Tip on Wrangling Black Poly Coil [Archive] - Terry Love's Plumbing & Remodel DIY forum

rmelo99

10-02-2009, 07:16 PM

Trench is dug for my line to the garage. I went to the plumbing supply house and picked up some 1"x100' coil of Black Poly (well pipe) as the guy at the counter called it.

So I'm in the 4foot trench trying to figure out how to get this into a straight line and lay flat so that it stays at the bottom of the trench.

How do you guys do it? I was so frustrated that all the cost savings in using a plastic pipe seemed wasted! I would much have prefered to solder 10 joints than deal with this stupid pipe!

Its supposed to rain tomorrow, so I don't know what to expect as far as my trench goes.

nhmaster

10-02-2009, 07:40 PM

Another example of why we get the big bucks :D

Roll it out in the trench. Put a weight on one end and roll away......

rmelo99

10-02-2009, 07:47 PM

Another example of why we get the big bucks :D

Roll it out in the trench. Put a weight on one end and roll away......

haha...now you know why I'm the guy in the trench. I think plumbers are more expensive than doctors in my county!

Since the I have a pro on the line, I'll ask another ques.

I know this pipe transitions using barbs and stainless clamps. What and where is the preferred way to terminate at each building? Should I do a barb to MIP and then bring copper into the basement? Or bring the poly all the way in and then switch?

Sorry for being a rookie, this is my first underground job!

Gary Slusser

10-03-2009, 10:09 AM

Let the coil/roll lay in the sun for 30 minutes and then unroll it on the ground feeding it into the trench as you walk along the trench. Don't let the roll/coil spring apart or unroll.

Let it go side to side in the trench for expansion and contraction. It will flatten out eventually or when you backfill.

I would run it from/into the buildings and then transition with an insert x male or female sch 80 PVC adapter.

nhmaster

10-03-2009, 10:27 AM

Make the transition inside the foundation. If you do it outside and have a suction leak life will suck also.

Since you are doing this in the rain, I must assume the sun ain't shining.

This be the fitting you do the transition with. Make sure it's brass not plastic.

rmelo99

10-03-2009, 07:04 PM

Sun sure isn't shinning, but I'm also not out there in the rain. I was this morning but that was just a drizzle.

So I have to drill thru the basement foundation for one end of the connection @ the house, any tips on that? 100yr old fieldstone. I'm thinkin depot tool rental and hammerdrill with 1.5" core bit?

The other is coming up into the garage from below the "slab" Do I just let the pipe slope up from the 4ft depth, or what? Just thinking about the line freezing. I guess I can't visualize the transition into the space.

nhmaster

10-03-2009, 09:47 PM

Yes to both questions. Try to get an extension when you rent the tool. Old fieldstone foundations can be a couple feet thick in places.

Cass

10-04-2009, 08:09 AM

I am asking this question because of things I have run into over the years and because it isn't mentioned anywhere...

Are you on a well or city water....I know everyone here is assuming your on a well but I am not...

rmelo99

10-04-2009, 08:13 AM

I'm on city water, no well here. The main line coming in is 1 1/4", never measured the pressure, but it's very good. Never had any complaint.

Cass

10-04-2009, 08:18 AM

I am glad I asked...and you should be also...

You have the wrong pipe in the trench...you must replace it...sorry for the bad news...well pipe is for use only on wells because of the lower pressuer that wells run on...and you can't use barbed fittings either...There is a reason itis called well pipe...Barbed fittings can be used on well pipe only not on IPS or similar sized pipe and that is what you need...It should have a pressure rating of 200 PSI...

See why I asked ....

10-04-2009, 08:22 AM

You can use the pipe for ANYTHING as long it has the proper pressure rating. And if you do not use barbed fittings, how would you connect it, unless the supplier has 'compression" fittings which is not likely in a DIY situation.

rmelo99

10-04-2009, 08:23 AM

Hmm...now I'm upset. The guy @ the plumbing house knew what I was running this for.

I just checked the pipe and it is PE 3608 160PSI @76 made by Flying something. I highly doubt my pressure is anywhere near that, what other issues are there with running this?

Any other info off the pipe to make sure it's the wrong pipe, or does that tell you what I don't want to hear?

