I really dislike American values.

[Ian Gills]

The price of gas seems OK at the moment but everything else seems to be going up.

Or am I just buying more stuff?

Things are getting expensive again.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5XX9LX2es4

[frenchie]

I think you're just buying more stuff.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

The size of products are getting smaller. No way around that at this point as they are lessening the portions of meals, the oz. in jars and containers, the total weight of certain household items, like cereal or bagged items.


We are the fools of many gimmicks at this point it seems...

[master plumber mark]

I agree with you about american values...
we think we are the policeman of the world



if they keep de-valueing the dollar, its just a matter
of time before we simply wont be able to maintain
the "policeman of the world" atitude any longer...


what I cant understand is how they are keeping the
price of oil down when the value of our dollar is going into the toilet also,,,,,
I sort of wonder if it is to lull us into
a sense of well being while the currency is being destroyed....??



gas is presently 235 near my home ,,,, is that cheap ??

[Ian Gills]

I think your children are entitled to 4$-a-gallon gas Mark which will be needed to save the planet from global warming you see.

We need some cap and trade.

I'm hearing a lot on the news from Conservative "victims" at the moment, complaining about their taxes.

There's nothing wrong with a bit of pork.

[Cass]

Ian...please show me any real science that proves that global warming is caused by fossel fules and is not just normal climate change that is going to happen reguardless...and then prove that any human efforts to do anything about it will work the way we want it to....

[Cass]

BTW Ian...pork...is what almost killed me...I don't want the USA to have a heart attack from it either...:D

[Ian Gills]

Ian...please show me any real science that proves that global warming is caused by fossel fules and is not just normal climate change that is going to happen reguardless...and then prove that any human efforts to do anything about it will work the way we want it to....

No Cass because this is simply common sense. http://www.google.com/landing/cop15/

And it's not human efforts that are really required....just American ones, namely doing something about your cheap gas.

Anyway I do not have to show anything. Your democratically-elected Government will act on this regardless, so the people have spoken.

Cap and trade, Government healthcare and democracy all go hand-in-hand.

I feel sorry for the poor Conservative "victims" and their taxes though.

But we owe it to your kids. And I am ready to pay more for them. Are you?

[Cass]

Lets see..correct me if I am wrong...

you think humans caused climate change and humans changing the climate is all just common sense...

that no scientific provable data is needed to show humans have caused the problem and that anything we do will correct it...


and that historical data showing that radical climate changes that have occurred in the past, without human intervention, could not possibly be happening now...

All we need is common sense...have I got it right...

[Ian Gills]

that no scientific provable data is needed to show humans have caused the problem and that anything we do will correct it...


and that historical data showing that radical climate changes that have occurred in the past, without human intervention, could not possibly be happening now...

Cass. There is ample evidence.....and a few crackpot Amercian scientists who are skeptics but seem to make the news here because Americans just hate paying taxes. I quite like paying taxes because I like to see how they help out poor Americans.

CO2 is a greenhouse gas and has conclusively been shown to cause global warming. And it's no coincidence that CO2 levels have rocketed since the industrial revolution, especially in America where the average American produces 4 times the CO2 emissions as the average Chinese person.

It's time for corrective measures, and we leave that to the economists.

And one of the best corrective measures, is a tax on your gas.

It's for the good of your (grand)children Cass who will have to live with and fix the consequences (I have none, so either way I am fine).

Common sense i.e. something even "common" people who in times of old could not afford to go to school should have been born with.

[master plumber mark]

[quote=Ian Gills;238437]No Cass because this is simply common sense. http://www.google.com/landing/cop15/

quote]


IAN.. thanks for the al gore thingey.......

he makes a great case..and is probably more right than we all want to admit to...

their are 6 billion people on the planet and 90% or most of them are living in poverty or close to starvation... and the wealthy could care less...

no one wants to admit to the problem becasue it would mean that some countries standards of living would have to be dramatically reduced..

like the USA and England ......they are not willing to use 80% less...it is not going to happen...

unless everyone wants to stop re-produceing more human beings and consumeing, its not really going to matter cause it was probably too late 50 years ago....


something will happen , the Earth it self is changeing right before our eyes... very quickly in Geologic terms ....
when you consider you can go to Iceland and watch the glacires and ice flows
moving and crashing on their way out to sea...
they are very concerned up there....


