Bathroom Drain Pipe Woe

[witch_wyzwurd]

I removed the toilet in the home I just purchased, because I'm tiling the floor. This is my first time ever replacing a flange and such.

Here's my woe:

The drain pipe is cast iron, and 3 7/8 inch inside diameter. The metal flange that is partly still on it is glued to the outside of the pipe, and I tried prying it off by lifting the flange from underneath the part that rests on the floor, but the ring just busted apart, leaving an inch wide ring of metal hugging the pipe. There are no screw holes in the flange for mounting.

I've tiled up to the flange part still glued to the pipe, but my ceramic tile surface is higher than the half-flange.

My first question: Would a wax-free toilet seal be my best option in this instance? And since my drain pipe is 3 7/8 inch inside diameter, would I use a 4x3 combination? I tried 4-inch, but ribs on seal are too wide to fit into pipe.
I tried a 4/3, and the seal goes in pipe, and pushes in semi-tightly about 1/2-inch from the top of the seal. Is that enough of a hug?

Or...

My second question: Because I can't get remaining part of old flange off of the pipe, should I just try to drill holes through it myself and rest a new flange on top of it... this, I figured would also get the flange above the tile's surface. Are flanges made for 3 7/8-inch drain pipe?

The home was built in 1951, and I'm guessing this is all original piping.

[Gary Swart]

Your best course of action is to call a plumber to properly remove the old flange and install a new on that rests on top of the finished floor. Flanges should not be recessed below the floor. Other things will result in a hack job and likely not be satisfactory either in the beginning or in the future.

[witch_wyzwurd]

Thanks for your response, but I came to a forum to learn how I could do it myself. If I wanted to call a plumber I would've just done so.

So with that said:

How do I remove the flange that is glued to the pipe? By heating it?
Are there flanges for drain pipes that have 3 7/8th inch inside diameter?

Any answers to the original questions plus the two above are greatly appreciated.

[hj]

You come to the forum to learn how to do it yourself, AND when not to try to do it yourself. The flange is NOT glued to the cast iron pipe, and it should be removed before installing a new one. YOU do not have the experience or equipment to do either task. AND if you break something in the process you WILL be retiling the floor, but a sensible DIYer would have corrected the flange BEFORE tiling the floor.

[witch_wyzwurd]

The flange is NOT glued to the cast iron pipe
Ok. So if you tell me that the flange is not glued to the cast iron pipe, how about telling me how it is affixed to the pipe. It's definitely not affixed to the floor. There are no holes on it's surface, and there are no screws in it.


YOU do not have the experience or equipment to do either task
I just remodeled my whole house. I redid the floors, the trim work, some electrical, all decorating, painting, I even repiped some underneath the kitchen sink, bathroom sink, and toilet. And I had no experience in any of it. But I did it, because I realize in life that anything is easy enough to do as long as you understand what needs to be done and you're willing to do it right. And as far as equipment goes, just like all the equipment I had to buy in order to do all the remodeling so far, I'm sure if I don't have the tools needed right now, any handyman store will. Unless you're suggesting they'll deny my money at the register?


AND if you break something in the process you WILL be retiling the floor
Break something? It's a cast iron pipe and a metal flange. What's there to break?


but a sensible DIYer would have corrected the flange BEFORE tiling the floor.
Oh, wow! Genius advice. Thanks alot. Lol. I obviously didn't retile around the drain pipe! I have ceramic tile set to go down in that area, yes, but, obviously, I didn't mortar there yet!


Are there any sensible users here that can lend a helping hand? Thank you.

[Gary Swart]

The flange is attached with molten lead and oakum. Go to the Handyman store and tell them you want tools to heat a poured lead joint so you can remove it. On the way home, stop at your home insurance company and make sure the fire insurance is paid up. "A man's got to know his limitations." Dirty Harry.

[nhmaster]

There are many things that a homeowner can do with little difficulty. This ain't one of them. In fact, it can turn into a project for a seasoned professional depending on the condition of the cast iron. The closet flange is leaded into the closet bend below it. Special tools are needed to remove the lead and finally the flange. Melting it out does not work because you can't get the fittings hot enough without risking cracking them and or burning the house down. Even if you do manage to drill and chip the old lead and oakum out then you are sitting there with an open hub that will need a new flange leaded into it. Again, special tools and skills. Do yourself a favor and leave this to a pro with the tools.

[witch_wyzwurd]

Tools required:

1 Power drill (mine's a $20 key-chuck from store)
1 cheap screwdriver ($1)
1 drill bit (unless you break a couple like me; but that's because I bent it too far a few times... about $1; mine came in a set of bits that cost me like $15)
1 prybar (like $7)
1 hour or less of time

So. In other words. All I had to do was drill some holes through the led. Stick my cheap screwdriver in the holes and pry up the led. Then after the led was removed, all I had to do was use my screwdriver like a chisel and clear away the oakum. Then pry out the flange with a prybar. Took me less than an hour. Saved a whole lots of money.

