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gmrules
03-14-2009, 11:46 PM
anyone have any experience with this unit? does it work

500 bucks for up to 3 baths. 1000 for larger

here is link

http://www.hydrocareusa.com

any feedback would be cool

Thanks
George

Gary Slusser
03-15-2009, 11:56 AM
I can guarantee that it will lighten your wallet but your water quality will not be anywhere as good as softened water from a water softener.

gmrules
03-15-2009, 05:56 PM
will it take care of limescale?

sammyhydro11
03-15-2009, 06:31 PM
I would throw the idea of magnetic softening out the door. They don't work! You want a good water softener, i would check out this site i found. Good quality water softeners for cheap money and you could find a plumber to install it for you. If your handy, you could do it yourself, its way simple. I sell and install softeners myself, and the prices are so low on this site, i might actually start buying from them.

www.discountwatersofteners.com

sammy

www.tylerwellandpump.com

Gary Slusser
03-15-2009, 09:04 PM
If you are serious about finding a new supplier, you should talk to me.

Allen
06-03-2009, 12:27 PM
First of all, I have one in my house and am extremely happy with the unit. i even tested my upstairs sinks to see if the signal was traveling throughout the house and found that the signal was (I used a device that measures radio signals).
I know a bit about hard water and would point out that those disparaging the product are trying to sell more expensive water softeners. Also, if you look at the hydrocare website, they explain that they are not using magnets. That being said, it's not going to make your water feel soft like a water softener but it will prevent the scale as claimed. They have some real tests showing it works and they also offer a satisfaction guarantee so why not try it.

http://www.terrylove.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=7795&stc=1&d=1246468317

Gary Slusser
06-03-2009, 06:20 PM
Allen I'm happy for you and will simply say that my softener customers are happier because they get a number of other benefits form their softened water than just scale prevention and removable.

Scott D. Plumber
06-30-2009, 07:10 AM
Here's my thoughts; I hate soft water! Slimy skin, salt to deal with large expensive equipment to break down. No thanks. My water is terrible. I have an HC38 on the way. I read the testimonials (Non of which were from people who sell water sofenters) One was from a freind of mine that I trust. I'll try it.

I know the softener people say "You'll get used to it." Well I don't want to get used to it! Yuck. I'll bet that's what the big convict says to the little little convict when they get in the same cell. You'll get used to it.

http://www.terrylove.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=7795&stc=1&d=1246468317

99k
06-30-2009, 12:44 PM
I find it so interesting interesting that this is the FIRST POST for both Allen and Scott D Plumber ... what a coincidence. How fortunate this manufacturer is to have both these people come to the defense of this SNAKE OIL!

I'll tell you what, only when the equipment gets certified through a reputable organization such as the Water Quality Association and objective scientific studies get published will I give this any thought.

What a joke!! A simple radio signal and all the limescale just dissolves away ... yea right.:rolleyes:

Scott D. Plumber
06-30-2009, 06:55 PM
Actually Sport, I have been an advisor on ****.com for about 15 years. (name not allowed on this site) I just found this forum while looking around the internet for more info on this product and thought I’d weigh in. I assume that’s acceptable to you. Now it’s the web, and people can make up what they want, however I have been in this field since 1984. I have held a master plumber, gas fitter and pipe fitter card since 1998. I have run pipe many people have not even heard of including several different types of acid waste including Durion, Glass, Fuseal and Enfield, soldered up to 6” copper on hotel jobs, run Cast iron to 16” including lead and oakum joints and no hub as well as compression, stainless steel, all the plastics for waste and water and even sprinkler. I have run a small repair company and school, college and other commercial project s and have served as a project manager and estimator in Richmond Va for major outfits, am a radiant floor heating designer and consultant as well as a trainer for a major tankless water heater.

So, I think my opinion counts for a little something. I too have seen things come and go (Quest) and seen promises not live up to expectations. However if everyone had their head up their butt and refused to try new things in the field you sir would still be riding a horse to work and screwing galvanized pipe together. (Which I have also done)
I advise anyone to keep an open mind on things and do their own homework! Instead of just spouting off something negative because you wish to show how smart you are.

I don’t know much more about this thing than you, however I do know someone who has it and wears by it that I trust. Once mine is in, I’ll report back. My guess is some people will still disregard it and that’s fine. It’s a free country...at least for a little while longer. Have a nice day.

http://www.terrylove.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=7795&stc=1&d=1246468317



Scott D. Plumber,
****.com doesn't allow my name either.
Terry Love

99k
06-30-2009, 08:05 PM
Actually Sport, I have been an advisor on ****.com for about 15 years. (name not allowed on this site) I just found this forum while looking around the internet for more info on this product and thought I’d weigh in. I assume that’s acceptable to you. Now it’s the web, and people can make up what they want, however I have been in this field since 1984. I have held a master plumber, gas fitter and pipe fitter card since 1998. I have run pipe many people have not even heard of including several different types of acid waste including Durion, Glass, Fuseal and Enfield, soldered up to 6” copper on hotel jobs, run Cast iron to 16” including lead and oakum joints and no hub as well as compression, stainless steel, all the plastics for waste and water and even sprinkler. I have run a small repair company and school, college and other commercial project s and have served as a project manager and estimator in Richmond Va for major outfits, am a radiant floor heating designer and consultant as well as a trainer for a major tankless water heater.

So, I think my opinion counts for a little something. I too have seen things come and go (Quest) and seen promises not live up to expectations. However if everyone had their head up their butt and refused to try new things in the field you sir would still be riding a horse to work and screwing galvanized pipe together. (Which I have also done)
I advise anyone to keep an open mind on things and do their own homework! Instead of just spouting off something negative because you wish to show how smart you are.

I don’t know much more about this thing than you, however I do know someone who has it and wears by it that I trust. Once mine is in, I’ll report back. My guess is some people will still disregard it and that’s fine. It’s a free country...at least for a little while longer. Have a nice day.

My you are a sensitive thing ... with all that knowledge, I would have thought by now you'd have answered numerous threads ... but instead heldout for this incredible breakthrough.

Nothing personal, but have you ever heard the old cliche "if it's too good to be true...". Does it work ... I doubt it!

My background is Engineering ... show me the data (not a silly testamonial). Oh, and I loved the video (again no data ... just a slick animation of the limescale melting like butter on a stove).

If you buy this equipment, then you are just supporting this wacho science. I'll bet you could also find a time machine transport system if you googled it.:rolleyes:

speedbump
07-01-2009, 11:41 AM
I can tell you stories about customers and friends buying these things. None of their stories had happy endings. 99K hit it right on the head. If it seems too good to be true, it is.

I don't care what you hook up to a pipe, the mineral is still in the water and it will still stick to whatever it wants to. With or without that device.

A lot of us argue and bicker on this Forum a lot, because we have differing opinions about things, but you are going to have to get up a lot earlier in the morning to get this to fly with these guys.

We might be ugly; but we ain't stupid.

Gary Slusser
07-01-2009, 04:08 PM
I haven't seen that specific model in use but I have seen a few other electronic anti-scale descale devices with wires you wrap around the pipe on both sides of the thing that did change the water.

They caused a white powdery film on surfaces where the water was allowed to evaporate on; shower doors and walls, counters, sinks, they all looked like talcum power was blown all over them.

So IMO there is something to them but no one knows how they do whatever they do to water and none of them do it all the time or in all locations on all different waters.

Someday someone might be doing something and have one of those AHHA! light goes on moments and all will be explained. Like long run out landslides that scientists saw evidence all over the world but said since no one could prove a landslide was responsible, they denied it and ruined careers of those that insisted it was.

Kinda like we thought stomach ulcers were caused by worry etc. until some guy down under finally proved his theory that it was a bacteria, Heliobacter Pylori bacteria to be specific; found in groundwater.

Allen
07-01-2009, 06:18 PM
honestly, i don't understand this but someone said that there was no explanation how it works. here's a link http://www.hydrocareusa.com/content/technology/

again, not sure i understand it but there's also a tab on their site to a couple of independent tests - that means a lot more to me than the testimonials they post.

99k
07-01-2009, 06:51 PM
I looked the first time, I will not look again. Just keep planting links in this thread to drive traffic up web traffic and improve the google rating ... no thanks.

Gary Slusser
07-01-2009, 08:14 PM
honestly, i don't understand this but someone said that there was no explanation how it works. here's a link http://www.hydrocareusa.com/content/technology/

again, not sure i understand it but there's also a tab on their site to a couple of independent tests - that means a lot more to me than the testimonials they post.
That was me.

I went to the site and the first thing I saw was Theory of Operation. A theory is an unproven educated guess at best. The link to Tests Results then says Testimonials. A testimonial can be easily faked but it is supposed to be from someone that has used the product etc..

speedbump
07-02-2009, 05:08 AM
I think I'll wait for the documentary.

terrydbhm
07-13-2009, 07:49 AM
Hello, I am also a new poster to this forum. I found this while doing research on the Hydrocare products. I have been in the commercial POU water filtration business for almost 8 years and am investigating hard water treatment products to offer my customers other than the traditional salt brine technology.

I am not a “plant” by Hydrocare, but I am going to defend them, based upon my research, against those on this forum who have made unsubstantiated claims that this product is a “scam” .

First of all no one on this forum who made negative comments have indicated that they any first hand knowledge of the Hydrocare products. They have not stated that they have either tested the products in their business or homes or even know anyone who has. I am in the process of testing one of the HC-44 units in my home.

Secondly, I have not read where anyone has directly contacted those who offer testimonials on the product, but some question the legitimacy of the testimonials. I have directly communicated with most of the Hydrocare provided testimonial providers to verify their legitimacy. I am satisfied that they are all real customers and/or dealers of the products. They all have used Hydrocare in their homes and businesses and stand by the claims made in the testimonials. Several are water treatment dealers and plumbers and report that their customers are just as satisfied with the Hydrocare product and claims.

Thirdly, about the claims about phony independent research studies on the product, specifically about the study done by OnSpex; I have read and verified the complete report and conclusions on this testing done to determine if the Hydrocare technology will prevent lime scale build up on tank less water heaters. This report has both before and after pictures of the test subjects and concludes that after 90 days the unit with no hard water treatment had significant lime scale build up and water flow reductions while the unit with the Hydrocare HC-38 had no lime scale build up or water flow reduction.

Finally, In my opinion many of the negative comments on this forum and others are being made by individuals who either sell of have some vested interests in the traditional salt brine water softeners industry and may feel threatened by this new technology. Imagine how horse buggy builders felt threatened, by the first automobiles. To label Hydrocare a scam without first hand experience or doing proper due diligence is wrong and if any thing borders on liable.

speedbump
07-13-2009, 08:53 AM
To label Hydrocare a scam without first hand experience or doing proper due diligence is wrong and if any thing borders on liable.
It's amazing that two of you have just popped in here advertising this product out of the blue. But it's more amazing that you would pop into a Forum and threaten a bunch of knowledgable guys with liable.

When you have some real proof, you can then try to impress the rest of us with this product.

terrydbhm
07-13-2009, 09:32 AM
It's amazing that two of you have just popped in here advertising this product out of the blue. But it's more amazing that you would pop into a Forum and threaten a bunch of knowledgeable guys with liable.

When you have some real proof, you can then try to impress the rest of us with this product.

I am not threatening anyone with liable, but I will ask the questions again. Have you personally used this product, know anyone who has used it or talked to any end user who has provided testimonials about the product? Have you seen the independent research done on this product and/or talked to the researchers about their findings?

I am currently testing Hydrocare on my home and have talked with end users, dealers and researchers on this product and in my humble opinion find nothing to discredit the claims they make.

I guess you are like the old buggy manufactures and are threatened by this new technology. It seems to me that "you bunch of knowledgeable guys " need to open up your minds to the possibility that there may be some thing better than dumping salt brine down our sewer systems and into the environment in the treatment of hard water and lime scale.

speedbump
07-13-2009, 09:53 AM
I am not a “plant” by Hydrocare
Your making it harder and harder for me to believe the above statement.

terrydbhm
07-13-2009, 10:24 AM
Your making it harder and harder for me to believe the above statement.

I am beginning to think you are the "plant" for some water softener dealer association. hmmmmm. Still no answer to my three basic questions??

speedbump
07-13-2009, 11:09 AM
I am beginning to think you are the "plant" for some water softener dealer association. hmmmmm. Still no answer to my three basic questions??

I'm just ribbing you. I hope you don't think I'm actually going to debate this with you.

99k
07-14-2009, 06:10 AM
Finally, In my opinion many of the negative comments on this forum and others are being made by individuals who either sell of have some vested interests in the traditional salt brine water softeners industry and may feel threatened by this new technology. Imagine how horse buggy builders felt threatened, by the first automobiles. To label Hydrocare a scam without first hand experience or doing proper due diligence is wrong and if any thing borders on liable.

I made negative / skeptical comments and I'm not threatened by newer technology that would obsolete brine ... why should I be? The WC&P recently published a story about alternate technologies to tradional softening and the results were very clear ... IT DOES NOT WORK. Even if you read a few positive testimonials, the claims were very subjective and the people making the testimonials just weren't too sure about the results ... very subjective "feel good" comments that had no scientific data. If you are a member of the WQA, the code of ethics clearly states that thou shall not market any products without factual data and verifiable scientifically valid test procedures. No data ... no sales.

terrydbhm
07-14-2009, 11:37 AM
I made negative / skeptical comments and I'm not threatened by newer technology that would obsolete brine ... why should I be? The WC&P recently published a story about alternate technologies to tradional softening and the results were very clear ... IT DOES NOT WORK. Even if you read a few positive testimonials, the claims were very subjective and the people making the testimonials just weren't too sure about the results ... very subjective "feel good" comments that had no scientific data. If you are a member of the WQA, the code of ethics clearly states that thou shall not market any products without factual data and verifiable scientifically valid test procedures. No data ... no sales.

I am sure that both WC&P and WQA did certifiable scientific studies on Hydrocare technology so what they tell their members must be the truth. . . come on. As others have said in this forum independent research (not controlled by WQA) has been done and the results verified that this technology does prevent and remove limescale buildup as claimed by its manufacture. The WQA is also the same water softener dealer lobby group that is fighting any legislation by state and local governments to control or ban the salt discharges by water softeners into our environment. I am still wondering why they call themselves the "Water Quality" Association.:confused:

terrydbhm
07-22-2009, 05:48 AM
So if, for academic purposes, we can agree that "they" reduce, remove, and inhibit calcium carbonate scale build up in plumbing, then great. However, I have never had one customer or prospect request my services to "get rid" of the scale build up in there pipes. Mostly because there is little or no evidence that there is that problem.

People request water treatment for all the other benefits (won't dribble on those) associated with water softening, which scale inhibitors can not manage, thus causing customers to become very disappointed in expectations of their amazing no-salt product.

Besides, how DO you determine that it IS working? Cut your plumbing up every six moths to inspect scale reduction? You can't tell by seeing fewer spots on dishes, shower walls, or less rusty toilets, soap use, softer fabrics...oops, I'm dribbling again...all the things that consumers appreciate and want and whose benefits are noticed immediately.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

Hi Andy,

I do not have the long experience in water softening that you have, however I can report on my personal observation after one week of installing the HC-44 Hydrocare unit. It appears that we are getting most of the benefits that traditional salt brine water softeners provide that you have said above we would not notice to determine if the hard water is truly being treated by the Hydropath technology. The one big negative for us that we are not getting is that slimy never feeling clean feeling when we shower. I am keeping a weekly journal of our observations and following is the first week. I know this is not scientific but again it is just our observations.

Thank you

Terry Doane
Alabama Pure Water Company.

Background:

1. Hydrocare HC-44 unit installed on July 15, 2009 on cold water line to water heater. Total installation time took less than 5 minutes.

2. Our Home is 4 ½ years old with no previous water treatment and is 2700 sq feet with full 3 bathrooms.

3. Our city Water has a TDS of 168 ppm and 12 grains of hardness per gallon.

4. We have had experience in a previous home with salt brine water softeners and both my wife and I did not like the slimy never feeling clean feel on our skin of the treated water.

