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SewerRatz
05-04-2009, 06:20 AM
Have any of you all gotten the chain e-mail about the American Flag Upside down and Flying below a Mexican flag out in California? I just did, and I would of thought it to be some sort of fake e-mail. So I checked it out on Snope, Digg, and Truth or Fiction. Sadly it was true back in March 27, 2006.

If you want to read the truth part and the e-mail here is the link at truth or fiction (no annoying pop-ups like Snope) http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/m/montebello-flag.htm

Ian Gills
05-04-2009, 03:38 PM
It's only a flag. The Flag Code serves as a guide to be followed on a purely voluntary basis to insure proper respect for the flag. The Supreme Court has ruled that politically motivated violations of the Flag Code are protected by the First Amendment.

The Flag Code has no provision for enforcement. No fines, no penalties. There is nothing law enforcement can do when the Flag Code is broken.


Your rules for how to use the American flag are actually pretty relaxed compared to most other countries.

http://www.ushistory.org/BETSY/images/foldflag.gif

For example, most would not let you hang it from a car unless you are someone quite special. But here anyone can, as long as the staff is fixed firmly to the chassis or clamped to the right fender.

South Africa has some of the tightest rules I have seen.

Cookie
05-04-2009, 04:43 PM
Oh, Ian if you were to have spoken to my dad when he was alive he would had set you straight real fast. He fought for that flag, that flag is a symbol of our country, it is disrespectful for those who fought, and either lived or died for our country.


No, Ian it is not just a flag. That was my dad. I would personally had climbed up that pole and made it right.

That flag does not touch the ground or does not get tattered or torn, and hangs always proudly in the air.

Redwood
05-04-2009, 07:03 PM
Quite Frankly What I would like to see is when there is a similar demonstration that the marchers are all detained until citizenship can be verified and that all who are not US citizens are deported immediately...

Ian Gills
05-05-2009, 08:55 AM
Not that anyone has mentioned it, but the graphic in my post is actually a demonstration on how the American flag should be folded.

If you really love the American flag that much (which you all clearly do) then you must also consider other flag violations which you probably overlook more than you might think.

http://www.ushistory.org/BETSY/images/barackflag_t.jpg
Baltimore, MD. Flags overprinted with the new President's image and name are distributed to celebrate his inauguration. Section 8g of the Flag Code reads, "The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature."

http://www.ushistory.org/BETSY/images/bush911_t.jpg
September 11, 2006, President Bush and first lady Laura Bush stand on a carpet of the American flag at Ground Zero in Manhattan, the site of the September 11, 2001 attack. Section 8b of the Flag Code reads, " The flag should never touch anything beneath it, such as the ground..."

http://www.ushistory.org/BETSY/images/kidrockflag_t.jpg
Super Bowl 2004, half-time show featured the wearing of an American flag by performer Kid Rock. He later removed the flag poncho and hurled it over his head. Section 8d. reads, "The flag should never be used as wearing apparel."

http://www.ushistory.org/BETSY/images/bushflag_t.jpg
In July 2003 President Bush autographed a small flag. This picture was circulated across the Internet noting its violation of the Flag Code: "The flag should never have placed upon it, nor on any part of it, nor attached to it any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture, or drawing of any nature."

Cookie
05-05-2009, 09:16 AM
As, much as you might not understand this, those examples you cited were not deliberate actions of disrespect, hanging it upside as in the other mentioned, is. Does this make any sense to you? I cannot explain it, in any other way, Ian. It is the intent.

Scuba_Dave
05-05-2009, 09:28 AM
Walking on the flag is not disrespect?????

The flag has been burned & desecrated in this country
Its all part of the freedom

Scuba_Dave
05-05-2009, 01:24 PM
I'm sorry but I would never walk on the American flag
I do have a patch on my hat that has the American flag
As well as one on one coat

So he didn't intend to walk on the flag??

He didn't intend to sign the flag?

Ian Gills
05-05-2009, 04:12 PM
http://www.vetscor.org/sounds/18-reveille.wav

Scuba_Dave
05-05-2009, 04:46 PM
Robin hood without a weapon?

