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Jon Heron
06-09-2009, 07:50 PM
Hello all,
Great looking forum here!
I have acquired a 2 tank well water Kinetico softener along with our house 3 years ago... Long story short there has been a long line of butchers "renovating" (:mad:)this old home and one of these butchers had installed this softener. The butcher also left a complete valve assembly completely disassembled in a heap in an old box I found in the basement. :)
So here is my story;
I accidentally snapped the drain barb off the softener one day while working in the pump room and lucky for me I had a spare plate in the box of parts I found so I took apart the valve, cleaned it all up and replaced the plate with the broken drain barb. I then reassembled it all, put it back into service and never thought about it again. That was back in November.
About a month ago we started noticing that the water was getting hard and we started to get large rust deposits on the tub and sinks etc. I determined that the softener is no longer regenerating/drinking in the brine even when manually turning the control dial.
Here is what I have done so far based on other posts I have found here;
1) Disassembled and cleaned out the brine pick up tube.
2) I left the pickup tube off and manually cycled the dial to see if I had any suction on the hose, no joy, just water pouring out continually. The flow did slow during the "brine-rinse" cycle but it would certainly not pick up any water.
3) I have now disassembled the valve again and made sure everything is clean and moving freely. I blew out all the orifices and the venturi with compressed air.
4) Disassembled and cleaned the gear housing and screen and closely inspected the pawls and gears, all looked good to me.

I then decided to have a good look through the box of parts and low and behold I found 4 plastic balls, 2 small blue ones and 2 bigger white ones (see pics) that I did not have in my newly reassembled valve?? :confused:
Does anyone know if these balls are part of this valve? Does anyone have an exploded view or diagram for this thing?
In the pictures the valves are in the same position that they where in when I disassembled it, do they look like they are in the right positions? Anything else I should do while I have it apart?

Any and all help is greatly appreciated!

Sincerely,
Jon Heron

Gary Slusser
06-10-2009, 09:04 AM
Balls are check valves.

I have looked for years for a parts breakdown and have never found one. No one has said they found one either. It's part of Kinetico's way of protecting their dealers from DIYers.

If you had soft water for months and then it went hard, I wouldn't think there was missing parts.

Jon Heron
06-10-2009, 10:59 AM
The check balls are located in the main base. I have had them fall out of place while reassembling the head.


Thanks a million! :D
I found the 2 pillars the blue balls sit on in the base but what about the 2 larger white balls, do you know where they belong?
One of the blue balls was floating on the top of the tower and the other one is missing?? Should I try and flush it out of the towers or just not worry about it?
Thanks again,
Jon

Jon Heron
06-10-2009, 06:36 PM
Thanks guy's!
I am going to put it back together now then and try it.
Andy,
I tried to send you a PM to see if you knew if these white balls are part of this unit but the board replied back that you are not accepting PM's.

Finest regards,
Jon

Jon Heron
06-10-2009, 06:45 PM
Also, the rust in the window is likely because the tanks have not regenerated since I "fixed it" back in November. :o
I am pretty sure I misaligned one of the blue balls when I assembled it back then...
I took apart the pickup tube and it looks pretty straightforward, there appears to be a floating ball type check in the bottom and a small rubber cylinder with a hole through it at the top above a screen? I cleaned the screen and check ball assembly... Is it worthwhile updating to the newer style? What is the advantage?
Thanks again,
Jon

Jon Heron
06-11-2009, 05:32 AM
:D Back in action! :D

Thanks for your help guys!
I had a nice soft water shower this morning reminding me of what I had been missing...
I guess the white balls where from a different machine.

Gary Slusser:

I have looked for years for a parts breakdown and have never found one. No one has said they found one either. It's part of Kinetico's way of protecting their dealers from DIYers.
Gary,
You really wont need an exploded view to rebuild one of these valve heads, they are very simply and elegantly designed. Other than the 7 piston style valves (moved by water pressure) and the gears in the top the only moving parts are the 2 blue balls and a small rocker arm that you can see in one of the pictures above.
Quite simple really, just got to pay attention to the blue balls! :rolleyes:

Thanks again all for your help!

Finest regards,
Jon

Gary Slusser
06-11-2009, 10:56 AM
Yeah 7 months or so without soft water is no fun.

The breakdown etc. wasn't for me, it was for guys like you needing or wanting to tear their Kinetico apart and put it back together correctly.

I'm told a new Kinetico brine pickup is like $85. Quite pricey compared to what it is and regular softener pickups.

Gary Slusser
06-12-2009, 07:02 AM
Looking at all the plastic parts in the pictures, knowing there are many more in the head we aren't seeing, I wonder what makes Kinetico cost so much. They use the same tanks and resins I or any other dealer uses.

Could it be it is simply to make the dealer more money?

Gary Slusser
06-12-2009, 07:52 AM
Who cares! Quite being such a dick.

I care. And a lot of people that contact me care because they have had Kinetico come out and give them a proposal that they say is ridiculously high and they ask me why that is.

Why do you care that I care and others care?

BTW, that should be a ? after Who cares, and then QUIT, not quite. And if you check the user CP, there may be an option to ignore my posts since they seem to bother you so much. Otherwise, you don't have to read them.

Jon Heron
06-12-2009, 12:24 PM
I wonder what makes Kinetico cost so much. They use the same tanks and resins I or any other dealer uses.

Could it be it is simply to make the dealer more money?
DUH?
Its called supply and demand Gary, if Kinetico cost too much money then they wouldn't be in business now would they? And yes the name of the game is to make the most money and keep the customers happy... What is the name of your game, make as little profit as possible and be regarded as a hero to your customers??
Your logic just does not make any kind of business sense...
So is your bitterness pointed at Kinetico because they cost more than your product? Or do you just feel bad for the consumer? If so DON'T because the consumer is always right and if they pick the more expensive Kinetico over your cheaper product its because they WANTED the higher end unit...
Its called CAPITALISM!
Grow up and figure it out! Your comments are juvenile and show a lack of understanding of how the world turns... At least you can spell though eh! :rolleyes:
Carry on,
Jon

Jon Heron
06-12-2009, 12:31 PM
Jon,

Let me know if they came through OK. Glad it was easy to manage.

Andy

Andy,
THANKS VERY MUCH!
I received the entire thing.
If you EVER need any electrical advice or information don't be shy!

Finest regards,
Jon Heron
PS. its still working great!

hj
06-12-2009, 12:34 PM
IF you have the only softener that "does not use electricity", have a controlled sales and servicing environment, have a huge advertising campaign, and charge a lot for it, you can sell it based on "superior" technology, but mostly it is because you have to charge a lot to pay the expenses, not build the softener.

Gary Slusser
06-12-2009, 09:03 PM
DUH?
Its called supply and demand Gary, if Kinetico cost too much money then they wouldn't be in business now would they? And yes the name of the game is to make the most money and keep the customers happy... What is the name of your game, make as little profit as possible and be regarded as a hero to your customers??
Your logic just does not make any kind of business sense...
So is your bitterness pointed at Kinetico because they cost more than your product? Or do you just feel bad for the consumer? If so DON'T because the consumer is always right and if they pick the more expensive Kinetico over your cheaper product its because they WANTED the higher end unit...
Its called CAPITALISM!
Grow up and figure it out! Your comments are juvenile and show a lack of understanding of how the world turns... At least you can spell though eh! :rolleyes:
Carry on,
Jon
Supply and demand.... really! Ok, maybe because of the fairly few Kinetico dealers.

