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Cookie
07-02-2009, 08:20 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090702/ap_on_go_co/us_health_care_overhaul

By RICARDO ALONSO-ZALDIVAR, Associated Press Writer Ricardo Alonso-zaldivar, Associated Press Writer Thu Jul 2, 7:03 pm ET
WASHINGTON Americans who refuse to buy affordable medical coverage could be hit with fines of more than $1,000 under a health care overhaul bill unveiled Thursday by key Senate Democrats looking to fulfill President Barack Obama's top domestic priority.
The Congressional Budget Office estimated the fines will raise around $36 billion over 10 years. Senate aides said the penalties would be modeled on the approach taken by Massachusetts, which now imposes a fine of about $1,000 a year on individuals who refuse to get coverage. Under the federal legislation, families would pay higher penalties than individuals.
In a revamped health care system envisioned by lawmakers, people would be required to carry health insurance just like motorists must get auto coverage now. The government would provide subsidies for the poor and many middle-class families, but those who still refuse to sign up would face penalties.
Called "shared responsibility payments," the fines would be set at least half the cost of basic medical coverage, according to the legislation.
In 2008, employer-provided coverage averaged $12,680 a year for a family plan, and $4,704 for individual coverage, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation's annual survey. Senate aides, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly, said the cost of the federal plan would be lower but declined to provide specifics.
The legislation would exempt certain hardship cases from fines. The fines would be collected through the income tax system.
The new proposals were released as Congress neared the end of a weeklong July 4 break, with lawmakers expected to quickly take up health care legislation when they return to Washington. With deepening divisions along partisan and ideological lines, the complex legislation faces an uncertain future.
Obama wants a bill this year that would provide coverage to the nearly 50 million Americans who lack it and reduce medical costs.
In a statement, Obama welcomed the legislation, saying it "reflects many of the principles I've laid out, such as reforms that will prohibit insurance companies from refusing coverage for people with pre-existing conditions and the concept of insurance exchanges where individuals can find affordable coverage if they lose their jobs, move or get sick."
The Senate Health Education, Labor and Pensions bill also calls for a government-run insurance option to compete with private plans as well as a $750-per-worker annual fee on larger companies that do not offer coverage to employees.
Sens. Edward M. Kennedy, D-Mass., and Christopher Dodd, D-Conn., said in a letter to colleagues that their revised plan would cost dramatically less than an earlier, incomplete proposal, and help show the way toward coverage for 97 percent of all Americans.
In a conference call with reporters, Dodd said the revised bill had brought "historic reform of health care" closer. He said the bill's public option will bring coverage and benefit decisions driven "not by what generates the biggest profits, but by what works best for American families."
The two senators said the Congressional Budget Office put the cost of the proposal at $611.4 billion over 10 years, down from $1 trillion two weeks ago.
However, the total cost of legislation will rise considerably once provisions are added to subsidize health insurance for the poor through Medicaid. Those additions, needed to ensure coverage for nearly all U.S. residents, are being handled by a separate panel, the Senate Finance Committee. Bipartisan talks on the Finance panel aim to hold the overall price tag to $1 trillion.
The Health Committee could complete its portion of the bill as soon as next week, and the presence of a government health insurance option virtually assures a party-line vote.
In the Senate, the Finance Committee version of the bill is unlikely to include a government-run insurance option. Bipartisan negotiations are centered on a proposal for a nonprofit insurance cooperative as a competitor to private companies.
Three committees are collaborating in the House on legislation expected to come to a vote by the end of July. That measure is certain to include a government-run insurance option.
At their heart, all the bills would require insurance companies to sell coverage to any applicant, without charging higher premiums for pre-existing medical conditions. The poor and some middle-class families would qualify for government subsidies to help with the cost of coverage. The government's costs would be covered by a combination of higher taxes and cuts in projected Medicare and Medicaid spending.

99k
07-03-2009, 04:05 AM
Sounds like a wonderful idea ... if you can't afford it, we'll fine you $1,000. If they just went after the illegal aliens, they would take care of a huge percentage of uninsured. Your politicians at work ... screwing something else up:rolleyes:

Ian Gills
07-03-2009, 04:13 AM
This is what happens when you keep refusing to have State-provided healthcare....crazy second-best solutions like this, trying to solve all the problems that a market "solution" in health care generates.

The Government is better at deciding what healthcare you need than you. PERIOD. Young people will decline it, forgetting that oneday they will grow old and sick. And sick people can make me sick through infectious disease if they do not get / cannot afford treatment.