Shirley you jest
He created the 1st weapon of mass desctruction :D

http://vulcanstev.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/robin_hood_men_in_tights2.jpg

Ian Gills
05-06-2009, 01:40 PM
It's a quarterstaff. The quarterstaff may be made from many kinds of wood, commonly ash, oak, hazel, or hawthorn. It may have metal spikes or caps at one or both ends. The length of the staff varies, typically ranging from 6 to 9 feet. The weapon seems to have become shorter and lighter later in its history, though 3-meter staves (made of bamboo or ash) wood were still sometimes employed in Victorian England.

The quarterstaff is effectively a long two-handed club, although its weight distribution is generally even throughout its entire length (some forms did have weighted tips, however). It was used both to deliver crushing blows, and to thrust like a spear. The art of using the staff was closely related to that of other polearms, and it was often employed as a training weapon for the latter. Moves include many different forms of blocks, thrusts, strikes, and sweeps.

The staff, being a very simple weapon to manufacture, has a long history of use, and a wide cultural dispersion. The staff is a traditional weapon of many Asian martial arts. The quarterstaff proper was historically a common weapon in England, where it is featured in the Robin Hood legend as the favorite weapon of Little John. There are also many tools that can easily be used as or quickly converted to a staff. Like copper pipe.

hj
05-07-2009, 05:14 PM
When a French envoy asked why the convention was in France but was being conducted in English, he was told that if it were not for America and England, the meeting would be in German.

Cass
05-08-2009, 05:26 AM
The American Flag upside down means America in Distress...I am not sure if when it was place that way they knew it or not...they may have done it to disrespect it...but regardless it should have been on the National News but the politically correct left wouldn't want to cause any problems with their voters...

when I gaze at the general view of our president it reminds me of how much of Germany acted toward Hitler before and during the War...

Redwood
05-08-2009, 06:13 AM
The American Flag upside down means America in Distress...I am not sure if when it was place that way they knew it or not...they may have done it to disrespect it...but regardless it should have been on the National News but the politically correct left wouldn't want to cause any problems with their voters...

when I gaze at the general view of our president it reminds me of how much of Germany acted toward Hitler before and during the War...

Yes Cass, the US flag upside down is a recognized distress signal...

However, to have one nations flag above another, or share the same flagpole is disrespect.


When flown with the national banner of other countries, each flag must be displayed from a separate pole of the same height. Each flag should be the same size. They should be raised and lowered simultaneously. The flag of one nation may not be displayed above that of another nation.http://www.usflag.org/flagetiquette.html

As I stated above...
Round them all up, Check citizenship, and deport as many as possible...
What would happen if we went to Mexico and had a similar demonstration disrespecting their flag?

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2/Redwood39/UN.jpg

Cookie
05-08-2009, 06:24 AM
We would get no tacos?:D

Scuba_Dave
05-08-2009, 06:52 AM
As I stated above...
Round them all up, Check citizenship, and deport as many as possible...
What would happen if we went to Mexico and had a similar demonstration disrespecting their flag?

Pretty sure you might end up in jail for a while

Cookie
05-08-2009, 06:54 AM
Bet the food is better. :D

Redwood
05-08-2009, 07:04 AM
Bet the food is better. :D

Just don't drink the water!

Cass
05-08-2009, 02:00 PM
Yes Cass, the US flag upside down is a recognized distress signal...

However, to have one nations flag above another, or share the same flagpole is disrespect.



As I stated above...
Round them all up, Check citizenship, and deport as many as possible...
What would happen if we went to Mexico and had a similar demonstration disrespecting their flag?

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2/Redwood39/UN.jpg

I will hold them while you check and see if they are...

Redwood
05-08-2009, 04:31 PM
Sounds good to me...:D

theelviscerator
05-09-2009, 08:29 AM
Yes Cass, the US flag upside down is a recognized distress signal...

However, to have one nations flag above another, or share the same flagpole is disrespect.



