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View Full Version : American Standard Champion Opinion and Issue



jluksic
07-29-2005, 08:22 AM
I purchased and installed an American Standard Champion this weekend. The tank had the "updated" flush/seal. I am an average handyman, able to start projects but struggle to finish correctly.

Removal of old and install of new Champion took about 30 minutes, easy.

Anyway, I 've read the comments on the AS Champion to date (mostly negative), here's mine:

1. Toilet "clunks" on flush. This is not a design flaw.

2. Incoming water seems to "turn-over" bowl contents, sometimes breaking them up - before sending down the drain.

3. Flush action is excellent.

4. Overall all grade is a strong B+. I'm sure there are better toilets but this is a good performer for $210 (Home Depot). Plus, I'd rather buy from HD/Lowes due to their generous return policies.

Now the bad:

1. AS instructions on the "tank" to "bowl" fitting are unclear. The instructions say to tighten the tank to bowl until seated. What it should say is to tighten the tank until it seats to the front of the bowl only (not rear).

As a result of my trial and error for a tight fit, I can not stop the leaking between the bowl and tank. I have tried various combinations of washers etc... but if anyone has an opinion or a sure fix for stopping tank/bowl leaks, please reply.

Terry
07-29-2005, 08:31 AM
Overall all grade is a strong B+? But can't get the tank to bowl to quit leaking?

Join the list of other complainers about the Champion (http://www.terrylove.com/wwwboard/messages2/42893.html)

The clunk on the flush "is" quite loud. The Toto Carrolton I installed yesterday was quiet in comparison.

toolaholic
07-29-2005, 08:45 AM
GIVES NEW MEANING TO THE WORD CRAPPER! :eek:

TOTO IS HARD TO BEAT!

jluksic
07-29-2005, 09:13 AM
Overall grade of B+ is based on performance of flush. I only noted the "clunk" to confirm to others that it's by design...

If I could find the Toto Drake, ADA elongated for under $250 in the Colorado Springs area, I'd buy it in a second. Money talks.

Finally, I've read different opinions on bowl/tank seal. Will someone for the record confirm that NO metal washer is need between the head bolt and rubber washer. It seems counter-intuitive NOT to use the metal washer.

Terry
07-29-2005, 09:36 AM
http://www.terrylove.com/wc/eljer/titan_tank_bolt.jpg

The rubber washer goes on the large headed side, then is dropped through the tank and through the bowl.
The metal washer goes under the bowl and then the nut.

The Toto Dalton CST734F ADA is better and I've been selling it for $194.00
Money must not talk that loud.

jluksic
07-29-2005, 09:39 AM
Thanks.

BTW - On the advice of this website, I am taking the Toto plunge and picking up a Toto Drake ADA CST744SL tomorrow morning.
Please check this thread in a few days for results.

Have a great weekend.

TOTO Drake 800 grams by Veritech, Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmuzFve6O4k)

RioHyde
07-29-2005, 03:58 PM
I too confirm for the record that no metal washer goes between the bolt head and the rubber washer.

master plumber mark
07-29-2005, 05:08 PM
TERRY...

I have not had the

pleasure of fighting this brand of toilet as of yet,


So, I am wondering , it it possible to

fix the bolts leaking by simply adding an extra nut + washer

to tighten down the bolt to the tank first????

Gerber toilets come with extra nuts and washers for this reason and have saved me countless leaks after the toilet has "settled in"

because the water cannot leak out through that first tightend bolt....


I have had to modify many other brands by adding a nut and washer
this way to make them

"submit to my will" before...



Would it also be possible to just change out the flushing mechanism

with a Fluidmaster flush assembly kit $5.00 to eliminate that aggravateing

seal inside the tank from coming loose???


just wondering about an easy fix.

Terry
07-29-2005, 06:12 PM
I think that once he removes the metal washers and just uses the rubber washer and bolt, that he will be fine.

