curbless shower

[tucker2]

My folks are wanting to make their home more accessible for my eleven year old niece who is confined to a wheelchair. We're beginning an expansion of their masterbath that will help significantly. Part of the new bath will be a large walk-in shower. They would like to incorporate a curbless design so the floor of the shower will be flush with the floor of the bathroom. The main question is whether this will be possible to do. I know in new construction they make the slab lower than the slab in the rest of the house in order to accomodate the shower pan. Any resources on how this can be accomplished with existing construction would be greatly appreciated. Water and drain lines are beinging moved so some cutting of the foundation is already being planned. Let me know ya'll's thoughts on this.

thanks

[jimbo]

Showers with a driveable ramp instead of a curb are available. You can find it on the net or from a good supplier. You will need to work with your local inspectors as far as requirements on the drain, and what they want for the floor outside the shower, due to the potential overflow.

[LonnythePlumber]

I just love remodeling homes into ADA bathrooms. Sometimes taking part of a bedroom. This can be so nice for her. Think about hands free lavatory faucet and look in the assisted living magazines.
On the subject I agree with Jim on the curbs. I use vinyl flooring without problems but every jurisdiction is different. Jim is in California where they are more protective of their citizens than other parts of the country. My plumbers that work there and in Kansas say one of our $100,000. homes would be worth $800,000. out there. Probably won't want to hurt one of them babies.

[jdsoreacres]

We are remodeling our two bathrooms into a combination of something... The smaller bath is 5x8 now and we will be changing it to 6x7'. Quite small to have have a vanity, toilet and shower. We think we want tiled walls and floor (waterproof right?) and the shower to be a 3x4' area with no stall - only gently sloping floor to the drain with a shower curtain ring from the ceiling. (Something like a locker room shower.) Gently sloping so no one will lose balance etc. This bathroom is for guests but also the daily morning shower for my husband and I since "our" bath will have a large Sanijet tub we don't want to dirty with daily showers.

Our contractor has said "sure" "good idea" for the space etc, but I wonder... what should we watch out for? :o

[Bob NH]

I once stayed in a hotel room set up for wheelchair access. The shower had a rubber strip dam about 1/8" thick and 1.5" high that the wheel chair could simply roll over.

[jadnashua]

You need to build this properly, and there are a lot of people that don't have a clue. Suggest you visit www.johnbridge.com (http://www.johnbridge.com) where they can help you out using the nationally approved methods that work. People tend to think that tile and grout is waterproof - it is not, nor is cement board (cbu). Waterproofing something like this is critical. There are several methods. Check out that website and you'll be guided to them.

[johnfrwhipple]

There are many things to watch for if your contractor is offering up a curbless showers. Many curbless designs fail for different reasons. Here are a few key points I have found in building successful curbless showers.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/Vancouver%20curbless%20showers/IMG_2880_2.jpg
Small barrier free bathroom we did a few years back.

1). The entire bathroom floor should be water tight and the water proofing should run up the walls 4"-6" at least in the none shower enclousure.

2). The floor drain should be a 2" ABS pipe and not restricted to 1 1/2" at any point.

3). Extra venting line from the shower drain is a good idea.

4). Waterproof the floor and flood test (24 hr).

5). Think about the direction of water flow from the shower head and or shower hand held. Many floors fail if the hand held hits the floor at the wrong direction.

6). Water test a live shower before glass and tile goes up. If your floor is water tight there should be no concerns over this test.

7). Your plumber may need framing help to recess the floor drain a little below stock grade.

8). Insure your setting materials work with your tile choices - some materials require you to only us non-modified thin-sets.

9). Try and postion the water flow to strike your body (of course) but the missed spray should ideally hit a glass panel and run back to the drain.

10). If you have multiple spray heads they should all be tested and tested in random patterns. Take your socks off and try it out.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/Vancouver%20curbless%20showers/CurblessRiverRockShowerFloor01.jpg

Here is a project of a friend of mine. I help to consult on the shower base design and this is a fun functional shower


http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/Marble%20and%20Stone%20-%20Bathroom%20Renovations%20Vancouver/7329_145449376999_29496606999_31392.jpg

When working with glass blocks and glass panels thought needs to go into the anchor points.



Hope this helps.

If anything asking these questions of contractor should help you know if they have experience in building them.