As I stated above...
Round them all up, Check citizenship, and deport as many as possible...
What would happen if we went to Mexico and had a similar demonstration disrespecting their flag?

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2/Redwood39/UN.jpg



You would get lynched, tied to a post, dismembered and set on fire.

Wanna see some color pictures of an example? ;)

Redwood
05-09-2009, 10:21 AM
You would get lynched, tied to a post, dismembered and set on fire.

Wanna see some color pictures of an example? ;)

Maybe I'll just send my nephew...
He loves his job....

http://www.maderatribune.com/content/img/f240917/0417apImmigrationRaid.jpg

Cookie
05-09-2009, 07:53 PM
The American Flag upside down means America in Distress...I am not sure if when it was place that way they knew it or not...they may have done it to disrespect it...but regardless it should have been on the National News but the politically correct left wouldn't want to cause any problems with their voters...

when I gaze at the general view of our president it reminds me of how much of Germany acted toward Hitler before and during the War...

I was reading my Times today, May 18th.

I am quoting this:

The President recently told a remarkable story about his grandmother. In the last months of her life---she was dying of cancer---she broke her hip and received a hip replacement from Medicare. " I don't know how much that hip replacement cost " Obama told the New York Times, and he questioned whether giving people a hip replacement when they are terminally ill is a sustainable model. " This is the most sensitive health care issue imagineable. But the question of whether the government can decide which health treatments are appropriate is central to whether an central health care system can be devised. Part of the answer is implicated in the electronic medical records sytem that Obama has proposed.


It goes on talking about us baby boomers.

Cass
05-10-2009, 03:32 AM
Yes....This is the question that all the " The government should supply us with it free" crowd does not realize...once the government supplys health care to every one they will be the one that decide if spending the $$$ is worth it...they will decide if you are to old to spend the $$$ or if the cost of treatment is to high...I for one don't want to hear" Hi...my name is John, Im from the government and today I will be deciding if you live or die...

If you think it is bad now with the HMOs people should just look at other countrys...they are 100s of X worse than the HMOs but very few understand...the way it is now is not perfect...there will never be a perfect one ...but it is the best system in the world....


I'm not sure if any of you saw this on the news but there were a few people in France that were just told that they could not receive possible life saving treatment for cancer because it was to expensive...


Guess where the first government cut backs would be during a recession or depression...They would start with the elderly...and they would set what age they conside elderly to be...

Cookie
05-10-2009, 04:28 AM
Well, the article of the May 18th issue goes on saying,
about the baby boomer's:

" Since most of the baby boomer's about to enter the Medicaid system we have been living with managed care for the past 20 years, a gradual transition may not be impossible." The real battle, and the fate of this liberal dream, will be fought over what gets covered and who decides.

Gary Slusser
05-10-2009, 04:34 PM
Usually the same people that think it is OK to do whatever with our flag are the same ones that voted for OBAMA! and other democrats; many because of the free health care they were promised without knowing how it would be accomplished. As everything else they were promised. Yet those people will probably be the first to complain after the health care industry is decimated and all health care is fully controlled by the government and treatment is refused to them or their family simply because they are too old or it is too costly. Which is the plan from what I have read and what OBAMA! has said.

Ian Gills
05-11-2009, 11:09 AM
Trust me, you would like free health care.

I have some of the best private medical insurance in this country (provided by my employer) and I am still stunned at how much I still have to pay out-of-pocket or the hoops I have to jump through to get the more complex treatment, versus how I am treated in Europe.

Waiting a couple of weeks (in extreme cases, often there is no wait) but getting everything for free is much better under socialised medicine.

And socialised medicine does not mean the end of private. They can live together side-by-side. You just will have to pay for both. But America spends so much on defence and going into space (for God's sake) that you won't notice any difference anyway.

Healthy people pay taxes, sick people don't. Remember that.