Weekly results:

End of week one:
• Noticed immediate personal hygiene changes that included less shampoo on hair and both my wife and I believe our hair and skin to be softer feeling. The hand soap lathers more without the slimy feel like our previous water softener. I have stopped using my hair conditioner as well.
• We have a black mate finish granite sink in the kitchen that no longer has white water spots and film. The white film that previously built up in the sink and around the base of the plumbing fixtures has not reappeared after initial cleaning. In the past we had to clean with Kaboom product weekly. (I will miss Billy Mays he got us started on Kaboom years ago.)
• Stopped using Jet dry in dishwasher and found no water spots on glassware or dishes.
• Our master bath has antique bronze finish on plumbing fixtures and the shower glass frame. Prior to test we cleaned the shower with Kaboom to remove any old lime scale build up, something we had to do on a weekly basis prior to test. Noticed very few hard water spots on shower glass and none on the dark frame. There is no need to clean with Kaboom at this time.
• The toilet in the less used basement bathroom had a hard water ring in it prior to test and noticed that it has disappeared after 6 days of Hydrocare installation.

terrydbhm
07-23-2009, 06:16 AM
I'll remain in the business that I know works and causes successful solutions to real water issues proven over and over. Good luck on your water.
Andy

Andy,

In an earlier post you stated:

"So if, for academic purposes, we can agree that "they" reduce, remove, and inhibit calcium carbonate scale build up in plumbing, then great. However, I have never had one customer or prospect request my services to "get rid" of the scale build up in there pipes. Mostly because there is little or no evidence that there is that problem.

People request water treatment for all the other benefits (won't dribble on those) associated with water softening, which scale inhibitors can not manage, thus causing customers to become very disappointed in expectations of their amazing no-salt product."
If inhibiting hard water scale build up in pipes, water heaters and appliances is not the main reason for installing water softener, then what is? Salt brine softeners do a great job in inhibiting future scale build up but they do not remove already present scale in the plumbing systems.

There is still no way to get around the biggest downside to salt brine water softeners, what to do with the salt brine discharges into our sewers and eventually environment from all of the frequent recharging necessary to soften the hard water. I am sure that you are or should be that many states and local municipalities have or are debating legislation to limit or ban entirely salt discharges into public sewer systems. California is debating a bill this summer that will allow all cities to set limits or ban entirely salt discharges from home water softeners. Already several California cities have banned salt water softener uses and new installation. Other states like Arizona, Oregon, Washington and Michigan are debating similar legislation. In 2001 Texas banned water softener salt discharges into all on site sewer systems, (septic tanks) because of the salt pollution going into the ground water.

I do hope that your business continues to thrive in Ohio as I am sure your company and you are good to work and deal with. I believe that in the future unless alternatives to disposing safely the salt water discharges are found the traditional salt water softener may be on an endangered species list.

Finally to the uninformed naysayers about the Hydropath technology. I remember when Billy Mays first went on TV promoting a product that would remove stains and whiten whites without chlorine bleach and its bad side effects. A friend of mine was a regional brand manager for Clorox and he predicted this product would never be accepted by the public and would be proven to be a scam. He even said his company had tested the product and it didn't work as advertised. After all it was being pitched on late night TV with all the other scams. That product is now on every laundry shopping isle across the country and is now a household word, OXICLEAN. In fact Clorox has even produced their own version of this product but lags way behind OXICLEAN in market share. In OXICLEAN's early days Clorox debated even buying out OXIclean but again decided it would never catch on. After all Clorox was a tried and proven product that had been around forever and that consumers would never change. It took a long time before my wife would try it in our laundry, but once she did we never bought chlorine bleach again.

terrydbhm
07-28-2009, 06:59 AM
My Home Hydrocare Test Results


Background:

1. Hydrocare HC-44 unit installed on July 15, 2009 on cold water line to water heater. This is the manufacture’s recommended installation location as it will provide the strongest signal directly into the water heater. According to Hydrocare, their technology works both up and down stream and is not dependant upon any water flow and thusly it will provide whole house hard water treatment from the water heater installation. Total installation time took less than 5 minutes.

2. Our Home is 4 ½ years old with no previous water treatment and is 2700 sq feet with full 3 bathrooms.

3. Our city Water has a TDS of 168 ppm and 12 grains of hardness per gallon.

4. We have had experience in a previous home with salt brine water softeners and both my wife and I did not like the slimy never feeling clean feel on our skin of the treated water. Some people think the slimy feel is a clean feel but most of the people I know with salt water softeners give this as their biggest complaint. One friend of mine says “it’s like you can not rinse off the soap”.

Weekly Results and Observations:

End of week one:
• Noticed immediate personal hygiene product changes that included less shampoo on hair and both my wife and I believe our hair and skin to be softer feeling. The hand soap lathers more without the slimy feel like our previous water softener. I have stopped using my hair conditioner as well.
• We have a black mate finish granite sink in the kitchen that no longer has white water spots and film. The white film that previously built up in the sink and around the base of the plumbing fixtures has not reappeared after initial cleaning. In the past we had to clean with Kaboom product weekly. (I will miss Billy Mays he got us started on Kaboom years ago.)
• Stopped using Jet dry in dishwasher and found no water spots on glassware or dishes.
• Our master bath has antique bronze finish on plumbing fixtures and the shower glass frame. Prior to test we cleaned the shower with Kaboom to remove any old lime scale build up, something we had to do on a weekly basis prior to test. Noticed very few hard water spots on shower glass and none on the dark frame. There is no need to clean with Kaboom at this time.
• The toilet in the less used basement bathroom had a hard water ring in it prior to test and noticed that it has disappeared after 6 days of Hydrocare installation.

Week Two:
• Pretty much the same observations as in week one with some exceptions as noted.
• Did notice some evaporative spotting in the shower glass in the master bath. Having talked with other Hydrocare users, this is to be expected for the first month or so, as the Hydrocare unit is removing the old built up lime scale which passes through the shower in solution with the water. The big difference VS the untreated water before, is that the evaporative spots DO NOT stick to the glass but can be removed with a damp cloth with out the use of Kaboom or other harsher cleaning chemicals. The spots are more of a powdery residue instead of a hard scaly build up.
• The built up lime scale on our shower head has reduced by about 50% in the 2 weeks.
• On Saturday, I washed my wife’s car which is dark charcoal grey color and I noticed hardly any water spots on the car. Before Hydrocare I would wash the car in the driveway and then pull into the garage to dry to avoid water spots. The few water spots this time were like the spots in the shower and came off with a damp towel.

crush
07-28-2009, 10:25 AM
I really want to believe that this Hydrocare system works, but having a tough time. The unit attaches to a cold water pipe and uses radio waves. That's fine and has been debated already. The claim that jumps out at me is this one:

• The toilet in the less used basement bathroom had a hard water ring in it prior to test and noticed that it has disappeared after 6 days of Hydrocare installation.

So, I am to believe that the radio wave extends all the way to a toilet bowl and breaks down existing scale? I'm not a plumber but I am sure that there is no connection between the water sitting in a toilet bowl and the supply water pipe. Even if you flush, the incoming water itself can break down scale?

If someone can explain this, I would appreciate it.

terrydbhm
07-28-2009, 10:42 AM
I really want to believe that this Hydrocare system works, but having a tough time. The unit attaches to a cold water pipe and uses radio waves. That's fine and has been debated already. The claim that jumps out at me is this one:

• The toilet in the less used basement bathroom had a hard water ring in it prior to test and noticed that it has disappeared after 6 days of Hydrocare installation.

So, I am to believe that the radio wave extends all the way to a toilet bowl and breaks down existing scale? I'm not a plumber but I am sure that there is no connection between the water sitting in a toilet bowl and the supply water pipe. Even if you flush, the incoming water itself can break down scale?

If someone can explain this, I would appreciate it.

I can not explain it but all I am doing is keeping a record of my observations and reporting the same. After 2 weeks the hard water ring has not reappeared, In this one toilet I am not doing any other cleaning just to see what happens.

crush
07-28-2009, 10:52 AM
I can not explain it but all I am doing is keeping a record of my observations and reporting the same. After 2 weeks the hard water ring has not reappeared, In this one toilet I am not doing any other cleaning just to see what happens.

You are changing your claim now. First you reported that the toilet bowl ring 'disappeared after 6 days'. Now you are saying that the 'hard water ring has not reappeared'.

Terry
07-28-2009, 11:19 AM
I'm guessing that a women cleaned the toilet.
Yes men, these things do not clean themselves.

Just like engines don't check their own oil either,

crush
07-28-2009, 03:37 PM
I'm guessing that a women cleaned the toilet.
Yes men, these things do not clean themselves.

Just like engines don't check their own oil either,


LOL, never thought of that angle!

terrydbhm
07-29-2009, 05:41 AM
You are changing your claim now. First you reported that the toilet bowl ring 'disappeared after 6 days'. Now you are saying that the 'hard water ring has not reappeared'.

I guess I didn't state that correctly the ring disappeared and has not reappeared since. I can also guarantee that my wife didn't clean the basement toilet as that is one of my "chores":(

crush
07-29-2009, 12:52 PM
I guess I didn't state that correctly the ring disappeared and has not reappeared since. I can also guarantee that my wife didn't clean the basement toilet as that is one of my "chores":(

Just so I am clear, the original existing scale in toilet was removed by cleaning, not the Hydrocare?

terrydbhm
07-30-2009, 05:46 AM
Just so I am clear, the original existing scale in toilet was removed by cleaning, not the Hydrocare?

I do not know how much more clear I can make this, but I will try.

When I started the test this particular toilet had a hard water ring in the bowl. I did not clean it as I wanted to see what effect if any the Hydrocare unit would have. As I reported in my first weekly post; "The toilet in the less used basement bathroom had a hard water ring in it prior to test and I noticed that it has disappeared after 6 days of Hydrocare installation."
I have not cleaned that toilet at any time during the test just to see if the hard water ring would reappear which so far has not happened.

Terry Doane

crush
07-30-2009, 10:20 AM
I do not know how much more clear I can make this, but I will try.

When I started the test this particular toilet had a hard water ring in the bowl. I did not clean it as I wanted to see what effect if any the Hydrocare unit would have. As I reported in my first weekly post; "The toilet in the less used basement bathroom had a hard water ring in it prior to test and I noticed that it has disappeared after 6 days of Hydrocare installation."
I have not cleaned that toilet at any time during the test just to see if the hard water ring would reappear which so far has not happened.

Terry Doane

Thanks Terry, it's your use of the word reappear that threw me off.

I hope there is someone out there, perhaps someone from Hydrocare, that can explain how their product can remove existing scale (hard water ring) from a toilet bowl.

terrydbhm
07-30-2009, 12:18 PM
Thanks Terry, it's your use of the word reappear that threw me off.

I hope there is someone out there, perhaps someone from Hydrocare, that can explain how their product can remove existing scale (hard water ring) from a toilet bowl.

My best guess from my limited knowledge is that it works in the same way that lime scale is removed from the inside of a water heater or a dishwasher. The treated water with the changed calcium ions are passed into the toilet bowl causing the existing lime scale to join with them and decalcify the bowl and pass out in the waste water. This same principle would explain why users of the Hydrocare units report that the calcium build up inside dishwashers will be eliminated over a period of time. The water passing into the toilet is no different than the water passing into the dishwasher as it too has no longer a direct contact with the plumbing. I have seen before and after pictures of the inside of a stainless steel dishwasher with a lot of preexisting scale from a Hydrocare user in Arizona and they are amazing in that the after pictures have no lime scale buildup left in the dishwasher.

crush
07-30-2009, 06:30 PM
Since the Hydrocare does not come into direct contact with the water (like a filter or conventional softener) it seems that if you tested for hard water before using, you would still have hard water after. Is that the case? Does the water still contain the calcium and magnesium, but it is in a state that keeps it from building on surfaces (scale).

terrydbhm
07-31-2009, 05:45 AM
Since the Hydrocare does not come into direct contact with the water (like a filter or conventional softener) it seems that if you tested for hard water before using, you would still have hard water after. Is that the case? Does the water still contain the calcium and magnesium, but it is in a state that keeps it from building on surfaces (scale).

Hydrocare does not soften the water like a traditional water softener, in that the calcium and magnesium ions are still in the water, nor does it change the chemical composition of the water. Hydrocare works on a physical basis that treats the whole house plumbing system and prevents the scale from building up and also works to remove the existing scale. Some may disagree, but preventing the lime scale buildup in home plumbing, water heaters and appliances and eliminating the early lime scale caused failure of these systems is the main reason for installing a traditional water softener. If this same benefit can be achieved with the Hydrocare technology without the use of environmentally unfriendly salt or chemicals, wouldn't it make sense to use it?:D


So they answer to your question is yes the water is still "technically hard", but the calcium and magnesium ions are physically put into a state that keeps them from building up on surfaces.

Scott D. Plumber
08-01-2009, 05:25 AM
I'm two weeks in. I have had aerators plugged up by the removed scale (two year old house), dishes are now spotless, inside of SS dishwasher is cleaner that it has been since the first use.

My chrome shower valves which used to be almost white are almost completely clean now. I started by wiping them while showering with a wet washcloth and they were getting shiny fast, so I cleaned them with a deliming cleaner and removed almost all of the scale. (Stuff’s hard to get off!) Also cleaned around kitchen sink to remove scale and got most of it. (Dang that stuff is hard to get off!)

So far there is no additional build up at all. If water dries it will leave a fine powder (Yes, the harness is still there) but it does not stick to anything and easily wipes away instead of turning to cement.

I believe that there are plenty of issues that this device will not help with (Such as PH issues), however, if scale is the main problem, so far, I have to say it’s working and doing what it said it would do. My Rinnai tankless water heater have never been de-scaled. They are 2 years old and do not have my water hardness since I have not done a test.

Now if I can get the scale out of the black drip tray of the water dispenser on my fridge that would really be a test! Any ideas?

99k
08-01-2009, 06:20 AM
I'm two weeks in. I have had aerators plugged up by the removed scale (two year old house), dishes are now spotless, inside of SS dishwasher is cleaner that it has been since the first use.

My chrome shower valves which used to be almost white are almost completely clean now. I started by wiping them while showering with a wet washcloth and they were getting shiny fast, so I cleaned them with a deliming cleaner and removed almost all of the scale. (Stuff’s hard to get off!) Also cleaned around kitchen sink to remove scale and got most of it. (Dang that stuff is hard to get off!)

So far there is no additional build up at all. If water dries it will leave a fine powder (Yes, the harness is still there) but it does not stick to anything and easily wipes away instead of turning to cement.

I believe that there are plenty of issues that this device will not help with (Such as PH issues), however, if scale is the main problem, so far, I have to say it’s working and doing what it said it would do. My Rinnai tankless water heater have never been de-scaled. They are 2 years old and do not have my water hardness since I have not done a test.

Now if I can get the scale out of the black drip tray of the water dispenser on my fridge that would really be a test! Any ideas?

Are you the author of the book in your avatar?

Gary Slusser
08-01-2009, 10:44 AM
By clicking on his avatar, I think he is the author. It takes you to his homepage;
http://www.profitableplumbing.com/ where you can buy a copy of it.

terrydbhm
08-02-2009, 06:52 AM
I'm two weeks in. I have had aerators plugged up by the removed scale (two year old house), dishes are now spotless, inside of SS dishwasher is cleaner that it has been since the first use.

My chrome shower valves which used to be almost white are almost completely clean now. I started by wiping them while showering with a wet washcloth and they were getting shiny fast, so I cleaned them with a deliming cleaner and removed almost all of the scale. (Stuff’s hard to get off!) Also cleaned around kitchen sink to remove scale and got most of it. (Dang that stuff is hard to get off!)

So far there is no additional build up at all. If water dries it will leave a fine powder (Yes, the harness is still there) but it does not stick to anything and easily wipes away instead of turning to cement.

I believe that there are plenty of issues that this device will not help with (Such as PH issues), however, if scale is the main problem, so far, I have to say it’s working and doing what it said it would do. My Rinnai tankless water heater have never been de-scaled. They are 2 years old and do not have my water hardness since I have not done a test.

Now if I can get the scale out of the black drip tray of the water dispenser on my fridge that would really be a test! Any ideas?

Scott, you have done something that the naysayers in this forum will probably never do, get a Hydrocare unit and test it for themselves before they criticise and downplay its positive benefits. I think your testimony and plumbing background speaks for itself and you can not be accused of being a plant for Hydrocare like I have been. Maybe the "bunch of knowledgable guys" in this forum might just learn something, but I do not hold out much hope. I am well into my third week and am still amazed at how this little unit attached to my water pipe works so well.

Since you have a Rinnai tankless water heater, you might find this interesting. I have talked with 2 Rinnai distributors in the South and East Coast who now recommend to all of their plumbing installers that a Hydrocare unit be installed with all new Rinnai installations. By the way both of them have no connections with Hydrocare and only recommend the installation to prevent problems down the road with their customers. In both cases they were skeptical at first of the technology, but after buying units and trying them out in their own homes and doing very a complete investigation into other tests and research they became believers.