So, I'll pay a little more tax to keep you healthly. And for your kids to go to school. That's just common sense. If you are healthly and your kids get better jobs then you/they will pay me back someday with their tax dollars. Healthy, clever people pay taxes. Stupid, ill people do not. And the Government has a role in making us remember that through providing these essential services.

It's not rocket science.

Cass
07-03-2009, 04:38 AM
If Obama (D) and his Congress (D) and now his fillerbuster proof Senate (D) want something they will have it...our saftey nets are gone until the next election / vote...that is unless the next election is like Irans just was...:confused: with electronic voting and a Chicago style presidency Obama may get the votes based on "Changes we can beleive in"

If anyone could name 5 government programs that were run at less of a cost than private buisness can run them I might be in favor of it but health care is just a gigantic tax and when ever they need more $$$ they will just say "in order for us to take care of you we need more $$$..."

If you think voter fraud can't happen it did way back in 1913, there is a book out called "The Law that Never Was" proving it...

http://www.thelawthatneverwas.com/new/home.asp

2 men traveled to every state and received a sealed and verified copy from the secretary of each state showing the results of the vote on the 16th Ammendment...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitut ion

guess what...it did not pass...but it is now law...and the Courts won't even allow evidence into court to show that it never passed...

We are puppets and allowed only what the politicians want until we take matters into our own hands to correct it...but I am not sure if that day will ever come...

Cass
07-03-2009, 04:48 AM
This is what happens when you keep refusing to have State-provided healthcare....crazy second-best solutions like this, trying to solve all the problems that a market "solution" in health care generates.

The Government is better at deciding what healthcare you need than you. PERIOD. Young people will decline it, forgetting that oneday they will grow old and sick. And sick people can make me sick through infectious disease if they do not get / cannot afford treatment.

So, I'll pay a little more tax to keep you healthly. And for your kids to go to school. That's just common sense. If you are healthly and your kids get better jobs then you/they will pay me back someday with their tax dollars. Healthy, clever people pay taxes. Stupid, ill people do not. And the Government has a role in making us remember that through providing these essential services.

It's not rocket science.

People from other countrys are pouring in to the US (if they can afford it) because the countrys that have health care can't provide it to the degree necessary...and the US wants to pattern it self after them :eek:...

Ian please go back to England and use their health care system...and hope you don't have a catasrrophic problem because they are now turning down people based on the cost of treatment...and hope that you don't need a treatment that you need to start next week because they might just tell you that there is a 6 month wait before you can start your life saving treatment...

And tell me just 1 US government program thet they do better and cheaper than a private buisness...

Redwood
07-03-2009, 06:43 AM
A good read for all...

http://books.google.com/books?id=wVt7VxvFyegC&lpg=PP1&dq=common%20sense%20thomas%20paine&pg=PP1

Cookie
07-03-2009, 06:48 AM
Yes, a good book. What do you think of this Red?
lol.

master plumber mark
07-03-2009, 11:25 AM
Sounds like a wonderful idea ... if you can't afford it, we'll fine you $1,000. If they just went after the illegal aliens, they would take care of a huge percentage of uninsured. Your politicians at work ... screwing something else up:rolleyes:


if they want to give everyone in the USA health care I have some great ideas..

1. everyone wanting welfare benefits, health benefits ect....

make it mandatory that they do a urine test to see if they are durg free...and they can only receive these health and welfare benefits if they can stay drug free

2. people that are destroying their own bodies with Alchol, tobacco, drugs, obesity.....and yet they expect to get free benefits... I feel that they must go "cold turkey" on everything and start a physical fitness regime to maintain good health... if they want those freebies from uncle sam... again they got to do urine and blood tests.


3.. outlaw tobacco, booze... fatty foods.... ect....
Anything that will eventually kill you and force the government to pay your your bills should not be allowed.
Or tax the living hell ou tof them to where it is too expensive to puchase...


4 all illegal immigrants shoud not even be allowed in the emergency rooms, and if they are allowed to save their lives, they immediately get deported...

master plumber mark
07-03-2009, 12:51 PM
If Obama (D) and his Congress (D) and now his fillerbuster proof Senate (D) want something they will have it...our saftey nets are gone until the next election / vote...that is unless the next election is like Irans just was...:confused: with electronic voting and a Chicago style presidency Obama may get the votes based on "Changes we can beleive in"

If anyone could name 5 government programs that were run at less of a cost than private buisness can run them I might be in favor of it but health care is just a gigantic tax and when ever they need more $$$ they will just say "in order for us to take care of you we need more $$$..."