We are really nothing more than microbes that inhabit this beautiful being.. and most of us are un-aware that the earth is actually alive and humanity is just a small organisim living upon it....


IAN...things could dramatically change almost overnight....


so you can all debate who is to blame till your jaws fall off....


I would rather just be happy and try to make life the best I
can with the short amount of time that is probably left...

before the poo hits the collective fan

[Ian Gills]

I vote Mark for President.

...if I could vote that is.

[Peter Griffin]

Ian, pretty soon that tongue of yours is gonna be too big to fit in your cheeks. ;)

[Ian Gills]

I'm just asking the difficult questions Peter because someone has to.

If you know how to plumb a gas water heater, how difficult can it be to fix global warming? I mean, really.

If you cut the gas, the thing cools down. It's not rocket science.

[Peter Griffin]

Well, tis about to be below zero here for about a week so they say so I am in favor of all the global warming I can get. :D

When I was in college in the 70's, all the global scientists were warning of the coming ice age. Strange how that talk all shifted 180 degrees (no pun intended ) when no one paid any attention and there wasn't any money to be made off the whole prospect.

[Ian Gills]

Yeah, but this is real this time.

Those were the 70s after all when Uncle Jesse was still a moonshine "ridge-runner" making the finest shine this side of the Mason-Dixon.

Jesse Duke drove a 1973-77 Ford F-100 pickup truck: a cause of the problem we see today.

[frenchie]

Well, tis about to be below zero here for about a week so they say so I am in favor of all the global warming I can get. :D

When I was in college in the 70's, all the global scientists were warning of the coming ice age. Strange how that talk all shifted 180 degrees (no pun intended ) when no one paid any attention and there wasn't any money to be made off the whole prospect.

Makin it sound like something it's not... The ice age cycles do predict global cooling, but only in a couple thousand years.

As for "all the global scientists"? Um, except maybe World Meteorological Organization - which issued a warning, in 1976, that "the World's temperature likely to rise".

[master plumber mark]

:D
I'm just asking the difficult questions Peter because someone has to.

If you know how to plumb a gas water heater, how difficult can it be to fix global warming? I mean, really.

If you cut the gas, the thing cools down. It's not rocket science.

Ian...this is really all just mental bs...
its actually impossible for us to do anything but hang on for the ride..........

Immagine with me if you will IAN..and Peter......
all of humanity is nothing more than a bunch of microbes that live on the very edje of a dogs rectum........:eek:
Everyone is trying to figure out some way how to keep this thing we live on from rumbling exploding some day.....

the greatest scientists we have already know that their is something going on but they cannot seem to grasp that we are like a huge rash on that dogs behind....

Actually, we are so very small that we cannot even think of ourselves as the tail trying to wag the dog......we are only microbes.....cosmically speaking.

So when the dog finally has had enough and starts to rub his behind across the carpet.....

that is when we are in for trouble....:D
------------------------------------------------------

IAN...
did you ever read the hitch-hikers guide to the universe??


.

[Ian Gills]

Ian...this is really all just mental bs...
its actually impossible for us to do anything but hang on for the ride..........

Immagine with me if you will IAN..and Peter......
all of humanity is nothing more than a bunch of microbes that live on the very edje of a dogs rectum........
Everyone is trying to figure out some way how to keep this thing we live on from rumbling exploding some day.....

the greatest scientists we have already know that their is something going on but they cannot seem to grasp that we are like a huge rash on that dogs behind....