"... to make the most money...". I don't agree. The largest, most successful and profitable retailer in the world is Wal Mart. They did not get there by charging the most for the products they sell as Kinetico dealers do. And the only parts of the softener Kinetico makes is the control valve and bypass valve, the rest is the same as I and other dealers sell. The problem with that is the Kinetico customer doesn't get a higher end unit, they get an over hyped and overpriced and very proprietary control valve that they can't get parts for anywhere except at the one'n only usually overpriced local dealer.

Also, we aren't taking about people buying a Kinetico instead of the industry standard off the shelf softeners I sell. It's the other way around, the person doesn't buy Kinetico and then contacts me, and 7-8 out of 10 buy from me.

As far as my business, I sell a lot of equipment by charging a fair price and I'm very pleased with what I make (I'm sure you'd be surprised). I've been in direct sales for 28 yrs and I'm set in my ways so I won't be changing anything, especially when it ain't broken. But thanks for your concern.

Jon Heron
06-13-2009, 06:25 AM
Forget it Gary, you dont get it. Your posts speak for themselves. No point in continuing this line of discussion...

Andy,
Thats right! All I needed was a 5/16" and a 1/4" nut driver and a little soap and water to put it back together... Not bad for a dopey sparky eh! :D
Then again unfortunately for my spare time DIY is my middle name! :)
In all seriousness though the valve is quite easy to rebuild, I was impressed at the simplicity of the design. Not needing ANY electric motors or timers to fail and or reset after a power outage make you wonder why other manufacturers wouldn't move towards the same technology...

Thanks again!
Jon

Gary Slusser
06-13-2009, 10:08 AM
Forget it Gary, you dont get it. Your posts speak for themselves. No point in continuing this line of discussion...

Andy,
Thats right! All I needed was a 5/16" and a 1/4" nut driver and a little soap and water to put it back together... Not bad for a dopey sparky eh! :D
Then again unfortunately for my spare time DIY is my middle name! :)
In all seriousness though the valve is quite easy to rebuild, I was impressed at the simplicity of the design. Not needing ANY electric motors or timers to fail and or reset after a power outage make you wonder why other manufacturers wouldn't move towards the same technology...

Thanks again!
Jon
Jon, you're right, I don't get why a bunch of blow molded plastic parts and a few gaskets cost so much.

But, I do get that it has taken you, a seasoned DIYer as you say, 7 months and posting here numerous times over a few days and receiving whatever Andy sent you or told you, along with biermech's input, before you could fix your Kinetico and you had a spare valve in a box!! And for most of the 7 months, you thought you had fixed it. LOL

Hopefully Andy told you what could be wrong that is allowing rust up in the head.

BTW, the rest of the industry doesn't go with Kinetico type water powered control valves because they don't have 1% of the problems with their electrical or electronic components that Kinetico and their dealers' salespeople claim. Or that their duped gossip repeating customers claim. And, the electronic valves have many features that water powered valves can not have.

99k
06-13-2009, 10:24 AM
Supply and demand.... really! Ok, maybe because of the fairly few Kinetico dealers.

"... to make the most money...". I don't agree. The largest, most successful and profitable retailer in the world is Wal Mart. They did not get there by charging the most for the products they sell as Kinetico dealers do.

Gary:
For the record, Walmart sucks and I refuse to shop there! If you think the ideal business model is being the cheapest, then let's look at the discount retailers and the wake of dead bodies. Hmmm ... Caldor, Bradlees, Ames, Grants, Montgomery Ward, Woolworths, should I continue or do you get the point. Never, Never compete on price only ... knowledge, service, etc gets the order. If you try to get every order (with the lowest price strategy), then you are doing something wrong. BTW, I shop at Targets and willing to spend more.

master plumber mark
06-13-2009, 12:27 PM
IF you have the only softener that "does not use electricity", have a controlled sales and servicing environment, have a huge advertising campaign, and charge a lot for it, you can sell it based on "superior" technology, but mostly it is because you have to charge a lot to pay the expenses, not build the softener.

as far as I am concerned both Kinnectico and Culligan are overpriced junk.......

The electricity factor is a "bell and whistle" that probably saves only about 2 dollars a year..
Of course they dont tell the customer how much they actually will save.....
then it would be a complete joke.





its all in the mass marketing that they do,
TV and getting their foot into the new customers home first .......
before they have a chance to cool off and weigh their optioins...


I am presently getting a flyer put together right now
to send out to people that have just bought a home.
something like Culligan and kinnectico do....

Planning to offer them a CLACK and a Rheem Pro water
heater for less than what Kinnectico will cost them alone.$2250.
...around 1999 installed for both....

I am very nterested to see if I get any takers...

Gary Slusser
06-13-2009, 03:48 PM
Gary:
For the record, Walmart sucks and I refuse to shop there! If you think the ideal business model is being the cheapest, then let's look at the discount retailers and the wake of dead bodies. Hmmm ... Caldor, Bradlees, Ames, Grants, Montgomery Ward, Woolworths, should I continue or do you get the point. Never, Never compete on price only ... knowledge, service, etc gets the order. If you try to get every order (with the lowest price strategy), then you are doing something wrong. BTW, I shop at Targets and willing to spend more.
Well you're certainly in the minority if you don't shop at Wal Mart. We do, every chance we get, we especially like Super Wal Marts.

The point is Wal Mart is the biggest and most profitable because they give their customer quality merchandise at very affordable pricing; in many cases the lowest price but that doesn't mean "the cheapest" quality.

The companies you mention didn't do that and are out of business. That's life.

Just a little while ago I sold a 2.5 cuft softener with a Clack WS-1 control to a guy with a busted down 6 yr old Hague that had Kinetico out a few days ago because his father has had a Kinetico for years and suggested them. Kinetico was way too high priced so he called Culligan out this morning and they were too high priced. So he ended up online, somehow he found my customer comments forum, read for over an hour and called me. We went 'round'n round about twin tank softeners and he was about to hang up on me but eventually he came around to understand how they work and that he has no need for one.

Now from my limited research my price is on the lower side of 'average'. We spent over an hour and a half on the phone. He learned a lot about how softeners work and the different types and correctly sizing and programming a softener and the 'why' behind all of it and salt efficiency. Neither Kinetico or Culligan gave him a 10th of the information I did. So, as I was ready to hang up and telling him to think it over and check with his CFO, He says his wife looked at my prices for a twin and a regular softener from his notes, and she didn't care which he went with and he said let's order it. As usual I did not mention Kinetico's or my competitors' prices but he said Kinetico was over $3,000.00 and Culligan IRC was like $2100. With special resin and distributor tube my delivered price was under $1375.

Someone here recently mentioned my "mobile home". The only way we can support the fulltime living in it is to buy 'cheap' at Wal Mart and make a lot of softener sales. Yes I could put softeners in the trailer. If I'm right this is in a Wal Mart parking lot.

99k
06-13-2009, 07:27 PM
Well It is a beautiful rig Gary ... in your case, I can understand your comittment to Wal-Mart since you get to park for free:D

Gary Slusser
06-13-2009, 08:11 PM
Free parking but with groceries and such plus our $4 per prescription life altering drugs we spend about $450 a month there. More if the place has fresh salmon.

Jon Heron
06-14-2009, 07:44 AM
Jon,

Am I mistaken here, didn't you put it back together and have it working without any of my assistance?

You came on this forum with a problem and clear explanation of the symptoms and subsequent procedures in correcting the issues. You have handled it in a professional and respectful way and I can respect that.

Clearly there is no need for confrontation and belligerence to garnish assistance and advice in this forum. It serves nothing and reveals much.