If you think voter fraud can't happen it did way back in 1913, there is a book out called "The Law that Never Was" proving it...

http://www.thelawthatneverwas.com/new/home.asp

2 men traveled to every state and received a sealed and verified copy from the secretary of each state showing the results of the vote on the 16th Ammendment...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitut ion

guess what...it did not pass...but it is now law...and the Courts won't even allow evidence into court to show that it never passed...

We are puppets and allowed only what the politicians want until we take matters into our own hands to correct it...but I am not sure if that day will ever come...

that is a lot of good info
our country was sold down the river a long time ago..
everything is owned by people behind the scenes,
IMHO basically the Federal Reserve owns the USA

the Federal Reserve is not a government entity, its actually a "for profit bank" who has a monolpoy on printing our money out of thin air and selling it to the government... at interest......

the IRS and income tax was invented to pay the interest
on the debt the government owes to the Federal Reserve....


find out who has controlling interest in the FEDERAL RESERVE BANK
and you will know who runs our country......



here is a 3 hour movie to watch ....



This is all pretty interseting stuff if you like to see the history
on how the banks took over america. and who owns us....


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-515319560256183936&ei=G2JOSozpN42EqQLAj6yjAQ&q=the+money+masters&hl=en

http://www.veoh.com/browse/videos/category/entertainment/watch/v3133004XtAkj6r#

Ian Gills
07-03-2009, 01:06 PM
I do not understand this concept that if you get ill, you (the individual) must pay for it. If I see a stranger that is sick, I want him to be well again so he can start paying taxes. Are you guys happy to see people sick so they can't pay taxes, just because it makes you mad because you're paying for his bad back?

Why the heck do you think you pay taxes? Bridges...the ones that have been falling down? No, it's for things like health and education. The things that make a society a society.

I agree the US has the best healthcare in the world but it is also by far the most expensive. And some countries with cheaper, state-provided healthcare are catching up fast and starting to provide better treatment for some diseases than here e.g. France. So watch out.

Don't get me wrong. I have the best healthcare insurance money can buy in the US, provided by my employer. But having come from a state system I cannot believe that you guys put up with such a crazy system.

Even though my insurance is creme-de-la-creme I have still had to write to my insurer to get clarification that they would pay before I got some treatments. This is ridiculous, and you guys put up with it. And then there are the $15 co-pays. Insane. Why should you have to pay when you've already paid!

I blame the founding fathers for this and for the silly liquor rules. If I want to buy a bottle of whisky at a gas station on a Sunday morning then I should be able to do it. But oh no...

Trust me when I say immigrants do not come here for the health care or the benefits. Because there are none. People come to the US for the money and the jobs, of which there are also none at the moment which is why some of the visa quotas (from India, for example) are not being filled.

I have said it before and I will say it again. This is the best country in the world for the young, fit and clever. It is not for the old, sick and stupid. When I become old, sick and stupid, I'm taking my US pension and spending it somewhere else.

MaintenanceMan
07-03-2009, 03:02 PM
I do not understand this concept that if you get ill, you (the individual) must pay for it. If I see a stranger that is sick, I want him to be well again so he can start paying taxes.

Un-freaking-believable! It's startling what spoon fed socialism does to some people...

And the fact that you blame the founding fathers for ANYTHING, is pretty ballsy I must say.

Freedom is what this county is, or at least was, about. Not taxes, or entitlement. Not bailouts or stimulus bills. Certainly not big government or government run banks, auto companies, health care, a stifling bureaucracy or socialism.

Ian Gills
07-03-2009, 03:54 PM
If you paid no tax here I might get it. But you almost pay as much tax here as anywhere else but you don't get free health care and in some areas you have to pay private to get your kids in a good school.

That is a bummer and a bad deal. You are entitled because you pay taxes and you vote.

Freedom is about freedom of speech, association and religion. It's never been about anything else. Which, again, is why I cannot buy whisky at the gas station as the sun rises on a Sunday morning, although I am allowed to complain about it!

Cass
07-03-2009, 05:07 PM
The reason you don't understand what freedome is is because you are blind in one eye and can't see out the other...

Ian Gills
07-03-2009, 05:50 PM
I was just trying to get some debate going on this hot topic...health.

I love my life in the US and I am very privileged to be here. I have a great job, a great house and a great everything.

