Copper Bond Epoxy - Opinions?

[MG]

I am close to finishing our bathroom remodel and need to install new shutoffs for the hot / cold water at the sink. I have room to sweat fittings on here but I've been seeing / reading some about epoxy for copper. Anyone use this? Its supposed to be good under pressure and ok for potable water.

[jadnashua]

Solder or compression...forget the epoxy. If you ever need to replace it, you're stuck with epoxy, and you'll have to cut it off. Then, you probably will need to add some on, tearing the wall up so you put the joint far enough back so there is room to put a new one on...

[MG]

Good points. I do recall from my experience in a paint manufacturers lab that epoxies melt when heated - so removing them might not be too bad.

I'll probably go with sweat fittings - they are currently just capped.

[Bob's HandyGuy]

The pro's on this site seem to prefer compression connections at the shut-off valve. Sweating a connection here can a) burn the wall b) melt the valve works c) cause the eschutcheon to turn blue. (Not being a pro, I've done all of these things.)

[Terry]

Compression is the way to go if you are installing shutoffs for the lav faucet.

[hj]

I would never put a compression fitting in an enclosed space, nor use the epoxy material to join the copper.

[dx]

As a builder, I prohibit my plumbers from using compression fittings. In my own previous house, I had a compression fitting at the kitchen sink that was leak-free for 5 years. Then it let go while I was out of town. I came home to a flooded house. I also agree with the postings recommending against sweat or epoxy.
What I do like is sweat-on threaded nipples. I put the escutcheons on, then sweat the nipple on using a flame blanket against the wall. Then cap it with a regular threaded cap. After paint, flooring, fixtures, etc. are in, simply srew in the shut-off valves. This method is simple, the valves can be easily serviced and there is no possibility of catastrophic failure.
I use the same procedure with pvc/cpvc supply lines. I actually prefer plastic to copper, but that is a whole different debate.

[Terry]

I've been a plumber for over thirty years.

You may have had one bad experience with an angle stop shutoff, but that's all it is.

I haven't seen problems with compression stops under a sink.
What can be bad, is the one-piece angle stop with the corrugated copper supply attached to the stop. The tubing can crack.
The part that can leak, is not the compression part, it's the tubing.
Even the threaded stops are going to use a compression fitting to supply the lav or kitchen faucet.

I do service work all the time, I wouldn't recommend anyone soldering near a wall like you suggest. You may wind up burning down your house.

[dx]

I beg to differ, with all due respect for your long experience. A compression connection can fail catastrophically if installed improperly. If overtightened, the pipe can be crimped beyond use and will need to be cut short. At the wall, you cannot shorten it without tearing up the wall. It is also non-replaceable for the same reason. A threaded connection is also easier for a DIY (i.e. no experience): use tape, tighten it by hand as hard as you can, pressurize, then tighten with wrench if necessary until it stops leaking.
Around here, in most municipalities, compression will not pass inspection in new construction or remodeling. It is only allowed for repairs in inaccessible spaces, etc.
To properly sweat at the wall, use a piece of galvanized sheet against the wall, with a hole in it just big enough for the nipple. Then put a fire blanket on top of the galvanized sheet (also with a hole in it). Then careful with the torch.
Yes, you can scorch the drywall if not careful. But plaster can be fixed. I cannot tell you how many new houses I see with big burns in the floor joists from sloppy soldering by professional plumbers. That is structural damage and much harder to fix.

[Terry]

Boy, that's a lot of ifs.

I replace compression stops all the time, using a "sleeve puller"
I didn't realize it was that big deal for some people.

I don't know where you are from, but in the rest of the US, we use code approved fittings and faucets. Compression stops fit in that catogory.
Threaded fittings are okay too.

Plumbers know how to install them, and things work fine.

Maybe your plumbers aren't as good as the ones here.
It's not rocket science.

[dx]

Terry,
You are absolutely right. But most DIYers have never heard of a sleeve puller. I assume the poster is not a plumber, but a homeowner with limited experience. Around here (Michigan), homeowners are allowed to do anything, including building an entire house, without being licensed in any trade, as long as they perform the work themselves. I see no problem with that (more work for us fixing stuff), but we do see some scary stuff. The savvier DIYers realize their limitations and come to forums such as this to ask for advice. I applaud that.

[master plumber mark]

this is sort of a joke isnt it???


- even with the sweat or threaded angle stops

that are commonly installed under every sink,

They still come usually with a 3/8 compression ferrul and
nut that you have to tie on to the faucet.....very very common.