As for the rust in the valve, as I said, it is not serious and you have already answered the likely cause which you have corrected. Nice job.

99k, nice analogy on WalMart. I guess McDonalds has the finest cuisine and Bata makes the best footwear, right....? I can see where some would prefer WalMart, though. Any guesses?

Good luck,
Andy Christensen, CWS-II
Yep thats correct!
It never worked for the 7 months after I put it back together because I must have misaligned the blue balls. However I didn't spend any of that seven months even thinking about it as the water very gradually started getting hard, not to mention the 100 other things weighing on my mind this year....
And yes I stand by my original statement that I was impressed by this simple and elegantly designed valve. Anybody with some mechanical aptitude and a desire to repair this valve will be pleasantly surprised at how simple they are. All total I probably spent an hour or less and that includes tearing it down twice. I have spent more time on typing and posting pics in this thread then I have on the valve...
At my last house I had to rebuild my softener and it was a piece of junk. I cant remember what it was called but it had the valve assembly hanging out the back consisting of several rubber flappers held in place with little steel clips. The rubber flappers were wore and that created major water hammer during the regeneration. It also had an electronic timer for the regen cycle that consistently lost time causing it to regen during the day... Anyways I am sure that is the valve you would find at Wall Mart... Even the tank was blue :)
Jon

Gary Slusser
06-14-2009, 12:25 PM
Gary uses this forum to peddle his product. When someone mentions anything about another water treatment brand, he gets very defensive. Jon wanted help, and Gary went into attack mode.

sammy
Actually I was the first to reply to Jon Sammy. I answered his question. I guess the attack I made IYO was mentioning the lack of Kinetico in providing a manual online etc..

It happens to be true, so I don't see an attack in any way or me being defensive. Here's a copy, show me what you are talkng about.

Gary Slusser Gary Slusser is online now
Water Treatment'n Pump Guy

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Wherever I park the motorhome
Posts: 2,850
Default
Balls are check valves.

I have looked for years for a parts breakdown and have never found one. No one has said they found one either. It's part of Kinetico's way of protecting their dealers from DIYers.

If you had soft water for months and then it went hard, I wouldn't think there was missing parts.
__________________
Gary
Quality Water Associates


Quote:
Originally Posted by biermech View Post
Well Gary, let me ask you a question. Why do sell Clack units for more money than you sell Fleck unit for when you buy the Clack for less money? Remember I proved to you that I can buy a Clack cheaper than a Fleck but choose to sell Fleck. I believe it is because YOU want the highest profit you can get from a customer.[/quote]


Why won't you answer the question Gary? Is it because you are a hypocrite? You talk bad about others maximizing their profits and yet you do the same thing. Tell us why you sell the Clack for more than the Fleck but pay less for the Clack.

Biermech, I typed a reply to you last night but can't find it. I know some of your posts have been deleted but, I closed a browser window by mistake but I thought that was another reply, it may have been yours.

I sell softeners and filters with the Clack WS-1 control valve because it is the most featured and easiest control valve to repair and, out of roughly 1240 sales, I've only had 22 problems which is many fewer than when I sold Fleck all but exclusively for 18 yrs.

I have been looking for a new supplier lately and found one that I've been ordering from the last few weeks. I also contacted another and your Coast pumps; Bob Caswell Water Treatment Sales Manager Coast Pump Water Technologies, you may not know him, and I'm waiting for him to get back to me. I'm not sure they will be able to supply me, or if they will be competitive with my other two; one I've been with 5 yrs.. And the new one is preventing me from having to raise my 4 yr old prices!! Which means I should be able to make more sales when someone is buying based on price, right? Kinda like Wal Mart huh.

Anyway, let's look at your claim. You are paying $8 less for an L model 5600MM control valve than you pay for a Clack WS-1 control valve. If you bought the regular head 5600MM you should pay more than for the L model but maybe not, it doesn't make any difference. Your invoices are below although they are very hard to read without serious zooming in.

For you to claim I buy/sell Clack because I pay less for the Clack WS-1 and increase my profitability is absolutely ridiculous.

If I maximized my profit per sale, I would have raised my prices instead of eating the increases for over the last 3 yrs., especially the freight, as my wife has wanted me to; she's not in sales...

Actually, I pay slightly more for an entire 1.0 cuft softener including my addons and my unpublished 'extras', that I see you don't include, than you pay for the control valve!

You need more production to get that type discount pricing. I could help if you want any sales help.

Jon, you had an Autotrol 155 or 255 control valve on the old softener. It has 6-7 flapper discs/valves operated by a cam shaft and little SS springs. The time of day has to be reset after any power outage so since the time was off, that is your responsibility to keep it set correctly. The Clack WS-1 I sell keeps the time for up to an 8 hr outage and all the programming forever. It also has many features the Autotrol and Kinetico does not have unless you go to their new Logix timer and then it still doesn't have all the features. Any it was designed to be the easiest and fastest control to repair, by 3 ex Fleck engineers. Anyone with a pair of Channel Lock type pliers can replace all of its 5 parts and have the water back on in under 30 minutes.

Below Biermech's invoices is a picture of the parts without the turbine wheel meter assembly, and we don't count the wrench or valve body. Valve bodies don't go bad.

Gary Slusser
06-14-2009, 12:34 PM
I previewed 3 pictures, the 2 invoices and the Clack WS-1 parts and see that only the parts pic showed up, That's odd. I'll try the invoices again.

99k
06-14-2009, 01:51 PM
Gary:
I'm very curious, looking at your rig and seeing the unit/trailer being towed from behind. Do you drop ship water conditioning equipment from a distributor or are you actually building equipment while "on the road"?
Ken

Gary Slusser
06-14-2009, 06:51 PM
Gary:
I'm very curious, looking at your rig and seeing the unit/trailer being towed from behind. Do you drop ship water conditioning equipment from a distributor or are you actually building equipment while "on the road"?
Ken
Yeah that trailer is something huh. I drop ship from 2 suppliers with a combined 8 locations around the country. For 18 yrs I assembled all my equipment out of my inventory. BTW, we are always home wherever we are.

Gary Slusser
06-14-2009, 09:07 PM
As the invoice shows, I pay $410.77 for a complete softener with a Fleck 5600 meter and $387.56 for a complete Clack softener. How is that only $8.00. I've alway said I can buy a Clack cheaper. If I can do it, so can you, but you sell your Clack for higher than a Fleck. Tells me your a hypocrite based on your comments ealier in the posts.
I see $338.84 for the Clack on a 9x48 softener minus a bypass valve, and then $346.44 for the Fleck on the same 9x48 with a $36.89 bypass valve. Now as you say, that isn't an $8 difference, it is a $7.60 difference for as you call it a complete softener, which I don't.

My complete softener has a safety brine system with #500 air check, brine well and cap, salt grid, gravel underbed, bypass valve and plumbing connectors on the Clack, a coil of drain line etc. etc.. If I told you my cost, you'd be calling me a liar.

Gary Slusser
06-15-2009, 10:03 AM
What I'm showing is complete units, softener, brine tank and bypass (the bypass comes with the Clack but not the Fleck).
The whole point of this is why do talk smack about others companies when you charge more for one product than another but pay less. If you pay less the sales price should be less.
What you are showing is the 5600MM that you actually bought.

I guess they are "complete" because someone told you they are but IMO they are minimally "complete". You can't get any cheaper than what you are ordering unless you don't include a bypass valve.

