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Terry
11-26-2009, 12:18 PM
Installing or setting a Kohler Villager Cast Iron Tub.
The Villager weighs in at 316 pounds.
It's best to bring it in with two men.
Four men would be okay too.
Once it's in the bathroom, I can set it into the alcove by myself without help.

I use a ledger board on the back wall, making sure it's level first.

Leave the tub in the crate, it stacks easier that way, and gives you some nice hand holds.
I like to center the tub at the hips, and lean it on my back. Then I have a guy or two hold the back of the crate and follow behind me.
I carry it like I'm giving someone a piggy back ride.

When I get it into the bathroom, I set it in vertically with the drain side down, with the open part of the bathing well towards the tub valve.

http://www.terrylove.com/images/tub_install_1.jpg

I make sure I have two 2x4's with me.
One, I place on the floor, this prevents the tub from falling all the way down, and can act like a pivot with the second 2x4
The 2x4 on the floor doesn't have to be real long.

http://www.terrylove.com/images/tub_install_2.jpg
After I pull the crate off, I can start letting the tub drop back against the back wall. With the crate off, it will pull toward the back wall, and catch on the studs.
To get past the stud, I have to pull the tub toward me, and slid it by.

http://www.terrylove.com/images/tub_install_4.jpg

Almost there.
http://www.terrylove.com/images/tub_install_5.jpg

Terry
11-26-2009, 12:22 PM
http://www.terrylove.com/images/tub_install_5.jpg

At this point, the tub has dropped down to the floor level.
I leave a bit of drywall out on the room side of the tub on the end away from the drain.
The apron will fall into that space.
I leave a 2x4 on the floor to prevent the tub from dropping too far.
If I need to lift the drain side of the tub up, I can use a second 2x4 and lever it up, using the 2x4 on the floor as a pivot.
This way, I'm pushing down, and not lifting up.
At the last bit, I pull the last 2x4 from below the tub.

If the tub needs sliding in, I can sit on the floor, and use my legs to push it in.

If the tub is in the room, I can set it by myself.

hj
11-27-2009, 06:28 AM
WAAAAAAY too difficult. You are a glutton for punishment and a candidate for a bad back. It is also usually not possible to remove the drywall from the opposite side for a remodel/replacement installation. I use the "Egyptian pyramid" method, which employs as little effort as possible along with the maximum use of leverage.

ON some tubs a 2x4 ledger is too thick and it hits the radius of the tub. For those, or if you are not sure, use a 1x4. As for getting it into the space. Lay the tub on the floor with the apron on the bottom. Get it into the approximate position. Remove the front, top, and back of the crate. Place "something" on the floor, (cardboard, or 1x2 strips, or anything similar to protect the tub edge), and slide the tub off the crate onto it.Then, depending on how large the recess is, either roll the tub down and onto the ledger, or angle it in between the studs on one end, then turn the tub parallel to the back wall and roll it down into position. When the tub drain is installed depends on your space. If you have access after the tub is in position, put it together last. Otherwise, assemble it on the tub, remove the assembly and put it into position while connecting it to the drain, then put the tub in place over it.

DanMcD
11-28-2009, 08:49 AM
It is very hard for a novice like me to visualize the steps of this "Egyptian pyramid" method. I guess I'm a picture guy.

Terry
11-28-2009, 08:59 AM
"Egyptian pyramid" method


Now I know that hj has been plumbing longer then me, and is very wise and cabable.

But wait! Did he also work on the pyramids?
I need to make him an avatar with a pyramid now.

I'm sure that hj knows what he is doing.
I would love to see him install one, old guys do it better.

The way I do it, was from an old guy, but there are always many ways to do things.

Now if we can only talk hj into posting some pictures.