You mentioned how hard it is to remove the hard water build up on on the plumbing fixtures and the drip tray in the Fridge. I have been an avid user of a product introduced by Billy Mays, Kaboom and it works great on hard-water scale. I use to use it every week on our shower glass doors, but since the installation of my Hydrocare unit I have not it used once. I hope I do not I get accused of being a plant for Kaboom!:p

Gary Slusser
08-02-2009, 10:12 AM
When you wipe off the shower walls and door, you prevent any water spots or scale formation.

So if you want to test this thing, stop wiping the water off things as you obviously didn't do in the past or you wouldn't have been using Kaboom, right? Then let us know how much 'dust' you let build up before wiping it up.

terrydbhm
08-02-2009, 11:47 AM
When you wipe off the shower walls and door, you prevent any water spots or scale formation.

So if you want to test this thing, stop wiping the water off things as you obviously didn't do in the past or you wouldn't have been using Kaboom, right? Then let us know how much 'dust' you let build up before wiping it up.

Gary, I do not know about Scott but I have not been wiping down the shower glass doors or walls during my test. Except at the end of week 2, I had a few spots that I wiped down with a damp cloth to remove the powder like spots from the glass. The spots were nothing like what I got on a weekly basis before the Hydrocare installation. The spots were very light and hardly noticeable maybe 5% or less of what I got before. Before hydrocare the water scale spots could not have been removed with just a damp cloth, as I had to use a strong chemical like Kaboom and a lot of elbow grease to get the cement like spots off the glass every week.

terrydbhm
08-04-2009, 05:55 AM
Week Three:
• The very minimal evaporative spotting on the shower glass is about the same as the end of week 2. This week I did not make any attempts to remove the spots with a damp cloth as last week. My observation is that the powdery spots from using the shower the previous day are washed away by the next days shower and do not accumulate any more than just the one day’s use.
• One regret is that I did not measure the temperature of our hot water prior to the test. Both my wife and I have noticed that in our shower the water temperature setting on the shower control has to be set lower than before the test, which is indicative of hotter water. If this is the case I can assume that much of the scale build up on the heat exchanger in the water heater has already been removed which will make the unit much more energy efficient.
• The lime scale on our shower head is now almost totally gone.
• Have not seen any lime scale build up returning to any of our appliances and plumbing fixtures. This is really noticeable on the black kitchen sink and faucet which has been an ongoing issue for years. See my reference to this issue in week one’s summary.
:)

lmckenty
08-07-2009, 10:25 AM
I bought two units, one for my home and one for my pool. I saw results with my pool first. I have rocks around our hot tub with a waterfall. The daily running water built up scale on the rocks. After 3 months after installing the unit the scale started to disappear and the rocks became the correct color. The unit in our home has helped my showers and dishwasher. It takes time but I have seen the results.

ecarothe
08-11-2009, 10:42 AM
This device only emits a radio frequency into the plumbing system. There are no moving parts. So why do they only offer a 3 year limited warranty for a $1000 investment? I asked them to send me the independant labratory results including before and after pictures.

I'm all for trying something new, but this price is too high to have it break or loose it's effectiveness after 3 years. Any thoughts, please comment.

terrydbhm
08-11-2009, 12:01 PM
This device only emits a radio frequency into the plumbing system. There are no moving parts. So why do they only offer a 3 year limited warranty for a $1000 investment? I asked them to send me the independant labratory results including before and after pictures.

I'm all for trying something new, but this price is too high to have it break or loose it's effectiveness after 3 years. Any thoughts, please comment.

I do not know where you got the pricing of $1000? The suggested retail price for the HC-44 unit is only $645 and some dealers are selling them for around $600. I do not know who you asked about for the independent lab results but it is available online and Onspex will also send you copies.

As for the warranty I have no answer as to why for only 3 years, but with no moving parts it should last for many more. The manufacturer also offers a one year 100% money back satisfaction guarantee as well.

dooh
10-11-2009, 01:56 PM
Ok, i am not a plumber at all or claim to even know much about it.

I am a noob.

I was researching this hydrocare thing and found this site.

You are all talking way above my head, but.......

I do agree with the "plant" theory because

1) Mr. Alabama Pure Water Company...Why cant I find a hit on Google or Bing for your company?????? What is your web site address? Let me guess, you dont have one and if I send my cousin into your actual location in Alabama (if it exists) I bet you would be selling this HydroCrap.

2) The - How to make millions in plumbing - guy - why are the plumbers on this site not filthy rich???

3) What kind of company does not even put a price on their product on the website?? Why do I have to be "Contacted" by some shady Slick guy just to ask the price??

4) If this product is Soooo Great! why does my local Major Harware company not carry it next to the other water products??

I am tending to side with those ACTUAL plumber that are on this forum.

Thanks Guys for all your advice.

**PS i forgot to mention that Scott and Alabama are on each others "Friends" list ??? Nice!

terrydbhm
10-12-2009, 06:21 AM
Ok, i am not a plumber at all or claim to even know much about it.


1) Mr. Alabama Pure Water Company...Why cant I find a hit on Google or Bing for your company?????? What is your web site address? Let me guess, you dont have one and if I send my cousin into your actual location in Alabama (if it exists) I bet you would be selling this HydroCrap.

2) The - How to make millions in plumbing - guy - why are the plumbers on this site not filthy rich???

3) What kind of company does not even put a price on their product on the website?? Why do I have to be "Contacted" by some shady Slick guy just to ask the price??

4) If this product is Soooo Great! why does my local Major Harware company not carry it next to the other water products??

**PS i forgot to mention that Scott and Alabama are on each others "Friends" list ??? Nice!

Here we go another possible first time poster who may in fact be a "Plant" who feels like he should make personal attacks to make his point. Notice his attacks are directed at only Scott the Plumber and myself.

I also would like to adress your attack talking points.

1) You say you Googled my company and couldn't find my website, funny thing I just Googled Alabama Pure Water and guess what my website came up first in the list of hits. (Andy, thank you for posting it for me). Please send your cousin to my business as I do sell Hydrocare as a result of my investigation of the product and personal use of it in my own home. I already have several very satisfied homeowner Hydrocare customers. I also have a couple of very happy commercial customers as well. I believe that your criticism of my postings is based upon your belief that because I sell the product I am endorsing it on this forum. I sell the product because I believe in it and have seem first hand that it works as claimed. In fact at the time of my first postings in July I was not selling the product just doing my due diligence on it to make a rational decision about representing it in my market.

If selling a product should preclude me from posting and promoting it on this forum, then most of the plumbers and or water treatment professionals on this forum should not be posting as they may sell and install some brand of traditional water softener which they endorse on this forum.

2) What does being filthy rich as a plumber have to do with the discussion on this forum? I know many plumbers and plumbing companies that have done very well in the past financially, but it neither adds or detracts form their credibility to post on this forum, I think I hear a hint of financial jealousy.

3) There are thousands of very legitimate companies who do not post prices on their products on their website for many different reasons. I recently bought a Ricoh Copier and when I looked at their website for doing my research about their products they have no prices for their products. Using your logic one of the largest copier companies in the world must illegitimate. After contacting Ricoh I was directed to their local dealer where I purchased my copier and by the way the dealer's website had no pricing as well.

4) I know that Ferguson Plumbing in several of their markets represents Hydrocare and Ferguson is one of the largest national wholesale plumbing companies in the country. Hydrocare technology is relatively new to the US and as times goes on more and more companies will be selling this product. Thousands of everyday products have had slow starts in marketing but have gone on to be extremely successful. Oxyclean is a great example, when first introduced in the early 90's it was sold exclusively on TV by the pitchman Billy Mays and today it is sold in hundred of thousands of retail stores worldwide. By the way "Dooh" I do not sell Oxyclean and am not endorsing it here, Ha Ha.:p

Finally I am proud to admit that Scott the Plumber and myself are on this forum's friends list as a result of making contact through this forum.:D

Dooh, if you have any comments to make on this forum about Hydrocare as a result of your expert knowledge or experience with the product or any other water softening technology, please make them, otherwise take your personal attacks and go somewhere else.!!!:p

Peter Griffin
10-12-2009, 12:50 PM
http://www.chem1.com/CQ/hardwater.html

The above links and the links therein give a pretty good analysis of some of the "non traditional" methods of water treatment. These products come and go from the market and have for a number of years, the latest being Easy Water which you may have seen advertised on TV and the radio. There is some marginal evidence that may (or may not) validate the products claims. However it is important to note that for any real and verifiable change to a waters mineral or chemical content to occur, products with a proven track record should be your first choice. I note there is some discussion as to price of these alternate treatment methods. Though you may indeed be able to purchase and install the unit for as much as perhaps 1/4 of what traditional equipment will cost, it is important to cost that against the overall effectiveness of the product.
Part of the reason the cost is much much less is that the companies making these things figure that the average person will not bother to file a claim or return the product when they discover it is not doing what they though it would. If it was priced competitively with standard equipment, the return rate would be much much higher.

If there is anyone who can prove conclusively that their product will compete head to head with a standard water softener, under the same water conditions, I would like to see those results.

terrydbhm
10-12-2009, 01:23 PM
http://www.chem1.com/CQ/hardwater.html

The above links and the links therein give a pretty good analysis of some of the "non traditional" methods of water treatment. These products come and go from the market and have for a number of years, the latest being Easy Water which you may have seen advertised on TV and the radio. There is some marginal evidence that may (or may not) validate the products claims. However it is important to note that for any real and verifiable change to a waters mineral or chemical content to occur, products with a proven track record should be your first choice. I note there is some discussion as to price of these alternate treatment methods. Though you may indeed be able to purchase and install the unit for as much as perhaps 1/4 of what traditional equipment will cost, it is important to cost that against the overall effectiveness of the product.
Part of the reason the cost is much much less is that the companies making these things figure that the average person will not bother to file a claim or return the product when they discover it is not doing what they though it would. If it was priced competitively with standard equipment, the return rate would be much much higher.

If there is anyone who can prove conclusively that their product will compete head to head with a standard water softener, under the same water conditions, I would like to see those results.

Peter I have to agree with you that there are many bogus products out there that claim to soften water without salt or chemicals. I do not believe that Hydrocare is one of those products. Hydrocare nowhere claims to "soften" water but only to treat and condition hard water to prevent and remove lime scale buildup with out salt, chemicals or magnetics. If anyone does some easy do diligence you will find where this product has been validated all over the world. Hydrocare uses a world wide patented technology called Hydropath.

This technology is relatively new in the USA, less than 2 years, but was developed in the UK over 10 years ago. British Gas the largest gas and heating utility in the UK did much testing on the Hydropath units (the name Hydrocare is sold under in the UK) and it is the only product they endorse for lime scale prevention in all new installations of water heaters, heat exchangers, dish washers and boilers to their customers. This endorsement can be found on British Gas's web site. BG does not endorse any salt brine water softeners because they do not remove current lime scale build up and are not friendly to the environment. In fact BG will not offer a maintenance contract on any new equipment they sell unless a Hydropath unit is installed on the new installation. This endorsement by British Gas alone should validate the technology and its claims. The technology is also a green alternative to the traditional salt brine water softener in that i doesn't dump thousands of tons of salt into our water ways and environment. I had one commercial Hydrocare customer tell me recently that it didn't surprise me that the UK had developed this technology as he knew the UK is years ahead of the US on water treatment and water maintenance issues.

I think that when you are looking at what to purchase to treat your hardwater problems you need to decide what is the most important thing you want to accomplish. If you want to stop slime scale build up in the future and are not concerned about environmental issues or removing current lime scale then the traditional salt brine water softener may be for you. On the other hand if you want to remove current lime scale build up in your pipes,appliances and water heater and prevent it in the future and do not like the slimy feel of traditional salt brine softened water on your hair and skin the Hydrocare is what you should be buying.

Peter Griffin
10-12-2009, 01:40 PM
I am in agreement with you as to the environmental issues concerning traditional brine rinse equipment. In fact, some communities have banned disposing of it into the city sewer or dumping it on the ground. It is no doubt one of the drawbacks of the system, especially in congested rural areas. Imagine a 200 to 300 unit trailer park in say Florida with everyone dumping salt water brine on the back lawn. However, like I said, I have read a bunch of testimonials and that is good and fine, but what I would like to see is some verifiable test results and as of yet, I have seen none from any manufacturer.

terrydbhm
10-12-2009, 02:54 PM
I am in agreement with you as to the environmental issues concerning traditional brine rinse equipment. In fact, some communities have banned disposing of it into the city sewer or dumping it on the ground. It is no doubt one of the drawbacks of the system, especially in congested rural areas. Imagine a 200 to 300 unit trailer park in say Florida with everyone dumping salt water brine on the back lawn. However, like I said, I have read a bunch of testimonials and that is good and fine, but what I would like to see is some verifiable test results and as of yet, I have seen none from any manufacturer.

Peter, the only US scientific testing done on the technology was with Onspex Labs in Cleveland last year. This test was commissioned independently by RS Jackson Resources using Rheem tankless water heaters as the test subject. Their conclusions overwhelmingly confirmed that the Hydropath technology prevented lime scale build up in the heat exchanger vs no treatment at all. I have copies of the report and would be happy to forward them to you. There has been extensive testing overseas primarily in the UK mostly for British Gas. Most of these studies can be found on the Hydropath UK website.

I would like to see more scientific studies done in the US and so would Hydrocare USA. Hydrocare USA has several times tried to get the WQA (Water Quality Association) to do testing of their products and claims and so far have been turned down every time. This refusal by the WQA is not surprising as it may not be in the best interest of their traditional water treatment dealers, primarily salt brine softener dealers, to have the Hydropath technology validated in any way. After all it has been the WQA that as a lobby group has fought any and all attempts to legislatively ban or control salt discharges into our environment by salt brine water softeners. :confused:

Peter Griffin
10-12-2009, 02:59 PM
Well, how about results from a one on one against traditional equipment using the same water sample. Almost anyone can do a simple test for hardness.

terrydbhm
10-13-2009, 05:42 AM
Well, how about results from a one on one against traditional equipment using the same water sample. Almost anyone can do a simple test for hardness.

This wouldn't prove anything as far as this debate is concerned. I am not disputing that traditional water softeners prevent lime scale build up. Hydrocare is an alternative to preventing lime scale build up but it also removes current lime scale something that traditional softeners do not do. A better test would be to have 2 plumbing systems loaded up with lime scale and then running both a Hydrocare and traditional water softener to see which one will remove the current lime scale build and up. Again this would be a simple test for the WQA to perform, but so far they show no interest in validating any possible new technology that potentially could harm the business interests of their members. The WQA Magazine has printed a few negative articles about the use of Magnetics for treating hard water, but again these articles are not based upon any scientific research done by the WQA. Hydrocare is not a magnetic based technology and as far as I know they only mechanical electronic hard water conditioner that does not use magnets. Any system like Easy Water that wraps wires around a pipe is creating a magnetic field for treating the hard water.

The other issue is that nowhere do I or Hydrocare claim to remove hardness. Hydrocare only claims to condition or treat the hard water in a way that removes and prevents lime scale build up. So measuring the hardness will not be effected by the Hydorcare as it does not take any of the Ca or Mg ions out of the treated water like the traditional brine water softener.

Cass
10-13-2009, 05:45 AM
Does it stop the precipitation out of solution in the water heater when the water is heated....?

terrydbhm
10-13-2009, 06:06 AM
Does it stop the precipitation out of solution in the water heater when the water is heated....?

The Hydropath technology changes the Ca and Mg ions in a way that they will not adhere or attache to any surface including the heat exchanger in the water heater. Over the first several months after installation the Hydropath technology will also dissolve lime scale ions already built up in the water heater and its heat exchanger causing them to let lose and pass out in the water flow. Here is the direct quote from the Hydrocare website which explains the way it works:

"The HydroCare Patented Technology - a unique and proven solution to limescale
To effectively eliminate scale buildup HydroCare applies an electric field, which creates seed crystals of scale in the water. Scale then grows on these seed crystals instead of on the interior pipe walls, forming larger particles suspended in the water. These suspended scale particles will not settle onto pipes and appliances – instead, they will flow out of the plumbing system.

The HydroCare Technology system induces an electric current (between 100 and 200 KHZ) up and down the water flow for of hundreds of yards without using electrodes. The process naturally decreases the level of the limescale in the water, which builds until the existing limescale in the pipe system is dissolved and the pipes are completely clean.

The transmission is carried out with random breaks in fading sinus waves so that the entire range of salts in the water can be treated. The electric field produces crystal nuclei in a saturated solution, as well as in unsaturated solutions. This process attracts charged ions and forms stable crystal nuclei.