What I sell is a complete softener, and it will cost you a bunch more than you are paying currently. So what do you charge for that 5600MM softener compared to my prices that you can see on my web site? If it is not substantially more than my price, you will be out of business fairly soon unless you sell 20-40 a month as I do, and even then you won't be as profitable unless you have lower expenses than I do. Which I seriously doubt even if you work from home, as I did for 18 yrs.

I am charged less for Fleck 5600s than Clack WS-1 control valves. Possibly it is the volume discount my supplier gets from Fleck and Clack compared to your supplier, I do not care, it is what it is and I can't control it.

Talk smack... I say that the Clack WS-1 is a much better valve than the 5600 or 2510 Fleck valves; even if they have the new SXT timer on them; they don't have all the features of the Clack WS-1. That is based on selling Fleck all but exclusively for 18 years and Clack and some Fleck for the last 5.5 years of my total of 23 yrs this year, and comparing the number of problems with both and how easy each is to repair when needed, and the price of the parts. They both have the same piston, seals and spacers design.

I am looking at it from a prospective customer's point of view, not the amount of money I make. I've been doing that for all but 30 years in direct sales. The person has the option of Autotrol, Fleck or Clack, which you are not giving your prospects because you say electronics are not good. You're wrong.

I set my prices based on my expenses and the gross profit I want and can still be competitive with other online dealers. I gross very little per sale compared to say you, a local dealer. I do not compete with local dealers, I compete with online dealers. Local dealers can not compete with the prices of an online dealer.

So really, you selling online or want to? Otherwise why do you care what I sell them for or how much I charge or make?

Gary Slusser
06-15-2009, 10:21 AM
What is the #500 air check and where does it go, what type media comes with your Clack setup? What are the plumbing connectors?

witch
A 500 air check brine pickup is much better than the J brine pickup Biermech uses. It goes down to the bottom of the brine/salt tank; inside the 4" brine well I use and it hangs off the bottom of the 2310 float controlled safety brine system in the brine well that I always include. It prevents salt water overflow from the salt tank if the salt tank overfills due to numerous causes. Biermech doesn't include any of that, just a lower priced J brine pickup.

So far in 1230+/- Clack sales over 5.5 yrs, I have had only 6-7 complaints of too much water in the salt tank; Fleck is much more prone to that problem than Clack.

Media in a softener is the resin. There are thee types, regular or fine mesh or SST-60. Regular mesh resin is resin like regular gasoline is regular gasoline; little to no difference from one brand to another.

Plumbing connectors... they are what are used to connect the water line PLUMBING to the control valve or bypass valve. Clack has many different types and sizes of plumbing connectors for the Clack WS-1 and 1.25 control or bypass valves. More than any other manufacturer; Fleck has none, you use threaded male or female adapters, it's your only choice.

Gary Slusser
06-15-2009, 05:48 PM
You talk about other companies as to their pricing....

All I've every said about the electronics on softeners is that I've seen the effects what moisture (salt, water) does to them.

I've seen the Eco, Sears, Culligan and Hauge units (with electronics) have problems only because of the electronics. Soon I will see Clacks with the same type electronic problem. I don't care who makes, the electronic will go before anything else. And they don't save that much money.
Yes Kinetico is way overpriced and over hyped for what you get, just the Kinetico valve and the same tanks and resins that you and I sell, and not worth but a 1/3rd of what they charge for them.

Yes as a serviceman for big box softeners for like 16 yrs, you have undoubtedly seen more problems with them than I have but, you are making a big mistake.

You are comparing Autotrol, Clack, Erie or Fleck control valves to SEARS!! and other Ecowater built poor quality excuses for softeners!!

They use cabinet models and most cover the control valve which seals it in the salt water environment of the salt tank. And you won't admit that a softener with a separate salt tank and resin tank a few feet away are not going to have the same problems. BTW, you sell a 5600 Fleck with a metal motor and metal brine and piston stems. Why aren't they having salt environment caused problems? Do you slop grease all over them? Also, real control valves have a full 5 year warranty on the electronics, SEARS! and Ecowater built brands (GE, Whirlpool, Northstar, mortonsalt.com) have 90 days. I'm not sure you can you understand why.

As to salt savings, the brand of control valve has nothing to do with it. It is a function of how much and what type of resin is used and what the salt dose lbs are set at. Am I to understand that you sell softeners and don't know that?

Gary Slusser
06-15-2009, 10:37 PM
Now tell all how you can flow more water through a 1.25" valve when you still have the same size distributor tube.
The velocity (the speed) of the water increases through the distributor tube.

srssrs
08-24-2009, 11:10 AM
Getting in late on this thread but have a question or two. I recently removed my sight glass as there was a gummy looking substance surrounding my discs and spring arms. I tried to be very careful in replacing the arms as they were but am not totally positive I have put them back correctly. It was difficult during removal as the gummy substance was congealed over them. Can anyone post a photo of what it should look like from above if they are installed correctly? The top & bottom disc will turn in one direction but it does take some strong finger pressure to turn them.

When I insert a phillips screwdriver into the center hole in the sightglass and press down & turn, should I be able to see the disc move. I should mention that I don't have the unit installed or under pressure yet.

I have also PM'd Andy CWS on this.

Thanks for any & all help.

dextersl
09-07-2009, 09:30 AM
Jon, I have a similar situation where our water has also become hard. After reading your thread I disassembled the softener valve (again) but did not see the blue balls or white balls that you and the others have spoken of. I did take the brine tube out to check the suction and did confirm that I do have suction, not sure how strong the suction is supposed to be as it seemed kind of low to me. Can you or anyone else provide a diagram that shows where these balls should go? or let me know if you have any other recommendations. My system is a KI-MOD-2061(MACH 2060S) installed in 2007 and my valve hardware looks identical to yours when disassembled.

Thanks
-dex

dextersl
09-07-2009, 01:45 PM
This is sort of a long story but here goes. About 9 months ago our water began to feel hard, and I also noticed that the salt in tank was not going down. When I manually kicked off the regeneration it still did not improve the condition of the water. We ended up calling the local Kinetico service and when they came out, they disassembled the softener control valve and we found that it was clogged with alot of tanin deposits. They then cleaned all the valve parts in muriatic acid and then put it back together. They said that we need to make sure to add Tan-X (Citric Acid) in with our salt to help keep the deposits from building up. We now add Tan-X every time we add salt and the water system has been working fine up until July when we had them come out again because my wife said the water was starting to smell.

We had the carbon material changed out since the smell is usually caused by the carbon no longer being effective. After changing out the carbon, the water gradually began to get hard and my wife noticed a smell coming back again. My wife called the rep from the local Kinetico again and they had her check the smell of the hotwater vs the cold water and found that the smell was only present when the hotwater was running. They then recommended checking the anode rod in the hotwater heater as that was the likely cause of the water smelling bad. They indicated that we could either turn our hotwater temperature up to burn off the elements that cause the smell, or manually flush our hotwater heater/water lines with bleach. We turned the hotwater heater temperature up and ran the bleach process and no longer have the smell but we still need to change our anode rod.

With all that said, before we resolved the problem with the smell I disassembled the softener control valve to make sure we did not have the deposit build up problem again and the valves looked clean. I did not see the balls when I took it apart which is why I need to know where in the assembly would they normally be located. So I put the valve back together, and I am back to square 1 with the hard water issue again. So any advice or instruction you can give us on this would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
-dex

dextersl
09-07-2009, 02:12 PM
I was wondering, does your softener have carbon in it? we have one large tank which contains the carbon and two separate smaller tanks for the softener.