But I cannot help notice those less fortunate than me. And many of those were born here in America, not just immigrants. They have awful access to health and awful access to education. I live in the DC suburbs. Either the schools are good and the house prices too high, or you live in an affordable area and pay for private. My house backs onto a hospital that is facing closure because the people going there are more often than not uninsured. And for the richest country in the world, that surprises me a great deal as a visitor here. It makes me feel sad and, sometimes, guilty.

I could not have done as well as you in coping with your illness in America Cookie. I am sorry to say that. I could only have focused on getting well and would not have been able to deal with the financial pressures as well. My hat goes off to you.

Ian Gills
07-03-2009, 06:02 PM
Nobody is denied health care in Europe Cookie, and they are not in Canada either. I am sorry to say that.

The only differences here are that you pay a lot; might wait less time (life-threatening cases are seen first in Europe, here you can just turn up); and, there's more plush carpet in the surgery. Oh, and there is better parking in the US too.

Ian Gills
07-03-2009, 06:10 PM
It amazes me though, how people from other countries think we are the richest. I have a friend in New Zealand who thought that until, he met me, and then, I bursted his bubble, lol.

It is because you are so big. America has 250 million people, which is five times the population of England and the same population as Nigeria, the largest country in Africa. All driving in cars with jobs and homes.

It is just the sheer number of people not living in poverty that makes the USA quite amazing in terms of its wealth.

But on cancer in England, all my family who were diagnosed were sent to hospital the same day. You do not mess with cancer. You can wait with a hip replacement though. There, you may have to wait several months in pain, so I am not saying it's perfect....but it is free. And of course, if you cannot wait you can always pay and go private. State-run does not mean the end of private medical insurance. Just a choice, especially for those that cannot afford medical care.

Ian Gills
07-03-2009, 06:20 PM
Experimental therapies will almost certainly not be covered. But scans and bone marrow would definitely be covered (if a donor could be found).

But then, I'd doubt Aetna would be too impressed if I present them with a bill for stem cell therapy here!

A good example is IVF which I am doing at the moment. In the UK you get one go on the health service. In the US most insurance does not cover this, but mine gives me $50,000 worth of treatment (about five goes).

Remember that the costs you pay for treatment are much higher (by several times) than elsewhere in the world.

Cookie
07-03-2009, 06:40 PM
If it is a girl you got to name it Annie.

Ian Gills
07-03-2009, 06:42 PM
Thanks for the PM Cookie and the interesting article. Unfortunately, my sperm is not the problem. My count and mobility were actually "exceptional". It's the eggs which are far more tricky to fix than sperm. The role of men in reproduction is really nothing special. What needs to go on in a woman's body is pretty much rocket science.

Annie is a nice name but unfortunately the name of an ex-girlfriend which might cause some problems with my wife! ;)

master plumber mark
07-04-2009, 11:52 AM
It is just the sheer number of people not living in poverty that makes the USA quite amazing in terms of its wealth.

But on cancer in England, all my family who were diagnosed were sent to hospital the same day. You do not mess with cancer. You can wait with a hip replacement though. There, you may have to wait several months in pain, so I am not saying it's perfect....but it is free. And of course, if you cannot wait you can always pay and go private. State-run does not mean the end of private medical insurance. Just a choice, especially for those that cannot afford medical care.



Ian, dont worry, it wont be long before the sheer dead weight of everyone loading up on the health care bandwagon finally breaks the bank... and we will be a third world country... Like Nigeria...


free health care for everyone is ok, but of course it will be
a dilluted form of health care...because of the expence and sheer numbers involved.........

if you want the best , you will simply have to be rich and be able to pay for it...

that is basically the way it is all over the world...


Ian...
In England, lets say 250 years ago, what kind of health care did old King George provide to everyone that demanded it.....???

wasnt it called the Tower of London??

Cookie
07-04-2009, 12:56 PM
I found this just today,

Europe's free, state-run health care has drawbacks

As US tackles health care reform, some Europeans warn against too much government control


<LI class=byline>By Maria Cheng, AP Medical Writer
On Saturday July 4, 2009, 3:32 pm EDT
LONDON (AP) -- As President Barack Obama pushes to overhaul the American health care system, the role of government is at the heart of the debate. In Europe, free, state-run health care is a given.