The electrical attraction pull between these nuclei increases as long as more ions join and a stable crystal is formed. The size of the crystals is between .05 and 50 microns and they flow in the water as a suspension without settling on the walls of the pipe.

As a result, there is a decrease in the level of the saturated solution in the water, triggering a process in which the existing limescale in the pipe system is dissolved until the lines are completely clean.."

Cass
10-13-2009, 06:07 AM
Since it does not remove anything Does it affect sudzing while taking a shower like hard water does....or does it allow greater sudzing like soft water...

terrydbhm
10-13-2009, 06:23 AM
Since it does not remove anything Does it affect sudzing while taking a shower like hard water does....or does it allow greater sudzing like soft water...

I installed a Hydrocare unit in my home on July 15th and the following are my personal observations about changes in our hard water:

My wife claims that she uses less hair shampoo and her skin isn't as dry feeling after showering as before we installed our unit. I have been able to discontinue using hair conditioner as my hair after shampooing seems to be softer. The lime build up in our shower head has completely disappeared in the last 90 days since we installed Hydrocare. We are also no longer getting the lime scale spotting on our shower glass and the need to use a powerful lime scale removal product like Kaboom on a weekly basis.

I also have discontinued using Jet Dry in our dishwasher as we no longer get the hard water spots on dishes and glasses. We have in our kitchen dark granite counter tops with antique bronze fixtures which always had a white ring around the base of of the faucet. This ring has not come back in the 3 months we have used Hydrocare.

When I wash my dark colored car in the sun any water spots when drying the car wipe off with a towel. In the past I had to pull the car into the garage to dry it on a hot sunny day.

Our house is 5 years old and we had no previous water softener. I did consider a brine water softener which we had in our previous home but my wife hated the slimy feel of the soft water on her skin, so that was not an option for our current home.

sjsmithjr
10-13-2009, 11:09 AM
Peter, the only US scientific testing done on the technology was with Onspex Labs in Cleveland last year. This test was commissioned independently by RS Jackson Resources using Rheem tankless water heaters as the test subject. Their conclusions overwhelmingly confirmed that the Hydropath technology prevented lime scale build up in the heat exchanger vs no treatment at all.

With all due respect, the referenced evaluation performed by OnSpex does not prove or disprove the effectiveness of the product in question as it is quite a flawed attempt at science.

I also visited the Hydropath UK website and while I found abundant anecdotal evidence in the form of personal testimony regrading the product in question, the "independent study" cited was the same as the one referenced above.

Please note that I am not saying that the product in question does or does not work as stated in the advertising literature, but rather that you haven't made your case.

Peter Griffin
10-13-2009, 01:01 PM
Well look now. I have seen many of these type of conditioners come and go from the market over the years and the one thing they all have in common is a total lack of verifiable testing or published results from standard water quality testing that can be done by any competent water test lab. I read a lot of testimonials and folks that say the water "feels better" or they are using less soap and such but lets face it, those are subjective assessments at best and there is no empirical data to back up any of those claims. Now you can argue the point or you can simply subject the equipment to simple water tests and put the subject to rest. So when someone says to me that no the equipment does not soften the water or remove calcium or magnesium but it does de-lime the pipe, what does that mean? and for that matter who cares. Liming is rarely a problem in copper, pex or cpvc piping systems.

terrydbhm
10-14-2009, 05:56 AM
Well look now. I have seen many of these type of conditioners come and go from the market over the years and the one thing they all have in common is a total lack of verifiable testing or published results from standard water quality testing that can be done by any competent water test lab. I read a lot of testimonials and folks that say the water "feels better" or they are using less soap and such but lets face it, those are subjective assessments at best and there is no empirical data to back up any of those claims. Now you can argue the point or you can simply subject the equipment to simple water tests and put the subject to rest. So when someone says to me that no the equipment does not soften the water or remove calcium or magnesium but it does de-lime the pipe, what does that mean? and for that matter who cares. Liming is rarely a problem in copper, pex or cpvc piping systems.

Peter, I thought you would be a little more subjective. Contrary to what you think, lime scale build up is a huge problem for most homeowners and goes beyond just build up in pipes. Why do homeowners install water softeners? Is is so they can use less soap and have that slimy feel on their skin while showering or is to stop lime scale and water spotting and the damage it does to their water appliances?

Most water heater warranties are invalidated if lime scale build up causes the failure. Both Rheem and Rinnai tankless water heaters have lime scale build up exclusions in their warranties. For anyone who has hard water spots (lime scale) in their stainless dishwashers, dishes, glassware, showers doors, water faucets and shower heads, lime scale in a huge problem. The Onspex study on the use of Hydropath for preventing lime scale in Rheem tankless water heaters proved that the technology worked as claimed by the manufacture. Some on this forum, say that this testing was flawed, but do not say how or point out any truth behind their statements. The fact that British gas has tested the product and endorses it for all heater and boiler installations in the UK, I think also validates the technology.

If this technology is a fraud as you claim why then have water quality and other trade associations like the WQA refused to do scientific testing that could be accepted by most and put this issue to rest? I think the WQA is afraid of the results they would produce and the business detriment it would cause to their traditional water treatment dealers and distributors members, but again this is only my opinion.:p
The salt brine water softener is a dinosaur that pollutes the environment and is just a few votes and signatures away from being restricted or banned in many states and municipalities and the water treatment dealers in this country need to wake up and find alternatives to this old technology.

sjsmithjr
10-14-2009, 07:50 AM
The Onspex study on the use of Hydropath for preventing lime scale in Rheem tankless water heaters proved that the technology worked as claimed by the manufacture. Some on this forum, say that this testing was flawed, but do not say how or point out any truth behind their statements.

I'll be more than happy to provide the forum with a brief review regarding the short comings of the OnSpex evaluation. Just so that there is no confusion, can you provide a link to the version of the evaluation you would like for me to work from? For example: if I link to the evaluation from Hydropath Canada the evaluation is not the same as the evaluation linked to from the Hydropath UK site.

terrydbhm
10-14-2009, 08:45 AM
I'll be more than happy to provide the forum with a brief review regarding the short comings of the OnSpex evaluation. Just so that there is no confusion, can you provide a link to the version of the evaluation you would like for me to work from? For example: if I link to the evaluation from Hydropath Canada the evaluation is not the same as the evaluation linked to from the Hydropath UK site.

I have been in communication with Mr Jackson who commissioned and paid for the OxspeX study and he informed me that the copy on the Hydropath Canada web site is the actual report as put out by Onspex.

Gary Slusser
10-14-2009, 11:24 AM
I've seen a couple anti-scale/descaling devices leave a whitish powdery substance on surfaces where the water was allowed to dry. The ladies hated that but to me it said they did as claimed.

But most do not work.

Neither do the mineral based "no salt" softeners, I know because I bought one to test to see if I wanted to sell them; it makes my Irish Spring suds better somewhat and doesn't allow as much white water marks but the water is nowhere like softened water.

And what some people call a slimy feel of softened water, that is moisturizing the skin and cuts down on skin creams and dry itchy flaky skin etc..

Peter Griffin
10-14-2009, 01:07 PM
I am pretty sure this is a debate that can never be won by either side. Those convinced that they work are not going to change their minds no matter what evidence is presented to them and those that say they don't work will no doubt say the same, though on them they don't work side all we are looking for is real, hard test results that never seem to be provided by any of the companies manufacturing these things.

Peter Griffin
10-14-2009, 02:53 PM
Like a car accident it's hard to keep away form some subjects and this is one of those.

Most ionic motion in water is due to random thermal motions; in an electric field of 1 volt/cm, only 1 out of about 100,000 jumps will be non-random.
Oppositely-charged ions tend to form neutral ion-pairs anyway, but they are so loosely-bound that they are continually dissociating and re-reforming, and are not believed able to grow large enough to serve as precipitation nuclei.
Some devices claim that they act on "calcium bicarbonate". Although both kinds of ions can exist in solution, Ca(HCO3)2 itself has never been isolated.
A possible mechanism might involve the displacement of the electric double layer surrounding an ion (or a pair of ions) in such a way that makes the formation of a precipitation nucleus within the water more likely.
It all sounds so simple, Just stick in a couple of oppositely-charged electrodes, and watch the harness ions such as Ca2+ and CO32– be magically drawn out of the water to be precipitated on the electrodes. Never mind such ions cannot be deposited from aqueous solution, or that the process would violate several laws of physics. once again, these products and othres like them have been around for years, and not one of them has ever provided creditable evidence to support the claims made. On the other hand, traditional treatment equipment has been around for a long tome with proveable results. The standard statement is that the new miracle equipment does not remove hardness like a traditional softner would. Instead it precipitates the minerals as a "fine dust" never mind that that fine dust is what occurs when hard water evaporates and leaves those minerals behind. As for the slimy feeling from softened water, I find that once the homeowner gets used to not using nearly as much soap the slimy feeling goes away.

Gary Slusser
10-14-2009, 10:37 PM
That brings to mind the fact the up until the 1980s science thought there was no life on the ocean floor, and although there was evidence of long runout landslides, science couldn't come up with how a landslide could run so far so they denied the existence, and evidence. And science couldn't explain evidence of 1000+ ft high tsunamies so they denied the evidence. Or that science said stomach ulcers were caused by worry/stress until bacteria was proven to be the cause.

Physical water treatment (PWT), including magnets, does work in constantly circulating closed loop systems but not so well in residential applications where 99% of the time the water is stagnant. "Works" is defined as preventing hard water scale build up in pipe, fixtures, water heaters and water using appliances.

The powdery film is not the same as hard water spot rings that are very difficult to remove. The powder wipes right off like dust. Much like sulfates or chlorides does.

Peter Griffin
10-15-2009, 02:53 AM
Well, yes, there are new scientific discoveries made all the time, but chemistry and more to the point the chemistry of water is pretty well defined at this point.

There is do date little or no evidence to support the claims of any of the magnetic, radio frequency or zeta rod type equipment and one thing that often gets overlooked is that at normal residential velocities within the piping, none of these units, would have any chance of changing the water chemistry given the amount of energy they produce, which is laws of physics thing.

The simple reality is that when these units are tested using hard water, there is virtually no change at all in the water chemistry. saying the water feels different, or produces a fine powder, what does that mean? Minerals are minerals. They are dissolved in solution. changing the chemistry involves removing them or chemically altering them and again, none of those methods do that. Magnets, electricity and radio waves will not change the chemical properties of minerals. It violated the law of physics.

terrydbhm
10-15-2009, 06:04 AM
Physical water treatment (PWT), including magnets, does work in constantly circulating closed loop systems but not so well in residential applications where 99% of the time the water is stagnant. "Works" is defined as preventing hard water scale build up in pipe, fixtures, water heaters and water using appliances..

Gary, it appears that you are very knowledgeable about most PWT systems with the exception of the Hydropath technology. It is true that PWT systems that use a magnetic field or coiled wire wrapped around the water pipe are dependant water flow directly through the magnetic field and on the flow of the water. Stagnant or static water will lose the charge it received after passing through the magnetic field in a relative short time. These devises to work properly have to be installed in a residence at the point of entry to work for the entire house.

The Hydropath technology does not use a magnetic field. To effectively eliminate scale buildup HydroCare applies an electric field, which creates seed crystals of scale in the water. Scale then grows on these seed crystals instead of on the interior pipe walls, forming larger particles suspended in the water. These suspended scale particles will not settle onto pipes and appliances – instead, they will flow out of the plumbing system. The process naturally decreases the level of the lime scale in the water, which builds until the existing lime scale in the pipe system is dissolved and the pipes are completely clean. These suspended scale particles are the powder left after water evaporates that you refer to and clean off with a damp towel instead of the caustic chemicals needed to remove untreated hard water spots.

The HydroCare system induces an electric current (between 100 and 200 KHZ) up and down the water flow for of hundreds of yards without using electrodes. The signal travels along pipe-work and within the water. It does not require a flow of water to set up the electric field unlike other technologies and works in all temperature levels and flux. The efficient manner by which the electric field is directionally generated through the entire water system both upstream and downstream from the location of the Hydrocare unit.. In a residence the recommended location for installation in on the cold water inlet to the water heater as the signal strength will be stronger for the one water appliance most affected by lime scale build up.

terrydbhm
10-15-2009, 08:38 AM
I just received this news story from WCP Online:

October 2009: Volume 51, Number 10

California Softener Ban Signed

Governor Arnold Schwarzeneggar has signed AB 1366, sponsored by Assemblymember Mike Feuer (D-Los Angeles). The legislation is designed to improve water quality by addressing the problem of excess salinity caused by residential water softeners.

It gives greater discretion to local water agencies where surface and groundwater supplies are particularly susceptible to salt contamination with additional authority to manage these salt discharges. The bill applies to the South Coast, Central Coast, San Joaquin Valley, Tulare Lake and the lower half of the Sacramento Valley hydrologic regions.

The Pacific Water Quality Association will address the implications of this development during it's Annual Convention, focusing on what it means for water industry professionals and their businesses.

Gary Slusser
10-15-2009, 09:34 AM
Well, yes, there are new scientific discoveries made all the time, but chemistry and more to the point the chemistry of water is pretty well defined at this point.
Well alrighty then, we should know all there is to know about everything there is to know about water chemistry and physics. How is it then that "there are new discoveries made all the time" as you say (and I agree with)?


There is do date little or no evidence to support the claims of any of the magnetic, radio frequency or zeta rod type equipment and one thing that often gets overlooked is that at normal residential velocities within the piping, none of these units, would have any chance of changing the water chemistry given the amount of energy they produce, which is laws of physics thing.
And the same type comments were made by scientific types about the pictures and on site descriptions and reports of long runout landslides. They physically existed but the scientists couldn't reproduce them in the lab so they said impossible. And were wrong for over a 150 years.


The simple reality is that when these units are tested using hard water, there is virtually no change at all in the water chemistry. saying the water feels different, or produces a fine powder, what does that mean? Minerals are minerals. They are dissolved in solution. changing the chemistry involves removing them or chemically altering them and again, none of those methods do that. Magnets, electricity and radio waves will not change the chemical properties of minerals. It violated the law of physics.
So here we are applying a test for hardness that doesn't show any change in hardness content so we deny there could be any change in the water chemistry or quality while the visual evidence is pooh pooed as someone's overactive imagination. IMO that's very closed minded and nothing more than someone's uninformed opinion.

Gary Slusser
10-15-2009, 10:31 AM
Gary, it appears that you are very knowledgeable about most PWT systems with the exception of the Hydropath technology.
I know of them and have stated my first hand experience with two instances where I saw a change in water quality with an electronic anti-scaling device. And you're right that I don't know the product you found'n so passionately fell in love with but....

It is not the endall I think you think it is and will not give satisfactory service to most people.

As to the new law in CA, it does not ban softeners. It gives local authorities the ability to pass laws to ban softeners.

Now Santa Clarita has been doing that for years and although at first the population went along thinking it was a good idea, most now are saying it was a mistake because there is no substitute for 0 gpg soft water from a water softener.

They learned that after trusting the politicians and marketing like yours and bought "no salt" softeners of all kinds and found that they don't work.

terrydbhm
10-15-2009, 11:14 AM
As to the new law in CA, it does not ban softeners. It gives local authorities the ability to pass laws to ban softeners. .

I am not totally convinced that banning them is the right thing to do, but the handwriting is on the wall. A much more controlling bill was passed by Ca last year that Governor Schwarzenegger vetoed. This years bill was a compromise that they knew Governor would sign. However he is not as popular as he once was and more than likely Schwarzenegger will not get re elected which means a much more liberal will be in charge and more likely go along with stronger statewide controls in the future. Similar bills are also being considered in as many as 11 other states and whether its right or wrong the salt brine water softener is a dinosaur that will eventually be legislated out of existence.





Now Santa Clarita has been doing that for years and although at first the population went along thinking it was a good idea, most now are saying it was a mistake because there is no substitute for 0 gpg soft water from a water softener. .

Since when does what the people want or like matter to politicians who are beholding to their agendas especially when it comes to environmental and health issues. Polls show that over 60% of the People in the US do not want the current health care reform but the politicians think they know best and are determined to cram it down our throats.

Peter Griffin
10-15-2009, 01:08 PM
Look, i don't want to get into an argument with anyone here but for gods sake people, do me a favor and at least take a look at the following site.

http://www.chem1.com/CQ/magscams.html

The guy has a ton of links to university studies and independent testing labs, pretty much you name it. And all of them dismiss these claims.