I hope you learned something from the unexperienced, tool-less fool. :}

No special insurance required!

But, I'll give it to ya "hj"; I did break something. Two things actually. Two drill bits. Oh no! But I didn't break the bank!

Thanks for your replies.

[nhmaster]

OK, now how you gonna put her back together? Got a set of caulking irons handy? Know the difference between an inside and an outside iron? How much oakum goes in there and how tight does it get packed? How much lead on top and are there any special requirements for a good pour? How about a lead pot? For that matter do you have any idea what type of lead to use? What about the Oakum? Home depot don't sell it. so here's what you are going to do. Stuff a plastic flange in there and use three tubes of silicone, yes? Not code but hey, look at all the money you saved. You will be glad to know that I have saved your posts in order that I might better support a debate that we licensed professionals have been having for quite some time so thanks for that. ;)

[witch_wyzwurd]

A-ha! I am studying this aspect. Since I am new to this, I am slowly moving a step at a time towards a finished product. 3 tubes of caulk... no, of course not. I will guarantee you that I will find the way, if there's only one, to finish with a secure method for doing this. And not a slop job. And, you're right, led and oakum will most likely not be the solution... I'll agree to that... or maybe it will. Just depends how I get pushed to solve this. You'll have to admit though, that I'm graduating into higher levels of toilet drain pipe and flange knowledge rather quickly... no? So, yes, I will post back here with my solution... and... if you're lucky... a photo of what I concoct.:cool:

[Dunbar Plumbing]

3 tubes of caulk made my tire stop going down on my truck.


I'm on top of my game james!

[Gary Swart]

You should be able to find a Fernco adapter that will make the transition from the cast iron. They do make some flanges that will fit into the CI hub, but I do not know if they would be long enough. There are also doughnut fittings that will adapt from the CI to PVC pipe. This method uses a short piece of PVC into the doughnut then a regular flange over the pipe which would be cut to a length that would allow the flanges to set on top of the finished floor. I would suggest shopping at "real" plumbing shop as opposed to a Big Box store as they would more likely to have what you need and be able to offer specific advice on just how to use the products.

[SewerRatz]

I wonder what city and state Witch_wyzurd lives in?

[MACPLUMB 777]

GET ONE OF THESE IT WILL BOLT DOWN AS A REPLACEMENT FLANGE

http://www.instantset.com/closetrings.jpg

[Scuba_Dave]

Isn't the normal thing to do simply install a spacer on top of the old flange if the floor is too high? :confused:

Like a 1 minute fix not including going to the store

[witch_wyzwurd]

Gary: Thanks for the knowledge. I will research Fernco.
Ratz: Wisconsin. Why do you wonder?

777: I'll research the product. My main concern is what to fill the hole up with. I thought expanding foam? Not sure about it though. Not fond of th product, plus would it be easy enough to remove if I ever had to remove the pipe?

Dave: Are you suggesting that all I had to do was rest a new flange on top of the old one? Then run a pipe extension to the new height? Would I just wrap the new flange around the new pipe section then? Not sure how you would've done this. Please tell me more.

[SewerRatz]

Just wanted to know what plumbing code you fall under is all.

[hj]

quote; I just remodeled my whole house. I redid the floors, the trim work, some electrical, all decorating, painting, I even repiped some underneath the kitchen sink, bathroom sink, and toilet. And I had no experience in any of it. But I did it, because I realize in life that anything is easy enough to do as long as you understand what needs to be done and you're willing to do it right.

Now, the question is WHO checked your work to be sure it was done RIGHT? Even the worst DIY or handyman thinks his work is RIGHT, until someone tells him differently. What could you have broken? You could have broken the cast iron riser, for one thing. Just because you DID NOT, does not mean that you COULD NOT have.

[Scuba_Dave]

I dunno
I've always seen the flange extensions - for when tiling & the existing flange is too low

http://handyowner.com/img/toilet_on_tile/02_no_caulk_flange_extension.jpg

[witch_wyzwurd]

Now, the question is WHO checked your work to be sure it was done RIGHT?
For painting, I did, because I was a professional painter.
For flooring, my next door neighbor, because he's a floor installer.
For electrical, I learned from a home remodeler he came over on a whim for free to teach me how to hook up an oven range. He taught me how to pigtail and about wires.
For plumbing, workers at hardware stores showed me how to kooh up pipes and use sawzaw for cutting pipe.
I'd hate to think what you think I did. Like you must think my home is half-way falling apart or that I used Elmers glue to glue everything together. Or better yet, Scotch tape. Why are you so negative?.


