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View Full Version : DWV help me make it right! (CAD renderings included)



BeanAnimal
11-02-2009, 03:07 PM
I am in need of some advice from the regular pros. This will be a bit long, but I want to make sure the details are clear.

Background:
We are in the process of remodeling a family member's 100+ year old home. The previous owners "DIY" remodeling projects are a disaster... Extension cords inside walls, unvented add on bathrooms, unvented kitchen, cut BEAMS and joists to route ducts, drains, wall cavities as DUCTS (not returns), etc.

Anyway, we are correcting things as we go but the kitchen plumbing is next on the list. The images below show the proposed plumbing layout.

EXISTING LAYOUT:
The 4" ABS waste line branch I am going to tie into runs below the concrete floor and ties into the main soil stack and city sewer on the other side of the basement. Currently the 3rd floor apartment sink drains via a 1.5" vertical drain (vented through roof) to basement (not shown on my renderings) and ties into the END of this 4" run. The basement washer and laundry sink tie into that 1.5" apartment drain and are wet vented through the 3rd floor apartment. The END of the 4" run has a 90 bend that sends it up through the concrete floor.

The kitchen (20 feet away, along the same wall) was tied into vertical stub of the 4" branch and was vented via a STUDOR under the sink.

The kitchen plumbing has ALL been removed. The laundry plumbing WILL be removed, leaving the 3rd floor apartment kitchen sink and DW as the only fixture on that 1.5" vented drain that ties into the 4" branch.

PROPOSED NEW PLUMBING:

RED = NEW VENTS
BLUE = NEW DRAIN/WASTE
GREEN = EXISTING 4" WASTE
YELLOW = FITTINGS


I have extended a 2" ABS vent straight up-wards on the outside wall through the 2nd and 3rd floors to the roof. The location is the ONLY place it could go.

I plan on tying a 3" horizontal to the 4" vertical stub that is protruding above the basement floor with a 4x4x3 Sanitary Tee.

There will be a new 2" clothes washer standpipe on the new 3" horizontal

There will be a new 1.5" (2" if needed) laundry sink on the new 3" horizontal

There will be a new 1.5" aux sink on the new 3" horizontal (wine making room)

The new kitchen 2" drain will tie into the new 3" horizontal

The new 2" vent will tie into the kitchen sink trap AND continue down to the new 3" horizontal.


The drain and vent MUST come through the kitchen cabinet floor, there is no way to route them through the joist space into the wall cavity! I will then route the vent through the back of the cabinet into the wall and up to the roof.

http://www.reeflogix.com/images/TL/Wide-with-framing.gif
A basic overview of the proposed plumbing with the framing shown.


http://www.reeflogix.com/images/TL/tie-in.gif
The proposed Tie-in to the 4" vertical stub.


http://www.reeflogix.com/images/TL/kitchen-area-with-framing.gif
The kitchen sink are showing the framing. Vent comes through back of cabinet in two places. One to tie into sink drain and the second to extend past foundation into basement. The sink drain extends straight down.


http://www.reeflogix.com/images/TL/basement-laundry-area.gif
The proposed wine room sink area on the left and the laundry area along the back wall and right.


QUESTIONS:


Can the COMBO WYES in the basement lay on their sides as shown for the two sinks?

Is this vented properly?

Is there anything else wrong?

BeanAnimal
11-02-2009, 03:09 PM
Without the framing:

http://www.reeflogix.com/images/TL/Wide-no-framing.gif
Same basic wide view, no framing.

http://www.reeflogix.com/images/TL/kitchen-area-no-framing.gif
Same view as above withouth the framing.

Peter Griffin
11-02-2009, 05:12 PM
Neither of the drains on the bottom floor are properly vented.

You will have to check with your local inspector about the combo's Some will pass them, some not

Lakee911
11-02-2009, 05:35 PM
What did you make your drawings with? Sketchup? SolidWorks?

BeanAnimal
11-02-2009, 06:16 PM
Neither of the drains on the bottom floor are properly vented. Does each need to be explicity tied to one of the RED vent lines, regardless of its distance? Both traps are less than 5' from the vents on the 3" horizontal.


You will have to check with your local inspector about the combo's Some will pass them, some notWould rolling them 22.5 (if I have the clearance) fix the issue regardless of the jurisdiction?


Do see any other issues?

Lakeee911:
The drawings were done with AutoCad

Peter Griffin
11-02-2009, 07:22 PM
The distance is not the problem. the drain from the 2nd floor is negating the wet vent. You can not wer vent with fixtures above.

BeanAnimal
11-02-2009, 08:28 PM
Is this better?

http://www.reeflogix.com/images/TL/wide-revision-a.gif

Now all three basement fixtures are directly vented. Do you see any other problems with the proposed DWV system?

