Rough in done...opinions

Just so you understand that everything with an electrical gray 90 bend is nothing more than a chase pipe for a pex to be pushed through at a later time. I know that they are not necessary but I wanted them for that " what if " someday it needed to be replaced. The plumber said no extra cost so I had it done. This first picture is so that you can see the kitchen sink drain pipe (bottom right-hand corner) and supply line chase pipes. He said that he could install some kind of vent for the sink later.

This next picture is showing the master bathroom and utility room. Starting from left to right. The far left small pipe will be hooked to a hot water heater drain pan and its hard to see in the picture but it goes down and goes into a larger pipe that goes into the utility floor drain. Speaking of which I should mention that the utility floor drain is a separate 2 " pipe exiting the house.
Next is the four supply line chase pipes. Next is master sink/vent. Next is utility sink and possibly vent too. Next toilet, and far right is shower/tub drain with vent piped up. Drain is just under concrete cinder block.

This last picture is of the guest bathroom. Far left is shower/tub drain under concrete cinder block. Next is vent. Next is toilet. Then sink and supply line chase pipes.

Dwv

1. I do not think I have EVER seen so many sanitary tees in an underground layout. One reason being that they are NOT permitted where he uses them.
2. The heater pan should NOT be connected directly to the sanitary system, regardless of where it terminates.
3. That running trap on the floor drain can cause immense problems some day.
4. From here the tub drain to the vent looks like it is going down hill.
5. The plumber gets a grade of D-.
6. NOTHING is free, so if the sleeve pipes did not cost extra, you would have paid for them without getting them if he did not install them.

hj said:

1. I do not think I have EVER seen so many sanitary tees in an underground layout. One reason being that they are NOT permitted where he uses them. But please tell me will this still work just fine ?
2. The heater pan should NOT be connected directly to the sanitary system, regardless of where it terminates. No sir it is not. The heater pan is as I said earlier and is connected to the floor drain which is not connected to the septic.
3. That running trap on the floor drain can cause immense problems some day. This is the trap that is not connected to the septic and rather to the heater pan and utility floor drain if that matters.
4. From here the tub drain to the vent looks like it is going down hill. It is not as I checked the fall on all the pipes
5. The plumber gets a grade of D-.
6. NOTHING is free, so if the sleeve pipes did not cost extra, you would have paid for them without getting them if he did not install them.

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Thanks for your help

hj is not known for his bedside manner. He IS, however, known for 50 YEARS experience in this industry.

1. There is a reason those sanitary tees are not permitted: NO, IT WILL NOT WORK FINE. You will have problems.

2. Doesn't matter where that floor drain et al are going to , the running trap will be trouble.

3. I have trouble understanding exactly where all the vents are. We will probably here more comments on that.

4. Having never done it personally, I would like to hear some input on just how easy it will be to pull PEX through those pipes.

jimbo said:

hj is not known for his bedside manner. He IS, however, known for 50 YEARS experience in this industry.

1. There is a reason those sanitary tees are not permitted: NO, IT WILL NOT WORK FINE. You will have problems. Please tell me why I will have problems or tell me what needed to be used.
2. Doesn't matter where that floor drain et al are going to , the running trap will be trouble. Again please tell me why or what needed to be done correctly.
3. I have trouble understanding exactly where all the vents are. We will probably here more comments on that. I will try and see if I can modify the picture with arrows or red "x"s but I tried to explain the order in where they are located in my original description.
4. Having never done it personally, I would like to hear some input on just how easy it will be to pull PEX through those pipes. I can tell you that I tried pushing 1/2" pex through a 1" pipe 90 degree and it can be done but its very tight. Pushing a single 1/2" through the 1-1/2" in the picture is not a problem at all.

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Thanks for your help.

The guy who installed this is a licensed plumber?

Is there any grade on the pipes?
It looks flat, and some sections are running uphill.

In 20 feet, you should be dropping 5"

Where will the end of line cleanout be on the 3"?

Why didn't the plumber use wyes?
Santees don't work there.

Ummmm rip it out and start over????

dlarrivee said:

The guy who installed this is a licensed plumber?

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Well I cant honestly say he is. I didnt ask him for his license but I should have. He was very well spoken for from several other different references and different plumbers. I guess that doesnt mean a hill of beans now.

Doherty Plumbing said:

Ummmm rip it out and start over????

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Well Im going to have to call him and see what he says because I thought it looked good to me and he has been paid. I was just talking to the wife about all the comments here and I was telling her that I should have used the guy that came over here and has done commercial applications (theater, bowling alley etc...) in the nearby town and said he was licensed and insured. He had long hair and many tattoos but I liked his "no bullshit" approach to doing the job. I also liked him because he reminded me of Ted Nugent. My wife had a funny feeling about him but now I wish we would have used him. We will see. Maybe this plumber will make things right if he knows how

Mudball said:

Well Im going to have to call him and see what he says because I thought it looked good to me and he has been paid. I was just talking to the wife about all the comments here and I was telling her that I should have used the guy that came over here and has done commercial applications (theater, bowling alley etc...) in the nearby town and said he was licensed and insured. He had long hair and many tattoos but I liked his "no bullshit" approach to doing the job. I also liked him because he reminded me of Ted Nugent. My wife had a funny feeling about him but now I wish we would have used him. We will see. Maybe this plumber will make things right if he knows how

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Good luck to you! I hope it all works out well because that job there is a hack job....

It sucks that you have already paid. You should never pay until a job passes inspection (You did pull a permit right?). And if that passed inspection I'd be phoning up the city and having a few words with them that's for sure.