The concept has been enshrined in Europe for generations. Health systems are built so inclusive that even illegal immigrants are entitled to free treatment beyond just emergency care. Europeans have some of the world's best hospitals and have made great strides in fighting problems like obesity and heart disease.
But the system is far from perfect.
In Britain, France, Switzerland and elsewhere, public health systems have become political punching bags for opposition parties, costs have skyrocketed and in some cases, patients have needlessly suffered and died.
Obama has pointedly said he does not want to bring European-style health care to the U.S. and that he intends to introduce a government-run plan to compete with private insurance, not replace it.
Critics fear Obama's reforms will lead to more government control over health care and cite problems faced by European health systems as examples of what not to do.
Other experts say Americans could learn from countries like Germany, the Netherlands and Switzerland, especially in the debate on how to reorganize health insurance.
"These countries are in some way an inspiration for our reforms," said Uwe Reinhardt, a health economist at Princeton University. "All of these countries somehow manage to assess risk and compensate for it ... we could learn from that."
Many European health officials applaud Obama's attempt to provide health care to millions more Americans, but they also advise him to proceed with caution.
"What we can be proud of in Europe is the ground rules, that everyone has the right to health care," said Jose Martin-Moreno, a health expert at the University of Valencia in Spain. "But the implementation has been difficult and one size does not fit all."
Private health care is also available in Europe, creating in some instances a two-tier system that critics say defeats the egalitarian impulse on which national systems were built.
When Britain's National Health System was founded 61 years ago, it pledged that with few exceptions, patients would not be charged for anything.
All prescription drugs are covered, and the government regularly sets health targets, like maximum waiting times in emergency rooms or for having an operation.
Critics say the policies are often driven more by politics than science. Last week, Prime Minister Gordon Brown promised that patients unable to see cancer experts within two weeks would get cash to pay for private care. Brown had previously argued against paying for private providers and some say the reversal may be a gimmick to boost his sagging popularity.
More serious problems in Britain's health care were reported last month, when cancer researchers announced that as many as 15,000 people over age 75 were dying prematurely from cancer every year. Experts said those deaths could have been avoided if those patients had been diagnosed and treated earlier.
"There is nothing inherently different about cancer in the U.S. and Britain to explain why more people are dying here," said Dr. Karol Sikora, of Cancer Partners UK.
The U.S. already spends the most worldwide on health care. According to the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development, the U.S. spent $7,290 per person in 2007, while Britain spent $2,992 and France spent $3,601.
Still, experts say that before committing the U.S. to footing the bill for universal health care, Obama should consider it has cost Europe.
A World Health Organization survey in 2000 found that France had the world's best health system. But that has come at a high price; health budgets have been in the red since 1988.
In 1996, France introduced targets for health insurance spending. But a decade later, the deficit had doubled to 49 billion euros ($69 billion).
"I would warn Americans that once the government gets its nose into health care, it's hard to stop the dangerous effects later," said Valentin Petkantchin, of the Institut Economique Molinari in France. He said many private providers have been pushed out, forcing a dependence on an overstretched public system.
Similar scenarios have been unfolding in the Netherlands and Switzerland, where everyone must buy health insurance.
"The minute you make health insurance mandatory, people start overusing it," said Dr. Alphonse Crespo, an orthopedic surgeon and research director at Switzerland's Institut Constant de Rebecque. "If I have a cold, I might go see a doctor because I am already paying a health insurance premium."
Cost-cutting has also hit Switzerland. The numbers of beds have dropped, hospitals have merged, and specialist care has become harder to find. A 2007 survey found that in some hospitals in Geneva and Lausanne, the rates of medical mistakes had jumped by up to 40 percent. Long ranked among the world's top four health systems, Switzerland dropped to 8th place in a Europe-wide survey last year.
Government influence in health care may also stifle innovation, other experts warn. Bureaucracies are slow to adopt new medical technologies. In Britain and Germany, even after new drugs are approved, access to them is complicated because independent agencies must decide if they are worth buying.
When the breast cancer drug Herceptin was proven to be effective in 1998, it was available almost immediately in the U.S. But it took another four years for the U.K. to start buying it for British breast cancer patients.
"Government control of health care is not a panacea," said Philip Stevens, of International Policy Network, a London think-tank. "The U.S. health system is a bit of a mess, but based on what's happened in some countries in Europe, I'd be nervous about recommending more government involvement."
Associated Press Writer Ricardo Alonso-Zaldivar contributed to this report from Washington.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Europes-free-staterun-health-apf-1220371928.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=main&asset=&ccode=

master plumber mark
07-04-2009, 03:51 PM
I would warn Americans that once the government gets its nose into health care, it's hard to stop the dangerous effects later," said Valentin Petkantchin, of the Institut Economique Molinari in France. He said many private providers have been pushed out, forcing a dependence on an overstretched public system.
Similar scenarios have been unfolding in the Netherlands and Switzerland, where everyone must buy health insurance.
"The minute you make health insurance mandatory, people start overusing it," said Dr. Alphonse Crespo, an orthopedic surgeon and research director at Switzerland's Institut Constant de Rebecque. "If I have a cold, I might go see a doctor because I am already paying a health insurance premium."

that is about what is going to happen here someday....