Cookie
05-11-2009, 11:14 AM
Have you ever experienced an expensive, major health problem a few times over? Just a question, what would happen if you were on chemo for 5 years, at 120,000 thousand dollars a drug? Not to fail to mention, your scans are 20,000 a year and then, a whole lot of incidentals. And, you are mid 50's, and you spent the past 11 years fighting it, an incurable disease, but being controlled and managed, with no guarantees. When would they say no to you? And, could you have a bone marrow transplant and also, an autologous stem cell transplant? Are you familiar with the cost of these?

There are other factors too, you would need to present to them, or add on; other medical problems equally, as tough and expensive. (We are not talking a hip replacement either.)

Ian Gills
05-11-2009, 11:26 AM
In the UK, no problem. All paid for by the State. My father-in-law has a US$30,000 a month condition. No problems.

Here, the insurance company would have kicked him to the kerb years ago.

The problem in the US is that health "insurance" is not really insurance. Insurance is supposed to share the risk among everybody...so we all pay a little, just in case, and the guy that gets sick gets the treatment. But in America, if they think you are too risky they kick you out, just leaving all the healthy guys in, which defeats the whole purpose!

ALL SHOULD PAY, ALL SHOULD BENEFIT. PERIOD. GET THE GOVERNMENT IN.

Cookie
05-11-2009, 11:43 AM
I am not on the curb, and my medical bills are more than you can imagine. Ian, my pills were 500 a piece, lol.

I am glad you like your health insurance over in the UK, and I like mine here. :) Infact, I like it alot, because I know, no matter how old I get, no matter if they decide I am not worth it anymore, the deciding factor will be mine... I cast the vote Ian.:) That is the difference.

Ian Gills
05-11-2009, 11:44 AM
But what happens if you can't pay the premium?

You've worked hard for this country, now the country should do its bit for you.

You always write the most contraversial posts Cookie :). This section of the forum should be renamed Cookie's corner.

Could you do that Terry?

(if you mention his name he normally responds).

Cookie
05-11-2009, 11:59 AM
I have learned a long time ago to not to live in the world of what if's.

A long time ago, my oncologist sat me down, when I had asked him, "what if this doesn't work?" My husband was with me holding my hand when the oncologist told me this, " you need to get a new mindset."

I had left that office that day saying to my husband, "I don't know what he means, what does he mean, a new mindset?" "Only you can answer that for yourself" he answered.

And, I did.

Cookie
05-11-2009, 12:02 PM
That makes me laugh, no Terry, I thank yee Ian, but, Rugged already gave me a Cookie's Corner and along with it comes many hours of thinking, and wondering and working. I have had pretty decent columns in newspapers and I turn them down today for that very reason. I hide behind this mask you see with a belly-button ring. :)

Gary Slusser
05-11-2009, 06:15 PM
I heard today that OBAMA!'s deficit for THIS year is 1.8 TRILLION AND, they are borrowing $.50 of every dollar they are spending.

IMO, we have much more to worry about than if we get socialized health care passed by the end of this year as he said today he expected congress to do.

Redwood
05-12-2009, 07:47 AM
It is surely better what he is spending it on than trying to step in with an open checkbook and fix a problem that has not been solved since 622 A.D. despite all efforts of many govenments... :cool:

Cookie
05-12-2009, 08:01 AM
Yeah, it doesn't make me feel so bad that my check book doesn't balance when the government can't balance theirs even with all the think tanks they got and the best of accountants at their fingertips. The baby boomers are in for a rude awakening. Their are just too many of us.

speedbump
05-12-2009, 10:39 AM
Trust me, you would like free health care.

I guess you've never been a resident of Canada. Ask them how they like their government health care.

I will agree with one thing you said though (and only one so far). The fact that insurance isn't what it started out to be. As it started you pay in as does everyone else who want's health care and the insurance company pays for your illness no matter what it is and they make money in the process. Now that greed has set in and lobbyists are rampant in congress, the insurance company gets it's way no matter what it wants. Now they can kick you to the curb if you have a pre-exting illness or don't look like you can pay in thousands before they cancel you. Yup, that system is screwed up. But it still beats the hell out of letting Government get involved. You think it's screwed up now? Give Gov't a chance at it and it will be a nightmare.