Actually , you have not avoided a compression
fitting, youi look at one and use one every time you install
a sink. It just isnt a 100% compression fitting.

and how come it is ok on the 3/8 side of the stop and not on
the 1/2 side of the fitting????


I would like to know in what part of the
counrty some idiot -fool plumbing inspectors outlawed this.

and how do they justfy outlawing the comperssion on only the inlet to the
stop and not the outlet from the valve too.....




.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

I have been using compression straights and angles for all my kitchen sink faucet installs, lav faucet installs, laundry tub installs, toilet installs. For now 20 years.
Never once has one blown off, leaked slightly, but never blow off. A quick turn of the 5/8" nut normally takes care of the problem.
Soldering isolation valves creates problems down the road, meaning you have to do a drain down with no water in piping to do so........rather than a quick changeout of a compression valve that doesn't matter if water is slightly flowing through it or not.
You can only sweat all brass valves in, meaning the stem type, short of breaking down the valve.
I would have to see proof in writing from a michigan plumbing inspector to believe that crap. You apparently didn't tighten down your stop valve down tight enough, 5 years ago. Doesn't dictate the norm for the rest of the United States and abroad.
A compression fitting is a compression fitting, is a compression fitting. BOTH ARE HOLDING THE SAME PRESSURE.
On a side note: I always use those plastic chrome scussions that are cut down one side to pry on the piping AFTER you have your valve on. Never rusts, can get in the tightest of spots. Eliminates the need to install scussion first, even on old pipes.
Thanks for the comedy central skit........I needed a good laugh. :D

[jimbo]

I don't have Terry's experience, but I have been around the block. I have NEVER seen or even heard of a catastrophic failure of a compression connection. Drip, yes. I also like the idea of sweating on a make adapter and using a threaded valve: but I think you will have a drip on a thread joint just as often as on a compression job.
True, overtightening can damage the pipe. I see this all too often. Never saw it cause a leak, just hard to replace. This is where it is nice to solder on a male adapter.

Some places are all cast iron. Here it is all ABS and the world is not coming to an end for the 10% of the entire US population who live here.

[captwally]

Interesting thread..... I'm particularly interested in the question raised by mark and rugged that basically asks why a stop is allowed a compression on one end, but not the other? These are proven joints.

On an aside, I've lived in Florida most of my 39 years, but I did live in Michigan for almost 3 of them recently. Thank Heaven I'm back home, because Michigan really is like another planet, or some remote outpost above the Arctic Circle. Yes you really can build almost anything without a permit. 3 years is enough time to realize that they don't think like the rest of the world does, for the most part, anyway. I've encountered some really really scary plumbing (and electrical) scenarios up there! I'm not saying that this part of the country doesn't have its quirks and stuff, but....

[plumguy]

If I may add my two cents I also agree with the use of compression fittings. In 20+ years of experience I have never had any problems or need to try to avoid compression fittings. They are a standard,accepted and approved connection that has a great track record if installed PROPERLY... like anything else!!

[Cal]

I can't believe we are even having this discussion !!

Me too. 25 years, couple of drips, NEVER a blow off . However--Had MANY a threaded nipple break off in a wall or joint while trying to replace the cutoff.That's nice,,, Hanging face first over someone's piss laden toilet trying to get some 3/8" threads out of a fitting 5" back in a wall !!

GIVE ME COMPRESSION !!!!

[plumber1]

Terry is quite right. I.ve looked at compression stops since they came out.
They are so easy to use . Never, ever had one problem with them............

[thezster]

Wow - fascinating stuff.... Kind of makes up my mind on the new lavs I just finished roughing in. Got sweated caps on now till drywall.... think I'll run out and get some compression fittings for later.....

Though it took a while to figure it out on this thread...

[Karen1]

In 1988 I replumbed my 84-year-old heart pine house with copper (less prone to splitting when frozen in our exposed crawl spaces) using Copper-Bond for the joints because soldering under a fat lighter house is not a good idea. The next year, Hurricane Hugo pushed a wall of water through my town. Not one leak, even after all that pressure, which stove in the main hard duct for the heating/ac system (it looked like a crescent moon) and not one leak since.

As for getting into the joints, all you have to do is heat it briefly (I do use a torch for that) and the epoxy becomes brittle and breaks loose, leaving a very clean joint that can then be reglued, so there is no need to cut off the part of the pipe inside the joint as some have stated.

By the way, I keep 40-60 lbs of pressure in my system (we're on wells, so I can read it on the pump gauge) and never have had a problem with either the Copper-Bond joints or the compression joints at kitchen/bathroom sinks. I have, however, had a problem with thin-wall PVC (the line from the pump house to the house) when it's exposed to freezing or to sunlight for years. Schedule 40 is durable.