Some of the earliest history of the Pyramid comes from a Greek traveler named Herodotus of Halicanassus. He visited Egypt around 450 BC and included a description of the Great Pyramid in a history book he wrote. Herodotus was told by his Egyptian guides that it took twenty-years for a force of 100,000 oppressed slaves to build the pyramid. Stones were lifted into position by the use of immense machines. The purpose of the structure, according to Herodotus's sources, was as a tomb for the Pharaoh Khufu (whom the Greeks referred to as Cheops).

hj
11-28-2009, 12:25 PM
Actually, it is almost easier to do it than to describe HOW to do it. IF the tub is going into a recess with a knee wall or other way that the tub can fit in front of the opening, then you START with the tub in the location of Terry's second posting, (otherwise you get the tub as close to the final location as possible, usually at an angle), but with the tub laying on the apron in the crate. You remove the crate except for the bottom piece the tub is on. Then you slide the tub out of the crate onto a couple of boards, 2x4's are best because they are the same thickness as the bottom plate of the wall. Then you toss the last piece of the crate away to get rid of it. If the tub is on an angle, you slide it forward so the upper edge goes into the space between studs. Then you rotate it square with the back wall. At this time your tub is at the recess, between the two walls. Then you gradually rotate it downward onto the ledger board. If you have it is the right position to start with the tub will hit the rear studs before reaching the ledger. Then you can let go of it and get your hands out of the way. The tub will continue down by itself, or you can push it if necessary. Now all you have to do is jack the front up a bit and remove the two boards. With a two wheel hand cart to move the tub into the room it is a one man job. In fact two men might get in each other's way.

Andrew21
11-28-2009, 10:31 PM
WOW, this is very helpful.

I just got my grandmothers house and will need to replace the tub. I'm thinking if I can go with the cast iron or the steel tub. I'd rather the cast iron though. I do have a problem. Where the tub sits if you look down the bathroom, its in a recess on the right hand side. Not a problem but right next to it is a radiator. Its one of those where you have to pull the front of it off to access anything inside of it. Well the radiator is in the way. Anyway I can remove it temporary and put the tub in..or will I have to do it your way but sideways?

I'll take a picture to show everyone. Easier to explain.

hj
11-29-2009, 07:51 AM
A picture would help because how you can install the tub depends on exactly where the radiator is and how far it projects into the room. Normally it would not be a problem.

Andrew21
11-30-2009, 09:04 PM
Here you go. Just a reminder, this is my parents home. The house I inherited from grandma is exactly the same. Same builder back in the day. Only difference is that there is tile in her bath instead of carpet.

http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r130/Ingman21/IMG_3074Medium.jpg

hj
12-01-2009, 05:45 AM
The heater does not cause a problem with either method of installing the tub.

Andrew21
12-01-2009, 06:29 AM
The heater does not cause a problem with either method of installing the tub.

HJ,
So here's what I'm going to do. let me know if I'm doing this wrong.

When the old tub is out and the new one goes in, we're going to do the following:

-Take the tub and lay it down sideways.
-Take the wooden crate packaging off on the sides and the top or just take everything off
-Slide the tub in on an angle and hopefully it will fit.
-Proceed with the rest of the steps to lowering the tub down (assuming the ledger board has been set. Then putting in the drain.)

Now I see a problem when trying to angle the tub in. It just barely fits. If we can't get the tub to angle in, are we going to have to lift the tub up and around the radiator. Know what I mean?

Thanks for your help

Andrew

Andrew21
12-01-2009, 03:00 PM
After thinking about this, I think that this may work. When the time comes, I'll let everyone know. Thanks again.

tbb2
02-02-2012, 08:28 AM
I have a typical 5x8 bathroom. The door opens on the narrow end and the tub is across the opposite wall.

I was thinking of replacing the tub but haven't figure how the new tub could be brought through the door and rotated 90 degrees to fit on the opposite wall.

The narrowest diagonal dimensions will be longer than the side walls by approximately 2" - so the walls obstruct the turn. (?)

- My best guess is that it rotates into the stud cavity but at 16" high it does not fit between standard stud spacing.

Also ...

How can the weight of a cast iron tub be handled so that it can be lifted and set back into the niche?