I can't help but feel bad for those that have bought into this bunk. You have been scammed by smooth talking salesmen with very convincing pseudo-science into believing that these products will do things that are for the most part contrary to the laws of physics and chemistry. But then, Roswell does a hell of a business and there are scores of folks still looking for big foot and the loch ness monster. Nobody likes to be wrong and nobody likes to feel like they were scammed. Worse yet, nobody likes to throw money away. Please, do yourself a favor and read through the above site. Follow the links and read them. The guy who's site it is, is a scientist, he has no stake in the subject either way and he openly links to many many other guys that have either tested or had experiences bood and bad with these sorts of products.

just exactly is a long run out landslide? I spose I could google it but my fingers are tired.

Terry
10-15-2009, 01:56 PM
just exactly is a long run out landslide? I spose I could google it but my fingers are tired.

A massive landslide in Washington State has experts baffled.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2010051939_landslide13m.html

The slide probably was a "rotational slump," University of Washington geologist David Montgomery said.A big hunk of the valley wall basically slid along a scoop-shaped fracture line. As the top of the slope slumped, the bottom was thrust upward.
Rotational slides can be triggered by rain — but it could be rain that fell a year ago or more. The water percolates deep into the ground, creating hidden weakness, Montgomery said.

Peter Griffin
10-15-2009, 06:22 PM
well that's just plain bizarre

Gary Slusser
10-15-2009, 10:42 PM
Look, i don't want to get into an argument with anyone here but for gods sake people, do me a favor and at least take a look at the following site.

http://www.chem1.com/CQ/magscams.html

The guy has a ton of links to university studies and independent testing labs, pretty much you name it. And all of them dismiss these claims.
Science doesn't know a lot of things, and why and how PWT does what it does is one of them.

And as you see in the link Terry posted, science still can't fully understand why or how some irregular, abnormal, or you could say bizarre, landslides occur. A long runout landslide would have gone out across the valley floor and possibly to the opposite side of the valley.

Proof;
".... but its cause remains a mystery. "I've been around for 25 years, and this is definitely one of the biggest," said Tom Badger, geotechnical engineer for the Washington State Department of Transportation (DOT).
Unlike the slides that pop up across Western Washington during rainstorms, the slide on the east side of the Cascades occurred on a clear morning. There was no earthquake in the vicinity, and DOT officials say they don't believe a local rock quarry destabilized the slope.
"To be honest, right now we're just trying to get our arms around this," Badger said."

That isn't a true long run out landslide. Here is a bunch of links that explains them.

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22long+runout+landslide%22&sourceid=navclient-ff&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGGL,GGGL:2006-22,GGGL:en

As to universities saying whatever about PWT, if you look at what is said long enough, you'll realize they simply repeat what another university said some time before. They do that with most things concerning water treatment of any kind.

Peter Griffin
10-16-2009, 02:39 AM
I can guarantee that it will lighten your wallet but your water quality will not be anywhere as good as softened water from a water softener.

This was your first post of the thread and one that I totally agree with. Are you reversing your decision? It's very confusing.

terrydbhm
10-16-2009, 06:08 AM
Look, i don't want to get into an argument with anyone here but for gods sake people, do me a favor and at least take a look at the following site.

http://www.chem1.com/CQ/magscams.html

The guy has a ton of links to university studies and independent testing labs, pretty much you name it. And all of them dismiss these claims..

Peter, I have seen and read this link before and this "guy" solely addresses the use of magnetic and magnetic fields (MWT) for treating hard water. Once again please under stand and read my posting above in this forum, the Hydropath technology used in Hydrocare DOES NOT USE MAGNETS OR MAGNETIC FIELDS. Most of the links and independent testing labs He references date back to the 1980's which was way before the Hydropath technology was invented and patented worldwide. Why are there no references to any studies in the last 5 years or so? We all know scientific studies and theories change all the time as new discoveries are made. As short as 30 years before we landed a man on the moon many scientists thought it was impossible for a maned space craft to escape the gravitational pull of the earth and visit the moon. There were also people who thought the first horseless carriages would never replace the horse and buggy and some so called scientists thought a man could not travel faster than 30 miles per hour and live!!


I can't help but feel bad for those that have bought into this bunk. You have been scammed by smooth talking salesmen with very convincing pseudo-science into believing that these products will do things that are for the most part contrary to the laws of physics and chemistry. Worse yet, nobody likes to throw money away. ..
What about the flim flam salesmen who sell traditional water softeners? There is a dealer in my market who sells one of the major national lines of whole house water softeners that averages over $5000. He has numerous unanswered complaints with the local BBB and there are several blogs of customers he has scammed with his salesmen's sales pitches. One of them is a neighbor of mine who was scared to death when the salesman precipitated a bunch of white goo from our city tap water, which is nothing more than an old high school science lab experiment. He was quoted $6500 for a whole house system that was a brine water softener, a sediment/carbon pre filter and an under the sink R/O system. The next day this same salesman called my neighbor and told him to stop drinking his city tap water as a test he had done showed it full of e coli bacteria. Fortunately my neighbor asked me my opinion and I told him to buy a good water softener from Sears, Lowes or Home Depot (before I knew about Hydrocare) and that I could install an under sink R/O system and his total investment would be under $1200 for evrything.


Please, do yourself a favor and read through the above site. Follow the links and read them. The guy who's site it is, is a scientist, he has no stake in the subject either way and he openly links to many many other guys that have either tested or had experiences good and bad with these sorts of products. .

I seriously doubt he has no stake in the water treatment industry but lets assume he wrote and posted this paper from the goodness of his heart, but again he only addresses magnetics which has nothing to do with the Hydropath technology. If Hydropath is the scam that you desire to make it answer this one question if you can. Why does British Gas, the largest gas utility in the UK, endorse Hydropath as the only product to treat and prevent hard water scale in appliances, water heaters and boilers? The endorsement can be found on the BG web site and installation of a Hydropath unit is required for all maintenance contracts covered for appliances sold and installed by British Gas. Do you really think British Gas is scamming thousands of their customers in the UK?

sjsmithjr
10-16-2009, 08:45 AM
If Hydropath is the scam that you desire to make it answer this one question if you can. Why does British Gas, the largest gas utility in the UK, endorse Hydropath as the only product to treat and prevent hard water scale in appliances, water heaters and boilers? The endorsement can be found on the BG web site and installation of a Hydropath unit is required for all maintenance contracts covered for appliances sold and installed by British Gas. Do you really think British Gas is scamming thousands of their customers in the UK?

Again, that is anecdotal evidence not really relevant to the discussion as to whether or not the product in question works as intended. For example, a well known big box store at one time required that all workers wear back braces/harnesses/support belts at work. The devices were also sold by the big box store and were marketed as preventing back injuries.

That the big box store required them certainly helped them to sell more of them. My father and one of my brother's purchased the belts for their own use from the big box store. I specifically recall my father purchasing his based on the premise that if the big box store required their workers to wear them they must work as advertised.

As it turns out, the use of these belts proved to be ineffective and in some instances potentially harmful. Does that mean that the big box store set out to scam their employees and customers? That’s one hypothesis. Another would be that the big box store bought into a well constructed sales pitch. The same can easily be said with respect to British Gas.

I should have my review of the OnSpex Evaluation wrapped up later today. In the mean time y'all try to play nice.

terrydbhm
10-16-2009, 10:32 AM
Again, that is anecdotal evidence not really relevant to the discussion as to whether or not the product in question works as intended. .

Anecdotal?? It is total relevant to this discussion as to whether the product works as intended and marketed. British Gas was instrumental in the development and TESTING of the Hydropath technology 14 years ago and concluded from their testing that it did work and have been endorsing it ever since and have thousands of very satisfied customers in the UK. Your amusing story about back braces is what has no relevance to this discussion.

Your comments have finally tipped your hand to your true agenda, you are not interested in any testing by anyone or group that proves that this technology works. In your closed mind you will never accept this product no matter who tests or endorses its merits. My guess is you are a plant sent to this discussion by some traditional water softener trade group to debunk this technology no matter what. I would bet money that if in the future if some group like the WQA, NSF, WCP, FDA, API etc. were to test the product and certify the technology you will still be screaming SCAM!!:p

sjsmithjr
10-16-2009, 11:38 AM
The following are my comments based on a quick and informal review of a report titled: Evaluation of Induction Water Conditioning Products by Comparision to a Control Device dated March 6, 2008. The report was prepared by OnSpeX, Cleveland, Ohio for R.S. Jackson, RS Resources Inc. The comments that follow reflect my personal opinions. I am not being compensated for my review, nor am I performing this review at the behest of any party other than myself. I have been a member of this forum since December of 2005.

As a reviewer, the question at hand is whether or not the evaluation "overwhelmingly confirmed that the Hydropath technology prevented lime scale build up in the heat exchanger vs no treatment at all." If I had commissioned the evaluation, the following (at a minimum) would have been addressed by OnSpeX before the check left my hand.

General Comment 1: The report never describes the objectives of the test.
General Comment 2: The report never establishes the relevance of the selected test end-point.
General Comment 3: The report never establishes that the test conditions accurately simulate typical conditions found in a residential water distribution system.
General Comment 4: The tests were performed at different times, on different systems, under different conditions making comparative analysis impossible.
General Comment 5: The report fails to reference any recognized standards under which the tests were performed.
General Comment 6: The report fails to document whether or not the equipment used in the tests, such as the tankless water heaters, test instruments, etc., were installed and/or used in accordance with manufacturer’s specifications. The condition of the test equipment at the beginning of the test(s) is not provided.
General Comment 7: On page 2 of 9 it is indicated that no revisions have been made while pages 4 of 9 through 9 of 9 are indicated as Revision 1.
General Comment 8: Overall, the report is poorly written.

Comment 1 (page 4 of 9). Reference table "Samples". The manufacturer and address of the device under evaluation is not provided under the table header "Manufacturer". This information is not provided by the report. This information should be provided.
Comment 2 (page 4 of 9). Reference table "Samples". The model number and/or SKU of the device under evaluation is not provided under the table header "Model/SKU". This information is not provided in the report. Additionally, HydroFLOW is misspelled.
Comment 3 (page 4 of 9). Reference "Test conditions". The text describes 200 feet of copper pipe and eighteen (18) 90 degree elbows. The "typical setup" in the photo appears to have greater than 18 elbows. No explanation is given for the deviation or why the actual setups are not shown. Additionally, HydroFLOW is misspelled.
Comment 4 (page 4 of 9). Reference "Test conditions". The text states that a Rinnai model RTG74PWN was used during testing the product under evaluation. Rinnai does not manufacture a model RTG74PWN. The photo is of a Rheem. Rheem does manufacture a model RTG74PWN. A photo of Unit #1 is not provided. Serial numbers should be provided for the units.
Comment 5 (page 4 of 9). Reference "Comments". The text in states that a diagram of the mechanical installation is attached at the end of this report. The referenced diagram is not provided.
Comment 6 (page 5 of 9). The provided graph clearly illustrates that test conditions were not met during the time window represented. No explanation is given for the deviations. No flow data is provided. Hardness data are not provided.
Comment 7 (page 6 of 9). The provided graph clearly illustrates that test conditions were not met during the time window represented. No explanation is given. No flow data is provided. Temperature units are not given. The conditions illustrated are not the same as those illustrated on page 5 of 9. No explanation is given for the deviations. Inlet temperatures fluctuations are not explained. No flow data is provided. Hardness data are not provided.
Comment 8 (page 7 of 9). Reference "End of Test Parameters". Starting water flow and average water flow are not usefull to evaluating the claim that the no appreciable decrease in flow occured on the system fitted with the device under evaluation.
Comment 9 (page 7 of 9). Reference "End of Test Parameters". Average Water Hardness, Starting Water Flow, and Average Water Flow are not provided for the control system.
Comment 10 (page 7 of 9). Reference "End of Test Parameters". No description of the condition(s) or cause(s) for "flow below the test (sic)" is given.
Comment 11 (page 7 of 9). Reference "End of Test Parameters". (0.9 PPM) should read (0.9 GPM).
Comment 12 (page 7 of 9). Reference "End of Test Parameters". HydroFLOW is misspelled twice in this table.
Comment 13 (page 7 of 9). Reference "End of Test Results". A photo of the filter for the control unit is not provided for comparison.
Comment 14 (page 7 of 9). Reference "End of Test Results". A photo of the solenoid valve, inlet, outlet, and drain from the unit fitted with the device under evaluation are not provided for comparison.
Comment 15 (page 8 of 9). Reference "End of Test Results". A photo of the drain valve from the control unit is not provided for comparision. The photo provided indicates the drain valve is from the RS Resources Heater. This is the first reference to this unit.
Comment 16 (page 8 of 9). Reference "End of Test Results". A photo of an outlet adapter is shown without reference to test unit. No other photos are provided for comparison.
Comment 17 (page 8 of 9). Reference "End of Test Results". A photo of a ball valve outlet is shown without reference to test unit. No other photos are provided for comparison.
Comment 18 (page 8 of 9). Reference "End of Test Results". A photo of heater tubes is shown without reference to test unit. As written, the condition illustrated applies to any water system whether it is fitted with the device under evaluation or not.
Comment 19 (page 8 of 9). Reference "End of Test Results". A photo of a heat exchanger from RS Resources is shown. The condition is described as typical. As written, the condition illustrated applies to any water system whether it is fitted with the device under evaluation or not.

Conclusion. The data in the report do not support the claim that it "overwhelmingly confirmed that the Hydropath technology prevented lime scale build up in the heat exchanger vs no treatment at all".

Recommendation. A more rigorous evaluation of the test product is required to confirm or deny the effectiveness of this technology in a residential setting.

Peter Griffin
10-16-2009, 12:22 PM
Thank you SJS great find. Here's another one

www.prochemtech.com/Literature/Technical/ncd.html

Unfortunately though, I believe you and I are swimming upstream on this one. When someone has something that firm in their mind, all the evidence in the world is not going to change it. There are plenty of studies and experts that have weighed in on these products, all with about the same conclusions. Still the debate rages on. You can throw all the science in the world at the subject and as I said before, it's like arguing Roswell aliens with the true believers. Everything you say is nothing more than a conspiracy theory to them. So out of boredom and the sure knowledge that no matter what gets printed here, nobody is likely to change their minds, I therefore retire from this tedious conversation.

terrydbhm
10-16-2009, 12:33 PM
Thank you SJS great find. Here's another one

www.prochemtech.com/literature/technical/ncd.html

Unfortunately though, I believe you and I are swimming upstream on this one. When someone has something that firm in their mind, all the evidence in the world is not going to change it. There are plenty of studies and experts that have weighed in on these products, all with about the same conclusions. Still the debate rages on. You can throw all the science in the world at the subject and as I said before, it's like arguing Roswell aliens with the true believers. Everything you say is nothing more than a conspiracy theory to them. So out of boredom and the sure knowledge that no matter what gets printed here, nobody is likely to change their minds, I therefore retire from this tedious conversation.

(The above link does not work)

Peter, you still have not addressed the point that Hydropath, Hydroflow and Hydrocare are not magnetic based water treatment technologies. All of these web sites that debunk magnetic MWT treatments have no relevance to the Hydropath technology. While there has not been an overwhelming amount of certification and testing in North America, there has been in many other places in the world. When you find some web site that debunks the Hydropath technology as not working as claimed by its manufacturer please come back and report to this forum. However I will not be surprised if we never hear from you because you will not find any such evidence.:p:p:p:p

Peter Griffin
10-16-2009, 12:56 PM
Try this one and it does address electric current and radio waves so by the way does the first link, you just did'nt read enough. Looking at hydro's web site and reading their technical explanation all I have to say is what they are proposing that is occurring is contrary to the laws of physics but why let little things like that stop you.


www.prochemtech.com

Then go to the literature tab and then to non chemical devices 30 years of myth busting

Bob999
10-16-2009, 12:57 PM
The following claims are made for Hydrocare:

"HydroCare is a revolutionary breakthrough in the treatment of hard water. One patented unit transmits a unique radio frequency signal that effectively breaks up existing limescale that clogs in pipes, showers and appliances. It will prevent any future buildup protecting the entire plumbing system and increasing efficiency. The electric field is generated through the entire plumbing system and all water appliances.

A Green and Efficient Water Treatment Solution!
Costs a fraction of a water softener!
No Maintenance! No Bags of Salt!
No Filters!
Energy Savings – up to 30% increased efficiencies in heating water
Unclogs pipes and saves thousands of gallons of water
Extends the life of your entire plumbing system and appliances
Environmentally friendly and healthy!
Uses less than 2 watts!"

There are no claims that the unit softens the water--only that it "breaks up existing lime scale"...and "prevent any future build up".

Can we all agree that it is not a softener and should not be compared to a softener?

