Did I pay too much?

[swvalley]

I apologize if this is not the appropriate place to ask this question...

I just paid $450 for someone to install a WC Flange and my existing toilet. Did I get taken to the cleaners, or is this a normal charge? I'm in Redmond, WA. (I don't know how the market bears on pricing).

[hj]

Buyer's remorse can be painful, but we cannot give an answer, because we do not know the prevailing wages in your area, exactly what had to be done, and whether the plumber was a competent craftsman or took longer to do the job because he was unfamiliar with the installation.

[toolaholic]

did he open up the ceiling below and use a snap cutter to cut sast iron pipe?
did he crawl 35 ft through rat droppings ect.?
he has travel time and much overhead. i was taught small jobs are worth 3 times hourly rate. you did ok be glad your problem is fixed!

[swvalley]

:) The toilet was removed on Monday to install a new vinyl floor. The WC Flange came off with the toilet and the floor guys couldn't put it back, so we called the plumber. He had glue the new flange on, and carry the toilet 15 feet to install it on the exsisting hole in the floor. He did have to saw a little to secure the flange to the pipe, but no, he didn't have to do any serious labor beyond the norm. I am happy to have the work done, and it is a bit of buyers remorse, but 4-fiddy seems steep. Maybe I should trade in my teaching certificate and find out how to be a plumber... on second thought that's a job for people with much more skill than I have.

[Terry]

Careful there.

Comparing jobs is never easy.

Some people will say, that there are popular jobs that more would like to do, based on the satisfaction it brings.
High satisfaction, can mean more willing to do it for less pay.
Teaching and some of the arts are like this.

There are other jobs that people wouldn't do unless you paid them well.
Less job satisfaction, demands more compensation.
Plumbing is one of them.
But even though many wouldn't like to do the work, it's still not one of the higher paying jobs.
Plumbing did pay about three times more than what I did before.
I would have loved doing the old job though. I just couldn't afford it.
Plumbing takes a bigger toll on my body and mind than the other job did.
And it's not something you brag about.
I think a good plumber is worth quite a bit.

My daughter is a teacher and my oldest son works with me plumbing.
Though his other job is in the arts.
I think he's going to quit plumbing to pursue that.
The movie is being delayed a bit, they're casting for it now.
It seems they're flying him to Miami at the end of August for P-Diddy's party after the MVA (Music Video Awards) to meet some people.
Hey, Any good plumbers out there looking for work?
I think I'm going to be losing him.

[RioHyde]

Sounds like a very reasonable price to me.

[master plumber mark]

450 seems a litle bit high, it depends on how long
he was there and it sounds like he made another trip
back out too so just add up the time

then just try to get over it...
you can always call the guy up and queston his bill

I get that all the time... he might give you back 50-100 bucks
if you whine enough and he is a good member of the BBB


-------------------------------------------------------------------


Terry , your looking for a good plumber.


I am just wondering what the pay scale in Seattle is these days for

journeymen plumbers, experineced and

clean looking with no ass crack showing??


dont get me started...

[plumber1]

I'm with you smvalley. I'll bet he wasn't there two hours. How much overhead is there to be paid for. I guess its whatever the traffic will bare. Next time ask people in your area who to call. Ask what their rates are and call around to get recomendations of who to call.

[plumguy]

Did you agree to the price? I'm just wondering if it was flate rate because it sure sounds like it.
Flate rate is fairly new to this industry as compared to the automotive repair industry. Example, you need an alternator replaced.. the mechanics book says for you're particular car it is 2.5 hours labor and he multiplies that by his flate hourly rate to come up with a price. Now some mechanics can whip that part in... in about 20 minutes and some it may take them 1 1/2 hours. Do you think that the mechanic that did it in twenty minutes should be penalized or scutinized for his effeiciency?? Do you think the guy who did it in 1 1/2 hours deserves the money because maybe he is a slow worker?? Because that would mean that the 20 minute install was a ripoff and the 1 1/2 hour install can be justified!! I can't believe the plumbers above think this way. So, if they charged by the hour the fast plumber loses?!?!