Any tips on moving a cast iron tub in close quarters?

kreemoweet
02-02-2012, 10:01 AM
You stand the tub on end and let it rotate into place. Takes 3 or 4 reasonably fit people to manhandle the thing.

hj
02-03-2012, 09:54 AM
with the radiator there, you uncrate the tub then angle it into the alcove with the left edge between the joists. Then rotate the right side in so the tub parallels the back wall. Pull the tub forward as far as possible, the push the top away from you so it starts to settle into position. It will probably hit the rear wall before it is all the way down, so you will have to pull it forward a bit, unless the weight of the tub does it for you. After you do it for 60 years and many tubs, it will be easy for you.

tbb2
02-27-2012, 07:14 AM
I'm not sure how I got into this line of posts since I started a new thread but they seem to answer the question.

I have the impression cast iron is brittle. How brittle it is I am clueless.
I imagine the tub could get dropped a few inches in the described installations to get it to set on the rear ledger or in pulling out the installation 2x4 on the bottom. This small drop would not break it would it - or do I need to rope it or lever it down?

Has anyone done this installation on top of grouted down DITRA waterproofing and slip sheet - and not destroyed the grout and sheet?

For that matter is there a better way to water proof the floor under tiles and tub in a bathroom other than DITRA?

Terry
02-27-2012, 08:44 AM
I've never heard of anyone breaking a cast iron tub buy installing or moving them. I have removed old tubs by smashing them with a sledge hammer. I don't know why you would water proof under a cast tub. They have a drain that goes through the floor, normally I cut an 8" x 12" hole for the waste and overflow.

lifespeed
05-01-2012, 07:02 PM
I'm in the process of installing a cast iron tub with a friend. He and the plumber set it on wood shims to level it before hooking up the drain. It is on a new 3/4" plywood floor that has been reinforced to take the weight. No problem there.

My concern is that wood shims in 4 places along the edge won't support the weight long-term and will crush down, creating a crack between the tub and soon-to-be-installed tile.

What is the correct way to install the tub, or is this acceptable?

hj
05-02-2012, 06:41 AM
They should have installed a "ledger" board under the rear edge of the tub to support it. That is the ONLY support needed, and it is NECESSARY to keep the tub and tile together in case of wall movement.

jimbo
05-02-2012, 01:08 PM
Did he shim under the front apron to level that? Or under the back ledger?

lifespeed
05-02-2012, 01:18 PM
Did he shim under the front apron to level that? Or under the back ledger?

Under the front apron. I'm pretty sure he screwed a ledger into the wall, but I wasn't there so I will confirm

BillTheEngineer
05-14-2012, 12:27 PM
Read the MFG instructions for leveling, The last Kohler CI tub I did said to not shim under the front skirt or apron, voids the warranty. CI tubs are stiff but usually start at the 300 lbs mark, add 175s lb for a person and 350 lbs for the water and that is a lot to put on the skirt and/or apron. There are four feet on the bottom of the tub, and that is where the shimming should be. I use metal shims, no compression and they spread out the load better. Simpson Strong Tie has a few flat products that are galvanized and work well and are cheap and at you lumber yard or big box store. The tub generally should not rest on the front skirt, there is a good chance of chipping the porcelain. Unless you are putting in a vinyl floor the tile will will hide any gap between the floor and front skirt.

johnjh2o1
05-14-2012, 12:38 PM
Read the MFG instructions for leveling, The last Kohler CI tub I did said to not shim under the front skirt or apron, voids the warranty. CI tubs are stiff but usually start at the 300 lbs mark, add 175s lb for a person and 350 lbs for the water and that is a lot to put on the skirt and/or apron. There are four feet on the bottom of the tub, and that is where the shimming should be. I use metal shims, no compression and they spread out the load better. Simpson Strong Tie has a few flat products that are galvanized and work well and are cheap and at you lumber yard or big box store. The tub generally should not rest on the front skirt, there is a good chance of chipping the porcelain. Unless you are putting in a vinyl floor the tile will will hide any gap between the floor and front skirt.

Been setting cast iron tubs on ledger strips and there aprons for 50 years.