It does seem to me that the claims made should be supported with documentation--particularly claims like "30% increased efficiencies in heating water" and "saves thousands of gallons of water", and "extends the life of your entire plumbing system and appliances"

I would also like to see documentation for the statement that it costs a fraction of a water softener. If it can be purchased for $600 I can point to a water softener that can be purchased for $450--and that "fraction" is 1 and 1/3 or 1.33 times MORE than a water softener.

Gary Slusser
10-16-2009, 02:04 PM
This was your first post of the thread and one that I totally agree with. Are you reversing your decision? It's very confusing.
Yes I said that and meant it. And no, I would not sell the stuff (PWT), or the Softsorb mineral type "no salt" softeners. They are all a waste of money.

I also have said I have seen two electronic anti-scale devices 'work' because they caused a white powder to form on all surfaces the water was allowed to dry on.

I have also said that science doesn't know everything, including why magnets and electronic PWT things do what they do to make SOME waters less able to scale and how they descale pipes, fixtures and water heaters. SOME do do that.

You and others do not believe they do that and go on'n on about them not doing anything because there is no test you can do to prove they do anything (because you insist on using a hardness test), you're wrong in some cases.

Now you seem to be unable to understand what I said and what I meant and want to go on about it, I don't, so reread what I've said until you understand it to mean what I've said.

As to the PM you sent me. Don't send me anymore Get Off the Pot type PMs.

You have something to say, clean it up by getting rid of any disrespect or personal attack/harassment/attitude stuff as if you are in a discussion and post it in the appropriate thread.

An FYI and a heads up (I see you have asked about them) the last few guys that faked their ability to understand what I say and argued constantly, sent me smart ass PMs and email, harassed me etc. in posts and threatened to get me banned, have been banned themselves and their posts deleted. So say what you want in a polite respectful discussion type format in a thread or you might find yourself gone too.

Peter Griffin
10-16-2009, 02:21 PM
Now just hold on a minute. The PM I sent you was just a friendly prod because maybe I didn't read your replies here carefully enough but it seemed to me like you were defending this pseudo science water conditioning stuff. I am by no means disrespecting you or trying to get into any kind of argument either. In fact 99% of the time your posts are right on the money when it comes to treatment equipment. It just seemed to me that you were waffling a bit here and I could not understand why a guy like you that sells quality equipment and understands quality equipment and water treatment would even begin to entertain the notion that this quack science stuff has any validity to it at all and apparently you don't think that it does so I apologize for any confusion. Nobody is trying to get anybody else banned here.

Quote I've seen a couple anti-scale/descaling devices leave a whitish powdery substance on surfaces where the water was allowed to dry. The ladies hated that but to me it said they did as claimed.

But most do not work.

Neither do the mineral based "no salt" softeners, I know because I bought one to test to see if I wanted to sell them; it makes my Irish Spring suds better somewhat and doesn't allow as much white water marks but the water is nowhere like softened water.

And what some people call a slimy feel of softened water, that is moisturizing the skin and cuts down on skin creams and dry itchy flaky skin etc..
__________________

Yes, I did miss this one, my bad.

jadnashua
10-16-2009, 02:53 PM
FWIW, RF does generate EMF, or electro-magnetic fields...but, at the higher frequency, doesn't show the typical reaction you'd get with a traditional bar or horseshoe magnet. So, while you can market it any way you want, it is still a fancy magnet. Whether it works or not is not my point.

sjsmithjr
10-16-2009, 03:23 PM
Gentlemen. Decorum; please. The personal assaults do nothing to further our discussions regarding the matter at hand.

sjsmithjr
10-16-2009, 03:57 PM
I would bet money that if in the future if some group like the WQA, NSF, WCP, FDA, API etc. were to test the product and certify the technology you will still be screaming SCAM!!:p

To the best of my knowledge: the FDA does not certify technology; the API, on the consumer level, certifies the ratings of motor oil; the WCP is the international equivalent of the WQA; the WQA has declined to certify the Hydrocare HC38 (the presumption among some being that they are biased towards innovative technologies); and the NSF at this time has a copy of the OnSpeX report but has taken no action.

I have been unable to find any documentation re British Gas being involved in the development or testing of the technology under discussion or products based on this technology. I would appreciate any documentation re their participation that the participants in this discussion can provide.

If anyone has questions with respect to my employment I would encourage you to PM me and I can provide you with the essential information. I do find it amusing that, during my participation on this forum, I have twice been accused of being a "plant". In both instances the accusations were made by salesmen. Water conditioner salesmen at that. I have no hidden agenda. I simply despise junk science.

My mind is open. At no time have I directly or indirectly suggested that the device in question is a scam. I did point out that the hard evidence offered as to the device's effectiveness is deficient. I remain prepared to defend that statement (reference my earlier post recommending a more rigorous study).

Considering the profits to made by such a device if its effectiveness could be documented, I would choose an electron scanning microscope as the instrument by which I would observe the purported abilities of the device; not hardness; not anecdotal evidence.

sjsmithjr
10-16-2009, 05:23 PM
Anecdotal?? It is total relevant to this discussion as to whether the product works as intended and marketed. British Gas was instrumental in the development and TESTING of the Hydropath technology 14 years ago and concluded from their testing that it did work and have been endorsing it ever since and have thousands of very satisfied customers in the UK. Your amusing story about back braces is what has no relevance to this discussion.

it is relevant. Here's why: Your hypothesis can be stated as "If a large company such as BG endorses and sells the product then it must work as advertised".

So, as a scientist I set out to prove your hypothesis. If I document an instance where a large corporation has endorsed and sold a product that did not work as advertised, then the hypothesis is disproved. Case in point, a big box store sold and endorsed back belts as preventing back injuries. The back braces did not prevent back injuries as advertised. Your hypothesis disproved.

terrydbhm
10-17-2009, 05:03 AM
Try this one and it does address electric current and radio waves so by the way does the first link, you just did'nt read enough. Looking at hydro's web site and reading their technical explanation all I have to say is what they are proposing that is occurring is contrary to the laws of physics but why let little things like that stop you.


www.prochemtech.com

Then go to the literature tab and then to non chemical devices 30 years of myth busting

I have read this paper published by a company who sells chemical treatments for scale control in cooling towers whos purpose is intended to debunk technologies they perceive as possible competitors to their products. That would be the same as Culligan or any other salt brine water softener manufacturer publishing the same paper, which provides very little credibility. However unless I missed something this paper did not address the Hydropath technology or radio waves, but it did address many others in the following direct quote:

NCD Theory of Operation
Looking at the mode of operation claimed by NCD suppliers, we can generally place them into one of the following types;
Mode Typical Supplier Unit Name(s)
Magnetic "Bon Aqua" "Aqua Flo" "TowerMate"
Electromagnetic "Linear Kinetic Cell" "Dolphin"
Electrostatic "Progressive Electronic" "ChemFree" "Zeta Rod"
Catalytic "Fre Flow"
Mechanical "Moltek" "Chesterton VRTX"


Looking at either the supplier literature, or actual devices in the field, we have observed the following general construction of these five basic types of NCD.

Magnetic: Devices of this type generally employ one, or more, permanent magnet(s) mounted either on the outside, or inside, of the pipe containing the water to be treated. No other equipment, or input power, is supplied, and the magnets are stated to be "permanent".

Electromagnetic: These devices commonly have a low power, low voltage (step down transformer) based power supply providing alternating, or in some cases DC, current to one, or more, coils wound around the outside of the pipe through which the water to be treated flows.

Electrostatic: These units generally consist of a low amperage, high voltage DC power supply and a capacitor like cell where the water to be treated flows between two insulated plates, which are typically charged to between 10,000 and 30,000 vdc. Operating like a capacitor, there is very low power usage.

Catalytic: These devices appear to be nothing more than sealed metal cylinders filled with "powdered metal", or metal shapes of varied composition, inserted into either a tank, or a pipe, in the water system to be treated. The chemical composition of the "catalyst" is reported to vary widely, but is often claimed to include transition and precious metals.

Mechanical: The mechanical devices being marketed appear to be modified centrifugal pumps that provide for recirculation of the pressurized water.

Gary Slusser
10-17-2009, 11:02 AM
To the best of my knowledge: the WQA has declined to certify the Hydrocare HC38 (the presumption among some being that they are biased towards innovative technologies); and the NSF at this time has a copy of the OnSpeX report but has taken no action.
The WQA and NSF only test and certify performance of water treatment equipment submitted for testing by the manufacturer that wants to use the certification in their marketing after the testing is paid for.

The testing is very expensive and that is why most manufacturers' equipment is not 'certified'. Also, if any materials or components are changed in any way, that voids the certification and retesting must be purchased; so the certification is for each size etc..

Gary Slusser
10-17-2009, 11:33 AM
Terrydbhm, If PWT or 'no salt' softeners worked, it wouldn't matter what type it was, I and everyone else selling ion exchange softeners, and most selling water treatment chemicals, would be selling the stuff.

Frankly most of us are as honest as the day is long but you guys act as if we are all liars and crooks etc. raping the environment.
(http://terrylove.com/forums/member.php?u=34801)

Peter Griffin
10-17-2009, 12:56 PM
I think that the best thing about this entire thread is that there has been enough discourse that anyone reading it, that has considering purchasing any of the alternative treatment methods will hopefully do some deep research and make an informed decision rather that taking anyone's word for it.

P.T. Barnum said this many moons ago "there's a sucker born every minute"

Caviet emptor - buyer beware

terrydbhm
10-18-2009, 07:56 AM
The following claims are made for Hydrocare:

"HydroCare is a revolutionary breakthrough in the treatment of hard water. One patented unit transmits a unique radio frequency signal that effectively breaks up existing limescale that clogs in pipes, showers and appliances. It will prevent any future buildup protecting the entire plumbing system and increasing efficiency. The electric field is generated through the entire plumbing system and all water appliances.

A Green and Efficient Water Treatment Solution!
Costs a fraction of a water softener!
No Maintenance! No Bags of Salt!
No Filters!
Energy Savings – up to 30% increased efficiencies in heating water
Unclogs pipes and saves thousands of gallons of water
Extends the life of your entire plumbing system and appliances
Environmentally friendly and healthy!
Uses less than 2 watts!"

There are no claims that the unit softens the water--only that it "breaks up existing lime scale"...and "prevent any future build up".

Can we all agree that it is not a softener and should not be compared to a softener?.
Bob, I know that nowhere in this forum or any other have I claimed that Hydrocare was a water softener nor does the manufacturer make any such claims. I have also never claimed that the traditional salt brine water softener doesn't work for softening water as I will admit that most do work very well. Hydrocare offers an alternative to the water softener for removing and controlling lime scale build up. This product also is an alternative to the traditional water softener for those end users who who like myself do not like the slimy feel of soft water and have concerns for the environmental issues of dumping tons of salt brine down our sewer systems and eventually into our environment. Some posters in this forum have made claims that the perception that with a product like Hydrocare we have some increased sudsing with soap and decreased hard water spotting is purely anecdotal. Isn't the claim that the slimy feel of softened water, which supposedly is moisturizing the skin and cuts down on skin creams and dry itchy flaky skin etc.. just as anecdotal , or is there actual scientific proof that this is the case?



It does seem to me that the claims made should be supported with documentation--particularly claims like "30% increased efficiencies in heating water" and "saves thousands of gallons of water", and "extends the life of your entire plumbing system and appliances" .

The energy savings claim claim is based upon that if you remove the built up lime scale on a water heater's heat exchanger the unit will heat water more efficiently and thus use less energy and 30% in savings is not out of line. By the way the information for this claim was based upon findings from British Gas. Lime sale is also one of the main contributors to water heater failure so removing it will extend the life of an average water heater.

Saving thousands of gallons of water is also very true, the average salt brine water softener uses on average about 20,000 gallons of water to recharge itself per year. This water goes down the drain. Hydrocare does not recharge with water so it saves that 20,000 gallons a year.



I would also like to see documentation for the statement that it costs a fraction of a water softener. If it can be purchased for $600 I can point to a water softener that can be purchased for $450--and that "fraction" is 1 and 1/3 or 1.33 times MORE than a water softener.

I do not know about the market you are in, but in mine the 2 largest water treatment dealers who both sell nationally known whole house water systems, start their pricing in the $5000 range, and I have seen quotes as high as $10,000. These systems are granted high end but are basically a brine water softener and a R/O under sink drinking water system. They both use high handed and high pressure sales tactics to "scare" their customers into making their purchases. I have heard reports that their sales people tell potential customers that our city water has deadly bacteria and that they are slowly poisoning their family with city tap water. In an earlier post I made reference this this. I have seen the big box home improvement stores sell water softeners in the $500 to $700 range but these prices do not include installation which will run into several hundred dollars more. Does the $450 for a water softener you can point to include installation.

terrydbhm
10-18-2009, 08:05 AM
Terrydbhm, If PWT or 'no salt' softeners worked, it wouldn't matter what type it was, I and everyone else selling ion exchange softeners, and most selling water treatment chemicals, would be selling the stuff.

Frankly most of us are as honest as the day is long but you guys act as if we are all liars and crooks etc. raping the environment.
(http://terrylove.com/forums/member.php?u=34801)

Gary, I have never called you a crook and from what information I have found out about you, you are one of the good guys and someone I would most likely trust if I wanted to buy a water softener. But you know there are a lot of bad apples out there selling the same products that you are.

I also know of and have talked to several water treatment companies who are selling Hydrocare along with thier traditional ion exchange products. One of these in Florida told me he has had great success with Hydrocare and sees this product as the future in hard water treatment and wanted to be on the ground floor. He sees down the road that salt brine discharges are going to be legislatively banned and that more and more alternatives are going to be developed in this industry and wants to be the first not last one in his market offering these products.

terrydbhm
10-18-2009, 08:13 AM
To the best of my knowledge: the FDA does not certify technology; the API, on the consumer level, certifies the ratings of motor oil; the WCP is the international equivalent of the WQA; the WQA has declined to certify the Hydrocare HC38 (the presumption among some being that they are biased towards innovative technologies); and the NSF at this time has a copy of the OnSpeX report but has taken no action.
.

Again you didn't answer my question. We all know that the WQA and NSF have not certified the Hydropath technology as of today. But today is and tomorrow could be and it that day were to happen would you accept their findings and certification?

Bob999
10-18-2009, 09:51 AM
Does the $450 for a water softener you can point to include installation.

No--it is an internet provider delivered price for a 1 cubic foot unit with a Fleck 5600 demand valve.

sjsmithjr
10-18-2009, 10:10 AM
Again you didn't answer my question. We all know that the WQA and NSF have not certified the Hydropath technology as of today. But today is and tomorrow could be and it that day were to happen would you accept their findings and certification?

I'm not going to waste any more of my time with salesmen who insult me, without deference to forum rules, by making false accusations, calling me narrow minded, and accusing me of having a hidden agenda.

Gary Slusser
10-18-2009, 11:55 AM
Gary, I have never called you a crook and from what information I have found out about you, you are one of the good guys and someone I would most likely trust if I wanted to buy a water softener. But you know there are a lot of bad apples out there selling the same products that you are.
I didn't say you did, I said the guys selling PWT do; but thanks.

You are repeating bad info though. You say 20,000 gallons of water per year is used by softeners to regenerate. That is 55 gals/day and totally wrong by more than at least 95%. The average water use is 30-50 gals per WEEK.

The average salt used per week is from 6-12 lbs. And it is not the cause of the high chlorides problem California thinks it is. And now a few other states are picking up on it because they too are against ion exchange softening based on fake environmental "concerns"; just like global warming.

As to the slippery feeling. Very very few people feel that way while the vast majority of people with softened water love the feel, and understand it is doing their bods and hair good. BTW, it takes 21 days to make or break a good or bad habit. Also, once a person has a softener and they use hard water, they REALLY HATE IT, much more so than the slippery feeling which disappears as soon as you dry yourself by patting yourself with a towel.

My thinking is that many people that are so against PWT becasue there is no certification, they won't be changing their thinking much if it were to be certified. And the PWT guys are mostly the cause of that IMO because they compare the product to water softeners, which really, there is no comparison because PWT is an anti-scale device, and not able to soften water, which creates that "feeling" you guys gone on about but people actually enjoy.

terrydbhm
10-18-2009, 12:41 PM
I don't waste my time with salesmen who insult me, in difference to forum rules, by making false accusations, calling me narrow minded, and accusing me of having a hidden agenda.

Your reference to me as a mere "salesman" I find demeaning and meant to be an insult. I own my own very successful water treatment business and yes I also do some of my sales and marketing. My company has a spotless record with the local BBB and a reputation for delivering as promised and standing behind every product we sell.