Actually, we are so very small that we cannot even think of ourselves as the tail trying to wag the dog......we are only microbes.....cosmically speaking.

So when the dog finally has had enough and starts to rub his behind across the carpet.....

that is when we are in for trouble....
------------------------------------------------------

IAN...
did you ever read the hitch-hikers guide to the universe??


Yes I did read it Mark and I like it very much. If you can put a man on the moon, then you can limit global warming (I agree we cannot stop it).

It will require a rise in prices and taxes, some new technology and some new American jobs but it can be done.

You almost did it with the electric car before California flip-flopped.

It is known that there are an infinite number of worlds, simply because there is an infinite amount of space for them to be in. However, not every one of them is inhabited. Therefore, there must be a finite number of inhabited worlds. Any finite number divided by infinity is as near to nothing as makes no odds, so the average population of all the planets in the Universe can be said to be zero. From this it follows that the population of the whole Universe is also zero, and that any people you may meet from time to time are merely the products of a deranged imagination...a Conservative imagination.

[frenchie]

Douglas Adams?

[Ian Gills]

Yes.

The major problem — one of the major problems, for there are several — one of the many major problems with governing people is that of whom you get to do it; or rather of who manages to get people to let them do it to them.
To summarize: it is a well known fact that those people who most want to rule people are, ipso facto, those least suited to do it. To summarize the summary: anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job. To summarize the summary of the summary: people are a problem.

[master plumber mark]

Yes I did read it Mark and I like it very much. If you can put a man on the moon, then you can limit global warming (I agree we cannot stop it).

It will require a rise in prices and taxes, some new technology and some new American jobs but it can be done.

You almost did it with the electric car before California flip-flopped.

It is known that there are an infinite number of worlds, simply because there is an infinite amount of space for them to be in. However, not every one of them is inhabited. Therefore, there must be a finite number of inhabited worlds. Any finite number divided by infinity is as near to nothing as makes no odds, so the average population of all the planets in the Universe can be said to be zero. From this it follows that the population of the whole Universe is also zero, and that any people you may meet from time to time are merely the products of a deranged imagination...a Conservative imagination.


you need to watch cosmos by Carl Sagan sometime if you have not already seen it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7n71pm0K04


trust me IAN, we are not alone....

the problem with humanity is the need to dominate one another and keep each other in
the darkness with only a select few knowing much of what is going on ,

and all of this simply for the need to make a profit...

the need to keep one 90% of humanity in debt to the other 10%, literally like parasites feeding on the misery and starvatin of the others...instead of helping the planet rise out of this endless cycle of wars, greed and poverty.....

of course what would this new world look like anyway?? Good question what utopia would be .....




if we can stay slaves to oil, the better for the oil industry....they will buy up all new technologies that ever come on the market and then KILL THEM.. so they can stay in power over everyone...

I wont even speak about what medicle advances that have probably been canned just to keep that industry going too...


heres a good example for you
the IMF and Fed reserve prints money out of thin air and then loans it to Africa and
now that Africa cannot even pay the interest back on the money they owe to someone who makes the rules and makes play money... they simply let the poor bastards starve ....

they could as easily just forgive the debt, but that is not in anyones best interests....


I am beginning to think that the only way things
will ever change for the good is with the landings of beings from another world....


but no one wants to believe that their are such
things out there...so we got to keep the status quo going....

I wonder who put that thought in all our minds???

[Cookie]

Et ? ;)

[master plumber mark]

Et ? ;)

we wait and we see....

Somenone smarter than us in the universe
is not really that much of a leap of faith... dont you think?
Considering the idiots presently in charge of running things?


Cookie... did you like the pretty lights over Norway last week???.

oh yea, I forgot,
that was a russian test missle that went out of control... ok.... :D:D


nevermind......

[Ian Gills]

Somenone smarter than us in the universe
is not really that much of a leap of faith... dont you think?

Unproven at the moment. But this is why the quest to find bacteria on Mars or the moon is so important.