If you have a tannin problem, a small amount of tannin resins can be added to the softener to remove tannins. Was tannins a known issue when you got e the softener of is this something new? I do not recall what the original analysis was when the system was installed two years ago, but after they came out earlier this year the definitely recommended that we remember to add the tan-x from now on or we would definitely have tanin build up again.

I will contact Kinetico tomorrow and see what they say.

Thanks,
-dex

TampaDutchman
09-08-2009, 10:29 AM
Dex, Andy,

I also have a mach 2061 by Kinetico. I recently disassembled and cleaned the valve due to scaling. I am connected to a well and every year or two need to have the valve descaled. I attempted to do so myself.
First, let me say i did not see/notice any blue balls so either I lost mine or possibly there has been a design change?

Now reconnected I see air bubbles at the top and it seems to continuously backwash. so I apparently did not get it back together correctly.

I will be disassembling again later this week to give it another try, but if you have any advice to offer, I would be grateful.

elphantasmo
10-21-2010, 12:36 PM
Thanks a million! :D
I found the 2 pillars the blue balls sit on in the base but what about the 2 larger white balls, do you know where they belong?
One of the blue balls was floating on the top of the tower and the other one is missing?? Should I try and flush it out of the towers or just not worry about it?
Thanks again,
Jon

did you ever find out where the white balls go? i've just stripped my knietico and the white balls fell out before i could see where they came from...

i have found some schematics from the US patents, but none mention the ball bearings;

Control valve for water softeners (1975)
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3891552.pdf

Control valve for water softeners (1981)
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4298025.pdf

Float-actuated level control valve
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4336134.pdf

Gary Slusser
10-21-2010, 06:18 PM
I believe you may find they are check ball valves and not ball bearings. And possibly the color doesn't matter and just changed over the years. Or, it may be different colors are used for different Kinetico valves.

BrianG
11-28-2010, 05:33 AM
I took head apart on my Kinetico because it wasn't cycling...wanting to clean it up...i found small yellow post just laying inside ...i haven't noticed these post in any pictures ...they have tiny little gears attached to them...

Gary Slusser
11-28-2010, 07:51 AM
That would be an axle and if it is broken off as opposed to just out of its place, then your valve is seriously busted.
and you would need a new module or whole control valve.

BrianG
12-04-2010, 09:58 AM
That would be an axle and if it is broken off as opposed to just out of its place, then your valve is seriously busted.
and you would need a new module or whole control valve.

Thanks for reply. I don't think the two yellow post are broken but when I lifted the head they fell into the top of the tank. I just didn't see where they go...it appears that they may just sit in the tank by the outlet regulating the water intake/outflow? It doesn't look like they go anywhere in the head...any insight is much appreciated ..thanks. Note, I think the system was cycling correctly found that the brine tank float was shot..styrofoam floats broken and valve not shutting off..this part is on order.

BrianG
12-04-2010, 10:04 AM
error/duplicate response

BrianG
12-04-2010, 12:01 PM
I think I might have figured it out? Could these two yellow post be what they call "check stems"? that are located on the lower valve section? If so the problem is solved....

mialynette2003
12-04-2010, 05:33 PM
They have replaced check balls. If they are not in place, the unit will not draw brine. If you look at the main base, you will see where they sit.

OKRoger
08-08-2011, 07:52 PM
I have a kinetico thats 15 yrs old and guess what? The control valve went out and the dealer here said its obsolete i need a new system at the cost of 3600. He said kinetico don't make the parts for the model 120. Kinetico says they still have parts but will not sell them to me. Well if i don't find the parts the old kinetico is being replace by another brand. The biggest shame i have ran into in a while. Any suggestions?

mialynette2003
08-09-2011, 08:45 AM
I have a supplier for Kinetico parts. E-mail with the part #'s you need and I'll let you know if I can help. affordablewtr@aol.com.

water solutions
09-08-2011, 03:17 PM
I took head apart on my Kinetico because it wasn't cycling...wanting to clean it up...i found small yellow post just laying inside ...i haven't noticed these post in any pictures ...they have tiny little gears attached to them...

Those are not axles or anything broken that is going to cost you anything, need to buy an entire vale or going for broke. They are brine flow stops and they need to be simply replaced in their holes near the edge of the level when reassembling the lowest level. New models use small balls. I actually like to posts better than the balls. The 'gears' are more like splines.

It is all quite easy to do; let me know if you need proper advice.

water solutions
09-08-2011, 03:26 PM
I have a kinetico thats 15 yrs old and guess what? The control valve went out and the dealer here said its obsolete i need a new system at the cost of 3600. He said kinetico don't make the parts for the model 120. Kinetico says they still have parts but will not sell them to me. Well if i don't find the parts the old kinetico is being replace by another brand. The biggest shame i have ran into in a while. Any suggestions?

Technically speaking, Kinetico doesn't make some parts for the obsolete 120. For example: Levels 2 and 3 were molded together and worked as long as the flow channels stayed separate. But after 30 years of service or so, some water slippage occurs and the stages don't run as they should. SOLUTION: order a newer separate levels 2 and 3 and reassemble. Also, there were bladders in the tanks that pressurized during regeneration. These are no longer available, either. These can be rebuilt (adapted) without the bladders with a little 'garage engineering'. There are a couple of other updatable parts but almost any Kinetico of any age can be put back into service---even the ancient 'blue' models.

dano1001
12-20-2011, 07:18 AM
I have been reading the posts here trying to figure out my next step in troubleshooting. I isntalled the Quad Flow kinetico system myself, bought it from a neighbor for $50. He claimed it worked fine for him, but he didnt feel the salt in the water was healthy for him. I think there is twice the salt in a can of pop, than a 16 oz glass of water. Anyway, my sytem regenerates manually just fine, but doesnt seem to cycle on its own, doesnt draw any brine either. the unit was dropped prior to install, didnt seem to hurt anything, but it did disturb some of the black pellet media. I am wondering if the "AXLES" or "BALLS" got jarred out of place, or if the media has clogged the head. I guess my next step is to disassemble the head and check it out. I called kinetico, they wanted the serial number and than they wouldnt return my calls. I guess they dont like to service the units that they dont originally sell. Any thoughts/advice?

this is a great instructional video, I will accomplish this weekend http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ul4JZyqvsyo

Gary Slusser
12-20-2011, 08:56 AM
Yes resin can get up in the head when the tank is laid down flat, or dropped. So you probably have resin in the head causing a blockage of something.

water solutions
12-20-2011, 05:02 PM
Did this softener come with a Kinetico by-pass that you are using? Are the bottom tanks larger or the same size as the top tanks? When you say you called 'kinetico', did you mean a local dealer or the manufacturer? Make sure the drain line is unobstructed and not pinched.

dano1001
12-21-2011, 07:44 PM
I called the Kinetico service center, which was identified on the sticker on the tank (placerville Ca), they asked for the serial number, then they had a service man call me, but he never returned the call after I gave him the serial number, I even called him back twice and texted him.

The bottom tanks are the same circumference but they are a bit taller than the top tanks.

I dont know about a "by-pass" I think what I have is complete, from looking at the manual

I will check the drain line, but like I said when I manually purge the system it works fine, as per instruction.

When I was carrying the unit from the back of my truck, it came apart and half of the unit fell onto my dirt driveway. It didnt hit that hard, and nothing was visabbly broken, except I noticed a small amount of the black media came out of the orifice.

I am thinking that this has obstructed the head. After I manually purged the unit, the water in the house was very salty for about half a day, then nothing.