That is the biggest problem with plumber's introducing flate rate to their customers. But, when some serious number crunching is done they soon realize that they are not making any money and either need to increase their hourly rate or change to flate rate!!! If we would compare our industry to others then we would'nt feel so guilty! Plus, we come to the customer!! Customers have to bring their problems to the mechanic and if they can't... they get charged for a tow! Plus, if you don't pay you don't get you're car!!!

For the plumbers who think it is expensive, do you think you are making a good living? Can you afford health insurance for you and you're family? How new is you're truck? How is you're retirement portfolio? ETC. ETC.

As previously stated by Terry this business takes a toll on you're body and mind and you had better make sure you are being compensated and not living on the rumor that "plumbers make a lot of money" !!! It bothers me when plumbers will pick on another plumbers price when you really don't know anything about his/her cost of doing business. I'll bet you they have the above benefits!!

By the way I did'nt mean to single out auto mechanics but it is a good example and I can't recall any in this area who have not done well!

Sorry to ramble on but it is just my two cents!!

[hj]

In the case of auto mechanics, someone sat down and figured out how long it will take to remove two bolts and then install the new piece. And every car is exactly the same. I don't know anyone who had sat down and figured out how long it takes to replace a flange, especially when every one could be different.

[plumguy]

Well, maybe it's time someone sat down and figured it out! Taking into consideration that not all plumbers (speed) are the same!

[Kristi]

... and it's the same as with new fixtures, cars, what-have-you: you get what you pay for. Cheaper is rarely, if ever better, and I personally think that $450 sounds reasonable! Although I am in Canada, lol...

Why should it be worked out? How can you possibly project and standardize what is going to be under that floor/toilet, or behind that wall/cabinet/shower? It's like playing the lotto every time... oh I chipped up this tile and look - there's water underneath it!

SW, if you're trading in your teaching credentials for plumbing, be prepared for starting at the bottom! YEARS of digging trenches and apprentice style manual labour... but it sure is worth all those years later when you're out on your own.

PS. careful Terry, you're going to get a flood of resume's coming in! Too bad I'm in the other Vancouver... ;)

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Sounds like you became victim of the ole saying, "Get in. Get out. Charge as much as you can because you are never coming back."

[hj]

YOu can take into consideration not every plumber works at the same speed, but then you have to factor in that every job will be different. The flat rates have to consider that every job is going to be difficult, since they do not have any latitude for adjustment, especially since their selling point is that they can quote a "fixed" price before starting the job. If the job turns out to be one of those "impossible" ones, then the FR'er takes a bath and the homeowner gets a bargain, but the average job will be an "easy" one so the homeowner overpays, and the "mechanic" makes a good profit.

[thezster]

This entire thread makes me so glad I'm a reasonably competent DIYer. I had no idea of "the going rate"..... not having had to call a plumber for service in 20+ years. While I agree that skills are worth paying for - $450 for $5.00 in parts and a couple hours work seems a tad steep.

Then again - I've got basic skills - and an awesome web site to go to for advice....

[RioHyde]

Once again, I'm going to say that the price sounds pretty reasonable to me. Without being there to know what was involved in replacing the flange its rather difficult to call the price into question. I've had customers who thought I did something "quick and simple" when in reality there was alot more involved than the customer understood (until explained 3 or 4 or 5 or 6,,,,, times).

[hj]

Usually if they do not "get it" by the second or third time, they either are not interested in getting it, or don't want to "get it" but want a discount on the bill, and explaining it up to six times is not going to change their minds.

[Cal]

This Flate Rate pricing thing has me a little torn too.Yes ,I would make a lot more money flat rating.No, I don't think it is resonable in a lot of cases.
$ 450. for a pvc flange and toilet re-set ?? IF it was that simple then it seems pretty high ! HOWEVER... Why is it o.k. for a lawyer to charge $400 per hour or a kid doctor to charge $100+ for 2 MINUTES just to LOOK in your kid's ear ??!!
Are we not highly trained , VERY needed & dedicated professionals ? I mean COME ON ,,,,any plumber out there,,,think back on your apprentice years. We ALL did things that were enough to " Make a Billy Goat puke!" Yes that was the way it was it it made all of us better for it. Should we not be compensated just because we don't wear a fancy suit/tie !!??
Sorry for the speech,,it just burns my ass crack when we are treated like a "sub-culture" till we are needed .

