me banned on other sites. Well I do a lot of pump and well posts too, but as yet I don't sell pumps over the internet and I've never done plumbing except to install whatever I've sold.

Justalurker is a customer of mine. His softener is working very well (so he says) and has been since July/Aug 2004 when he bought it. You can read on my forum on my web site where he says that just two weeks ago and that he'd buy from me again. The thread is "So everyone has both sides". I won't sell anything to him though, he's a PIA whinny knows everything type customer. He is upset with me for the same reason rugged is; I corrected him when he was telling my customers and all others that read the forum that I was wrong about having to increase the salt dose by up to 30% when substituting potassium for sodium chloride when my salt dose was less than 6 lbs/cuft of resin. He provided me 24 jpg files that prove I'm right. He then deleted all the text in his posts and replaced it with 'nevermind'. I said he disrupted my forum and he wrote me an email telling me to not comment publicly about his actions, that I should have emailed him. I disagreed and he emailed me again (at 12 or 1:30 AM) and I didn't reply soon enough I guess because that afternoon, he pasted the email in a post on my forum. So I did the same with my email reply I was typing to him when I saw that he did that. That was on a Sunday BTW. My post has his email address in it and that is what he is upset with me about. Then he called the next Friday and I paid ($.07/min) for a 1 hour and 32 minute phone call on my 800 number to listen to him whine and deny any responsibility in the problem. Now he follows me around and posts how no one should buy from me on'n on. I think he saw rugged doing it and getting away with it and decided he'd follow suit. I decided enough is enough and replied.

So that's the history and reasons for this as I see them.

Correction, in checking my accuracy, RUGGED/DUNBAR/DUNBAR PLUMBER has removed the Cincinnati OH part from his web site. Just the other day here he mentioned OH though...

Gary
Quality Water Associates