Cass

10-04-2009, 08:25 AM

Yup...you have well pipe and you can't use it...at least I wouldn't here...all the pipe I use here is rated for 200 PSI...and has standard fittings to connect on to the house plumbing...

nhmaster

10-04-2009, 08:26 AM

You may want to check with the water department first but around here all of the city water departments are doing laterals in poly well pipe now. You may not need a fitting inside because the water meter horn will probably have a compression fitting that mates to PE pipe.

rmelo99

10-04-2009, 08:30 AM

This is not a main. This is a feed to the detached garage from my house water piping.

I'll have to check with the building department tomorrow. What you guys think about the plumbing house taking this back? It wasn't much money but....

I redid the whole house in pex and have the crimp tools for pex. Is pex a suitable piping material for changing this out?

If my building department is ok with this, is there any compelling reason for me to change to something else?

Cass

10-04-2009, 08:31 AM

nhmaster

10-04-2009, 08:41 AM

Looks just like the one for copper cept it has a brass insert that goes into the pipe.

Gary Slusser

10-05-2009, 08:55 PM

rmelo99 many water companies all over the US use PE pipe for service line; and it is IPS.

I have never heard of it called well pipe before, that must be a local plumber thingy, and it is used for other applications than wells, like irrigation and to out buildings (such as your garage).

There is nothing wrong with your choice of pipe, or the 160 psi rating, and actually it is the best choice. You run one piece with only two fittings, it is inert and nothing found in water can damage it.

There is nothing wrong with insert sch 80 PVC fittings above ground.

Cass

10-06-2009, 06:00 AM

Looks just like the one for copper cept it has a brass insert that goes into the pipe.

Hmmm...never heard of brass inserts...all I have ever seen and used are stainless...

Cass

10-06-2009, 06:32 AM

A trick I learned was to thread water line through black 4" corogated drain pipe for the length of the run then drop the whole thing in the trench...there is no need for sand so all you do then is back fill...it is much faster than using sand...to help thread the water line I tape a plastic water bottle on to the end of the pipe so it will just slide through the corogations...with out the bottle the end of the pipe gets caught on them...every inspector that has seen it likes it and passes it...no problems...

rmelo99

10-06-2009, 07:13 AM

nhmaster

10-06-2009, 07:17 AM

Hmmm...never heard of brass inserts...all I have ever seen and used are stainless...

Stainless would be a very good choice also. Most of the supply houses around here carry brass and plastic. I would never ever EVER use plastic fittings for anything, above or below ground but hey, that would be "plumber" thing, not a DIY thing.

Gary Slusser

10-06-2009, 07:30 AM

Well, building department says what I have is OK. WHEW!

I had another thread going about "sleeving" my runs and i felt the overall response was not to waste my time. The line is in the trench w/o any sleeving.

I was told I didn't need sand, just rock free. Turns out at that depth around me the dirt is sand like and rock free. I'm back filling over the pipe by shovel, the rest of the trench will get closed up with the heavy machinery.
You're doing fine. PE pipe is meant to be direct buried and has been used that way for many decades, since the 1960s actually, just keep it off sharp rock and them off it.

There is no sense in using brass or more expensive SS fittings; sch 80 PVC is way more than good enough for above ground applications. And don't over heat the pipe to insert the fittings, wait until the pipe has cooled and then don't over tighten the the hose clamps.

nhmaster

10-06-2009, 07:37 AM

You are probably right. The $ 5.00 savings on the plastic fitting should make a huge difference. Although.... with the brass or ss fitting you never have to worry about the threads stripping out, or the fitting crushing, or the fitting breaking or, or , or ,or.......... But hey, 5 bucks is 5 bucks. That's cheap compared to chasing leak for an hour or so :rolleyes:

nhmaster

10-06-2009, 07:39 AM

Wait Wait, let me do the reply for ya.