Cal

[RioHyde]

Thank you Cal.....exactly how I feel, but couldnt have expressed it any better.

[Mad Plumber]

I think it's fine what he paid. Me? I'd rather be fishin sumtimes.

It did seem a kinda simple job for taht. Wen I'm donin stuf like that, I seem to do it fer less.

I dont like talking money thouh. Makes me think of working agin.
Wher's my fishin rod woman?
Hey now, don't be torowing taht thing at me!
See ya, goin fishin.

[alhurley]

reminds me of the old story of the doctor whose hot water tank goes out in his house on Sunday morning. Calls his plumber and is told he'll be over Monday morning as he is not available today. Doctor is adamant and is told plumber will come over later in the day for premium rate. Doctor agrees. Plumber is interrupted during morning golf game and goes to doctor's house. Looks around hot water tank, tops a few places with pipe wrench - hot water starts flowing. Total time on job - 5 minutes. Doctor gets bill for $100 a few days later and is outraged - "that's more than my rate (per hour)!!" Calls plumber and insists on itemized bill - "how dare you charge me $100 to bang on my tank for 5 minutes!" Doctor gets itemized bill: Banging on water heater: $ 5.00; Knowing where to bang: $95.00

[hj]

My itemized bill.
Tapping water heater .05
Service charge 0 to 60 minutes including travel time. $135.00

[rldev]

This Flate Rate pricing thing has me a little torn too.Yes ,I would make a lot more money flat rating.No, I don't think it is resonable in a lot of cases.
$ 450. for a pvc flange and toilet re-set ?? IF it was that simple then it seems pretty high ! HOWEVER... Why is it o.k. for a lawyer to charge $400 per hour or a kid doctor to charge $100+ for 2 MINUTES just to LOOK in your kid's ear ??!!
Are we not highly trained , VERY needed & dedicated professionals ? I mean COME ON ,,,,any plumber out there,,,think back on your apprentice years. We ALL did things that were enough to " Make a Billy Goat puke!" Yes that was the way it was it it made all of us better for it. Should we not be compensated just because we don't wear a fancy suit/tie !!??
Sorry for the speech,,it just burns my ass crack when we are treated like a "sub-culture" till we are needed .

Cal


Sorry, but a lot more is required to be a Doctor or Lawyer. I mean no disrespect to the profession, but I have plumbers and electrcians in my area that charge like lawyers:) If you want to charge $150 an hour, show me your master plumbing certification :)

And if your are really being honest, $450 to glue a flange and place a toilet on it is bit much. Remember the toilet was removed, so the plumber should have known what was entailed.

[alhurley]

....And if your are really being honest, $450 to glue a flange and place a toilet on it is bit much. Remember the toilet was removed, so the plumber should have known what was entailed.... interesting point about the toilet - did the guy use a "fixed price" that assumed a toilet move?

often it pays to ask just what is involved in the job, especially if you are doing some of the surrounding work yourself. A couple of years ago we decided to add new windows to the remodeling project and started pricing. One place had a "home show special" that included "free" installation, but not surprisingly the bottom lines were about the same. Feeling like I was being had on the install (and being a fearless DIYer) I had my wife call the place with the windows we liked and get a cash-n-carry price. The idea was I'd get one and try it and go from there. Well, the sales guy got curious and asked my wife a few questions about the project. When she explained we were doing all the drywall repair anyway, he said "OH, that's different. I gave you a 'remodel' price. If all I have to do is set the window in the opening it's 'new construction." DUH. Price went from about $300 per to about $65. And they even took the old ones. Needless to say they got the job, and did it well. :)

-art-

[Cal]

Sorry, but a lot more is required to be a Doctor or Lawyer. I mean no disrespect to the profession, but I have plumbers and electrcians in my area that charge like lawyers:) If you want to charge $150 an hour, show me your master plumbing certification :)

And if your are really being honest, $450 to glue a flange and place a toilet on it is bit much. Remember the toilet was removed, so the plumber should have known what was entailed.


I agree that $450 sounds quite high . Am NOT trying to belittle Doc/ Lawyers yet WHY are their rates o.k to not question. ?? Just pay their bill because ," That's the going rate and that's just how it is." I just think that we , MASTER PLUMBERS /Buisness owners should be allowed in on that thought process.