Once again thanks to everyone for thier advice/input. I am thinking that I am glad that Kinetico decided to ignore my plead for help, I think I can easiliy fix it myself...no to find the time

Merry Christmas

water solutions
12-22-2011, 04:54 AM
When you say it came apart, did you mean the top tank separated from the bottom tank of the right tanks came apart from the left tanks. Always disconnected the sets of tanks from each other when transporting. If the joint between the upper tank and lower tank came apart, that might be damaged. The internal valve parts would not have been dislodged by dropping it as you said.

There is no upper distributor in the upper tanks so media can be spilled out when inverted. That unit comes with two different media: carbon and Macrolite. Carbon is black and flakey, Macrolite is a dark grey with a fine sand-like texture. I think you have carbon. I would replace the carbon.

mialynette2003
12-22-2011, 07:18 AM
I called the Kinetico service center, which was identified on the sticker on the tank (placerville Ca), they asked for the serial number, then they had a service man call me, but he never returned the call after I gave him the serial number, I even called him back twice and texted him.

I would call the factory and complain. This is one of the reasons I don't speak highly of Kinetico. It's BS for them to do that.

dano1001
12-22-2011, 01:48 PM
the tanks never came apart top from bottom, they just seperated at the o-ring connection.

How can I replace the carbon? where can I buy it ?
Thanks again for the great advice, Merry Christmas

dano1001
12-22-2011, 06:08 PM
I am guessing that Kinetico does this to owners that dont purchase directly from them. Its too bad, they could have made a few hundred dollars from me, but now I am committed to repairing the unit myself. I will contact thier headquarters office

Phone:1-800-944-WATER (9283)
Fax: 1-440-564-9541
Email: custserv@kinetico.com
Mailing Address:
10845 Kinsman Road
Newbury, Ohio 44065
USA

dano1001
12-22-2011, 09:15 PM
completely tore apart the control head, found two pieces of debris, one plastic chunk partially blocking an orifice, and one chunk of scale like material. I am not very confident that this caused anything. I slapped it back together , leak checked good, and I will test the water tomorrow. Maybe I have the plumbing routed wrong (black pvc tubung), I dont know. I will look at the float assy and hoses next. I have more pictures of everything I tore apart if anyone is interested149071490814909

Gary Slusser
12-23-2011, 01:11 PM
Loose plastic parts in a Kinetico valve is a bad thing and would mean you need a new whatever it is.

water solutions
12-23-2011, 02:09 PM
More pictures would be nice, The 'plastic' piece, was it a foreign piece or something that came apart in the valve, which would be quite rare. Could you take a picture of that, too? Outside of the seals, there are only three small pieces that come apart when disassembling it.

Resin beads cannot get into the head of that unit even if it was operating upside down. Something like the riser tube would have to be broken for that to happen. Understanding the equipment helps in troubling shooting.

dd1001
03-24-2012, 01:57 PM
I have the exact same dual tank kinetico unit as pictured, it does not work, disassembled the head, didnt find any of the check balls, dont know where they would go, dont know how to get them if I need them, can someone assist me? 916-316-7159 thanks



:D Back in action! :D

Thanks for your help guys!
I had a nice soft water shower this morning reminding me of what I had been missing...
I guess the white balls where from a different machine.

Gary,
You really wont need an exploded view to rebuild one of these valve heads, they are very simply and elegantly designed. Other than the 7 piston style valves (moved by water pressure) and the gears in the top the only moving parts are the 2 blue balls and a small rocker arm that you can see in one of the pictures above.
Quite simple really, just got to pay attention to the blue balls! :rolleyes:

Thanks again all for your help!

Finest regards,
Jon

mialynette2003
03-24-2012, 05:31 PM
The check balls are located between the level 5 and the main base. There are 2 towers in the main base that the check balls sit on. On the level 5, it houses the check ball seals. In later models, the check balls were replace with what looks to as a very small lawn dart.

water solutions
03-24-2012, 07:34 PM
Yes resin can get up in the head when the tank is laid down flat, or dropped. So you probably have resin in the head causing a blockage of something.

Resin cannot get up into the valve if laid down on it side. Those who understand how a Kinetico works wouldn't make this statement. It is like saying if you change the number of people using water, you would have to change the metering disc.

water solutions
03-24-2012, 07:36 PM
The check balls are located between the level 5 and the main base. There are 2 towers in the main base that the check balls sit on. On the level 5, it houses the check ball seals. In later models, the check balls were replace with what looks to as a very small lawn dart.

Actually the yellow pins were an earlier feature. All Kineticos needing a brine draw will use the check balls.

water solutions
03-24-2012, 07:39 PM
Loose plastic parts in a Kinetico valve is a bad thing and would mean you need a new whatever it is.

Needing a new "whatever it is" is inconclusive. Still waiting for it to be identified.

water solutions
03-24-2012, 07:41 PM
Either the balls fell on the floor or somewhere near by when it was disassembled or not replaced the last time it re-assembled.

ditttohead
03-24-2012, 11:03 PM
Water Solutions, thanks for the great information, I have not had many chances to work on Kineticos, but I have always admired their strong, simple design. Your replies have been extremely helpful in continuing to grow the industries knowledge of this exceptional system. In the light commercial field, a particular Kinetico dealer in the Los Angeles area was always a thorn in our side due to their staffs knowledge of commercial applications, and their high quality equipment. It was at least as good as the 9000 valve, and they were our only competition. Keep the information coming, the people who actually work in the field or have a desire to grow their knowledge truly appreciate it.

Thanks!

Gary Slusser
03-25-2012, 12:03 AM
Needing a new "whatever it is" is inconclusive. Still waiting for it to be identified.
In this case whatever it is is the lost balls, that's assuming you as a Kinetico salesman know what you're talking about.

Now why don't you answer his questions as to where he can get parts etc., or do you have more silly questions to ask him as you have the other 3-4 people that have posted in this thread with a Kinetico that didn't work?

Also, enlighten us oh great Kinetico salesman, what keeps resin from going up into the inlet if the tank is laid down, or as you said, turned upside down?

I see your good buddy is kissing up. Makes one wonder what happened in Vegas.

Gary Slusser
03-25-2012, 12:13 AM
Water Solutions, thanks for the great information, Your replies have been extremely helpful in continuing to grow the industries knowledge of this exceptional system. Keep the information coming, the people who actually work in the field or have a desire to grow their knowledge truly appreciate it.

Thanks!
LOL you've got to be kidding!! Or just getting home from a night out consuming adult beverages.

The people that posted here with Kinetico softeners that aren't working may not agree with your assessment of Water Solutions being helpful but...

What does his information do for you or other dealers/service people except show them that Kinetico is not repairable by them without them being able to get parts?

And what does that have to do with helping the owners of a Kinetico softener in this thread that aren't working?

ditttohead
03-25-2012, 01:12 AM
I will kindly ask that you refrain from unfounded personal attacks. This request will not be repeated.

water solutions
03-25-2012, 06:14 AM
completely tore apart the control head, found two pieces of debris, one plastic chunk partially blocking an orifice, and one chunk of scale like material. I am not very confident that this caused anything. I slapped it back together , leak checked good, and I will test the water tomorrow. Maybe I have the plumbing routed wrong (black pvc tubung), I dont know. I will look at the float assy and hoses next. I have more pictures of everything I tore apart if anyone is interested14908
14908
This is NOT a Kinetico water softener control valve Level 1. This must have been taken from another unit and adapted if used as a softener. So it looks like it had been previously taken apart and reassembled. I wonder what other parts are missing or out of place. I would say it is a filter unit and not a softener, therefor.....tah-da! No balls.