If they find even the smallest hint of life on our nearest neighbors, then that means it is everywhere.

And that would almost certainly mean other intelligent life exists (outside of Europe anyway - I have yet to find any in America). ;)

[Cookie]

Well, well, we finally agreed on something, lol. It took awhile. Years ago, I was assigned to interview Betty Hill for a newspaper. At first I remained neutral which I had to be while writing the piece. Betty and I became friends and remained friends up until, the time of her death. I grew to love her and believe her. I have tapes of my interviews with her and from time to time I play them for people.

She had a contagious laugh and a personality I can't describe. My kids, especially my youngest loved her. Oh I could tell you stories you would love to hear.

My youngest had a science project in the 6 th grade and he had to bring in something. We brought in BETTY. LOL. He got an A+. Mom got a huge hug.

She had so many theories on jet propulsion gained in an unusual way. She always wanted to take me to what she called her "strip" the "field", I would ask jokingly what she wanted to do with me on the strip or field and we would laugh. It was a strip where UFO's would slow down and come close flashing their lights. Now, she said she had taken a male reporter once there telling him "you have to stay in the car" well, he got so excited he got out and the beings got angry flying off. I regret never visiting her vistors. But the thought of having possible experiments done on me scared me off.

I believe things happen for a reason, we meet the people we do for a reason, we are given the kids we are given for a reason, and I believe I met Betty for a reason.

I was diagnosed with Non Hodgkins Lymphoma and not far later her dear niece was diagnosed with the same. I was happy to help Betty or to comfort her or her niece. She was very close to this niece. I offered her mine but after hearing she is a felon she turned down the offer. ;)

No, I didn't see the lights anywhere except at work or that idiot light that keeps popping up on my dashboard the one I always ignore I know it doesn't mean much.

[Cass]

We are headed for a One World Government and they need something to bring all the governments together...enter Global Warming...Reguardless of our carbon out put there is no provable science showing the warming cycle is man made and not just a normal cycle...common sense is not science...is not provable and there is no way to prove that if we stopped all burning of fossil fuel today that anything would change...You would have to be God to know the correct answer to those questions...

[Cookie]

It might be just a natural thing, might be happening if cars ran on pepsi and no one farted. ;) It might just be what it is. This might not be cause & effect. God is a woman.

[Cass]

Ian...humur me and tell me how global warming can be fixed and how much it will cost....how long it will take...and how we will know if what we did did anything...

[Ian Gills]

The economists can work all that out Cass.

And I am an economist, but I just don't have the time to do it at the moment.

We know CO2 causes global warming and we know emissions have gone up.

Warming caused by these will have economic and human costs and reducing CO2 emissions will also have costs.

So we need to balance the marginal benefits (less economic and human costs) of dealing with climate change with the marginal costs of doing something about it (reducing emissions). Note that this does not mean ZERO emissions. That would be catastrophic. But it does not mean business as usual either. An optimal balance must be found.

One way to deal with it would be to introduce taxes (poor Conservative "victims") to include the cost of emmissions and the damage they do in the price we pay for our goods and services, especially gas.

Which would lead to less consumption of goods that are bad for the environment but also lead to the development of new technologies and jobs to get round paying these taxes associated with climate change.

The problems only come if we do not adequately capture the distortions correctly e.g. taxing cut flowers from Kenya because they came by plane but ignoring the fact that US cut flowers use more carbon-intensive farming techniques (e.g. fertilisers) would be one such problem, because we might end up buying US flowers which are more damaging to the environment than Kenyan ones. There might also be distributional impacts if poor people disproportionately produce or consume high CO2 products, but any civil country could provide social safety nets to compensate adversely affected groups.

It's really no different to a Christian State taxing the sale of alcohol and tobacco. Things that have hidden costs (even morally if you believe there is a God) have to be regulated.