[rldev]

It is absolutely right to question their bills. Docs and Lawyers can be quite outrageous. However, law school and medical school costs a ton of money. Someone has got to pay for those loans:)

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Plumbers are HEALTH OCCUPATIONAL WORKERS. What is the first thing that the hurricane has posed as a serious threat? No fresh drinking water and no sewage. Both pin back to plumbers and what they do on a daily basis. They have to evacuate the superdome down there because the bathrooms are literally swimming in feces and urine. I certainly wouldn't want to be the plumber that has to deal with that mess. But if it wasn't for plumbers people would still be throwing their ****pots out in the alley ways like they did in Rome. I think the average life span back then was 34? I think I am going to charge more as a plumber after reading this filth about plumbers charging too much. Look out......I'm coming to a neighborhood near you and my charges stand.....FIRM. Anything after 6 pm I get 3 figures an hour....no one complains, that is the way it is. :p

[Terry]

Doctors can charge what they will, and plumbers will too.
I don't expect any plumber to value themselves less than anyone else.
It's like RUGGED says, when you are used to clean water and very little spread of disease, you come to take what plumbers do for granted.
Plumbing is what seperates the US from the third world countries.

[hj]

I go to six figures at 4:30, you are too generous.

[rldev]

Doctors can charge what they will, and plumbers will too.
I don't expect any plumber to value themselves less than anyone else.
It's like RUGGED says, when you are used to clean water and very little spread of disease, you come to take what plumbers do for granted.
Plumbing is what seperates the US from the third world countries.

What does "I don't expect any plumber to value themselves less than anyone else. " mean?

I have plenty of respect for what plumbers do. Everybody has a job to do and every job is important. The market will determine prices, but the average plumber is not going to make more money then a chemical engineer working at DuPont. I'm sure the guy who just payed $450 will not be running back to that plumber.

Tell me, what would you charge for a flate rate for the entire day. 8 hours?
Do you do this? over $1000?

[Dunbar Plumbing]

What does a chemical engineer from Dupont have any relevance to what plumbers charge? The value of a plumber carries weight over a chemical engineer because we are the backbone of society that allows potable water to be what it is, keeping waste where it belongs. Just because a few weekend DIY warriors think plumbing is so easy, the field of plumbing is quite large and minimizes the capacity of a chemical engineer does at Dupont. Flat rating a day's work would end up being over a grand most likely. People can complain all they want about what plumbers charge but in the end we charge what needs to be charged and if you think working with fecal matter of any type is "simple"......you need to reconsider your thinking. One scratch of the finger replacing a wax ring on a toilet could lead to hepatitis, but I bet you don't think that replacing a toilet is a big issue is it. Pfffffffft! We endanger our lives everyday dealing with the nasty stuff that people are used to flushing down the drain or watching it drain out of a sink. We offer the same strongholds as doctors and nurses in the medical fields. WE ARE HEALTH OCCUPATIONAL WORKERS.

[rldev]

What does it have to do with it? Supply and Demand. There is more of you, less of them, simple as that. Now if you were a chief plumbing engineer for a major plumbing firm that does say Oil rigs, giant pipe lines, etc well that would be different wouldn't it:)

Again, I haven't seen one person here, including myself take for granted what plumbers do. Somone asked a question of what they thought a fair price was for replacing a toilet and fixing loose flange. Some agreed and some did not. Not such a big deal. It's just when people start charging over a hundred thirty dollars an hour(no matter what their field), I want to see some qualifications. And if I am paying someone over $1000 a day I wan't to see more then just a regular license. I agree DYI plumbing is easy until you have some serious problems.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