I have never had a leak with a plastic fitting. If the plastic fitting is properly prepared and installed there should never be any problem with them. :D

nhmaster

10-06-2009, 07:44 AM

RMelo, all funning aside. Do youself a favor and use quality brass or ss fittings. When I go on a pump call and the lines are piped with plastic fittings the first thing do is change them all. Why? because a lot of years of experiance has shown me that plastic fittings are crap. They leak, They loosen up over time. Yes they are a lot cheaper then metal but we're only talking a few bucks compared to a lot of hassle if the plastic ones crap out. The other aggrivation with plastic threaded fittings is the tendency for them to strip very easy if they are not perfectly inserted. Too much teflon tape on them makes the problem worse.

Gary Slusser

10-06-2009, 08:03 AM

Yeah I follow directions and don't over tighten things. I also use the right size wrenches and know how much tape to use and don't cross thread fittings.

I also chase metal threads with a galvanized fitting/nipple to true them up before screwing a plastic fitting into them, but that's just me thinking ahead.

Now if you were saying you showed up, before becoming a teacher, and found water leaks at plastic fittings, that would be different but ya didn't so it sounds as if yer just scared of plastic fittings. That's totally understandable but there is nothing to fear but fear itself. And I know that over tightening plastic fittings is the primary cause of leaks.

nhmaster

10-06-2009, 08:15 AM

What I have seen and repaired on are a whole lot of systems with suction line leaks at plastic fittings that went away when I changed them to metal ones. If you feel a big need to save a couple bucks then by all means go for it. I find it amazing that you will even consider arguing against a higher quality product but hey, the customer has your number, not mine. 37 years in the field. Three in the classroom.

Gary Slusser

10-06-2009, 08:46 AM

You Gary, just to set the recored straight. I started teaching 3 years ago. Till then and well still, I have and still do own a plumbing and heating company that employs 13 technicians and 5 in the office. I only semi-retired from field work about 2 years ago.

We have been in business continually since 1952 when my father founded the company. My brother now runs the day to day operations. I can post a picture of the shop if you would like. Maybe you can post a picture of your headquarters, you know the motor home? Must be tough to take that on service calls. :rolleyes:

All the more reason you shouldn't be scared and reasons that you should know better than to spit into the DIYer and plastic fittings wind like old farriers (ya know, horse shoers) did when the model A hit the fields and paths of America and the old guys were scared going so fast would suck the air outa ya?

Learn how to do it right, read instructions and follow them, learn from mistakes and keep an open mind.

No man, service in a motor home! it's 2009 and my Dad didn't set me up in a business, but man it's the age of computers and other high techie things, cell phone pictures and web cams and such, you don't go on service calls! you troubleshoot over the phone and with pictures in emails!! Any of them techs of your brothers computer literate? Spend some of Dad's money and get them into the 21st century. Buy'em all a Blackberry and leran'em to tune in here so I can help them learn.

nhmaster

10-06-2009, 09:28 AM

Fantastic, just like Star Trek, Who knew?, what's next, talking pictures? :rolleyes:

No... you don't go on service calls, most of the rest of us still do.

Yes, my father did set me up in business. He also trained me and spent the money to send me to college, and I am damn thankfull to him for doing so. Is that a problem? Isn't that the kind of things that fathers are supposed to do? If you are implying that I have all that I have because of his help then yes, my father is truley responsible for putting me on the path to sucess. The 37 years I have owned and run the business have gone quite well because of his care. My son and my brothers son also work for me. I suppose it would be better if I made them get a job at McDonalds.

Gary Slusser

10-06-2009, 07:30 PM

Fantastic, just like Star Trek, Who knew?, what's next, talking pictures? :rolleyes:
Why yes, it's called youtube.

No... you don't go on service calls, most of the rest of us still do.
I used to; til I got smart. Then I got online and 5 years later I started selling things online and shut down the water treatment and then the pump business and that was 7 yrs ago, and here we are, me'n you... you and I. You in schrool with troubled teens and me up at 7800' in the Colorado Rockies in my motor home justagittin'it south. Did I ever tell you I owned and operated 18 wheelers? Yep, 3 Peterbilts and a Freightliner. And you expect me to be scared of plastic fittings...

nhmaster

10-06-2009, 07:42 PM

Nobody said anything about being scared of plastic insert fittings. I just said they are crap. Why use crap when you can spend 5 dollars more for something that ain't crap? I just don't get it? why in gods name would you even consider using them? penny wise, pound foolish.