Which reminds me. We need to get rid of America's pesky State Governments. Washington rule for all! DC is the best. I should know because I live here and the Feds are a great bunch of guys.


We are headed for a One World Government and they need something to bring all the governments together...enter Global Warming...

[Cass]

Sorry but taxing things will not change anything as far as GW goes....it will just make people poorer...and gives the elite more power over them (the poor) and makes the bankers and elite who own the company's that will handle the $$$ transfers more rich...Al Gore stands to get 100s of Millions of $$$ because of the company he owns if cap and trade goes through...it also makes it harder for them (the poor)to get ahead...

There is no way of even knowing if doing anything will help...

It is not monetarily feasible at this time with our current technology...

Check the cost of electricity generated by wind mills, solar pannels, etc. when taking their cost and up keep divided by the amount of electricity generated...and they can't just go any where...now if your talking Nuclear Energy I am all for it...

[Cass]

We know CO2 causes global warming and we know emissions have gone up.




NO...You just are convinced it is because enough people said so...with no scientific proof...that it is not just normal climate change...


Common Sense...It's not Science....and not provable...

[Cookie]

Do you like my reindeer dog? He is very scientific. He thinks he is a buck.

[Ian Gills]

now if your talking Nuclear Energy I am all for it...

Of course I am for nuclear energy and electric cars and everything. It's the best way. No emissions and adequate generating capacity.


NO...You just are convinced it is because enough people said so...with no scientific proof...that it is not just normal climate change...
I'm sorry but it is clearly Amercians and their cars and both the Americans and Chinese and their coal power stations. CO2 has been shown conclusively to raise global temperatures and we are pumping more of it into the atmosphere than ever.

Conservative "victims" who don't want to pay taxes and "big oil companies" and their political supporters are just trying to cover up the facts.

[Cookie]

...and the dog? ;)
would you rather see my cat dressed up as an elf? " I get no respect."

[Ian Gills]

I think they are very much in the spirit of the season Cookie.

Neither look especially happy with their attire though. The dog is down-right embarassed!

[Cass]

Of course I am for nuclear energy and electric cars and everything. It's the best way. No emissions and adequate generating capacity.


I'm sorry but it is clearly Amercians and their cars and both the Americans and Chinese and their coal power stations. CO2 has been shown conclusively to raise global temperatures and we are pumping more of it into the atmosphere than ever.

Conservative "victims" who don't want to pay taxes and "big oil companies" and their political supporters are just trying to cover up the facts.

Show me the Scientific facts, that are covered up, that prove it is from them...if it is as factual as you say it is it can't be that hard show me...

Maybe you should stop breathing...you are contributing greatly to it...;)

[Cookie]

That is a good thing then that he aint my dog! lol. I found him on the net and loved the picture. :)

[frenchie]

Breathing, like wood burning, is carbon-neutral.

[Ian Gills]

The Earth was formed about 4,540,000,000 years ago.

In the beginning, the Earth's atmosphere contained very little oxygen (less than 1% oxygen pressure).

Early plants started to develop more than 2 billion years ago, probably about 2,700,000,000.

Through photosynthesis, plants uptake carbon dioxide into the biosphere as organic matter, and release oxygen as a byproduct.

Through geologic time, oxygen accumulated gradually in the atmosphere, reaching a value of about 21% of atmospheric gases at the present time.

Through geologic time, surplus organic matter has been sequestered in the lithosphere as fossil organic materials (coal, petroleum, and natural gas).

Early animals (the first organisms with external shells) started to develop around 600,000,000 years ago.

Animals operate in the opposite way than plants: they take up oxygen, burn organic matter (food), and release carbon dioxide as a byproduct.

Early humans (Australopithecus anamensis) began to develop about 4,100,000 years ago.

Cool climatic conditions have prevailed during the past 1,000,000 years. The species Homo sapiens evolved under these climatic conditions.

Homo sapiens dates back to more than 400,000 years.