[jimbo]

I once stayed at a hotel where the entire large bathroom was a wet room. No shower curtains, tile from wall to wall and floor to ceiling. Very nice room. This was in Pattya Beach, and as for the rest of the details about what went on, I am sworn to secrecy!

[johnfrwhipple]

You can raise the floor everywhere else with a good 4-1 mix (this step can cover your floor heat as well). We prep the old floors well by cleaning and priming then we scratch coat a mortified thinset mix and then add on the 4-1 mix and grade. Once your pitch is correct through out the bathroom get everything watertight and tile.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/My%20Shower%20Grate%20Shop/IMG_7114.jpg
A current project. More pictures on the second page of this thread.

[hj]

Since a curbless shower CANNOT fill with water, a pan is redundant. But the floor does have to be cut so the tile can slope to the drain.

[jadnashua]

Since a curbless shower CANNOT fill with water, a pan is redundant. But the floor does have to be cut so the tile can slope to the drain.

I wouldn't put it quite that way...depending on use and rest time, there will always be some moisture that makes its way underneath the tile and grout. WIthout a sloped liner to the drain, that moisture can accumulate and so can some nasty stuff. The pH of concrete ends up getting modified over the years if moisture and contaminants are introduced, so it may not support growths for a number of years. And, if it can dry out in between (climate makes a difference - say AZ verses FL) you may never experience problems. But wood in the walls is subject to degradation if there's no liner or other protection.

The TCNA guidelines always require a liner, regardless of the location. This could be a surface or subsurface, depending on the contruction technique used.

[johnfrwhipple]

A great source for online pictures is at www.houzz.com

Lots of examples of curbless design (http://www.houzz.com/ideabooks/24257/list/Curbless-Showers--Wet-Rooms--Level-Access-Bathroom-Renovations).

[johnfrwhipple]

There are some great options out there right now in the way of Linear Shower Drains, Slot Drains, Line Drains, Channel Drains or trench. These will look great in a new curbless shower.

ACO, Quick Drain USA, My Shower Grate Shop, Luxe, Infinity, Schluter, Nobel Company and CeraLine all have their own linear shower drain. Consider one of these drains in the beginning of your planning stages as each one has it's own unique set up and each home offer's it's own twist on the install. The drains from Infinity, CeraLine and Schluter would be the three I would avoid for reasons of poor design and that it is very hard to find a ticketed plumber with a kerdi card and CeraLine has no recommended installers and I'm told that their drain requires a pro. The infinity drain is just silly with a flat bottom.

Send me a note or post on this thread if you would like help with these new channel drains as I have worked with and touched all four. Here in Vancouver I can bring the ones I inventory by your office or home.

Every home is unique and the skill set of your trades and local city rules will dictate which drain you purchase and plan for.

I would recommend a second drain with a curbless installation. This has become my opinion over the past few months and the more Australian and European examples I see of this the more good sense it makes. I had not done this at my rough in phase but now will re visit my work. A second back up drain needs to stay wet so how can you keep it that way? What would you pro plumbers suggest for a typical bathroom layout. In my home I plan to use my vanity sinks waste line to keep the second back up drain full of water. I have never heard any good things about auto primers. Have my guys not run across a good product or are they troublesome? I can conceal the p Trap in the floor cavity and have ease access from the vanities cabinet.

Suggestions???

[johnfrwhipple]

I was up in Whistler last week measuring up for a few linear shower drains. These where in some pretty fancy homes and the building team had prepared for me a drop in each bathroom.

Now a linear drain at one end can let us use a large format tile but we will still have a drop into this shower. You could call it curbless but it still requires taking a step to enter.

This type of shower construction is very common. Here in Vancouver the number one mistake I see is inadequate framing members. Almost every project I visit is built to a L/360-L/480 range. You need L/720 for large format tile and natural stone.

This sounds like a simple detail but it affects the entire home. Staircases. Transitions from room to room. The best time to work on these barrier free renovations is right after demo or right at the design phase.

Instead of dropping the shower like shown. Drop the entire bathroom. Way more options will unfold and much more in the way of drain selection and product choice will come into play.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/Recessed%20Floor%20Framing%20For%20Curbless%20Show ers/IMG_0094.jpg

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/Recessed%20Floor%20Framing%20For%20Curbless%20Show ers/IMG_0095.jpg

Trying to design a curbless shower when the electrical and plumbing is in place makes no sense either. There are countless ways to achieve each look.