SewerRatz
05-12-2009, 11:31 AM
I had an Uncle that was a Vet, and he was waiting in line for his free surgery at the VA hospital. There was a 8 month waiting list, and he got bumped a few times, 16 months later, 2 weeks before he finally scheduled for the surgery he passed away due to complications. If he had any other insurance or would of paid for the surgery out of his own pocket he would be with us today. But he believed in the system. I see the same thing is going to happen to many others if we go for free medical for all in the US.

Peanut9199
05-12-2009, 11:47 AM
I guess you've never been a resident of Canada. Ask them how they like their government health care.


Not sure what you mean, i love my health care.

My Mom was in the hospital last year (she was sick for 8 months) 1 time for 2 days, 1 time for 2 months, 1 time for 2 weeks and they had no idea what she had.
She had every test known to man, i can't count how many Ct and MRI scans and including 8 different specialized doctors.
She was in a semi-private suite and for an extra $40.00 a day we got her a private room.

The total bill was $90.00 for two ambulance charges

Cookie
05-12-2009, 07:49 PM
What you really need to look at Peter, is the over all cost over a longer period of time. I like to think of things in longer terms. A short term will always see just that, a short term result. We,are not looking for short term results it the the long term results we are looking for in most things involving money! And, no bigger money spent than on health care. Although it is a good start to analyze with shorter stays, smaller amount of testing ordered, etc, but, what matters most, would be the patients whose stays can break the bank.

Peter, how is your mom doing? I really hope okay.

SewerRatz
05-12-2009, 10:07 PM
We should let the Rats take over the world.

Peanut9199
05-13-2009, 05:13 AM
Peter, how is your mom doing? I really hope okay.

Thank you yes she is doing a lot better now she's been back at work since December (couldn't hold her back). She still is weak a bit but 1000 times better than she was.
We ended up finding out she had Lupus which is rare for her age.
We went to the Dominican Republic and she got sick and on top of the Lupus she was sick for weeks, then something else happened and something else....
it just seemed to be one thing on top of another.
But we are now on top of her medication and starting to get rid of other medication she doesn't need anymore, so she and I are very happy we are starting to get back to normal.
Now she wants to go on a cruise in January anywhere but the Dominican.

Cookie
05-13-2009, 03:35 PM
Oh, Peter, you got one spunky mom there! That is great. I was so glad to hear she is doing okay. My aunt had Lupus, I lost her years ago, but not to that, thank God. How old is your mother? I don't know much about Lupus, my aunt was very quiet about it. I don't know why.

Where does she want to go, Peter? I want one. I want to go to the Bimini Islands. :) That would be my choice of a vacation. The beach, the ocean. Or I would love to visit a friend in NZ and see, their black beaches.

I know that one thing after another happening, but, just take it one day at a time, it works. Try not to be discouraged, i know it is hard, but, for her you got to try. I love it, when my sons just spend time with me, instead of their girlfriends, lol. Me, lol.

I got really great new today from my check up with the onc. I was worried I had a bad node in my pelvis, where I never had anything ever wrong, so I was pretty worried. HERE I got a hernia! Imagine that. :D

I got something normal. :eek::D I can deal with normal.

Peanut9199
05-14-2009, 05:04 AM
She is 63 in 2 weeks.
They call Lupus the "The Great Imitator" desease because it looks like a lot of other deseases. The chronic complaints are fever, malaise, joint pains, myalgias, fatigue, and temporary loss of cognitive abilities, so it looks like the flu mixed with arthritis and getting old (hard remebering things).
We booked the cruise on Carnival for Jan 10 and we are going to Southern Caribbean: San Juan, Puerto Rico ; St. Thomas, USVI ; Dominica ; Barbados ; St. Lucia, WI ; Antigua ; St Kitts, WI ; San Juan, Puerto Rico, so 7 islands in 7 days which is good. My dream is Bora Bora and The French Polynesian.