Does rolling the horizontal wye 22.5 and and using a 1/16 bend make it legal in all jurisdictions?

Peter Griffin
11-03-2009, 02:35 AM
taht pink horizontal pipe can not be horizontal until it is 6" above the flood level rim of the highest fixture served.

Can't say if rolling them 22.5 will pass or not. it won't where I live

Cass
11-03-2009, 03:04 AM
The pink pipe is "flat" vented and not allowed like peter said...it must rise strait up until it is 6" over where the highest point the sink would over flow....like if you plugged the sink and let the water run till it over flowed on to the floor...

hj
11-03-2009, 05:45 AM
That "vent" from the 4" line up to the sink is absolutely worthless. It has no function whatsoever. The connection to the sink vent cannot be done that way unless the window is high enough so the horizontal section is higher than the countertop. The new vent configuration is "odd" but okay. Combos, are ALWAYS approved except for fixture connections without secondary vents. Whether they have to be rolled upwards or not depends on what they are being used for, not just because they are there.

BeanAnimal
11-03-2009, 05:57 AM
FLAT VENTS:

The horizontal areas of the vent in the KITCHEN are only at 30" The kitchen sink is directly below a window and there is NO other place to route the plumbing. Obviously the flood rim of a kitchen sink is at around 36".

1) Does that mean I need to build a loop vent into the under sink area? What a mess that would be!

2) I can raise the Vent for the laundry sink becuase that plumbing will be inside of a framed wall.

3) The large stainless drainboard sink (wine making area) is a different story. There is simply no way to raise the vent. IT MUST run under the long stainless drainboard sink. The wall behind the sink sits UNDER a BEAM and is full of steel floor jacks. (As I mentioned, the previous owner CUT at least 1/2 way through most of the joists in the area to run the previous plumbing and ducts). We had to install a beam to keep the floor from falling.

Thoughts?

Cass
11-03-2009, 06:05 AM
The T on the green pipe needs to be changed to a Y...

BeanAnimal
11-03-2009, 06:17 AM
The T on the green pipe needs to be changed to a Y...

So the transition from the HORIZONTAL 3" to the VERTICAL 4" need to be a Wye and not a Sanitary Tee?

I thought with drains:

H to V always took a Santee
-and-
V to H always took a Wye

So this is one of "those" situations where the 3" has a secondary vent so the COMBO is approved?

BeanAnimal
11-03-2009, 07:37 AM
I think I have fixed the venting issues in the basement and worked around the beams and support columns. The "useless" vent was removed and the lower sinks vented in a more conventional manner without the use of a "flat" section below the flood rim of the sinks. The 4x4x3 Santee that connects the 3" horizontal the the 4" vertical was replaced with a 4x4x3 combo. Is this revision more acceptable?

I still have the issue of the kitchen sink vent and am just not sure how to work around the window and foundation issues.

I do appreciate all of the help, as this is a great opportunity to learn the correct way to do things.

http://www.reeflogix.com/images/TL/wide-revision-b-with-framing.gif

http://www.reeflogix.com/images/TL/wide-revision-b.gif

web_surfer
11-03-2009, 10:43 AM
In an earlier post you said used "AutoCad" program. Is this a program you have through work or is it something readily available for a reasonable cost?

Great program - wish I would have had it when laid out my new plumbing & dwv work.

Matt

BeanAnimal
11-03-2009, 02:02 PM
In an earlier post you said used "AutoCad" program. Is this a program you have through work or is it something readily available for a reasonable cost?

Great program - wish I would have had it when laid out my new plumbing & dwv work.

Matt

Autocad costs about $4,000 I have access to it by favor of a client. It takes quite a bit of time to learn how to work with it... there are easier programs, but this is what I have access to and was trained to use (years ago).

It looks like all of my help has disapeared....

Lakee911
11-03-2009, 03:05 PM
Hey are you the same BeanAnimal from ReefCentral? (Sorry...I'm not helping!)

BeanAnimal
11-03-2009, 03:09 PM
Are there any others? :)

I thought I recognized your name...

Lakee911
11-03-2009, 03:27 PM
I thought there might be ... but I guess not.

Welcome. :D

I don't get over to RC much anymore ... thinking of selling the tank. :(

hj
11-03-2009, 04:59 PM
Why are those two vents going over to the lateral line and then jumping up into it, rather than just going flat into the side of it? The vent from the downstairs may have to be rerouted to the left side of the main vent to get out from under the window. It CANNOT be run the way you show it unless the BOTTOM of the pipe is at least 36" above the floor, NOT 30". This is not negotiable. The connection to the 4" riser CAN BE, and usually is, a sanitary tee, it does not have to be a combo.