Simple measure like a recessed floor expand the design possibilities.

JW

July 3, 2011 8000 views

[johnfrwhipple]

I'm building another curbless shower feature out in Burnaby here in Vancouver BC. I was called out when the first attempt (not mine) to build this curbless shower failed flood testing. When the inspector arrived the client had a temporary dam installed and the the shower's wet zone partially filled with water. The inspector told the client to fill up more of the shower pan and they did. The next morning when the inspector came back the shower pan was leaking.

This is exactly why you need to flood test these barrier free showers. Depending on the design you may or may not need to build a temporary dam to do so.

I have been getting a few requests lately as to how I build my dams. The simple answer is very simply and with what ever is on site most times.

Here is a look at the dam I made last week in Burnaby.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/How%20to%20Flood%20Test%20A%20Curbless%20Shower/IMG_4129.jpg

This is an off cut of MDF molding I brought from home. The MDF measures 1" wide by 1 1/4" tall - I cut it to width. This is a temporary measure so it is not nailed or siliconed down. When I cut it to length I took care to cut it exactly the size and just a hair smaller so as to not put any pressure on the waterproofing. In this shower I choose to work with Aqua Defense - Mapei.


http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/How%20to%20Flood%20Test%20A%20Curbless%20Shower/IMG_4130.jpg

The next step is the waterproof connection. This is a banding tape made by Mapei which can be used with their liquid waterproofing and cement based waterproofing products. I used this to waterproof the MDF and created the dam.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/How%20to%20Flood%20Test%20A%20Curbless%20Shower/IMG_4269.jpg

I did not want to depend on only the strength of the Aqua Defense to hold back the weight of the water and I brought in a couple off cuts of cement board and placed them against the MDF. Then I added two boxes of drywall compound to weight the cement board down.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/How%20to%20Flood%20Test%20A%20Curbless%20Shower/IMG_4274.jpg

This entire procedure was less than thirty minutes work. A piece of cake. Required by the city inspection office in Burnaby and most likely in your home town too....

[johnfrwhipple]

....To plug this shower I used a little 2" twist and lock plug made by Cherne.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/How%20to%20Flood%20Test%20A%20Curbless%20Shower/CherneIndustries2inch50mmGribber.jpg

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/How%20to%20Flood%20Test%20A%20Curbless%20Shower/Chernetestplug2.jpg

After filling the water in the shower's wet zone so the drain connection and entire shower floor was covered I marked the water level and documented it for the inspector. With this shower we have access from below and the inspector can see the entire area below the flood test. Some times this is not so easy and you may be asked to open up drywall. We got around this two tests back by flood testing the showers for three days and sending in pictures daily.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/How%20to%20Flood%20Test%20A%20Curbless%20Shower/IMG_4275.jpg

[johnfrwhipple]

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/How%20to%20Flood%20Test%20A%20Curbless%20Shower/Markingthewaterlevelforacurblessshowerfloodtest.jp g

I used this brass copper to pex fitting and a Canadian Dollar Coin to measure the water level. With a set up like this you can slide the coin front to back and get the water level right at the half coin mark. With a set up like this there is no guessing. I asked my client to check the coin at mid day and day's end and if the coin was not being touched by water we had a problem and to call me.

I got a text the following day informing me that we passed inspection. The flood test was only 27 hours and just past the 24 hour requirement. The water level did not budge.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/How%20to%20Flood%20Test%20A%20Curbless%20Shower/Markingthewaterlevel.jpg

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/How%20to%20Flood%20Test%20A%20Curbless%20Shower/CurblessShowerFloodTestwithdamVancouver.jpg

[johnfrwhipple]

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/How%20to%20Flood%20Test%20A%20Curbless%20Shower/NeoAngleFloodTest.jpg

Here is a prior flood test on a Neo-Angle Walk In shower. This shower is in the District of North Vancouver and like the other shower under the careful watch of our city officials.

This shower is a little different. The Dam much easier to make because we are building up the floor outside the shower to accommodate the large format tile.

I added a strip of 1/4" Hardi Board outside this shower and since the shower's pan is recessed we where able to flood out the entire wet zone.

[johnfrwhipple]

This is a lot of information on Kerdi Installations. Some here but most abroad. I was doing some research on Kerdi Flood Tests and it amazes me that not one shower example can be found. These flood test are required and before you heed the advice of some random person online that tells you that you don't need to or let yourself "Believe" that it is not needed here is a simple way to build a Kerdi Curbless and test it.