I'm moving the kitchen and need to replumb it, so I went looking for more Copper Bond and can't find it anywhere, nor had anyone even heard of it! What a pity, because it's so good.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Regarding the original thread NEVER EVER use epoxy, glue or any solvent on metal to metal.... it'll go from temperature expansion & contraction...copper expands & contracts at a completely different rate than plastic or other substances.
As for the never-ending debate on compression (yup...we debate that in my state too). The reason I was first taught to not use compression was it's not intended for use on harder type "L" copper, but inspectors pass it all the time.
I personally prefer to sweat the 1/2" inlet because I don't like the idea that I could possibly rotate it while tightening the 3/8" compression feeds...it's all a matter of personal taste.

When it comes to the older 3/8" threaded nipples...I use two channel locks and say a prayer before I start.
There are also the fine threaded 3/8" nipples that are mostly obsolete, but pop up in older homes...first thing I do is recommend to the homeowner they let me replace as much of it as they can afford...using reem adaptors.

[Marlon1957]

Copper-Bond Epoxy

Pacer Technology/Super Glue Corporation Copper-Bond Epoxy Adhesive (80583) is a unique 2-part epoxy system, which was developed specifically to join copper tubing and fittings for water systems. It works best on:

• Copper
• Stainless steel
• Aluminum
• Brass
• Bronze

• Chrome
• Galvanized steel

Copper-Bond epoxy has UL-approval for use in fire sprinkler systems using pipe from ¾” to 2” size, Type L or M, with a maximum system pressure of 175 psi. This thin film adhesive is designed to join two surfaces and is not appropriate for use as a patching material for leaks. The epoxy will not interfere with using the plumbing system for a ground and can be used with .002 to .020” gap.

PROPERTIES:

Initial color: R(white paste)/H(brown-yellow paste) Full Strength: 24 hours
Final color: Brown-copper Mix Ratio (parts by volume): 1:1
Working Time: 5 minutes Temperature Use Range: 360 to 1800 F
Handling Time: After 20 minutes (20 to 820C)


USE INSTRUCTIONS:
1. Assemble tools & materials: pipe, fittings, tubing cutter, abrasive cloth and copper pipe fitting brush. (Be sure to de-burr the pipe with a file).
2. Cut the tubing with a wheel cutter or hacksaw.
3. De-burr the pipe and clean the outside of the pipe with abrasive cloth.
4. Clean the inside of the fitting with a fitting brush.
5. Check the dry fit of the pipe: it should slide easily into the fitting. Dented or out-of-round parts should not be used and may result in leaks.
6. Open Copper-Bond syringe by cutting tips evenly across. Dispense on clean, flat disposable surface (such as cardboard). If product does not flow, use nail to puncture the skin, which sometimes forms on the inside. Copper-Bond must be mixed in equal parts by volume. If adhesive comes out unevenly at first, discard the unequal amount and dispense more Copper-Bond. Mix thoroughly until uniform in color (approximately 20-30 seconds of vigorous stirring).
7. Apply a heavy film of mixed product to the outside of pipe to the full depth of the joint.
8. Apply a thin film to the inside of the fitting. Do not leave any bare spots as this may cause a pinhole leak.
9. Insert pipe into fitting with a slight twist as you insert & wipe off excess Copper-Bond with a rag.
10. Copper-Bond sets in approximately 20 minutes. Before pressurizing, test the product you mixed with a fingernail: it should be hard. If it is not hard, wait longer and then retest. If product is not hard within one hour, it was not mixed in an equal part by volume. Take the joint apart and go back to Step #6.
11. Copper piping must be supported horizontally every ten feet, vertically every eight feet. In addition, Copper-Bond joints must not be disturbed during the cure time. It is good practice to flush a new piping system for 10 minutes before using any water from it.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

IPC UPC NPC and BOCA codes don't approve this product for new installations of piping systems.

[Herk]

I agree with the plumbers who use compression stops - I've been using them since 1966 on thousands of installations and have never, ever known one to have a catastrophic failure. I am leery of epoxy for that use, but I have never used it and really have no idea why I'd want to. These days, I use PEX pipe with copper stubouts, and I certainly wouldn't want to solder on the end of it with plastic on the other end.

Now there are other methods, such as the quick-connect, sharkbite-style stops (http://www.watts.com/pro/whatsnew/whatsnew_QCKwikStop.asp).