Now, the question is WHO checked your work to be sure it was done RIGHT? Even the worst DIY or handyman thinks his work is RIGHT, until someone tells him differently. What could you have broken? You could have broken the cast iron riser, for one thing. Just because you DID NOT, does not mean that you COULD NOT have.
Thanks for your caution.

[witch_wyzwurd]

I dunno
I've always seen the flange extensions - for when tiling & the existing flange is too low
Anyone want to argue with Scuba Dave? I've never held one of those extensions in my hand, so I don't know if the sizing would be right or if the screw holes would fit outside the diameter of the old flange and led/oakum.


Everyone I've talked to suggests filling in the hole by building the floor up there, then putting new flange down, which would be over tile I put in. Seems the way to go... anyone?

[witch_wyzwurd]

And the job's complete.

How I did it:

I called a plumber. He came over chipped off some rough edges on the top of the cast-iron pipe to make it smooth. Then put a new flange on and had enough width to catch the wood and drill in to existing floor. He sold me the job and all parts for toilet installation, such as screws, flange, and wax ring for $131.00 after tax. He told me that floor didn't have to be built up underneath because flange covered up the hole.

Basically, the only thing I didn't know was to chip off the pipe to make it smooth and that the hole didn't need covering. I spent way more than if I would've done it myself, but without the knowledge to get the job done right, I would've never learned how to do it. Knowledge is good.

What do you guys/gals think of the cost? And the method of the completed job? I'm in the most southeastern corner of Wisconsin.

By the way, main big store does sell lead and oakum. Although the lead is some sort of plastic lead that doesn't need heating.

Any-hoot, I'll be happy to get my only toilet back in. Enough of a plastic bag and bucket for me! :}

[Gary Swart]

I doubt if you could find very many plumbers that would even start their truck for $131. Do, assuming the workmanship is professional, you got a real deal. I can't comment on the "plastic lead" other than to say I would get some professional advice before using it. Good luck on the rest of your project.

[Cookie]

131.00 is a good price to me. I paid around 285.00 for the same thing and the first plumber didn't do it right, (long story and wouldn't fix it) the next plumber came in and put another new flange in, around the same price if I remember correctly. The second plumber while using a torch set my smoke alarm off, and was yelling, " hey lady! can't you do something about that alarm!" So, standing there waving a towel didn't stop it while he was using the torch, so I had to stand on a chair above the flight of stairs and remove the alarm.

Some people are all heart.

[witch_wyzwurd]

I doubt if you could find very many plumbers that would even start their truck for $131. Do, assuming the workmanship is professional, you got a real deal. I can't comment on the "plastic lead" other than to say I would get some professional advice before using it. Good luck on the rest of your project
I called a business in the yellow pages that has been around awhile. Mike, the plumber, told me he has been doing plumbing for 31 years, so I'm assuming he's on target with professionalism. Beyond that, he said he's worked in virtually every trade having to do with home remodeling and building. He told me he was giving me a deal because I had already done some of the job and he could tell that I would've done it myself and that I wanted to learn. He was kick-ass.

I won't be using the lead and oakum now anyways. Thanks for the farewell wishes, and thanks for all your help. I learned some new things, and that can't be beat!


131.00 is a good price to me. I paid around 285.00 for the same thing and the first plumber didn't do it right, (long story and wouldn't fix it) the next plumber came in and put another new flange in, around the same price if I remember correctly. The second plumber while using a torch set my smoke alarm off, and was yelling, " hey lady! can't you do something about that alarm!" So, standing there waving a towel didn't stop it while he was using the torch, so I had to stand on a chair above the flight of stairs and remove the alarm.

:rolleyes: Oh geez. Why did he use a torch?

[Cookie]

Well, he was smoking cigerettes while he worked but I think it wasn't to light those, :), I think it was for the lead & okum. Just my guess.

[kordts]

For painting, I did, because I was a professional painter.
For flooring, my next door neighbor, because he's a floor installer.
For electrical, I learned from a home remodeler he came over on a whim for free to teach me how to hook up an oven range. He taught me how to pigtail and about wires.
For plumbing, workers at hardware stores showed me how to kooh up pipes and use sawzaw for cutting pipe.
I'd hate to think what you think I did. Like you must think my home is half-way falling apart or that I used Elmers glue to glue everything together. Or better yet, Scotch tape. Why are you so negative?.


Thanks for your caution.
Having a neighbor do your floor and smockmen tell you how kooh up pipes isn't the same as inspection.