The secret ingredient is Kerdi Fix. Kerdi Fix is the most amazing waterproofing product out there. I love it.

If you plan to bring your waterproofing out into the remainder of the bathroom (which you should and you should also be looking at a second emergency drain) you can leave the Kerdi un installed to the Ditra (the tailing 2" of the run). With a little Kerdi fix you can fold up the Kerdi over say a 2"x4" or something like I used and by using a couple of Kerdi Corners dam the wet zone with ease.

A tube of Kerdi Fix and a couple of corners is less than $30.00. $30.00 plus maybe a half hours work. Why would you not flood test it? Do not believe what you may read online that this step is not required - call the inspectors office yourself. If your tile installers says it is not needed tell him "That's OK - do it anyway." Tell your drywall crew you will be re-testing the showers after they are done so take care in the bathrooms.

And remember to get your tile installers "Kerdi Certificate Number" many Plumbing Inspectors ask for this at inspection time. You should have this number from your installer before you even send out a deposit cheque.

[johnfrwhipple]

A linear drain will open up the doors to tile selection and tile layout patterns. That said common sense also needs to be followed.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/Leaky%20Showers%20Vancouver%20-%20Repairs%20and%20upgrades/Screenshot2011-07-27at55935AM.png

I'm not sure how the tile setter thought this shower would drain properly. With a slight change in the layout this shower could have been outstanding. Me and the boys are going to fix it up and get the shower working like planned.

Before you trust your crew to install these new linear drains ask them if they have before. Ask for references. Check them.

Is your installer qualified to install the waterproofing product?

How will the tile be installed?

Will you be flood testing the shower or the plumber?

Lots of details - work them out first.

The owner of the shower above called me after doing some research into the finished job. She didn't think it looked right - she was right. It was all wrong.

[Groutman]

Wow that is a great deal of work. It looks like John has done this before and has covered all of the steps. Great info Thanks.....

[johnfrwhipple]

"Have you ever build a curbless shower before?" simple question ASK IT!!!

This is what happens when your "Team" talks them selves into that building a curbless shower is easy. We are ripping out this nearly completed bathroom to re do the whole thing.

What a waste of materials and time. Another pickup of trash in the landfill because some contractor watched a little do much DIY in the evenings.

HIRE PRO's to build these showers. Ask your builder "Have you ever built a curbless shower before?" then check the references.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/Schluter%20Systems%20-%20Kerdi%20Niches%20Vancouver/Screenshot2011-08-25at82206PM.png

Other wise your new shower can look like this before you have even tried it.

What a Joke....

Here is a look at how we will rebuild this shower and make it work.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/ADA%20Sinks%20and%20Bathroom%20Design/SchluterCurblessShowerCustom.jpg

In this drawing the red zone is the primary shower zone and will be inclosed with a glass panel and door. This is a steamer and a curbless shower.

The linear drain will go wall to wall and this is key to the tile layout in this shower's construction. There are ways of using smaller drains but a different grading process needs to be used. In this drawing the red zone is graded at 2% or roughly 1/4" per foot. The green zone will be set at 1% and used as a safety factor to protect against any water that gets out from under the door or through the cracks in the glass panel or door. A by pass door system would be safer but not practical in a steam shower system.

The blue zone is a compound angle with a 1% slope following the green zone and a 1% slope up and away from the green going left to right in the picture. This will direct any overflowed toilet or sink back to the green and then to the red and then down the drain.

I have studied hundreds of bathroom builds around the world and spoken to dozens of European architects and builders. The key element in many of these builds are this change in pitches.

Currently I'm working with a Spanish Setting crew in China Town on a new project. He showed me a few of his curbless shower projects and his preference for using a simple point drain. I showed him my linear drain pictures and he got a huge smile ear to ear. 5 minutes later he handed me his card. What was obvious was that this Spanish crew have no issues setting large format tile and setting them exactly how they want.

Many times it is the rooms shape and entry locations that will dictate if a curbless shower can be build.

With a lot of the higher end builders I work with they prefer building "Drop Down" showers. These Drop Down showers have no curb but are build so they have a 2" drop from finished floor to the shower. Then grading further down from there to the drain. Here is a look at some drop down builds we are working on;

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/ADA%20Sinks%20and%20Bathroom%20Design/Screenshot2011-08-28at95533AM.png

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/ADA%20Sinks%20and%20Bathroom%20Design/Screenshot2011-08-28at95551AM.png

These framing changes are part of the original build. Do not modify any framing members without discussing the changes with the City Hall and structural engineer.