I'm glad your ok it's scary when you don't know whats wrong with you. I know how your son's feel when someone you love is sick and there is really nothing you can do but be there for them.
When my Mom was in the hospital i took off work and stayed with her all day 8:00 am til they kicked me out at 8:00 pm, i just felt better being there and taking care of her because you seem to get better care if you have someone there.

It's funny i used to say if you had a choice between money and health i would pick money because you can always buy good medical, well not anymore i would choose health any day of the week.

Just went to the doctors last night for the results of a Cat scan and now i have to go back for a MRI because they seen a lot of problems with my back and hips, and i'm only 41.

Hopefully it's just herniated discs and maybe arthritis of the hips.

Gary Slusser
05-14-2009, 11:07 AM
It is surely better what he is spending it on than trying to step in with an open checkbook and fix a problem that has not been solved since 622 A.D. despite all efforts of many govenments... :cool:
Really! Just what has the hundreds of billions spent already done for you, me or anyone other than the bankers? What do you believe the trillion plus to be spent this year will do? He has signed us up for more debt than all the presidents combined since 1776, and I guess you see no problem with that... I and many others, more and more everyday do.

IMO the government regs in place now have been driving up the cost of health care tremendously since they started interfering with the free market back in about 1987. Unless you or your family is involved in the operation of a hospital or in nursing, on a supervisory level, the average person has no idea of the costs generated by the paperwork and what procedures will or will not be approved etc. etc. ,and what they will or won't pay with the caps. And now again, the government is going try to take over a huge part of the US economy. Tell me, how are they doing, or how do you think they will do, in handling this very serious financial mess and failed economy and running car companies and banks they've taken over?

IMO the only thing the government does well is the military, when Republicans are in charge, and they aren't too bad with NASA but that's because of all the military personnel in the program.

Many people mistakenly think that because they have been paying insurance premiums for years that that should get them something, and it does, peace of mind for the one year contract duration.

Every year your premium is a bet by you that you or a family member are going to need coverage and the insurance company is betting you won't. Your wager/bet/premium is paid and if you didn't need the coverage, you have to bet again next year, and you are older and maybe in midlife crises and doing stupid stuff that the company is not allowed to take into account.

Would you like to run a business where you didn't actually know your expenses before you set the price of your product, like say a serious flu epidemic, hurricane, flood, fires?

All insurance companies do it every year. And frankly, they are damned good at it. The US has historically had the best health care in the world, which relates to the best standard of living, and why so damned many people want/wanted to move here. And yes, it's a fact of life that if you don't pay, you usually don't get to play. So sacrifice today, get out of debt and do away with the toys, vacations, new vehicles every couple years etc. etc. and save your own money for the future when you are not going to be making much if any and might live to 90, or go without. Life is a series of choices and consequences and the government isn't capable of providing a birth to grave safety net; and should not be attempting to do so.

Or vote for the hollow promises of someone like the current crop of politicians in all forms of our government today and go down in flames when they fail. And especially on the national level where most if not all are career types that will promise anything to get elected and then lie later saying "I didn't know that or I didn't say that, or I can't recall" or "I was misquoted and meant....".

Redwood, if you have employees, have you read anything about this nationalized health care system's requirements of employers if what happens it they don't comply?

SpartyRules!
05-15-2009, 12:44 PM
As much as I love the current status of Medical Insureance in the US, the model does need to change drasticlly.

I'm employed, have enough to pay for a decent HMO, and have little problems, it works for me (for now).

Here's the rub. Most people don't pay for the bulk of healthcare, and this removes them from the amazing things going on with costs, and they will very soon get a wake-up-call.

Most American's WITH jobs that offer benefits don't want anything to change because the currently likely only shoulder about 30% max (using fairly large corp's at the benchmark data) of the cost of their premiums in weekly or bi-wekly deductions, and have affordable deductibles and manageable out of pocket max's. So day-to-day your healthcare is good enough and cheap enough for you to not have a huge problem.

Companies on the other hand generally share the other 70+% of the cost, and are quickly realizing that offering health benefits to employees is no longer an automatic option as it was in years past.