Estimates for the variety Homo sapiens sapiens, to which all humans belong, range from 130,000 to 195,000 years old.

The concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere was as low as 190 ppm during the last Ice Age, about 21,000 years ago.

The last Ice Age began to recede about 20,000 years ago.

The agricultural revolution, where humans converted forests and rangelands into farms, began to develop about 10,000 years ago.

The agricultural revolution caused a reduction in standing biomass in the biosphere and reduced the uptake of carbon dioxide in midlatitudinal regions, indirectly contributing, however so slightly, to global warming.

The concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere increased gradually from a low of 190 ppm 21,000 year ago, to about 290 ppm in the year 1900, i.e., at an average rate of 0.00478 ppm per year.

The industrial revolution, where humans developed machines (artificial animals, since they consume fuels, which are mostly organic matter), began in England about 240 years ago (1767).


In October 1999, the world's population reached 6,000,000,000, which is double that of the year 1959 (the doubling occurred in 40 years).


The world's population is currently increasing at the rate of about 80,000,000 per year (about 1.2 %).

The current world population is 6,781,000,000 (September 1, 2009).

The global fleet of motor vehicles is estimated at 830,000,000 (2006).


The global fleet of motor vehicles has been recently growing at the rate of 16,000,000 per year.

Motor vehicles (cars, trucks, buses, and scooters) account for 80% of all transport-related energy use.

The concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, which was at 290 ppm in the year 1900, rose to 316 ppm in 1959, or at an average 0.44 ppm per year.

Measurements of the concentration of carbon dioxide since 1959 (316 ppm) have revealed an increase to 387 ppm in 2009, or at an average 1.42 ppm per year.


The concentration of carbon dioxide has increased an average of about 1.8 ppm per year over the past two decades.

The concentration of carbon dioxide increased 2.87 ppm in 1997-98, more than in any other year of record.

The year 1998 was the warmest of record. The year 2002 was the second warmest (to that date). The year 2003 was the third warmest (to that date). The year 2004 was the fourth warmest (to that date). The year 2005 equaled 1998 as the warmest of record. The year 2007 equaled 1998 as the second warmest of record. The ten warmest years have occurred in the twelve-year period 1997-2008.

About 75% of the annual increase in atmospheric carbon dioxide is due to the burning of fossil fuels.

The remaining 25% is attributed to anthropogenic changes in land use, which have the effect of reducing the net uptake of carbon dioxide.

Anthropogenic changes in land use occur when forests are converted to rangelands, rangelands to agriculture, and agriculture to urban areas.

Other patterns of land degradation--deforestation, overgrazing, overcultivation, desertification, and salinization--reduce the net uptake of carbon dioxide, indirectly contributing, however slightly, to global warming.

[Scuba_Dave]

Cliff Notes version ?

[frenchie]

Cliff Notes version ?

Just Ian stirring the pot. Started off complaining about prices, but that didn't work. So he brought up cap & trade.

Sprinkle liberally with UFO's, aliens, and a (strangely enough, unrelated) excerpt from Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

And of course, we should get rid of the States and just let the Feds run everything.

You know... the usual.

[Ian Gills]

It's important we deal with these issues here so that plumbers are educated on the facts when i) they interact with clients; and, ii) interact with themselves.

I dream of the day a plumber in Florida visits a client and they start chatting about how much of a wonderful job the Federal Government is doing.

Rather than just complaining about it.

[frenchie]

See what I mean?

[FloridaOrange]

excerpt from Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy.



So long and thanks for all the fish.


I love that book and suprisingly the movie was at least entertaining.

[master plumber mark]

so long and thanks for all the fish....

that is about how I feel sometimes..

no intellegent life here



debate the obvious, stall, stonewall,

do more studies .......whatever it takes ........