[johnfrwhipple]

Here is a peak at the newest job we are quoting up in Blue Ridge North Vancouver.

It's a tiny bathroom that measures 64"x75".

The door is in the bottom right of the sketch. Toilet to the bottom left and a small 28" Vanity will sit top right.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/ADA%20Sinks%20and%20Bathroom%20Design/CurblessShowerLayout.jpg

This curbless shower will utilize a little creative tile setting and floor prep. Notice the 4 zones of colour all grading towards the square drain. This is a very common technique in other parts of the world to use large format tile with no diagonal cutting.

With this design the tile at the doorway becomes tricky and using a transition piece like a Shulter profile can help. When we get closer to this stage I will showcase it a little more as it is to hard to articulate - at least for me.

[johnfrwhipple]

This newest curbless feature of ours here in Vancouver is almost wrapped up. The Vanity should be going in today and then a little paint, a counter and sink and this bathroom is ready for action.

Yesterday and a couple days back the steamer unit and shower fixtures where installed.

Here are some pictures;

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/My%20Shower%20Grate%20Shop/IMG_7115.jpg

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/My%20Shower%20Grate%20Shop/IMG_7113.jpg

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/My%20Shower%20Grate%20Shop/IMG_6958.jpg

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/Vancouver%20curbless%20showers/IMG_6944.jpg

[johnfrwhipple]

I got called in the other day to look at a stunning West Vancouver project being built up above the Golf Course in West Vancouver. An amazing home that will feature among other things barrier free transitions from inside to outside and of course no curbs or steps up or down into the shower. There are only simple changes that need to be made to insure this can be done. Map out your elevations closely when design your new home or work with a builder who understands the steps needed.

Building a barrier free house is great but if you have a 2" drop to the back deck or a 1 1/4" flashing around your front door - it's not really going to be easy to navigate.

The shower I went by to measure up had the plumbing drain rough in at the far back right of the shower. This area had been dropped about 3" for me and when I jumped up and down on the structure it was rock solid (sometimes there not). I inspected below and found increased framing and doubled up 2"x8" on about 14" centers covering maybe a 8' span. I worked out the defelection of this rig (drop down sub floor) when I got home and the deflection rating was over L/1400 L/720 is good enough in my books and L/360 seems to fly in most projects.

Here is a look at the current shower;

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/Vancouver%20curbless%20showers/Screenshot2011-09-25at61108AM.png

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/Vancouver%20curbless%20showers/Screenshot2011-09-23at62524AM.png
My Plan of Attack

If you look at the linear drain and the direction of the arrow this is designed to allow the drain a slight pitch from left to right. Because outside the shower will be level a compound angle once again is created in the shower. This is where the glass channel and setting techniques come to play.

It is one thing to build the structure. Another to order the right drain. Your tile setter is another key player in the team as a lot depends on their skill set.

Here in Vancouver I work with a load of great setters. The last project was awarded to Power House Tile and their boys nailed the install.

I have been following the work of many installers online and have a long list that has 'Certified Linear Drain Installers' * around North America and Canada. If you need a hand tracking down a good crew you might check there for a name or two.

* To my knowledge there is no officially training from any one the top linear drain suppliers and a good tile setter with experience in water proofing showers will be able to install these drains. It is important to remember that most cities require a plumber to install any shower drains and it should be a ticketed or licensed plumber that connects the drain to the home's plumbing system. Unlike conventional showers these new linear shower drains can be waterproofed with a topical waterproofing sheet membrane from Nobel, Durval or Schluter and make for a far superior shower system. With a lot of the cities I only have a builder, architect or designer as a starting point - these recommendations are from www.houzz.com where I have seen their completed projects. Many other recommendations will be from the NTCA and TTMAC organizations. These memberships are North America's top tile related memberships and the men and women who belong to these organizations nine times out of ten will also be your cities top crews...