Dittohead, thanks. One of the objectives in this fine forum is to help people and not try to win simply by shouting the loudest. At times I come across a topic with which I am not familiar, and I try to gain from others' experiences, such as yourself. Thanks. There are few things more ignorant that an educated person speaking on a topic about which he knows nothing. And, yes, a Kinetico softener will not only work upside down (although not recommended) but upside down AND under water--completely submerged. AND, you don't need to change the disc to adjust to varying number of users. I hope new members can weed out the facts from the fantasy and all the hidden agendum.

Don't throw the wrench in the works simply because you can't work the wrench. ---grandpa

Dano, if you need more specific data and parts, contact me via PM.

Tom Sawyer
03-25-2012, 06:16 AM
There should be a sticky at the top here called "Stuff Gary does not like" then he could post his opinions one time and not have to constantly remind us all of his prejudices. It would be a pretty long list though. Terry may not have enough band width to accommodate it. LOL

We all know that to some degree Kinetco equipment is frustrating because it's very difficult to get parts or information on their stuff. That's because Kinetco decided NOT to swim around in the DIY pool. Like it or not, like their decision or not Kinetco makes some top shelf stuff that works as advertised. No, the average homeowner can not fiddle around with it and yes, it can be expensive to maintain but that in no way devalues the product. Constantly bashing them is childish and smacks of "sour grapes" BTW, the same can be said for Culligan equipment. The argument is silly. It would be like going around bashing Ferrari's because they are expensive, difficult to work on and the parts cost an arm and a leg.

mialynette2003
03-25-2012, 06:47 AM
Actually the yellow pins were an earlier feature. All Kineticos needing a brine draw will use the check balls.Andy, I went on a service call last year and the customer had what I referred to as a newer model Kinetico (the bolts holding the valve together were recessed into the level 1). That's when I found the dart looking seals which was on a softener. Is it possible Kinetico changed to the pins instead of the check balls? That's what I assumed when I saw them. I don't get a chance to work on Kineticos very often so that is why I said about the "darts".

I'm still waiting for Gary to explain what adjustment would have to be made on a Kinetico when the amount of family members change. LOL

water solutions
03-25-2012, 07:10 AM
Sorry, I stand corrected. The check stems are in the newer MACH valves and various older models. These cannot be altered with check balls because the receptor ports are shaped different. I don't know when Kinetico made the switch but I can image out why. Thanks. I like these stems more because they stay in place better when working on the valve.

Have you even taken apart the cap assembly with the pawls and discs?

mialynette2003
03-25-2012, 07:18 AM
Sorry, I stand corrected. The check stems are in the newer MACH valves and various older models. These cannot be altered with check balls because the receptor ports are shaped different. I don't know when Kinetico made the switch but I can image out why. Thanks. I like these stems more because they stay in place better when working on the valve.

Have you even taken apart the cap assembly with the pawls and discs?No. I only went into the body. I liked what I saw. Had to clean the venturi and drain flow control of debris (would not draw brine). Thanks for vast knowledge of the Kinetico valve and water treatment in general. It is always nice to have a proper debate with someone who will listen to others and "if" wrong, admit it. Thanks.

ditttohead
03-25-2012, 09:26 AM
As a professional who enjoys learning about every aspect of this exciting and difficult field, I too am interested as to why the Kinetico is so different than every other twin alternating controller on the market, including the 9100, 9000, 9500, Clack Ws1EE w/ MAV, any system 7 configuration, etc. I program these twin alternating systems all the time and have never had to take into consideration the number of people in the household. What make the Kinetico so different?

I have been reading through a lot of old posts on the Kinetic systems here, thanks for the excellent information you have shared. The valve has been evolving for years, and in my opinion, it is one of the best valves on the market. As I have said before, in the commercial field, the local Kinetico dealer gave us some serious competition.

Gary Slusser
03-25-2012, 10:16 AM
Ferrari makes most every part of their cars with the possible exception of the battery and tires. Maybe light bulbs and mufflers. And they are extremely high quality and very fast while being very compact. Not an easy thing to combine. They also take very good care of their customers no matter where in the world they are.

On the other hand, you can see the pictures in this thread, Kinetico only makes the blow molded plastic control valve, the rubber like gaskets, the plastic cross over pipes (2, usually not over 18"+/- long), the blow molded plastic tank adapter for the second tank and the plastic blow molded by pass valve.

They do not make the remaining 95+/-% of the softener; including the plastic resin, the plastic resin tanks, the plastic distributor tubes, the plastic bottom basket or any plastic top basket or the plastic salt tank and it's plastic lid, plastic brine well, plastic and foam float, plastic brine pickup tube etc. etc.. All those parts are the identical parts all independent dealers and proprietary equipment dealers sell.

And I'm not so sure they actually blow mold anything, they may have Clack or someone else do their plastic molding for all I know. Clack is huge in blow molding all kinds of things for many companies on an international basis.

So I ask you readers of this forum that come here for information, what justifies such high pricing for a Kinetico softener? I say it's the millions they pay for advertising and higher profit for their money driven dealers.

Also, corporate Kinetico will not do business with any end user customer, and that includes providing any service manual, parts breakdown or parts etc.. Everything must go through the one any only local dealer unless there isn't one, and then they may provide the name of another dealer in an adjoining territory, that may or may not help or want to service the equipment, or will charge a lot more due to the distance.

Kinetico softeners set the gallons/frequency of regeneration with a disc. Last I knew there are 6 discs. In another thread in this forum recently there was a guy that had bought a house with a Kinetico softener in it and the seller wanted $1000 to leave the softener there. The buyer wanted advice as to what to do about buying the softener. The seller had a family of 8 living there and Andy, our resident Kinetico salesman (although just the other day he denied being Andy or a Kinetico salesman), asked the guy what number disc was in the control valve.

I said the disc would probably have to be changed (adding to the $1000) because of the fewer number of people in the buyer's family and there probably would be a service call charge and a price for the disc. Andy et al say the number of people have nothing to do with a Kinetico softener...

Of course Andy et al are saying I'm wrong etc. but, if the disc isn't changed, that means the softener will be regenerating twice as frequently for the new family of 4 than it was for the old family of 8.

Andy et al must think picking at me is more important than giving honest advice here. I.E. he has made a comment that resin can not get into the Kinetico control valve even if the tank is turned upside down. I've asked him what prevents resin from going into the control valve inlet to the resin tank if upended and he won't answer that. Resin is very teeny tiny beads usually smaller than 1/16th inch in diameter.

Also, I, many other dealers and dittohead! say that there is no advantage for most homeowners by having a twin tank type softener, evewn with soft water regeneration or upflow counter-current brining....

Kinetico and their dealers and their sales force say everyone should have a twin tank Kinetico and run down all other types of softeners except when a prospective customer refuses to pay their high prices for one. Then many Kinetico dealers sell the same thing as independent dealers do.

Gary Slusser
03-25-2012, 10:24 AM
As a professional who enjoys learning about every aspect of this exciting and difficult field, I too am interested as to why the Kinetico is so different than every other twin alternating controller on the market, including the 9100, 9000, 9500, Clack Ws1EE w/ MAV, any system 7 configuration, etc. I program these twin alternating systems all the time and have never had to take into consideration the number of people in the household. What make the Kinetico so different?