I have nothing more than a Master's license in one state which I reside in. And if I had a customer that wanted more than what I needed to do the job, I would refer them to another plumber since I know that the customer is being unreasonable and probably treats most service providers the same way. That is your choice though. I can prequalify a customer quickly on the phone just solely by the questions asked to me. It's better to avoid any confrontation in such a way. I just hang up and never show up. :p I respect my customers and I never seem to have issues with my charges. Like I stated on some thread here on this site I get 3 figures after 6 pm and my method of operation is almost unmatched. I know this (can't always speak for my employees) because of the referrals and the mentions of certain things I do that sets me apart from the rest. There are 976 plumbers in my area and there seems to be no issues of supply and demand; we are all charging mostly the same + or - $25 fluctuation. Where you have a legit gripe is when a plumber...or so called plumber or "hack" comes in, charges a fortune and you find out the work is incorrect. That, is justified cause to raise **** about. I understand that people do not like to spend money, I am in that same very boat. But sometimes I think plumbers charge exuberant prices to "certain" customers just because they have qualified them as stubborn or unreasonable. This way the money constitutes the aggravation dealing with them. Lawyers have been doing this for a loooooooooooooooooooooong time. I did a job @ 1:00 am the morning of Labor day, charged $130/hour and the old feller was so thankful for me to be there, fixed the problem (kitchen sink clog caused by 2 tenants above) and not one time did he ever ask for anything other than a bill. $$$

[Gary Slusser]

The $450 for a flange, and $130/hr for unclogging a sink sounds as if it's all about the money, and not so much about serving the customer. That's like the water treatment industry where there are some dealers selling softeners for $4000-$7000 that other local dealers would have charged $1250 for the same thing. The first type is a blight on the industry. Then comes an internet dealer that sells the same thing or better than either of the other two for $800 delivered and both of the local guys get real upset and complain. Otherwise I'd think a Master plumber with employees would have one scheduled for on call weekend and holidays.

Gary
Quality Water Associates

[Kristi]

rldev, you can request someone's qualifications regardless of their hourly rate, but let it be known that $130/hr is a reasonable rate for the services being offered. Dr's and Lawyers have years of schooling to pay for, but you're paying for our/plumbers' experience, knowledge, and resourcefulness in how to handle a variety of situations under the gun.
In reference to the oil/gas field, I've been there (as the only woman pipefitter, let me know if you know another!) and let me tell you, they pay $1000/day without a second thought... it has everything to do with your experience, willingness to relocate, and acceptance of instability! My tasks as a pipefitter were mind-numbingly repetitive and for 14-16 hours a day during shutdown... great money, too hard of work, and much less gratifying that the far more interesting and better money you get for flexing your plumbing knowledge on the endless number of crisies out there.... $1000/day? We're worth it! The state of Louisiana sure could use plumbers more than anything right now...
Did I go off on another tangent again? Sorry guys... :)

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Well that is cool to know that you're a female plumber. I guess I should of figured that out by your avatar and name......DUH. It's always good to see that it is not only a man's job to do plumbing. I had a friend years ago that would get his wife to help set the fixtures on all of his finishes. She was damn good too! I don't think there is enough money for me to go to La........talk about infectious disease and airborne bacteria......sheeeeesh! I feel sorry for those who have no choice in the matter. They do say that over time that plumbers do build an immunity by being around the nasty stuff. I think it is just luck most times. I try not to do too much drain cleaning. Drain stack replacements I kinda shun away from now. It was great getting dirty back in the day but now I look at it from a hazard point of view. What we really do is hazard pay in a respect, along with being around it so much.

[rldev]

Hey a crisis is certainly different then just realligning pipes in a bathroom. Crisis management and resolution is a different matter. Rugged, do all licensed plumbers have Masters certification?

However I have a hard time paying $3000 for a plumber to move a 2 water supply lines, a shower drain 6 inches and a toilet drain 10 inches in a 8 x 6 bathroom that will be gutted(basement has fully exposed access to pipes). This is 1.5 days of work at most. Then again, everyone asks for the world where I live.

As for NO, I wouldn't want to be on the plumbing crews there.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

I cannot speak for other plumbers on how many have Master's licenses that actually do the work. I do but not as much as I did at one time. Young and dumb makes you old and smart quick. ;) Most are but that doesn't mean that the master plumber comes to your door to do the work. The larger the company the bigger chance your plumber that comes to the door is unlicensed even as a journeyman even. In essence that is not good; you naturally want the best man to do the best job with the best credentials. I know of a company in the area that is testing backflows and putting in water heaters for a big outfit with not even a journeyman plumber in the service division, not even a backflow license in the state he is testing. How do they get by with it? I wish I knew. It just happens that way. I feel your pain in respect to your situation without being bullish because I was at the mercy of some tile guys recently and what they charged was $5000, the job turned out beautiful. It was worth every nickel spent because there are no problems, the accuracy was flawless, and I know that the finished product is problem free. I couldn't tell you what they made an hour but I know the materials was probably no more than $1500. They have an excellent reputation with no nonsense. People do pay extra to have that peace of mind. The very reason I did to make sure tiles weren't going to fall off or cracking or angled grout lines.