[Wren Thomos]

Does anyone have any input on the pros and cons of floor-level or "curbless" showers? Of course the American Disabilities Act (ADA) showers allow wheelchair access into the shower for the disabled, and is a really sharp, contemporary, cutting-edge look, but under normal circumstances, are they likely to leak out into the room if the gentle slope to the drain is not effective enough? Under abnormal circumstances, has anyone ever heard of devastating problems caused by sewage backup and there was no "curb" to catch the overflow? Please help, I must decide soon.

[jadnashua]

Regardless of curb or not, the shower area requires at least a 1/4"/foot slope to the drain. If you position things properly, you should not get any water out of the room. If your sewer backed up, a curb may not help at all, so I'm not sure I'd consider that a problem or not.

[johnfrwhipple]

Does anyone have any input on the pros and cons of floor-level or "curbless" showers? Of course the American Disabilities Act (ADA) showers allow wheelchair access into the shower for the disabled, and is a really sharp, contemporary, cutting-edge look, but under normal circumstances, are they likely to leak out into the room if the gentle slope to the drain is not effective enough? Under abnormal circumstances, has anyone ever heard of devastating problems caused by sewage backup and there was no "curb" to catch the overflow? Please help, I must decide soon.

The look is the hottest thing in bathroom design and the curb not so necessary if enough thought is given to the total shower and bathroom design.

Jim mentions that a 1/4" per foot slope is required and this is true of many text books but in fact many shower kits and such are far far less than this. Jim's beloved Schluter manufacture in fact makes a shower floor slope at .6% grade. Some are 1%. The better ones are 2% (which is 1/4" per foot).

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/Mapecem%20Premix%20-%20Fast%20Setting/Screenshot2011-11-20at85248AM.png

Our current curbless shower project in North Vancouver

Water is a funny thing. It can be all slightly different depending on where you live. If you have very mineral rich water that leaves water stains I would consider a slope of 2% to 3% and go with a large tile to reduce the maintence required to keep it clean. If you have softer water and not so much trouble with this staining then a more gradual slope is OK.

I have been loving the Quick Slope from Quick Drain USA of late and this is a ready made 2% slope that allows you to take the guess work out of installing a shower pan. This system works really well.

As always you should plan your bathroom before selecting a drain style (regular or linear), and choose your tile. This will help you choose the best waterproofing products and drain to work with. If your after a nice glass mosiac or natural stone in your shower chance are you will need to work with a waterproofing product that allows modified thin sets. They all do but Schluter System's Kerdi - so watch out for these types of incompatibility issues.

Often a bathroom's floor framing will dictate the type of drain or it's placement.

The location of the bathroom entry door comes into play.

Do you have access from below or not. All factors in design a barrier free bathroom.

As with any shower project a flood test is a code required step to insure it holds water and the waterproofing measures where installed properly. This is so important in the longivety of the install and protecting your home from mold and water damage.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/How%20to%20Flood%20Test%20A%20Curbless%20Shower/FloodTestingaCurblessShowerwithAquaDefence.jpg

This shower is under flood test right now. Hour 45 and holding. My local North Vancouver inspector will be by sometime today to sign off on my work. Regardless if you do the work or if you hire someone else make sure it is clear that the shower is to be flood tested. Not many tile setters know how to build a temporary shower dam but the process is oh so easy. This shower I used Mapei's Aqua Defence for both the floors, walls and temporary curb. I used 2 1/2 gallons of the product with a total cost of $210.00 - cheap insurance for a barrier free shower and a world class product. If your wondering - yes you can use modified thin set over top.

Post a site plan and your vision. If you know which way the joists run I can offer up some ideas on how I would tackle your job. We build curbless showers every month in Vancouver and have been doing it for years.

Good luck with your project!

[johnfrwhipple]

Here is a look at a Neo Angle Curbless Shower we wrapped up two months back.

Notice the extra cuts in the floor tile.
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http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/Frameless%20Glass%20Shower%20Installations%20Vanco uver/Screenshot2011-11-26at40055PM.png


These cuts are designed to pitch the floor outside the shower back to the linear drain. The custom linear drain is a barrier but if water where to skip across I had the tile set like this a safety measure. My clients love this new shower and referred to it as "World Class" a compliment I take to heart since this client does live abroad and travel the world on business!