John

lifespeed
05-14-2012, 03:26 PM
Read the MFG instructions for leveling, The last Kohler CI tub I did said to not shim under the front skirt or apron, voids the warranty. CI tubs are stiff but usually start at the 300 lbs mark, add 175s lb for a person and 350 lbs for the water and that is a lot to put on the skirt and/or apron. There are four feet on the bottom of the tub, and that is where the shimming should be. I use metal shims, no compression and they spread out the load better. Simpson Strong Tie has a few flat products that are galvanized and work well and are cheap and at you lumber yard or big box store. The tub generally should not rest on the front skirt, there is a good chance of chipping the porcelain. Unless you are putting in a vinyl floor the tile will will hide any gap between the floor and front skirt.

I'm sure you are correct. I have called the plumber back to do the job properly before laying tile all around this beast. Unfortunately, he seemed a little unsure how to maneuver the shims into place under the Heavy Beast.

Any suggestions on the best way to get those shims into place under the tub?

lifespeed
05-14-2012, 03:28 PM
Been setting cast iron tubs on ledger strips and there aprons for 50 years.

John

This tub by Toto appears to be strong, well-designed, and does not isntall with a ledger board. Instead, the load is supported at the correct (bottom surface) location with four feet cast into the bottom of the tub.

johnjh2o1
05-14-2012, 03:52 PM
Kohler tub also had legs, but we still used a ledger strip.

John

Terry
05-14-2012, 04:23 PM
All of the older plumbers have been using the ledger for the back support on cast iron tubs.
It seems the directions to support under the legs is a CYA statement by the lawyers. They don't install tubs though.
I would love to have the people that write those things come out to a jobsite sometime. When a tub is dropped into a three wall alcove that has been drywalled in on the back side, it can get very interesting.

Also, I don't know of any tub installed the way we do, using the ledger board method that doesn't look perfect 50 years later.

johnjh2o1
05-14-2012, 05:43 PM
(All of the older plumbers have been using the ledger for the back support on cast iron tubs)
I guess I must be one of those old plumbers.

John

jch
06-18-2012, 05:25 PM
I just installed a Kohler Villager cast iron tub in my bathroom. Followed the advice here and it went smoothly.

I put a ledger on the back wall to support it at the rim and then have the front apron resting on the plywood subfloor. Because it's cast iron, the tub is not perfectly true (it's got a slight twist to the top surface. So if one end showed level the other end wouldn't.

I flipped it up on to its apron (on a moving blanket), slid it up to the alcove, then rolled it down onto its feet and the ledger board.

The main thing is that if you stand on the rails and move around that the tub doesn't budge. Otherwise you'll get leaks at the drain over time -- at least that's what my plumber told me :-)

Hope this helps,

hj
06-19-2012, 07:08 AM
Two items regarding replacing a cast iron tub.
1. If you remove it without busting it into pieces, then you know EXACTLY how to install the new one by just doing the opposite steps.
2. I have not had assistance in moving or installing cast iron tubs for "decades". IF it is done "smart" instead of "brute force" two men are usually not necessary unless it is for a second floor.

Why did I try this?
08-31-2012, 09:52 AM
Hi,
This thread has been very helpful. I am in the process of removing a "harvest gold?" cast tub and was thinking of putting in a Kohler Villager since it looks exactly the same, except being white. Does it matter that the diagonal of the tub is longer than the room, or does it not since the tub is open underneath? Any thoughts on how I might remove mine? I was thinking of taking the panel off of an adjacent closet, tipping the tub on the side and sliding it out through the closet ;*) If I could spin it on the it's side in the bath I would. The skirt has a copper/fin heat pipe running through it!

Thanks1717817179

jch
08-31-2012, 11:50 AM
That gold tub is definitely a Kohler Villager -- can't miss that Nike swoosh on the apron...

The complicating factor here is that finned copper radiator pipe buried inside the apron--a clever way of hiding the radiator in the room.

I'd say that the first thing you need to do is remove the finned copper piping. Are there removable fittings where the pipes meet the floor/walls? Or did they solder it in?

If you can't get at those fittings (or if they don't exist), then I'd say you have no option other than to continue breaking the tub into pieces. Then (at least temporarily) remove the radiator pipes before you put a new tub in. The toilet is going to have to come out, and it would probably make it easier (more room to maneuver) if the vanity came out too.