I asked a very simple question that so far you refuse to answer about what you would accept for testing or certification of a new technology. So far your answers to this question have been accusations that I am attacking you for not accepting your critical attacks against a product I firmly believe in and sell with a 100% satisfaction. Have you been a politician at some time?:confused: IMO I still believe you have a hidden agenda here.

sjsmithjr
10-18-2009, 12:42 PM
Anecdotal?? It is total relevant to this discussion as to whether the product works as intended and marketed. British Gas was instrumental in the development and TESTING of the Hydropath technology 14 years ago and concluded from their testing that it did work and have been endorsing it ever since and have thousands of very satisfied customers in the UK. Your amusing story about back braces is what has no relevance to this discussion.

Your comments have finally tipped your hand to your true agenda, you are not interested in any testing by anyone or group that proves that this technology works. In your closed mind you will never accept this product no matter who tests or endorses its merits. My guess is you are a plant sent to this discussion by some traditional water softener trade group to debunk this technology no matter what. I would bet money that if in the future if some group like the WQA, NSF, WCP, FDA, API etc. were to test the product and certify the technology you will still be screaming SCAM!!:p

Please point out the question in your earlier post.

As to whether or not I've ever been a politician, the answer is no. I have been, in adult life, a laborer, a plumbers helper, a bartender, a gas jockey, a counterman at an auto parts store, a roadie, a civil engineering field technician, and a geologist.

I do, however, see a few unfounded and inappropriate allegations. For example; when I ever referred to your product as "scam"?

terrydbhm
10-18-2009, 12:57 PM
Please point out the question in your earlier post.

As to whether or not I've ever been a politician, the answer is no. I have been, in adult life, a laborer, a plumbers helper, a bartender, a gas jockey, a counterman at an auto parts store, a roadie, a civil engineering field technician, and a geologist.

I do, however, see a few unfounded and inappropriate allegations. For example; when I ever referred to your product as "scam"?

I do apologize in the original post I didn't exactly put this in a questions format but in post 103 I did. And after going back through your posting I was wrong to accuse you of using the word scam, I was confusing your posting with several by Peter Griffin:

Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
I can't help but feel bad for those that have bought into this bunk. You have been scammed by smooth talking salesmen with very convincing pseudo-science into believing that these products will do things that are for the most part contrary to the laws of physics and chemistry. Worse yet, nobody likes to throw money away. ..

terrydbhm
10-18-2009, 01:15 PM
Mr Smith as a geologist would you be interested in a copy of a case study that was prepared and presented to the Society of Petroleum Engineers annual meeting in Aberdeen Scotland in May 2008 that detailed a very complete study of the use of the Hydropath technology in preventing scale in oil well drilling?

Peter Griffin
10-18-2009, 03:47 PM
Mr Smith as a geologist would you be interested in a copy of a case study that was prepared and presented to the Society of Petroleum Engineers annual meeting in Aberdeen Scotland in May 2008 that detailed a very complete study of the use of the Hydropath technology in preventing scale in oil well drilling?

I have read that paper, again ZERO scientific evidence to start with, and yet another testimonial. To quote a very old commercial "where's the beef"? I will bet you that in 100% of these "industrial" applications the person doing the reporting had no scientific evidence or background from which to base their assumptions coupled with results that are most often a result of a lowering of the waters PH due to high consumption. Why don't you find some real, verifiable evidence. Testing done by ANY agency along with the results and then print publish them here. No more bogus case studies and glowing customer testimonials, we want REAL proof. An NO you don't have to compare it to a traditional softener, just publish some real results. White powdery residue is not a real result, and I'll tell you why. So what, you get white powder, is white powder a good thing? Is that what you want coming out of your faucets?

terrydbhm
10-19-2009, 05:44 AM
I have read that paper, again ZERO scientific evidence to start with, and yet another testimonial. To quote a very old commercial "where's the beef"? I will bet you that in 100% of these "industrial" applications the person doing the reporting had no scientific evidence or background from which to base their assumptions coupled with results that are most often a result of a lowering of the waters PH due to high consumption. Why don't you find some real, verifiable evidence. Testing done by ANY agency along with the results and then print publish them here. No more bogus case studies and glowing customer testimonials, we want REAL proof. An NO you don't have to compare it to a traditional softener, just publish some real results. White powdery residue is not a real result, and I'll tell you why. So what, you get white powder, is white powder a good thing? Is that what you want coming out of your faucets?

Mr Griifin, I did NOT ASK you if you wanted a copy of the SPE paper as I doubt as a Plumbing Inspector you are qualified to make any comments on scientific merits of the study. I asked sjsmithjr if he wanted a copy because as a Geologist he may be qualified to discuss the merits of the study more than others in this forum.

I also assume that from your comments if an organization or agency like the WQA, CWQA or the NSF was to test Hydrocare and certify the technology you would accept the findings? Would you accept any certification from these agencies? That may not happen today but who knows about down the road.

The white powdery residue are the Ca and Mg ions clusters that are left when the water containing them evaporates. This powder wipes of with a damp cloth not with caustic lime scale chemicals like Lime Away, CLR or Kaboom which is needed to remove lime scale from untreated water. By the way this residue is very minimal compared to the cement like hard water stains from untreated hard water. I would rather have a little powdery residue than lime scale build up in my water heater and plumbing system and shower glass surfaces.

terrydbhm
10-19-2009, 05:55 AM
No--it is an internet provider delivered price for a 1 cubic foot unit with a Fleck 5600 demand valve.

How many first time buyers of a water soft water system are going to buy it over the Internet and then have to find someone to do the installation? In my market anyone wanting to buy and install locally is going to get hit for $5000 minimum for a whole house system. I have in the past directed many people who have called me about salt brine water softeners to the big box retailers but they usually are worried about whether these retailers have the staff to help them make the correct buying choice for their application.

terrydbhm
10-19-2009, 07:26 AM
I know that some in this forum do not want to hear testimonials about how Hydrocare has worked in any application with out a scientific study to verify that the results are scientifically accurate. Not all things observed can be explained with pure science.

I just talked with a customer of mine who has been using a Hydrocare system in a commercial application. He runs a commercial organic green house that produces mini greens and uses a very fine water misting system to irrigate which comes on for 6 seconds every 10 minutes. He is on city tap water that is around 22-25 gpg of hardness. Prior to Hydrocare he had to take off the misting heads every 3-4 weeks to clean them in an acid solution as they clogged up with the lime scale. His options for treating the water were very limited as a brine water softener could not be used due to the salt content of the treated water for irrigating. One of my competitors tried to sell him an R/O system but he was concerned about the 15,000 gallons or more of water he would be wasting every month per each green house. After almost 8 weeks now with a Hydrocare unit installed he reports that his misting heads have no lime scale build up and he is ecstatic about the results. We will be installing more units now on his other green house locations. Is this scientific proof that the Hydrocare unit works? Maybe not, but the only variable that has changed is the Hydrocare unit and so far there has been no lime scale build up in his misting heads. If someone else can explain this please take a shot.

Gary Slusser
10-19-2009, 10:11 AM
How many first time buyers of a water soft water system are going to buy it over the Internet and then have to find someone to do the installation?

In my market anyone wanting to buy and install locally is going to get hit for $5000 minimum for a whole house system.

I have in the past directed many people who have called me about salt brine water softeners to the big box retailers but they usually are worried about whether these retailers have the staff to help them make the correct buying choice for their application.
I have been doing internet sales since mid 2002 but really started in Jan of 2004. I have done a 1/4 million a year as one guy talking to 99.9% of all the people that buy from me, and that is at internet pricing.

Research shows that 75%+ of people wanting to buy a 'major' purchase do research online before the purchase. There are many that buy a softener online and install it themselves or hire a plumber or handyman to do it. Installing a softener is quite easy for anyone to learn how to do it. About 80% of my customers are DIYers.

BTW, they would never buy locally, because many of them have and don't like the prices and service from the local dealers.

Big box store brands are low quality and the most complained about equipment sold. The warranties are short (90 days to 3 years) and the materials used in the control valve (ABS plastic) are very low quality. All big box brands are made by one company (Ecowater) and the parts are interchangeable; Kenmore, Whirlpool, GE, North Star, mortonsalt.com.

So I'd appreciate it if you sent those people wanting a water softener to me instead of the big box stores. I sell real equipment for the same everyday price; with full, non prorated, 5 an 10 year warranties. And if you did enough of it I'd make it worth your time.

Gary Slusser
10-19-2009, 10:18 AM
I know that some in this forum do not want to hear testimonials about how Hydrocare has worked in any application with out a scientific study to verify that the results are scientifically accurate. Not all things observed can be explained with pure science.

I just talked with a customer of mine who has been using a Hydrocare system in a commercial application. He runs a commercial organic green house that produces mini greens and uses a very fine water misting system to irrigate which comes on for 6 seconds every 10 minutes. He is on city tap water that is around 22-25 gpg of hardness. Prior to Hydrocare he had to take off the misting heads every 3-4 weeks to clean them in an acid solution as they clogged up with the lime scale. His options for treating the water were very limited as a brine water softener could not be used due to the salt content of the treated water for irrigating. One of my competitors tried to sell him an R/O system but he was concerned about the 15,000 gallons or more of water he would be wasting every month per each green house. After almost 8 weeks now with a Hydrocare unit installed he reports that his misting heads have no lime scale build up and he is ecstatic about the results. We will be installing more units now on his other green house locations. Is this scientific proof that the Hydrocare unit works? Maybe not, but the only variable that has changed is the Hydrocare unit and so far there has been no lime scale build up in his misting heads. If someone else can explain this please take a shot.
It's true there is no science based test(s) to prove the visual results but the same was true of long runout landslides, 1000' and higher tsunamis and such for over a hundred years. I don't consider the guy would lie and if I saw his spray heads before and after, I'd say it worked too.

And IMO that type application is the market for PWT, not so much in residential.

terrydbhm
10-19-2009, 10:52 AM
I have been doing internet sales since mid 2002 but really started in Jan of 2004. I have done a 1/4 million a year as one guy talking to 99.9% of all the people that buy from me, and that is at internet pricing.

Research shows that 75%+ of people wanting to buy a 'major' purchase do research online before the purchase. There are many that buy a softener online and install it themselves or hire a plumber or handyman to do it. Installing a softener is quite easy for anyone to learn how to do it. About 80% of my customers are DIYers.

So I'd appreciate it if you sent those people wanting a water softener to me instead of the big box stores. I sell real equipment for the same everyday price; with full, non prorated, 5 an 10 year warranties. And if you did enough of it I'd make it worth your time.

I would not have thought that that many people would buy a water softener over the Internet. The local dealers here have such bad reputations and terribly service along with outrageous pricing. Several of my commercial customers have asked why I haven't gotten into the business. I tell them I hate working nights and weekends but the real reasons are much different. In my state you have to be a licensed plumber by the state to install a water softener, something I have no desire to do. Also a permit is required to install any unit and in this state you have to have a business license in every city and county you install the unit, not just where your home office location is located. Also sales tax has to be paid to each taxing authority which means you write a check to the state , the county and the city the unit is located.
I do not have to install the Hydrocare units, no plumber required and the customer can pick it up at my office so I only have a business license at my office location and just write sales tax checks to my city and county. I know that I will not sell a Hydrocare to every potential hard water customer and I do like the idea of referring those people wanting traditional water softeners to you, specially since 2 of the local water softener dealers are also my main competitors in my POU commercial drinking water cooler business. I love every opportunity of taking residential business away from them which is why in the past I referred people to the big box retailers.

sjsmithjr
10-19-2009, 01:00 PM
If you are referring to a paper entitled Two Year Results of a Breakthrough Physical Water Treating System for Control of Scale in Oilfield Applications that was presented as a poster session at the SPE Ninth International Conference on Oilfield Scale in Aberdeen, UK, May 28-29, 2008, then I have read it.

Let's all keep in mind that while the SPE did not formally review the contents of the paper and that the material contained does not neccessarly reflect any position of the SPE, the SPE does require that any data presented in the paper be technically correct.

It's a good paper. If I were given to hyperbole I would say that is the anthesis of the OnSpeX evaluation that seems to be the source of our disagreement. Note that I said the OnSpex evaluation; neither now or in the past have I denied the feasibility of physical water treatment technology (PWT).


Not all things observed can be explained with pure science.

True. But in this case, both the operating principles and effects can be. May I suggest some reading material for you? You may find it beneficial should you ever find yourself in a position to make the pitch for the better testing to quanitatively demonstrate the effectiveness of this particular varient of PWT in a residential environment.

Peter Griffin
10-19-2009, 02:39 PM
Wow, 117 replies, Hot topic

terrydbhm
10-20-2009, 06:09 AM
Here is the link to the original British Gas case study and paper about the Hydropath technology from August 1992.


http://www.hydrowerksusa.com/Images/Case%20Studies/CS_BritishGasReport.pdf

sjsmithjr
10-20-2009, 08:34 AM
Here is the link to the original British Gas case study and paper about the Hydropath technology from August 1992.


http://www.hydrowerksusa.com/Images/Case%20Studies/CS_BritishGasReport.pdf

I know you think I'm too picky, but that is a link to extracts from the original British Gas Summary Report. You wouldn't happen to have a copy of the original report in English would you? I only have it in German and although I can read it, I wouldn't want to rely on my translation for the purposes of a discussion in a public forum.

Thanks!

terrydbhm
10-20-2009, 09:08 AM
I know you think I'm too picky, but that is a link to extracts from the original British Gas Report. You wouldn't happen to have a copy of the original report in English would you? I only have it in German and although I can read it, I wouldn't want rely on my translation for the purposes of a discussion in a public forum.

Thanks!

As far as I can find this summary report of 10 pages is the only release that British Gas has made available on public domain. I have made an inquiry to BG to see if they will release the whole repot in English.

Peter Griffin
10-20-2009, 01:27 PM
Well, I have spent the last few days doing some digging around on the subject of this product with the end result being that I think I will back off on any more criticism. Not because I have had a revelation but rather because it seems that every single credible scientist that has specifically investigated the claims and attempted to publish the results has been threatened with a lawsuit from the manufacturer. How dare you report the truth, we will sue you.

terrydbhm
10-20-2009, 01:39 PM
Well, I have spent the last few days doing some digging around on the subject of this product with the end result being that I think I will back off on any more criticism. Not because I have had a revelation but rather because it seems that every single credible scientist that has specifically investigated the claims and attempted to publish the results has been threatened with a lawsuit from the manufacturer. How dare you report the truth, we will sue you.

What proof do you have to back up this latest outlandish statement of yours? Which credible scientists have been threatened? Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me:p I think the truth is more that you can not find any scientific evidence that can really debunk the Hydropath technology so in your mind it has to be a conspiracy. :p:p Have fun at the Holiday Inn Express tonight.

Peter Griffin
10-20-2009, 04:28 PM
Think what you will my good man, I know what I know.

gluecan
10-21-2009, 02:38 AM
I haven't seen that specific model in use but I have seen a few other electronic anti-scale descale devices with wires you wrap around the pipe on both sides of the thing that did change the water.

They caused a white powdery film on surfaces where the water was allowed to evaporate on; shower doors and walls, counters, sinks, they all looked like talcum power was blown all over them.

So IMO there is something to them but no one knows how they do whatever they do to water and none of them do it all the time or in all locations on all different waters.

Someday someone might be doing something and have one of those AHHA! light goes on moments and all will be explained. Like long run out landslides that scientists saw evidence all over the world but said since no one could prove a landslide was responsible, they denied it and ruined careers of those that insisted it was.

Kinda like we thought stomach ulcers were caused by worry etc. until some guy down under finally proved his theory that it was a bacteria, Heliobacter Pylori bacteria to be specific; found in groundwater.

have you read the risk of cancer from water softener and salt if not do some looking around

Gary Slusser
10-21-2009, 07:19 AM
have you read the risk of cancer from water softener and salt if not do some looking around
No I haven't. What type of cancer is it?

Can you point me to some info on that?

terrydbhm
10-21-2009, 07:47 AM
No I haven't. What type of cancer is it? What type of cancer is it?

Can you point me to some info on that?