[sulconst2]

Hey a crisis is certainly different then just realligning pipes in a bathroom. Crisis management and resolution is a different matter. Rugged, do all licensed plumbers have Masters certification?

However I have a hard time paying $3000 for a plumber to move a 2 water supply lines, a shower drain 6 inches and a toilet drain 10 inches in a 8 x 6 bathroom that will be gutted(basement has fully exposed access to pipes). This is 1.5 days of work at most. Then again, everyone asks for the world where I live.

As for NO, I wouldn't want to be on the plumbing crews there.


in jersey the 3 grand would cover the move, the rough in, which is probably the shower valve also, the installation of all fixtures, the seal on your permit plus a warranty for workmanship. you could do an exempt applicant because you're the homeowner. but inspectors hate that and ALWAYS find something to fail. which slows the job and costs time. sometimes time is worth more than money.

[Terry]

Some places have master plumbers, other places call them "residential plumbers", min 6000 hours with a journyman before you take the test, and "commercial plumbers" min 8000 hours before you take the test.
We do carry cards and keep them current.
I would say I learned more about plumbing after the first five years.

The first five years was like basic training. You still didn't know much.

When I started my training, along with about thirty others of similar age, the main purpose of the trainers, was to see how much we could take without quitting.

Most of us were married, and some with kids, so quitting for most of us was out of the question. I've never been in boot camp, but I would guess it was somewhat along those lines. The first week in the field, was picks, digging bars, shovels and sledge hammers. To make it more enjoyable, the Journyman and the apprentice insulted and made fun of us.
They didn't want to waste their time training you if you were going to quit on them.
It was also payback for how they had been treated.
The first week, my hands were so sore, I couldn't close my hands.

After the first week, my hands got used to it, and I started picking up speed.
Common injuries became smashed fingers, cuts, and burns on face and arms.
On some job sites, I would wear rubber boots when my knees were causing too much pain, then when my arches were giving me trouble I would switch to stiff boots. In the Winter, when the rains came, there were times when you would get shocked if you forgot and touched your knee to the floor while drilling.
Working with 1/2 hp drill motors that would break studs in half, you tried not to get your chin hit when you hit knots and nails that were hidden.
I think the worst for me was dislocating my shoulder every so often.
The pain from that made sleeping difficult.
Try crawling a crawlspace after that.
I could still knock a hole through a 8" foundation in five sledgehammer blows or less though. When my arm was good.

From a business standpoint, what the homeowner is seeing in pay, is not what the plumber gets to take home. The owner of the company has a lot of uses for the money that is billed.

Part of what any business does, is having a structure that operates within government guidelines.

You will have business licenses, taxes, advertising, vehicle expenses, tools to be bought and maintained.

Insurance, workmens comp, health plans, phone bills, gas, repairs, time out to keep stock, dump runs, answer phones, order materials, explaining things to workers before they leave for the day. Book keeping, tracking receivables and payables.

If you're doing service work, you're lucky to get four billable hours a day per plumber.
You pay him for eight, he gets you four.
With contract work, where he may be working the same place for days, it gets better. More billable hours, and typical for the contract, less per hour.

Homeowners may be confusing a billed rate to a working wage.
When an airplane is sold, the pricetag is in the million plus range, the workers don't get all that. The business that builds the plane may only be making 3% which is a very small margin considering that everytime you pay with a credit card, the business owner has to pay between 2% and 3.5% of the total amount charged to "card services".

There are many places that the money goes to.

[rldev]

Wow that is some interesting stuff Terry. You have quite a few intersting stories:) The good news for me is that my neighbor has agreed to do my work for a very reasonable price. He is not a licensed plumber, but he is extremely good, well educated and a stickler for details. I have seen him do many plumbing related jobs and he did install my outdoor gas line for my BBQ. He used to build houses in Vermont. He is actually overseeing a reroof for me this weekend. What a great neighbor:)

[plumguy]

I could still knock a hole through a 8" foundation in five sledgehammer blows or less though. When my arm was good.