Why did I try this?
08-31-2012, 01:29 PM
I could have an hvac guy cut & splice the pipe in the basement but that would probably be too $$$. I have guys quoting $200-$350(in labor) just to swap out water heaters!!!???
Anyway... If I were somehow to get this tub out, could another Villager be installed by tipping it over from the skirt over the pipe? Or would Terry's method be the best? The pipe actually comes up through the floor 1-2 inches inside the skirt from the end and does the same from the drain side.

jch
08-31-2012, 01:56 PM
Based on how tightly-fitted those radiator fins look inside the tub apron, I don't think you'd stand much chance getting a new tub over top of it unless you dropped the tub straight down on it. And I can't imagine doing that with a cast iron tub.

Perhaps you could install the copper unions on the radiator pipes below floor level yourself??

Regardless, I think you need to bust up the old tub first.

Then post a picture of the finned radiator piping so we can see what you're up against.

jadnashua
08-31-2012, 02:34 PM
What temp water do they circulate through that? The tub could get hot enough to burn someone. I'm not so sure that was clever...more like irresponsible!

They make some decent looking wall panels. Some of them are designed to also hold towels...now, a nice warm towel at the end of a shower or bath is a treat. I'd look at relocating that.

Why did I try this?
08-31-2012, 03:11 PM
17181
Here is the radiator.

jch
08-31-2012, 03:15 PM
Are there unions already installed on the radiator pipes above floor level?

Why did I try this?
08-31-2012, 04:03 PM
Appears to be soldered all the way:mad: This DIY project has become a major PITA. Another rant, why don't plumbers put shutoff valves on showers? I have to shut my whole house down, and as a 1st time DIY it could take days.

johnjh2o1
08-31-2012, 04:04 PM
I don't think you can get very much heat out of that setup. Copper fin heat is based on convection. You won't get much of that from the section of copper fin. It would be like closing the damper on the baseboard.

John

jadnashua
08-31-2012, 04:08 PM
If their boiler is pumping 180-degree (or higher) water through it, the tub surface could get higher than you'd want. Most people don't sit on or in a radiator! Keep in mind that even 120-degrees can cause a second degree burn on young or older people that have thinner skin.

johnjh2o1
08-31-2012, 04:26 PM
The copper fin doesn't come in contact with the tub. It's not like a cast iron radiator were the water is running through it. There is no air circulation under the tub to produce heat. That set up wouldn't have even heated the room.

John

jadnashua
08-31-2012, 09:19 PM
Humm, a light bulb's filament doesn't touch the glass, but the glass gets plenty hot. Heat is heat...while there isn't much air in that cavity, what's there will circulate. Yes, my example isn't as extreme as the hot water in there, but even a convector that is closed up will get hot - it just won't warm the room as effectively.

It would be good to hear from the OP to see how warm in real practice the tub got. Course, if they're running something like 120-degree water through it, it's not an issue.

Why did I try this?
08-31-2012, 09:29 PM
In the winter I did notice a slight warmth to the top of the skirt at times.I never thought I would find a radiator in it:(

johnjh2o1
08-31-2012, 10:23 PM
You can't touch a light bulb that's been on but you can handle copper fin that has 160-degree water running through it.

John

Why did I try this?
09-02-2012, 11:51 AM
Ok, I'm going to take out the panel in the closet on the left hand side of the picture. The 2x3 is going to be cut and then we will drag/walk the tub out through the closet. From there we will use either a dolly or slide it on the skirt.

Ledger: this tub has no ledger and no shims and the feet rest on plywood, been here for 36 years! If I wanted a ledger would the cast tub need to be set in place and then marks put on the wall? Or would I measure based on the specs and put on a level board and set the tub in once?

Thanks much:D

jadnashua
09-02-2012, 06:56 PM
What do the installation instructions say about it? The thing sits on the feet, is pretty heavy, but a ledger can ensure it can't tip a little.

jch
09-04-2012, 10:03 AM
Kohler's installation instructions say for the tub to sit on only its 4 machined feet.