[Interlodge]

Just an observation... there are always many ways to skin a cat and often they have both benefits and negatives. Often it is simply deciding what your willing to live with (and different people have different ideas on that) For instance many people talk about flange extenders to solve flange height issues but you probably wouldn't be very happy if you bought a new expensive house and later found a plumber had installed flange extenders simply because he misjudged his initial measurements. Yet they are used by many as a shortcut, time saver, problem solve and there are probably millions working successfully even though we all know what needs to be done to do it the right way.
I'm faced with a situation where I have 3" copper DWV and I'm in the process of a bathroom remodel with shower mods and toilet relo. Just look at the cost of 3" copper alone. Many would say just splice into things with ferncos and plumb the extensions with plastic. IT would take multiple ferncos. It could be done to code.
But for me the integrity of the original plumbing is a factor. I want to keep it to the same standard as new. There will come a time down the road when I might have to replace it all in a proper replumb but in the meantime I don't want to start musing it all up. If I was going to rip the house down in 5 years I might approach it differently. I've bought houses where I just deduct the whole cost of a replumb because the homeowner, over time, made multiple "little fixe" here and there.

It's your house and as long as you are comfortable with the solution and it meets code then it works for you.
On the other hand you might be surprised at the cost of doing it to original standards since you've done the grunt work like removing the toilet yourself and you'd be using the plumber just for their area of expertise. In the end what did you save if the buyer and their home inspectors deduct the cost to upgrade it down the road. And often once we see one issue, smart buyers just figure it's all going to be that way.

Otherwise (IMHO) the cast clamping flanges might be the best alternative if it can get a prper mating hold. But you should know the +/- of an insidevsoutside clamp esepcially depending on your pipe size. There again I've heard people say "it's only a powder room so no one should be doing ***x". Real plumbers just can't think that way.

I'm not a plumber but I've learned a lot from the people on these boards that are generous enough to share their expertise and yes sometimes their opinion, but usually their opinion comes from years of wisdom. You wouldn't be happy if you hired a plumber and he used dodgy methods on your new expensive house even if he was passing the savings on to you. On the other hand you wouldn't want gold plated shutoff valves if your plumbing is barely worth saving.

It's as simple as how would a Ritz Carlton expect their plumber to fix it versus the Bates motel......just decide where on that spectrum you want to be based on your situation.

[witch_wyzwurd]

Well, he was smoking cigerettes while he worked but I think it wasn't to light those... I think it was for the lead & okum. Just my guess.
Is there a reason he wouldn't have just pried out the lead and oakum. I did, and it took me less than an hour to do. By the way, can you shut off that thing lady! :D


Having a neighbor do your floor and smockmen tell you how kooh up pipes isn't the same as inspection.
No. The next door neighbor took a look at my installation.
As far as the plumbing... there's only so many ways you can glue together schedule 40 pipe or put a boot on or install kitchen drain pipe (especially when instructions come with).

Thanks Interlodge. My work has already been done.

[Cookie]

ha ha, I tried my best to shut that alarm off. ;)

Why and what he did with that torch I seriously, can't answer other than it was there and being used and something, smoked alot besides him.

[Terry]

I use the drill bit on lead and pry it out.
I use an old screwdriver.
I've never been able to melt it out.
Pouring a Lead Joint (http://www.terrylove.com/lead_joint.htm)

[Cookie]

What about putting in a new flange, do you have to melt the lead? If so, how does one do it?

[Terry]

Pouring a Lead Joint (http://www.terrylove.com/lead_joint.htm)

[Cookie]

Actually, while you were posting that, I was looking around and I found this, so, this kind of explains that he was using a torch for I guess, to melt the lead, which I assumed he was doing in the first place.

Anyway, the poster got a good price I would think so, according to what I paid. Twice.



Re: cast iron closet flange
Author: e-plumber (NY)
5 minutes Packy?

It takes about five minutes just to melt a ladle of lead, not counting the time to set up the joint, pack the oakum, pour the lead and caulk it.

I agree that it could be relatively quick job, but 5 minutes is pushing it.

e-plumber [mlb.mlb.com]

[Cookie]

I am glad you edited your post Terry to add, Pouring a Lead joint; if it would had been there prior, I would not had bothered you with my question, :)

Thank you so much, such a wonderful post by Master Plumber Mark Weinhammer. Very, detailed. So well done. Great.

[kordts]

Did you put proper pitch or supports on your pipes? Did you make a "s" or a "p" trap? Long sweeps for change of direction? 6" above floodrim before the vents go horizontal? Proper size of pipe per dfu? C/O's at every change of direction? Good luck with that.

[nhmaster]

Deaf Ears I'm afraid. ;)

[Jerome2877]

[Quote ]As far as the plumbing... there's only so many ways you can glue together schedule 40 pipe or put a boot on or install kitchen drain pipe (especially when instructions come with).



Wow, I guess we have wasted our time in school and aprenticing eh? Codes? Inspections? Who needs em! I would be very interested to see your house and the plumbing u have done!