I'm no stranger to a sledgehammer, but, I would of liked to seen that!!

Of course you did'nt mention if the cement was dry!! :D

[Cal]

Terry,

LOVED your describtion of apprenticeship !! Mine was VERY similar . First 6 months pick and shovel replacing broken sewers and water. In reference to another quote here,,,I felt sick as hell for the first 3+ months,then I've rarely gotten sick in the last 25 years.I believe we DO build up immunities or quit.

Yes,it was VERY hard but worth the fight.I would like to see more young people in the trades.Hope we don't run out of good people just because it's hard work !!

[hj]

It's just when people start charging over a hundred thirty dollars an hour(no matter what their field), I want to see some qualifications. And if I am paying someone over $1000 a day I wan't to see more then just a regular license.

And what kind of "special license" might that be? Does your area have a "super plumber" classification? If not then you may just be paying for a more qualified "regular" plumber, or maybe a better one who charges a bit more, but completes the job faster so that the bottom line is better for you. I tell customers that a $50.00 plumber who takes 4 hours to do the job is more expensive than $100.00 one who takes an hour, or an hour and a half at most. And you have a better chance of getting the quality you want with the more expensive plumber. I also tell customers that if I am too expensive, then I know a lot of cheaper plumbers that they can call. Few take me up on it.

[rldev]

Unfortunately HJ, price does not neccessarily equate to quality. My area has "Master Plumbing certification". I have had 3 plumbers in my house. Two were horrible and one was good. The price was about the same for all of them. Just because someone charges more does not mean they are better or faster. I bet there are indeed some people out there that charge $50 an hour and are as good as you are. Probably not common though. And this is no slight on you or your skills. Where I live, most trade persons are very busy. There is endless construction going on. Most contracter quotes are very high because they can charge what they want, there is high demand. If you take it, great. If not there is someone who will pay. I have a couple of friends that work that work for contracting companies and they always review my quotes. I just received a quote for my 8.5 x 6 bathroom remodel. How about 20K without fixtures and tiles:) LMAO! I have had many different people work on my home in the last 3.5 years. I have found no definitive correlation between price and skill/quality. Some folks are good, some are not. Some are better at the business end, some are not. To summize, you don't always get what you pay for.

[Terry]

Plumguy,
I was plumbing new homes, so the foundations weren't that old.
Previous to someone telling me it was possible in seven blows, I tried harder.
Five became mine. I'm competitive, I'll admit that.
In softball I hit a gounder to the second baseman that hit his glove and went straight up in the air.
I rounded first and thought of taking second, thinking I could make it before the ball came back down. Naw, better to be safe on first.

Another time, I hit the second basemen and the ball ricocheted off his legs into right field foul territory. Easy double.

Rldev,
Having your neighbor work for you is always good.
I wish my neigbors would work for me in their spare time.
Anytime you can get neigbors to work under the table you can get good deals. I don't really want "my" workers doing it though.
I'm sure my customers would love it if I were to give them the "neighbor rate".
Years ago people from church would invite me over for dinner, "Don't forget your tools!"
One of my more recent churches had me replace the plumbing for the entire church. I chose Toto toilets and urinals. This way I don't have to do anymore plumbing when I go to church. It always works. I talked to a customer that works for the Port Authority for the airport. He says they have the least trouble with the Toto fixtures there.

I plumbed my friends new home, and at some point he says he will side a home for me. I don't know when that will be. It's banked I guess.

I help some people for free, but I choose the ones I help.
People in need I've helped out too.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

I've seen that $130 figure show up here numerous times since I posted it. :D I like the fact that only a select few considered that high. Here is how it played out today: That customer I charged $130 an hour told two of his neighbors today when they had a leak in their ceiling to call me for plumbing services. Found the leak, turned out to be a condensation leak off the AC coil pan leaking right at the connection to it, not a clogged drain. Took awhile to find it since the water travelled 16 feet from its original location. Customer affected by damage was impressed by the work I did the week prior, no matter what the charge was. I now have a kitchen sink faucet to install for the couple that had the AC leak, passed out 3 cards upon request.
As Terry mentioned, a great deal goes into running a business behind the scenes, sometimes I think the easy part is actually doing the work. The rest is just management. You're PR comes with your approach to new customers. I believe those that tend to whine and cry about charges usually have the issue of jealousy, wishing they would of applied themselves through life to make a wage similar to plumbers. I for one dodged the $50,000 education and student loans and drove home the point that if you apply yourself, become a good businessman without leaching off others, you will succeed. Of course I had to go through an apprenticeship, licensing and certifications which all cost money. None of which ended up in loans drawing interest. I for one am thanking those neighbors all the way to the bank. "What's in your wallet?" $$$