BeanAnimal
11-03-2009, 06:01 PM
Why are those two vents going over to the lateral line and then jumping up into it, rather than just going flat into the side of it? Because there is a joist in the way and not enough clearance behind that joist (the foundation wall is in the way) to fit the plumbing. I took the most direct route I could. I can drop the lateral vent down the wall to facilitate a flat connection from the two drain vents. I guess it would save 2 90 bends.



The vent from the downstairs may have to be rerouted to the left side of the main vent to get out from under the window It can't be. The cabinet to the left of the sink is a drawered unit with no clearance behind it and the only path to the basement is 6" outside the finished wall.



It CANNOT be run the way you show it unless the BOTTOM of the pipe is at least 36" above the floor, NOT 30". This is not negotiable. I am stuck between a rock and hard place here. I hate to use an AAV, but It is looking like the only reasonable alternative other than a spaghetti mess of plumbing back and forth to get the main vent to the basement and a vent or loop vent for the kitchen sink. Is a spaghetti mess preferred to an AAV?

I do appriciate the help... it is very important to me to get this as right as possible.

BeanAnimal
11-03-2009, 09:40 PM
Okay... I hope this iterative process is getting somewhere.

I have attempted to follow rules I read in another thread here. I have no choice but to go horizontal with the vent, but I can't move the drain, it MUST stay in the cabinet floor, as does the vent extension into the basement.

I have taken the vent off of the drain in a horizontal out into the stud space beside the window and tied it into the vertical vent at least 6" above the counter height. The sink is the highest fixture draining or vented.

I think I have corrected all of the errors, eve if it is somewhat odd... the odd framing in this house is hard to work around.

Top image is the revised kitchen plumbing showing framing. Bottom image is all plumbing showing foundation only.

http://www.reeflogix.com/images/TL/kitchen-revision-c.gif


http://www.reeflogix.com/images/TL/wide-revision-c.gif

Thoughts?

hj
11-04-2009, 05:07 AM
quote; Is a spaghetti mess preferred to an AAV?

Read some of the postings from people who have AAV's that do not allow the sink to drain, because there is a stoppage SOMEWHERE ELSE in the system and then decide which is best. WIthout being there we cannot tell whether it actually takes a "mess" of piping to do the job correctly. That last one is much better, as long as the connection back into the riser is at least 36" high, and preferably 42". My next revision, assuming there is enough depth, would be to lower the horizontal 4" to the point where the combo's or Y's could be facing upwards with street tees into them for the trap arms to eliminate those quirky "U" turns in the vents. There is nothing WRONG with them, they just look odd.

Cass
11-04-2009, 05:23 AM
The trap under the window...have the trap arm go into the wall and 90 left through the studs and hit the T in the wall and the vent going strait up to meet the other vent lines and the waste line going down then nothing will be flat vented...

Cass
11-04-2009, 05:47 AM
When moving out of a wall and continuing down try and use 45s if you can instead of 90s

BeanAnimal
11-04-2009, 05:52 AM
The trap under the window...have the trap arm go into the wall and 90 left through the studs and hit the T in the wall and the vent going strait up to meet the other vent lines and the waste line going down then nothing will be flat vented...

I would love to do that, but I can't bring the drain back out of the wall any further to the left. The only path to the basement is through the cabinet floor and the cabinet to the left is a drawered unit. To the right of the sink cabinet is the dishwasher. So the only way down is where it is at now :)

Cass
11-04-2009, 06:03 AM
So do it and bring the waste line back into and under the cabinet.

BeanAnimal
11-04-2009, 06:59 AM
quote; Is a spaghetti mess preferred to an AAV?

That last one is much better, as long as the connection back into the riser is at least 36" high, and preferably 42". Yes it is at least 42"


My next revision, assuming there is enough depth, would be to lower the horizontal 4" to the point where the combo's or Y's could be facing upwards with street tees into them for the trap arms to eliminate those quirky "U" turns in the vents. There is nothing WRONG with them, they just look odd. I will certainly keep that in mind and will see how much room I have to work with.

Before anybody asks...
The horizontal waste pipe can not be burried under the slab becuase the foundation is very irregular and comes out 1' or so from the wall in places. Nothing about this entire project has been easy or ideal.

BeanAnimal
11-04-2009, 07:02 AM
So do it and bring the waste line back into and under the cabinet.

I would have thought the straight drop for the waste line and a wonky vent would have been prefered to a straight vent and a wonky waste line :)

Have I mentioned the trapless unvented add-on bathroom yet? That is the next project :)

Cass
11-04-2009, 03:16 PM
You can snake a waste line but vents normaly are not easily accessable...