I have been reading through a lot of old posts on the Kinetic systems here, thanks for the excellent information you have shared. The valve has been evolving for years, and in my opinion, it is one of the best valves on the market. As I have said before, in the commercial field, the local Kinetico dealer gave us some serious competition.
Based on your extensive experience with all control valves, what IYO are the not so good control valves still on the market today?

mialynette2003
03-25-2012, 11:20 AM
Kinetico softeners set the gallons/frequency of regeneration with a disc. Last I knew there are 6 discs. In another thread in this forum recently there was a guy that had bought a house with a Kinetico softener in it and the seller wanted $1000 to leave the softener there. The buyer wanted advice as to what to do about buying the softener. The seller had a family of 8 living there and Andy, our resident Kinetico salesman (although just the other day he denied being Andy or a Kinetico salesman), asked the guy what number disc was in the control valve.

I said the disc would probably have to be changed (adding to the $1000) because of the fewer number of people in the buyer's family and there probably would be a service call charge and a price for the disc. Andy et al say the number of people have nothing to do with a Kinetico softener...

Of course Andy et al are saying I'm wrong etc. but, if the disc isn't changed, that means the softener will be regenerating twice as frequently for the new family of 4 than it was for the old family of 8.

Making statements like this show your lack of knowledge of the Kinetico unit. It does not matter if 1 person or 10 people are in the family, the disc would be the same. And there are more discs than just 6. There are 8 unless Kinetico has increased the number since 1992 which I doubt. So instead of berating someone when you have little knowledge of the product they prefer, why don't you just sit back, listen and stop giving advise you are wrong about.

Tom Sawyer
03-25-2012, 11:47 AM
Ferrari makes most every part of their cars with the possible exception of the battery and tires. Maybe light bulbs and mufflers. And they are extremely high quality and very fast while being very compact. Not an easy thing to combine. They also take very good care of their customers no matter where in the world they are.

On the other hand, you can see the pictures in this thread, Kinetico only makes the blow molded plastic control valve, the rubber like gaskets, the plastic cross over pipes (2, usually not over 18"+/- long), the blow molded plastic tank adapter for the second tank and the plastic blow molded by pass valve.

They do not make the remaining 95+/-% of the softener; including the plastic resin, the plastic resin tanks, the plastic distributor tubes, the plastic bottom basket or any plastic top basket or the plastic salt tank and it's plastic lid, plastic brine well, plastic and foam float, plastic brine pickup tube etc. etc.. All those parts are the identical parts all independent dealers and proprietary equipment dealers sell.

And I'm not so sure they actually blow mold anything, they may have Clack or someone else do their plastic molding for all I know. Clack is huge in blow molding all kinds of things for many companies on an international basis.

So I ask you readers of this forum that come here for information, what justifies such high pricing for a Kinetico softener? I say it's the millions they pay for advertising and higher profit for their money driven dealers.

Also, corporate Kinetico will not do business with any end user customer, and that includes providing any service manual, parts breakdown or parts etc.. Everything must go through the one any only local dealer unless there isn't one, and then they may provide the name of another dealer in an adjoining territory, that may or may not help or want to service the equipment, or will charge a lot more due to the distance.

Kinetico softeners set the gallons/frequency of regeneration with a disc. Last I knew there are 6 discs. In another thread in this forum recently there was a guy that had bought a house with a Kinetico softener in it and the seller wanted $1000 to leave the softener there. The buyer wanted advice as to what to do about buying the softener. The seller had a family of 8 living there and Andy, our resident Kinetico salesman (although just the other day he denied being Andy or a Kinetico salesman), asked the guy what number disc was in the control valve.

I said the disc would probably have to be changed (adding to the $1000) because of the fewer number of people in the buyer's family and there probably would be a service call charge and a price for the disc. Andy et al say the number of people have nothing to do with a Kinetico softener...

Of course Andy et al are saying I'm wrong etc. but, if the disc isn't changed, that means the softener will be regenerating twice as frequently for the new family of 4 than it was for the old family of 8.

Andy et al must think picking at me is more important than giving honest advice here. I.E. he has made a comment that resin can not get into the Kinetico control valve even if the tank is turned upside down. I've asked him what prevents resin from going into the control valve inlet to the resin tank if upended and he won't answer that. Resin is very teeny tiny beads usually smaller than 1/16th inch in diameter.

Also, I, many other dealers and dittohead! say that there is no advantage for most homeowners by having a twin tank type softener, evewn with soft water regeneration or upflow counter-current brining....

Kinetico and their dealers and their sales force say everyone should have a twin tank Kinetico and run down all other types of softeners except when a prospective customer refuses to pay their high prices for one. Then many Kinetico dealers sell the same thing as independent dealers do.


What What What.........

ditttohead
03-25-2012, 02:48 PM
A twin tank shoud never be used residentially??? Funny, I sell hundred a year for that application. I suppose they should not be used commercially either. Wow, the lack of real world applications and installations experience shines through sometimes. I guess the Kinetico should be fixed with Duct tape as well.

Riddle me this, size a softener for this application. I will give you the answer to make it simple. A Kinetico or 9100SXT would be the right answer but...

Real world application, not all that uncommon. Norco California, 80 Grains hardness, family of 8, regular size 2 bathroom house with 1" main line.

Reminder, a single tank system needs to maintain efficiency, so it should not regenerate any more often than every 5-8 days.

A little cheat that can be used, though its effectiveness is still up in the air, a variable brining system can also be used but these typically will regenerate with a little extra salt every time, and they will do a double salt regeneration every tenth regeneration. Efficiencies are no where near where they could be yet.

Gary Slusser
03-25-2012, 07:30 PM
Yes I was wrong about there being 6 discs, there are 8.

I am right that the disc sets the number of gallons between regenerations. And the compensated hardness is used to determine what disc is used. If that changes more than 2-3 gpg, because of the hardness or iron changing, you need a different disc or you are going to get hardness through the softener. Kinetico used to have a float system in the salt tank that tabs or pieces were broken off to set the number of lbs of salt used, and if you needed to change the salt does you may need a new one.

The formatting doesn't read well but I can't get it any better.

Disc Selection
(Compensated Hardness*)

Setting Capacity Efficiency Dosing Meter Disc# 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
** 2.7 pounds 12481 gr. 4622 gr./lb. 3.9 lbs./ft³ 3 6 9 11 14 17 19 22
4.0 pounds 15813 gr. 3953 gr./lb. 5.7 lbs./ft³ 4 7 11 15 18 21 25 28
4.4 pounds 16630 gr. 3780 gr./lb. 6.3 lbs./ft³ 4 8 12 16 19 23 26 30

Gallons/Regeneration: 3171 1586 1057 793 634 529 453 396

**Settings certified by NSF and or WQA *Compensated hardness in gpg = Hardness + (3 x Fe in mg/l)

water solutions
06-10-2012, 08:35 AM
LOL you've got to be kidding!! Or just getting home from a night out consuming adult beverages.



I am having a hard time understanding why Gary Slusser needs to make rude personal remarks about other members. I don't think personal attacks help anyone.

IronManganeseNE
01-17-2013, 12:05 PM
***Starting new thread "Won't stop regenerating..." - please disregard this post. Excuse the confusion/difficulty - I'm obviously new to this!
Please tell me if this isn't the place for my question, and where I should post it -
Is it practical/easy to open the head and correct this? My Kinetico 2100 FOD dual tank filter won't stop regenerating. A rust film on the disk keeps me from seeing where the indicator is in the cycle. Push&Turn, I can feel minor clicks and the head switches to and from Regen and Purge but water never stops flowing water unless I bypass the filter system to cut off H2O pressure. Any help appreciated!***