The American Standard Champion uses a 3" flush valve using a tower that holds the drop down seal.

The 2" Fluidmaster flush valve would drop right through the hole.


http://www.terrylove.com/wc/as/champion_detail_black.jpg
Amerian Standard Champion toilet

master plumber mark
07-29-2005, 07:23 PM
thank you for the pretty picture...

I just cant wait to tangle with one of these....


I guess that I will download some specs to
get a closer look how that tower actually install
in that tank...

loooks like something very special indeed...

but it dont work

jluksic
08-01-2005, 07:56 AM
Terry and All,
I reinstalled the bowl to tank - with your recommendations NOT to use a metal washer between the bolt head and rubber washer.

PERFECT, no leak, 100% water tight.

The solution above seems counterintuitive but results don't lie.

Thanks for the advice.

I am happy with my American Standard Champion.

Dunbar Plumbing
08-02-2005, 05:38 PM
I make a point to tell as many customers NOT to buy the champion toilet; too many issues and I hear the company gives the customer a run around most times. I don't need my good name tarnished over a golf-ball swallowing mansfield flush valve copycat. No thank you. :cool:

gaw
08-24-2005, 09:47 AM
I have overcome the leaking flush valve syndrome on my American Standard toilet! I'm sure my warranty is void at this point, but at least my flusher doesn't leak anymore.

Here's how I did it (http://unitelater.com/s9y/index.php?/archives/100-American-Standard-Toilet-Conquered!.html), complete with photos.

Bottom line, I had to build a complete new flush tower using parts found
at Home Depot. The only difference is MY flush tower doesn't leak!

- - - -
Glenn
Master Procrastinator, Unite Later (http://unitelater.com/)

MG
08-24-2005, 02:35 PM
So, I am wondering , it it possible to fix the bolts leaking by simply adding an extra nut + washer to tighten down the bolt to the tank first????

Gerber toilets come with extra nuts and washers for this reason and have saved me countless leaks after the toilet has "settled in" because the water cannot leak out through that first tightend bolt....

I have had to modify many other brands by adding a nut and washer
this way to make them "submit to my will" before...


Ahh yes - a $2 or so fix that pretty darn much guarantees that the tank won't leak. Our old AS toilets had this problem. Adding that extra nut / washer combo eliminates it and doesn't get in the way of seating the tank properly. Why manufacturers do not include the extra nut / washer I have no idea. Even Toto doesn't include them (at least on the Drake I bought it doesn't).

Cal
08-25-2005, 02:00 AM
I'm not sure how many of you guys & gals have used the "Vitra" toilet but I for one am almost in love with this thing. Nice,simple ,good lines,easy install and GREAT flush! Also,some one was thinking -- The washers for the tank bolts are beveled . Things look like a rubber cone.Seat themselves and lock tight.So you don't have ALL these issues . A/S has turned to crap,,,IF it is the "American" standard them we better tighten up !

As far as I know, "Vitra" is only sold at supply houses so far.Nice,we don't have to share with every homeowner .
Cal

www.vitra.com

Cal
08-25-2005, 02:02 AM
Whoops !! Sorry ,it's

www.vitra-usa.com

jimbo
08-25-2005, 07:40 AM
Terry and All,
I reinstalled the bowl to tank - with your recommendations NOT to use a metal washer between the bolt head and rubber washer.

PERFECT, no leak, 100% water tight.

The solution above seems counterintuitive but results don't lie.

.

Without the washer, you have this: Bottom side of rubber seals against porcelain; top side of washer seals against bolt head. Results: NO path for water to get out!

Now, add the washer under the bolt head: Rubber still seals against porcelain; top of rubber seals against metal washer. BUT, nothing seals between bottom of bolt head and top of washer. Water seeps through. [In theory you could tighten enough to make a metal-to-metal seal. But with soft rubber and porcelain invloved, there is no way to make this that tight. Not even close.]