*However*, these feet are very skinny (<1/4" wide) and will sink into the floor unless placed on metal shims. Also, they are not necessarily in-plane with each other. The Kohler Villager I just installed had warped and its feet were 1/8" out-of-plane. Wobbly tub, leaky drain (eventually).

I eventually used a ledger board (despite Kohler's instructions saying not to) and am glad I did. No wobble. No sinking into the floor. Rock solid.

jch
09-04-2012, 10:07 AM
If I wanted a ledger would the cast tub need to be set in place and then marks put on the wall? Or would I measure based on the specs and put on a level board and set the tub in once?

I found it was an iterative process because the tub wasn't exactly true. Used deck screws to temporarily hold the ledger in place while I checked the tub for levelness and wobbles.

Such is the nature of cast iron manufacturing I suppose. These beasts slump slightly as they cool, making them slightly different than spec.

Why did I try this?
09-09-2012, 11:08 AM
Do the drains have to be installed prior to dropping the tub in place? I have an opening to the drain pipe from underneath but it is small and covered with a bunch of other pipes.

Thank you

fskywalker
01-21-2014, 05:22 PM
Hi, new to the forum. I want to replace the house old's (20+ years) Kohler spa bathtub with a regular Kohler Villager bathtub and have questions on the installation of the 7160 Bath Drain kit. Is there an instructional video somewhere that I can see?

Thanks,

Francisco

http://www.us.kohler.com/us/ClearFlo-1-1-2-adjustable-pop-up-drain-with-through-the-floor-installations-for-14-16-deep-baths/productDetail/Bathroom-Fittings/419723.htm

johnfrwhipple
01-22-2014, 06:30 AM
Kohler's installation instructions say for the tub to sit on only its 4 machined feet.

*However*, these feet are very skinny (<1/4" wide) and will sink into the floor unless placed on metal shims. Also, they are not necessarily in-plane with each other. The Kohler Villager I just installed had warped and its feet were 1/8" out-of-plane. Wobbly tub, leaky drain (eventually).

I eventually used a ledger board (despite Kohler's instructions saying not to) and am glad I did. No wobble. No sinking into the floor. Rock solid.

Thinking that your tub is going to be level is like expecting the floor to be level or all the walls to be square.

A perfect tub install is often the "Apperance of perfection" not perfection its self.

The last Kohler tub I installed was out over a 1/16". No way to get it perfect on all three sides so I just set it in the middle. The criss cross apple sauce marks where money. Like taking the average and setting it there.

johnfrwhipple
01-22-2014, 06:30 AM
Kohler's installation instructions say for the tub to sit on only its 4 machined feet.

*However*, these feet are very skinny (<1/4" wide) and will sink into the floor unless placed on metal shims. Also, they are not necessarily in-plane with each other. The Kohler Villager I just installed had warped and its feet were 1/8" out-of-plane. Wobbly tub, leaky drain (eventually).

I eventually used a ledger board (despite Kohler's instructions saying not to) and am glad I did. No wobble. No sinking into the floor. Rock solid.

Thinking that your tub is going to be level is like expecting the floor to be level or all the walls to be square.

A perfect tub install is often the "Apperance of perfection" not perfection its self.

The last Kohler tub I installed was out over a 1/16". No way to get it perfect on all three sides so I just set it in the middle. The criss cross apple sauce marks where money. Like taking the average and setting it there.

dhagin
01-30-2014, 10:57 PM
We set Villager and similar c.i. tubs on steel shims. The tricky bit, is getting the steel shims at the correct height. To do this, we check the feet of the tub to see where they line up and to verify if they're in-plane. Then, we use various thickness of plywood - without voids - to bring the steel to the correct height. We've tried the ledger bit, but the bottoms of the edges are often pretty rough, and removing/resetting c.i. tubs to get the ledger right is hard work and a pita. Not to mention, every time you set & reset one of these bad boys, you increase the risk of damaging something. :)

The steel shims work. Once set and wall finishes installed, these things don't move. Ever. :)