Bottom line, I work for a large corporation (in the 6 Billion range), working in HR, and for the first time in my life I have heard mention of short-term benefit projections that are staggering, and when I say staggering I mean it. It is a very real fact that employers out there (if nothing changes) will start to drop healthcare coverage for exployees in the next few years. The variable cost model doesn't work. They'll just give each employee $1,000 and say good luck.

Healthcare in the US works great for you when you pay $300/month for good coverage, just wait until you get to stare at the REAL cost $1500/month for premium, with deductibles in the 1000's and no out of pocket MAX's.

It has to change, not sure government is the right anwser, but it can't be worse than the train coming down the tracks we are all standing on right now.

Scuba_Dave
05-15-2009, 03:38 PM
As much as I love the current status of Medical Insureance in the US, the model does need to change drasticlly.

I'm employed, have enough to pay for a decent HMO, and have little problems, it works for me (for now).

Here's the rub. Most people don't pay for the bulk of healthcare, and this removes them from the amazing things going on with costs, and they will very soon get a wake-up-call.

Most American's WITH jobs that offer benefits don't want anything to change because the currently likely only shoulder about 30% max (using fairly large corp's at the benchmark data) of the cost of their premiums in weekly or bi-wekly deductions, and have affordable deductibles and manageable out of pocket max's. So day-to-day your healthcare is good enough and cheap enough for you to not have a huge problem.

Companies on the other hand generally share the other 70+% of the cost, and are quickly realizing that offering health benefits to employees is no longer an automatic option as it was in years past.

Bottom line, I work for a large corporation (in the 6 Billion range), working in HR, and for the first time in my life I have heard mention of short-term benefit projections that are staggering, and when I say staggering I mean it. It is a very real fact that employers out there (if nothing changes) will start to drop healthcare coverage for exployees in the next few years. The variable cost model doesn't work. They'll just give each employee $1,000 and say good luck.

Healthcare in the US works great for you when you pay $300/month for good coverage, just wait until you get to stare at the REAL cost $1500/month for premium, with deductibles in the 1000's and no out of pocket MAX's.

It has to change, not sure government is the right anwser, but it can't be worse than the train coming down the tracks we are all standing on right now.

Actually its law (here) that if they have more then 10 employees they have to provide health care coverage

Gary Slusser
05-15-2009, 09:02 PM
Until the government gets out of the medical businesses, including insurance, the costs can not come down.

The government controls every facet from the invention of something to be sued in the medical fields, to the end user's use of it. As far as insurance companies, the state governments (all 57 or more did HE say?) have control of everything from the features/coverages of each policy to the price charged.

Can anyone imagine a company having to get a policy, which is a contract, approved in each state? And what that alone costs and how long it might take, in years? That is what is done, the process, for each life, home, auto, long term disability, health etc., etc.insurance policy sold by any insurance company in this country.

That's after jumping through many expensive hoops to become an insurance company to start with. And all that is before they can sell anything, or said another way, make a penny. Then once they are in business, there is all kinds of paperwork, inspections, audits etc. etc.. All that expense is reflected in the price of the product, in the form of the premium, or medical device or machine.

And then there are the drug companies. They spend many millions to develop a drug and then go through many years of very expensive testing before they find out if they have a failure or partial success. Partial because at any time after release, the drug may have side effects etc. that causes the government to make the company pull it off the market forever usually, and defend law suits for maybe a couple decades, and then probably pay off claims. No matter how many hundreds of thousands or millions of people may have been helped by the drug, or lives saved or improved, as few as a 100 problems can end it for everyone.

All that expense and the unknown potential future losses directly impacts the price, and the price leads to the industries being called greedy.

Health insurance premiums are reflective of overuse of the health care system. And insureds do not see or know of the costs of health care when they simply submit the doctor's or hospital bill to their insurance company and they are paid. And if the person does see the costs, they do not care! as long as they don't have to pay them. So they use the system for every little sniffle or pain etc. and merrily send the bills off to be paid by someone else. IF they had to pay the bills, they wouldn't be so quick to go sit in a waiting room with a bunch of sick people, or get a prescription for every little thing as many do today.