[Kristi]

hmmm.... except my $130 is Canadian... bummer!!! That's about 20 bucks US, isn't it? lol...

[Terry]

Kristi,
Shhhhhhhhh

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Well, set the Kitchen sink faucet today and made $112 and the customer said that the beginning of next month she wants me to change out the vanity faucets to single handle instead of 2 handle faucets because of her Rumatoid Arthritis. (I know that is spelled wrong, who cares) I just told her to pick up what she likes and we'll take care of her. I believe here soon enough I will become a household name in that condo unit. Just wish I lived a little bit closer. (17 miles one way)

[master plumber mark]

but something you forgot to mentioin about
running a plumbing business......THE BIG LET DOWN

the dummies working for you get paid wether
you ever get your money or not....
and they really dont care
about your troubles....all they want is a check on pay day.

So when a builder goes belly up and owes you 30k
or simply wont pay you , that has to be factored into
the whole picture too.

Those "billible hours" really shrink
when that happens...

as far as what you said about the process of becomming a plumber
you are right. ---- but the testing and time required
is almost too hard for the idiots that
consider themselves plumber apprentices today.
In My Opinion. Most of them can barely read and write.



sometimes I feel like going out to the zoo and
stealing a orangatang monkey, then just putting him
in work clothes to drive around with me all day.

(clint eastwood did that in some of his movies)

as long as half his butt is hanging out
I dont think anyone would notice the difference.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

it is very good karma to help others,

and I help little old ladies and the elderly all the time...but never freinds.

I have found that to be the best way to lose them.

I have found that "bartering out" somehting with
freinds seems to be the best way to end the freindship and
not see them anymore...
it never works cause it seems that
once they got their favor done, they never keep their word
or simply forget what they agreed to do or they
they simply crawl back into the woodwork.

I suppose as long as you look at all the favors
as "good deeds" that add up over time I guess its all ok.

I got lots of + credits right now in the "bank of good deeds."

I hope they carry over to the next life, cause I am pretty sure
I aint gonna see one red cent come back to me this time through.

[rldev]

"Years ago people from church would invite me over for dinner, "Don't forget your tools!"

That is classic Terry. It's u always have to give back. I do the same for my neighbor with electronics.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

That customer I charged $130 an hour told two of his neighbors today when they had a leak in their ceiling to call me for plumbing services. Found the leak, turned out to be a condensation leak off the AC coil pan leaking right at the connection to it, not a clogged drain. Took awhile to find it since the water travelled 16 feet from its original location. Customer affected by damage was impressed by the work I did the week prior, no matter what the charge was. I now have a kitchen sink faucet to install for the couple that had the AC leak, passed out 3 cards upon request.




There is a response from me following this one stating I installed that kitchen sink faucet.


Fast forward to today, 9-27-05


Customer I charged $130/hour called yesterday "thinking" I had a leak in the piping I worked on that night of the emergency. I probably will not charge for my time yesterday because here is what I have to do today: replace his garbage disposal that isn't working, replace a Delta single handle that "WAS" leaking into the cabinet, rework all the drain piping since the new disposal is going to change all the piping underneath, along with replacing a basket strainer that is/was leaking @ one time. Pretty much I have a few hours coming to me today for all this work. And to top it off, the lady I did the kitchen sink faucet install as a spinoff, she told the customer I am doing all this work for to have me call her. I am now having to install a refrigerator icemaker line for a future delivery in October so that the delivery guys have good non-leaking line to connect to when they get there. This is my last posting referring to this subject since I know that my repeat business off of just one call @ $130 an hour is generating income and will continue. I'm starting to feel like the batteries in the energizer bunny. Keeps going,going,going,going and going with all the work/referrals that are coming out of this.