I got the DVD of that movie and I thought it was better
than the book....http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:FfMKHkOGSuYXjM:http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa183/OnlineStrife/hitchhikers_guide_to_galaxy_2005_te.jpg (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa183/OnlineStrife/hitchhikers_guide_to_galaxy_2005_te.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.imvu.com/groups/group/Hitchhikers%252Bof%252Bthe%252BGalaxy/&usg=__kfunIYX_ihHQCiU6fi_v3yO5JKA=&h=1024&w=773&sz=81&hl=en&start=13&um=1&tbnid=FfMKHkOGSuYXjM:&tbnh=150&tbnw=113&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dhitchhiker%2527s%2Bguide%2Bto%2Bthe%2 Bgalaxy%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1R2ADSA_enUS345%26sa%3DN %26um%3D1)

[Scuba_Dave]

We send Ian home & after a very short stay he will love the USA
Had some friends move back to merry Old England after spending decades in the US
Raised 4 kids...went home to retire
They were barely there & started making plans to come back :D

The King is a fink

[frenchie]

I never saw the movie - grew up with a local college radio station replaying the original radio show. Own all five books in the trilogy...

Changing to one of the other topics - just came across this:

http://zs1.smbc-comics.com/comics/20081026.gif

Made me think of this thread.

[Cookie]

One thing for sure, it sure beats fighting! ;)

[Redwood]

A little birdie told me that all the blue areas on the map at this link are in trouble when all the polar ice and glaciers melt...
Looks Like I'm okay on the high ground and As I become oceanfront property my property values should do well...
Sounds good to me...:D

http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/imagegallery/image_feature_1545.html

By the way it looks like London is joining Atlantis...:eek:

[Cass]

Well I'm not sure where you came up with all that info but now you need to show how it was scientifically proved and scientificaly show that nothing else could have possibly caused it...

that is if you don't just want all that info to be just an opinion...

I am sure you are well aware opinions are meaningless...even if millions or billions of people have the same one...

It was inaccurate "opinions" that had Millions of the "experts" that thought the world was flat...or thought "blood letting" was the way to go...Etc., Etc.....

True science proved them to be wrong...

So lets see the science behind the opinion....the onus is on you...

BTW...the temp is changing on many of the other planets by the same amount the earth seems to be also so you need to show that the earths temp is not changing from the same thing that is causing them to change...you could start with that one...

OR

You could start with this one to see it it could/might be causing Climate Change...

http://www.appinsys.com/GlobalWarming/EarthMagneticField.htm

http://www.earths-magnetic-field-and-how-it-reverses-and-more.com/

I don't think you are one of the kind of people who think "we just need to do something" even if you dont know if that "something" will do anything...

[wmills]

[QUOTE=Ian Gills;238997.

I dream of the day a plumber in Florida visits a client and they start chatting about how much of a wonderful job the Federal Government is doing..[/QUOTE]

Never gonna happen because it never will happen.

[master plumber mark]

IAN...

I am beginning to understand the problem you are having
with Americans, if it dont affect me, then its not a problem....



It makes me wonder sometimes when half the herd of cows get
shipped off to the slaughter house to become hamburger.........
what do they talk about on the long ride??

and I wonder what the other half that is left behind think??
glad it wasnt me??

alien abduction???





http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/GDF/GSHW13~Herd-Of-Brown-Black-Cows-Posters.jpg

[Cass]

Their opinions as to where they are going...of course...but

since none of them have ever been there before they are

always wrong....:p

[master plumber mark]

Their opinions as to where they are going...of course...but

since none of them have ever been there before they are

always wrong....:p


they do taset good , dont they???

makes you wonder if the ones that are left behind justify the sudden disaperance
of their freinds to another bunch of aliens wanting to do experiments on them???


hmmmmmmm......

moooooo.....

[frenchie]

Time for Pastor Niemöller to make an appearance, huh?



- First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out; because I was not a Socialist.
- Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out; because I was not a Trade Unionist.
- Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out; because I was not a Jew.
- Then they came for me; and there was no one left to speak for me.