[farcast]

I came here looking for some info on copper bond epoxy - I'm using some copper pipe for a temporary application completely unrelated to home plumbing, and just was wondering what experiences people have had.

And instead, I'm going to add my take on compression fittings:
I hate them.

I have spent decades doing handyman jobs in rentals which were too small to call a plumber, and I have had to mess with compression fittings ten or twenty times. They leak, but not enough to call the plumber. So the homeowner or landlord tightens the thing, and ten years later it leaks again. My father broke a toilet tightening a leaky compression fitting under a toilet when his wrench slipped.

And sometimes when a compression fitting leaks ten years later, no one notices for ages and the floor rots out underneath it. The original plumber is probably retired by then, so he never hears about the $20k bathroom repair. (I think we had that happen 3 times. One time the tenant noticed the drip and "didn't want to bother" the landlord because it was so small!) You know, sometimes a "catastrophic" plumbing failure can be cheaper than a leak, because it is usually discovered right away.

A related problem: those satanic fittings under toilet with a permanently attached cheap corrugated metal pipe going to the toilet tank. Decades ago, toilet valves didn't last long, and after that corrugated metal thing had been bent a few times to replace the toilet valve, it would start to leak. And then when we tried to replace it with a quality ball valve and replaceable flexible tubing, we'd find a compression fitting. Funny thing about compression fittings: it's next to impossible to tighten them enough to prevent leaking the second or third time the fitting is taken apart, and no DIY guy has the tools to remove or replace the compression ring.

I no longer have to deal with rental units, but I've replaced or upgraded almost every fixture on my 1970's era home. I've had to open 6 or so compression fittings, and was only able to get one, JUST ONE, to reseal, and I bloodied my knuckles and crushed the copper into uranium doing it. The others? I just gave up, cut them off, and soldered on MNPT fittings. Not crazy about pipe thread either, but I've never had a problem.

My take: compression fittings may be wonderful for plumbers, but not for homeowners or landlords.

[Redwood]

I'd carry buckets before I used Copper Bond!

There are simply too many other good choices of things to use whether it is learning to sweat pipe, using compression fittings, or, SharkBites.

[Wally Hays]

Wow, talk about digging up the dead.

[Doherty Plumbing]

Who the h*ll uses copper bond and even considers themself a handyman let alone a professional?

[ballvalve]

I wonder why you plumbers are so afraid of epoxy? Is sweating pipe the last frontier of the trade to be taken away from you? Let us consider foundation bolt retrofitting, where a dirty piece of iron goes into an 1/8 to 1/4 " oversize hole. They test 4 to 10000 PSI and usually pull out the crappy cement before the bolt leaves the epoxy.

Now, a clean, abraded fitting and pipe, with a few thousanths clearance, cleaned with some acetone, and properly epoxied [pretty much the same standards for sweating] will be a joint just as good as a solder job, and not subject to earthquake forces. Unless your hot water runs over 200', the issue of heat expansion ratios is addressed in the epoxy formula.

I have a pile of lags and screws in old pressure tanks with JB weld and even some 99 cent chinese epoxy, and never had one leak after several years. The trick is in the prep and application.

That said, I am about all PEX now anyway, but would never travel without a torch and solder.... Getting ready to epoxy a tub shower valve stub outs to pex - no worry about heat or dissasembly to sweat. I'll report back if they blow out.

I'll bet granpa had a very hard time letting go of his oakum and lead pot when ABS came along too.

You guys all trust PVC cement - in Europe they laugh at that and use heat weld plastic joints.

[shacko]

>>>I wonder why you plumbers are so afraid of epoxy?<<<

Plumbers are not afraid of it, it is not allowed under most codes.

>>>I'll bet granpa had a very hard time letting go of his oakum and lead pot when ABS came along too<<<

You missed two eras, the copper pipe dwv and the STAINLESS STEEL dwv.

>>>You guys all trust PVC cement - in Europe they laugh at that and use heat weld plastic joints.<<<

You didn't give any real information, we heat weld plastic in the U.S.A. also, depends on the situation.

[ballvalve]

the copper DWV always overlapped the iron, and dont forget the brass era. Great pickings for a guy living in a shopping cart around old detroit neighborhoods.

Some rich imbeciles still use copper waste around here. Whats the SS dwv era? Nuclear power plants?

The only heat weld I know of in the USA is polyethlene in large sizes. But in parts of Europe all the DWV and supply is something like pvc where the joints are fit with heat guns. No fumes and no liquid dripping around the place.

I think some unions in the big [read;mafia] cities still use cast iron, which is nice since its quiet, but whats the point when its held together with rubber and clamps?