Well those not caring days are coming to an end because of the government's involvement which raised the costs and then the price, and still does, higher and higher.

And now, we are promised by the same government that we are going to get help because the government is going to take over the industry and reduce costs. uh huh, right, and I'll believe it when I see the costs come down and the quality and availability of heath care remains the same or actually continues to increase as it has for a hundred years.

Cookie
05-16-2009, 04:34 AM
Until the government gets out of the medical businesses, including insurance, the costs can not come down.



Health insurance premiums are reflective of overuse of the health care system. And insureds do not see or know of the costs of health care when they simply submit the doctor's or hospital bill to their insurance company and they are paid. And if the person does see the costs, they do not care! as long as they don't have to pay them. So they use the system for every little sniffle or pain etc. and merrily send the bills off to be paid by someone else. IF they had to pay the bills, they wouldn't be so quick to go sit in a waiting room with a bunch of sick people, or get a prescription for every little thing as many do today.

downand availability of heath care remains the same or actually continues to increase as it has for a hundred years.

Gary, you need what my oncologist would say, " a new mindset."

Gary Slusser
05-17-2009, 12:28 PM
Cookie, and maybe not. But I take it you don't agree.

Cookie
05-17-2009, 03:29 PM
Sheesh, Gary, I think it is important for people to go to the doctor's when they feel something is wrong. You never know.

What is a sniffle to one person, could actually be something far worse. I would never make a judgment on someone like that. It could cost that person their life.

I don't know your health problems, nor do I want to, but, I have a medical background in its entirety would astound you. And, so much of it, Gary, could had been brushed off as nothing. I wouldn't be here to annoy you. :)

*I am always the person sitting in the oncologists office who looks like they don't belong. It isn't because usually, I am the youngest or one of the youngest, but, I look very healthy. I look like I could win a pageant, which is disturbing to some of my relatives. lol. I have had older people approach me on several occassions sitting in offices or lobby's for scans etc, say to me, " you have no idea what it is like to be sick."

It makes me wonder, if people think I am wasting insurance dollars, lol. So, in essence don't judge a book by its cover.

Gary Slusser
05-18-2009, 09:27 AM
Cookie, I've really been sad to hear of your problems and I'm glad you went to the doctor when you first thought that something might be wrong. Or now if you think there's something wrong. Had it not been for my wife making an appointment for me, I'd be dead 11 yrs now. I'm also saddened to hear you don't care anything about mine, but that's OK because I don't talk about 'it' and this wasn't supposed to be about you or me anyway.

speedbump
05-18-2009, 10:00 AM
OK Guys and Gals, time for a group hug!

Everybody Ready?

Cookie
05-18-2009, 10:18 AM
Cookie, I've really been sad to hear of your problems and I'm glad you went to the doctor when you first thought that something might be wrong. Or now if you think there's something wrong. Had it not been for my wife making an appointment for me, I'd be dead 11 yrs now. I'm also saddened to hear you don't care anything about mine, but that's OK because I don't talk about 'it' and this wasn't supposed to be about you or me anyway.


Gary, what is your problem with me? You always are rude to me, and I just about had it.

Gary Slusser
05-18-2009, 05:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
Cookie, I've really been sad to hear of your problems and I'm glad you went to the doctor when you first thought that something might be wrong. Or now if you think there's something wrong. Had it not been for my wife making an appointment for me, I'd be dead 11 yrs now. I'm also saddened to hear you don't care anything about mine, but that's OK because I don't talk about 'it' and this wasn't supposed to be about you or me anyway.[/quote]


Gary, what is your problem with me? You always are rude to me, and I just about had it.
Sorry Cookie, I apologize for anything I said that upset you in any way, that was not my intent.

Cookie
05-18-2009, 05:27 PM
Dont give it a thought, my relatives shit on me all the time.

Redwood
05-19-2009, 01:15 PM
I got these in an e-mail today...
All i could think of was sharing them in this thread...

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2/Redwood39/maxineflagburn.jpg

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2/Redwood39/maxine1nation.jpg