Cass
07-05-2009, 07:07 AM
I agree 100%...Government provided health care will push the ability of the private sector to come up with new cures back 50 years because there will be no / less incentive...

master plumber mark
07-05-2009, 08:49 AM
Cass....its a shame isnt it???

When you think that the only reason people care about their fellow man is when their is a profit to be made
by makeing a medicine that will save them....

or at least prolong their lives till they run out of money.....

and then they patent the drug so no one will be able
to make it for nothing and save dieing children in Africa.

is that a crime or is it simply business????.

where is the humanity???

if thier was not a profit,
then 95 % of the people involved would find other avenues to make a living and we would turn back
the clock at least 50 years.....

perhaps the government should just take over eveything
and tell doctors and everyone involved exactly what they will make every year...

take over all hospiitals and all pharmacuticles and simpy run them as .... not for profit....

but richly reward everyone working in them???


but Cass that aint gonna happen is it???

no one is going to give up control over their turf, are they??


















.

Cass
07-05-2009, 11:17 AM
I am lost mark...are you agreeing with me or disagreeing...I can't tell...

Ian Gills
07-05-2009, 01:03 PM
Well, like it or not socialized medicine is coming, because the American people want it.

That's the greatest thing about America...democracy!

And I think your grandkids will thank you for it some day. I am not allowed to vote, so I am just enjoying watching on the sidelines.

Funny really because this forum is the most "socialist" thing I have found in America. Friendly people, helping each other out. It don't get much better than this, anywhere in America or anywhere on the planet!

MaintenanceMan
07-05-2009, 01:59 PM
Well, like it or not socialized medicine is coming, because the American people want it.

That's the greatest thing about America...democracy!

And I think your grandkids will thank you for it some day. I am not allowed to vote, so I am just enjoying watching on the sidelines.


Weather we get a government run plan or not it won't be what the people want. What they say on the news is not the majority opinion. Most of us want nothing to do with government healthcare or especially the runaway deficit spending it will take to pay for it. Our kids will only have outrageous oppressive taxes and substandard healthcare to thank us for. This is an agenda pressed upon by the current administration and other socialist bureaucrats. Same story with Cap-n-Trade. It is utter idiocracy that government run healthcare is an "economic necessity". Sell it now, pay for it later, use the economy as an excuse. I pray for my kids because they will bear more of the burden for this than we will. This entire agenda is being pushed through at warp speed and no cost is too much. If people don't wake up, and soon, America and everything she stood for will be history.

Cass
07-05-2009, 02:35 PM
Well, like it or not socialized medicine is coming, because the American people want it.

That's the greatest thing about America...democracy!

And I think your grandkids will thank you for it some day. I am not allowed to vote, so I am just enjoying watching on the sidelines.

Funny really because this forum is the most "socialist" thing I have found in America. Friendly people, helping each other out. It don't get much better than this, anywhere in America or anywhere on the planet!

Ian...you show your ignorance...this forum is the furthest thing from socialism...these people are donating their time and knowledge...no one is forcing them...under socialism we would be forced to be doing this "for the good of the people"

This is pure American Helpfullness, the furthest thing on the planet from Socialism...Thats what you don't get...

Under Socialism

#1 your $$$ is taken from you whether you like it or not...

#2 you get what you get regardless of the problem...

#3 You get it when they say so not perhaps when you need it...

#4 They decide IF the treatment is affordable and IF you are now to old to spend that kind of $$$ on you...

#5 Any other guidelines they want to attach to Health Care...

Cass
07-05-2009, 02:45 PM
I am not allowed to vote,

And I am glad....

Cass
07-05-2009, 02:48 PM
That's the greatest thing about America...democracy!




Democracy is mob rule...We...incase you don't know are a Rebublic...not a Democracy

Cass
07-05-2009, 03:46 PM
One thing that will disappear is the help that private organizations give when there are natural disasters around the world...with our pockets being emptied there won't be any $$$ left to donate...no other Country, in the past, donated more than this country...