[jadnashua]

The key to any slope to direct water flow is it should be fairly consistent without birdbaths or humps. When you are manually making the floor, it's best to aim for the 1/4" per foot. On a manufacturered pan, since its slope is tightly controlled during the manufacturering process, you can get by with less since it is very consistent. WHen using Kerdi, you have the choice of using their preformed pan, which may not meet your exact size considerations, or building a traditional preslope in any shape you want with any slope to fit your exact needs. This is less expensive, since the shipping of a large piece gets costly, and deck mud is so cheap. But, if you are looking for speed, and a reliable surface to tile for a DIY'er, their pans have some advantages. You can set it, cover with the membrane and be tiling all the same day.

One thing to consider on any shower floor is how slippery the tile is when wet. There can be significant differences between tile. Also, the grout lines tend to offer additional grip, regardless of the tile (unless you happen to choose epoxy grout, at least some of them). So, while you can use larger tile for a linear drain type of install, you may want to temper that with the specific tile and their size.

[ANGELofDEBT]

14712John,

Not being a person in the business or done a linear drain before, can you point out what is the problem with the shower?

[jadnashua]

You want the water to drain into the drain! It appears that water would tend to pool between the wall and the drain, assuming the slope is from the main area into the drain. It could get there by splashes or directly from the showerhead. You'd either need to reverse the slope on the wall side to the drain, or move the drain next to the wall. Then, it's best if the drain is the full width, as you might get the same pooling at either end.

[johnfrwhipple]

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/Bad%20design%20in%20tile%20layout%20for%20linear%2 0drains/Screenshot2011-12-02at53932AM.png

You can see the residue from the setter cleaning his tools in the shower. When we cut out this failed Kerdi Shower we discovered that the PTrap was 3/4 full of mortar.

In the back corner the tile is sloped in a way that it does not drain very well. It is hard to achieve proper grading and meet industry standards in lippage.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/Schluter%20Systems%20-%20Kerdi%20Niches%20Vancouver/Screenshot2011-08-25at82206PM.png

With a little care and some more for thought all this Kerdi and all this tile would not make it's way to the dump. Here in Canada our "Tile Council" or "Tile Governing Body" is the TTMAC. There are so many version of tile installs it can make your head swim. On Page 89 of the TTMAC Specification Guide it outlines the type of backer boards, thin sets and systems that are acceptable for large format tile. Some highlights of this page are that the last point made are "Waterproofing membrane if required (like building a shower) must be specified. (ANSI A118.10 - 2008 revised) Follow manufacture's recommendations." When outlining the Bond Coat for interior options you have "Latex-Portland cement mortar. Modified ed epoxy emulsion mortars or 100% solids epoxy mortar." Even the grout is spec'd as modified. You can see why Jim and I debate his love of Kerdi so much. I don't think he has a copy of the TTMAC guidelines.

As a builder or homeowner you want to check your setters references. This setter not only had never built a linear drain shower before it was also his first steam shower. The evidence of how well he did showcased in the pile of trash. Always check your sub trades references and insist on a flood test. How else can you be sure they did a good job? To insure the above does not happen to you in your contract with your builder include something like this "All TTMAC industry guidelines to be followed." So easy and now your general contractor or tile installer needs to find out what that is. If your lucky your team are already members and as such hold themselves to a higher standard.

If your just researching check to see who the men are typing away and answering your questions. I'm the owner of By Any Design Ltd. I work here in Vancouver. I'm insured through Willis Louie Insurance on Davie Street for $4,000,000 liability and this is my area of expertise. I'm a member of TTMAC, NKBA and NTCA - all of which can be confirmed. Who are the other's helping out? Why do they spend hours everyday?

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[dlarrivee]

Nice to see the 2lb. spray foam in a few of your pictures John.

Does evaporation ever become a concern with this coin trick?

[johnfrwhipple]

In the summer it is more of a concern and when there is a lot of air movement. This time of year I don't really set up an evaporation control but on a longer flood test with different job site conditions we do monitor and measure it with a separate dish. The coin(s) don't lie and measure the water level very accurately. I never liked the pencil mark because of the oom for error. Did it drop a 1/16"? An 1/8? So hard to tell and if is much easier calling a client and asking if my coin is 50/50 in and out of the water.

Lots of my clients are older as well and they do not want to get down on their hands and knees to check a mark.

I love the 2lb foam. I have a load in my house and still only have 3 rads of 21 running. Incredible that the home stays warm mostly from light bulbs and cooking dinner. We turn on the fireplace which makes the living room toasty for TV time and the lost heat from their heats our bedroom. I'm going to hook up these rads very soon and am getting them lined up in my garage this weekend for painting.

JW