Terry said:

Is there any grade on the pipes? Yes the grade is fine. I laid a level on most all the pipe and every time the line on the level split the bubble 1/4.
It looks flat, and some sections are running uphill. No
In 20 feet, you should be dropping 5"

Where will the end of line cleanout be on the 3"? Just outside the house about 5' from the edge of the concrete. Also there will be a cleanout in the end of the utility room run.
Why didn't the plumber use wyes? Santees don't work there.I really dont know. I looked them up and compared them to the sanitary tee and they look close to the same. I was telling my wife that I would be willing to bet that the Wye is better for directing the down flow in a certain direction vs the Tee which will cause splash back...is that right ? Either way if its true that we will have problems then I want it fixed right. Please tell me what problems we will encounter..

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Thanks for the help

Doherty Plumbing said:

Good luck to you! I hope it all works out well because that job there is a hack job....

It sucks that you have already paid. You should never pay until a job passes inspection (You did pull a permit right?). And if that passed inspection I'd be phoning up the city and having a few words with them that's for sure.

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We live in "no mans land" unfortunately. I was just talking to the wife (again) about calling the plumber tomorrow that did this job and asking him if the plumbing inspector from a neighboring county came to inspect it. The neighboring county Im referring to is the same county the plumber resides in. I know its sad but they are just now starting to enforce and regulate some plumbing and other building codes here in the county we live in.

It's pretty sad when the plumber doesn't know the difference between a combo and a santee.
And where they can be used.

Mudball said:

We live in "no mans land" unfortunately. I was just talking to the wife (again) about calling the plumber tomorrow that did this job and asking him if the plumbing inspector from a neighboring county came to inspect it. The neighboring county Im referring to is the same county the plumber resides in. I know its sad but they are just now starting to enforce and regulate some plumbing and other building codes here in the county we live in.

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Yeah that sucks! We have areas around here that don't require permits either (like native land, farms, some of the regional district). But that doesn't mean the plumber still shouldn't do it to code.

And if all that piping is laid to grade then the picture is VERY deceiving. Everything looks flat and whatever it is in the top right of the 2nd picture looks to be back graded....

Again sorry for your situation but just don't go and put a floor over top of that mess.

Doherty Plumbing said:

Yeah that sucks! We have areas around here that don't require permits either (like native land, farms, some of the regional district). But that doesn't mean the plumber still shouldn't do it to code. You are exactly right.
And if all that piping is laid to grade then the picture is VERY deceiving. Everything looks flat and whatever it is in the top right of the 2nd picture looks to be back graded.... I guarantee you the grade and fall is ok. Yes the picture makes it look differently.Again sorry for your situation but just don't go and put a floor over top of that mess. I hope to get this right before the concrete is poured

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Thanks for the help

We decided to make some phone calls Monday and see if there is someone in our county or the neighboring county that will come and inspect this job. I am curious though why no one hasnt told me why this system wont work and why we will have trouble with it.

Well, for the most part, codes are not written just to piss you off. There are reasons why things don't work. Find out what the invert of a fitting means, and you will understand why a sanitary tee on its back will cause problems. Study some plumbing books and basic physics of water flow to understand why running traps are trouble.


Will it WORK? Well, yes. Will it work FINE??? NO. You have many potential trouble spots, leading to future clogs, slow draining, etc.

A 3" pipe requires 2½" drop in ten feet. Do your pipes have that slope? Can't see it in the pics.

jimbo said:

Well, for the most part, codes are not written just to piss you off. Tell me one time when I said they did or did you mean that in general ? If so then say that please. Codes are the exact reason that Im hear on this site. There are reasons why things don't work. Thats exactly what Im trying to get explained to me. If its too complicated to explain then I dont have a problem with that. Find out what the invert of a fitting means, and you will understand why a sanitary tee on its back will cause problems. Study some plumbing books and basic physics of water flow to understand why running traps are trouble. This is what I thought I paid someone to do.

Will it WORK? Well, yes. Will it work FINE??? NO. You have many potential trouble spots, leading to future clogs, slow draining, etc.

A 3" pipe requires 2½" drop in ten feet. Do your pipes have that slope? Can't see it in the pics. Im going to walk back and take more pictures but I did measure the longest run and its very close to 40 feet long and the drop is close to 12" total

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Thanks for the help

Mudball said:

We decided to make some phone calls Monday and see if there is someone in our county or the neighboring county that will come and inspect this job. I am curious though why no one hasnt told me why this system wont work and why we will have trouble with it.

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Ok lets see....

The san-t's on their backs will give you issue with venting and drainage especially when more then one fixtures drains at the same time. The tees will also cause water to back up upstream of the tee possibly leaving solids behind causing clogs.

The lack of grade by the looks of piping needs no explanation.

The running trap will have a tendency to siphon it's self dry, or run through the trap, do to the velocity of the water going through it on a horizontal run like that (IE running trap).

The fixture drain that looks back graded is obviously a problem.

The 90s used in the ground work will give you headaches a few years down the road. And then when you have a clogged drain you're gonna be wondering why it took the plumber longer then you thought it would have because he had to fight his way through 90 in the ground.

Basically everything about that installation is going to give you problems down the road.

When you call the "plumber" who installed this ask him if he knows what a running trap is and then if he does ask him to explain what it is to you. If his explanation is anything but a description of the running trap he's installed for you you'll know he's stupid. And if he explains it just as he installed it you'll know he's just incompetent.

I know you've paid this guy and hopefully he'll fix his job up but by the looks of it he has no clue what he's doing and you're probably not going to have the problem solved enough to give you long term trouble free drainage.

I'd ask for a refund (or atleast a partial refund) and then I'd hire someone else.