Gary, I have heard about this claim and it has been made by several whole house filtration dealers who sell a rather expensive carbon filter R/O type of system. Also some PWT product dealers make these claims as well. Hydrocare does not make any claims to this and when I looked into it I could not find any scientific study to back up this claim about salt from water softeners and cancer.

gluecan
10-21-2009, 09:59 AM
Gary, I have heard about this claim and it has been made by several whole house filtration dealers who sell a rather expensive carbon filter R/O type of system. Also some PWT product dealers make these claims as well. Hydrocare does not make any claims to this and when I looked into it I could not find any scientific study to back up this claim about salt from water softeners and cancer.

skin mayo and john hopkin have study reports out

terrydbhm
10-21-2009, 11:43 AM
skin mayo and john hopkin have study reports out

Gluecan, giving you the benefit of my doubts on this, I Googled both "John Hopkins and Skin Mayo water softener salt cancer". The results that came back were to a couple of vague references to the benefits of soft water (salt) on the skin.:confused::confused:

Please rather than make wild statements on this forum, show the links to the reports that you reference in your posting. Making these unsubstantiated statements adds nothing to your credibility. I know from my own past experience, you need to substantiate and produce verifiable scientific research to be taken seriously here.

Peter Griffin
10-21-2009, 02:57 PM
http://forum.*************/showthread.php?t=3643&page=6

Apparently this is not the only forum that this product has been brought up on, with much the same results. Notice, if you decide to visit there that when things start to get heated, all the "newbies" begin posting in defense of the product, expectidly with no proof what so ever. The sad thing here is that this whole scheme seems to revolve around getting the most Google coverage possible and to that end Hydro Path has suceeded.

terrydbhm
10-22-2009, 05:51 AM
http://forum.*************/showthread.php?t=3643&page=6

Apparently this is not the only forum that this product has been brought up on, with much the same results. Notice, if you decide to visit there that when things start to get heated, all the "newbies" begin posting in defense of the product, expectidly with no proof what so ever. The sad thing here is that this whole scheme seems to revolve around getting the most Google coverage possible and to that end Hydro Path has suceeded.

Your conspiracy theory goes on and on and on. . . . . We are still waiting for the scientific verifiable proof that you claimed to have that Hydropath doesn't work. Maybe you are afraid of the men in black suits who are following you?

terrydbhm
10-22-2009, 07:56 AM
http://forum.*************/showthread.php?t=3643&page=6

Apparently this is not the only forum that this product has been brought up on, with much the same results. Notice, if you decide to visit there that when things start to get heated, all the "newbies" begin posting in defense of the product, expectidly with no proof what so ever. The sad thing here is that this whole scheme seems to revolve around getting the most Google coverage possible and to that end Hydro Path has suceeded.

I have had enough from you sir and your wild accusations and statements and can no longer hold my tongue. At least the "newbies" do not hide their true identities behind false names and cartoon characters. Peter Griffin is a character on Family Guy which is the avatar you have. You do not list your location on the forum nor any other information about you that is credible. You spout out conspiracy theories about scientists being threatened from publishing anything that counters the Hydropath technology. Why not show your true identity and agenda and until you do you have absolutely no credibility in this forum or on this subject.

sjsmithjr
10-22-2009, 08:24 AM
To be fair, Terry, you did insinuate that Caoimhín P. Connell had "been less than truthful in his reported attempts to get the same information" re the OnSpeX report. You also asserted that you thought that the ONSpex legal department should bring libel charges against Mr Connell. And, as with me, you did accuse him of being a plant.

Why do you feel the need to impunge the reputations of those who do not agree with you?

terrydbhm
10-22-2009, 08:36 AM
To be fair, Terry, you did insinuate that Caoimhín P. Connell had "been less than truthful in his reported attempts to get the same information" re the OnSpeX report. You also asserted that you thought that the ONSpex legal department should bring libel charges against Mr Connell. And, as with me, you did accuse him of being a plant.

Why do you feel the need to impunge the reputations of those who do not agree with you?

Mr Connel made several untruthful statements about his contacting OnSpex, RS jackson and the report but that's another matter.
At least you and Mr Connel are not hiding behind false names and spouting outlandish unsubstantiated conspiracy theories about negative research done on the Hydropath technology.

sjsmithjr
10-22-2009, 08:58 AM
Mr Connel made several untruthful statements about his contacting OnSpex, RS jackson and the report but that's another matter. Connel also misrepresented his background and occupation.

Those are very serious assertions to make with supporting evidence. Are you sure that a public forum is the appropriate place to make such accusations regarding a professional's ethics?

terrydbhm
10-22-2009, 10:37 AM
Those are very serious assertions to make with supporting evidence. Are you sure that a public forum is the appropriate place to make such accusations regarding a professional's ethics?

Connel made claims to have talked to Onspex and Hydrocare to get copies of the Onspex report, neither of which had any record of his contacts. He indicated that the failure of Hydrocare to send him the Onspex "secret" report meant that there was something Hydrocare was hiding. He accused me of being a plant from Hydrocare and even that I and another individual who posted his positive results with Hydrocare were probably the same person. He claimed that we were all part of some "sham" on behalf of Hydrocare. He also claimed that I was hiding behind a pseudonym but in that particular forum a "newbie" poster is not allowed to post web sites or emails etc, so I was not hiding behind anything. Connel is a forensic investigator for the police department in Colorado and does investigations into meths labs He is also an expert on indoor mold and air quality. On that forum he was a frequent poster on air quality issues but when he got involved with the Hydrocare questions something outside his norm it really looked like he was a plant or working for some agenda. I have never questioned his business ethics only his motives for getting involved in the discussions. I have deleted in my earlier post the commentd about Connel's background as that was inappropriate as much later in the forum discussion he finally provided some information about work he had done in sewage treatment but again he never provided any information as to whether he had any background in hard water treatment.

Gary Slusser
10-22-2009, 12:07 PM
I agree with the anonymous posters thing. I think if they are going to "debate" in negatives they should man up and say who what and where they are. Me thinks they trend toward being more honest then.

Peter Griffin
10-22-2009, 02:01 PM
I have had enough from you sir and your wild accusations and statements and can no longer hold my tongue. At least the "newbies" do not hide their true identities behind false names and cartoon characters. Peter Griffin is a character on Family Guy which is the avatar you have. You do not list your location on the forum nor any other information about you that is credible. You spout out conspiracy theories about scientists being threatened from publishing anything that counters the Hydropath technology. Why not show your true identity and agenda and until you do you have absolutely no credibility in this forum or on this subject.

Apparently a nerve has been hit. No, I will not give my name, and for many reasons, not the least of which is opening myself up to a lawsuit from Hydro Path who it seems are more than happy to threaten lawsuits against anyone that dares impune their product. However, I will say that I have the background, the resources and the degree to back up my claims. I'm going to say this one last time. Electric pulses, magnetism radio waves in any or all possible permutations have been used for these products, by multiple companies for many years now. They come and they go. Any chemist, any physicist will tell you that beyond doubt of any sort, NONE of these products or methods have any viable effect on water chemistry whatsoever and in fact all of them make claims that are contrary to the laws of physics, chemistry and the laws of thermo-dynamics. Yes, as Gary has said before, scientist are always learning new things, but they have been investigating these things and experimenting with these processes for close to a hundred years now.
I will however offer an olive branch here, let's say a chance to put the issue to rest. You send me a HydroPath unit. I have 4 gas fired tankless units set up for demonstration purposes that I will test the unit on. I will run 100 gallons of fairly hard water though a unit for 30 days and measure the scale build up pre and post HydroPath, and fairly report the results to the entire world if that is what you would like. I eagerly await your refusal.

Peter Griffin
10-22-2009, 02:14 PM
I agree with the anonymous posters thing. I think if they are going to "debate" in negatives they should man up and say who what and where they are. Me thinks they trend toward being more honest then.

Hey, how do you know my name is not Peter Griffin? Check the phone book, it's filled with them :D
However, I'll bet more than half of the members here and on other forums do not post their names or addresses because they just don't want to deal with the possible consequences of people harassing them etc.

sjsmithjr
10-22-2009, 04:05 PM
Hey, how do you know my name is not Peter Griffin? Check the phone book, it's filled with them :D

My first love had the surname Griffin. I know... completely off topic... completely unrelated... but still... I can't help but smile and remember...

At any rate, several of the moderators on this forum use "screen names" that can not be verified and to the best of knowledge it is allowed here.

sjsmithjr
10-22-2009, 05:41 PM
Connel is a forensic investigator for the police department in Colorado and does investigations into meths labs He is also an expert on indoor mold and air quality.

Its Connell, by the way. In addition to the above, he was analytical chemist for a US EPA CLP laboratory (at the Colorado School of Mines I believe). He serves (served) on three of the ASTM International Standards Committees: D22 (Indoor Air Quality), E30 (Forensic Sciences) and the E50 (Environmental Assessment, Risk Management and Corrective Action). Mr. Connell was the primary author of Colorado's new regulatory protocols on methlab assessments. He was on the original citizen's committee for the promulgation of Colorado's asbestos regulation.

I will ask you again in more direct language - do you really wish to question this man's integrity?

Peter Griffin
10-22-2009, 06:37 PM
SJ, I have been battling these charlatans for years now. An internet search using the words " Water treatment scams " will bring up hundreds of web sites devoted to these products. (hydropath, zeta rod, easy water et. al ) They have been around for a very long time indeed. The one thing that research shows time and time again is that absolutely NONE of them has ever lived up to it's promise, and furthermore, none of them has ever stood up to real, verifiable lab testing. Furthermore most of them use the exact same tactics when confronted by experts in the field and that is to attempt to discredit the expert by claiming that he has some "ulterior" motive for his findings. Of course the ulterior motive is never revealed and if you really think about it, why would there be a motive in the first place. Mr Connell, as you have said, has impeccable credentials and most likely the only motive driving his comments is the same motive that I have, and that is simply to save folks from being scammed into spending their hard earned money on a product that simply does not work. All too often these folks buy into this stuff because it is marginally (though not always) less expensive than traditional treatment methods.
I, and many others can and have written pages explaining the " chemistry and physics " behind why these units can not possibly do what they claim to do and yet, the peddlers of this stuff totally dismiss modern science as though the laws of physics can be ignored because they say so. It's ludicrous for anyone to believe that a device that plugs into 120V A/C could even begin to produce an effect at all.

I wish to repeat to all that have labored through reading all these posts that one way or another, it is vital to do your homework before taking anyone's word for anything.

terrydbhm
10-23-2009, 06:16 AM
I have been battling these charlatans for years now. An internet search using the words " Water treatment scams " will bring up hundreds of web sites devoted to these products. (hydropath, zeta rod, easy water et. al ) .
Including many sites about companies selling traditional brine water softeners.


I wish to repeat to all that have labored through reading all these posts that one way or another, it is vital to do your homework before taking anyone's word for anything.

Mr. Griffin is correct do your homework as there are pros and cons with all water treatment devises and you have to determine what is best for your hard water condition and what results you want from that treatment. But do not base your decisions upon postings from those on this forum or any other like Mr. Griffin who hide behind false cartoon names and fail to provide verifiable public credentials to back up any assumptions or conclusions they make on any technology. Trust those on these forums who provide web sites, with contact information, and business locations as they most likely have nothing to hide over those who refuse to do the same.

Finally read testimonials from actual end users of any product or technology. Hydropath has over one million end users worldwide sold under the Hydropath, Hydroflow and Hydrocare name. Google Hydropath, Hydroflow and Hydrocare testimonials and look at the Hydrocare USA and Hydroflow Canada web sites there are many of them to view. I personally communicated with most of the testimonial givers on the Hydrocare USA website and verified their authenticity as part of my due diligence before I decided to become a dealer. Conversely Google the same for complaints as I have done and you will find none. With over a million worldwide users, if the product did not work, I would think someone by now would have posted on the Internet. If you check the Internet for Hydropath, Hydroflow and Hydrocare scams you will find everyone who has a negative opinion on the Hydropath technology has never actually used or tested one for themselves.

Peter Griffin
10-23-2009, 11:53 AM
So now you are going to resort to attacking the messenger and not the message ? To be expected I suppose.

As for scams involving traditional treatment equipment the vast majority of them deal with disreputable companies that falsify water test results to sell equipment. It is not the equipment that is a fault but rather the salesmen.

As far as my hiding behind a cartoon character let me ask you this. Would knowing my name, reading my degree. Examining my licenses and certificates make a bit of difference as to the credibility of my words? If so then we must look at your eight years of experience and match them up against say Gary's 30 years of experience. To whom should we take advice from? This is after all a forum discussion. If you wish us to take your word than you must extend the same courtesy to us.

Furthermore, why would I want to give everyone my name, number and address and open myself up to harassment and frivolous law suits ? I enjoy my anonymity here. A good sniper never gives away his position ;)

And finally....... My offer to test the product still stands. I eagerly await shipment :rolleyes:

Gary Slusser
10-23-2009, 12:35 PM
See now I was going to bet you $5000 that you didn't mean it when you said 'I'll say this one last time' a page ago.

BTW, I see other reasons for being anonymous and none of them are good IMO.

And that 30 day test, that isn't a test.

Peter Griffin
10-23-2009, 02:32 PM
I know, but it's like a car wreck that you just can't stop looking at. You would have been 5 grand richer for sure ;)

I can see why you have no problem publishing your name and stats but for many of us, we would just as soon not have to put up with the possible side effects. After all, better than half the mods don't publish their stats and many of the members also. Problem now is that if he (terrydbm) had pm'd me a while back I might have given it out there, but now that I have talked with some of the guys that have tangled with hydropath I'm glad I did not.

You will all please note that thus far, as heated as this discussion has been at times, there have been no personal attacks or insults toward members, only those directed at the product and company. I hope it stays this way

Gary, 3 months, 6 months a year, it makes no difference cause it will never happen. Furthermore even if I was to purchase the product and test it, the results would be criticized or the methods, or I would be sued. Been here, tried that.

Gary Slusser
10-24-2009, 04:24 PM
You should know that if that company were to come after anonymous you, all they need is your IP number off of Terry's logs and they can find you really quick.

Since my first visit to the internet on Jan 2 1997, I have used my real name etc.. I have received some spam email but nothing that can't be dealt with in like 5 minutes a day to send it to the Trash folder. IMO it's unfounded fear that makes people use made up pretend names. Real men don't do that, we stick our heads up every once in awhile just to see where the fire is coming from, and then we adapt, improvise and overcome. Then we call the others woosies.

Peter Griffin
10-25-2009, 05:23 AM
Perhaps, but due to the nature of my job, I really want to keep the nut cases at bay. Besides, like I said before. Does knowing the poster name make a bit of difference as to the validity of the post? Remember that most of the mods here are not using their real names and I would imagine, for the same reasons as I.

Allen Meyers
10-25-2009, 06:06 AM
Perhaps, but due to the nature of my job, I really want to keep the nut cases at bay. Besides, like I said before. Does knowing the poster name make a bit of difference as to the validity of the post? Remember that most of the mods here are not using their real names and I would imagine, for the same reasons as I.I 100% agree!!! Why do anything you are not comfortable with? If we do not enjoy this what is the point? It is not like anyone makes money here. Or, do they?

Peter Griffin
10-25-2009, 06:09 AM
Thanks Allen, I don't know but the holidays are coming up quick and I for one could use a few extra dollars. Oh well, I guess I can always put the Santa Suit back on :(

Allen Meyers
10-25-2009, 06:22 AM
Thanks Allen, I don't know but the holidays are coming up quick and I for one could use a few extra dollars. Oh well, I guess I can always put the Santa Suit back on :(See, you would enjoy being Santa. That is great!:D

Berengaria
10-25-2009, 10:57 AM
Okay you guys. I wanted to find out if HydroCare was on the level or not but I would say that folks on this forum are about 50% for and 50% against. So what is an 80 year old lady to do? I decided to buy one tomorrow and try it myself. That's the only way I'm ever going to find out. They offer a money back guarantee so I can't lose too much and I really hope it works. If not, it won't be the first time I've fallen for a scam and maybe not the last. I'll keep a record of what happens, if anything, and get back here in several months with an unbiased, unsolicited report.

Thanks for all the information and keep up the flaming. It's fun reading.

Berengaria

Allen Meyers
10-25-2009, 11:05 AM
Okay you guys. I wanted to find out if HydroCare was on the level or not but I would say that folks on this forum are about 50% for and 50% against. So what is an 80 year old lady to do? I decided to buy one tomorrow and try it myself. That's the only way I'm ever going to find out. They offer a money back guarantee so I can't lose too much and I really hope it works. If not, it won't be the first time I've fallen for a scam and maybe not the last. I'll keep a record of what happens, if anything, and get back here in several months with an unbiased, unsolicited report.

Thanks for all the information and keep up the flaming. It's fun reading.

BerengariaI think you will like it. Everyone is just familiar with their own products here. Almost normal! LOL LOL

terrydbhm
10-25-2009, 11:16 AM
You should know that if that company were to come after anonymous you, all they need is your IP number off of Terry's logs and they can find you really quick..

Now you have done it, you might have just driven the paranoids over the edge!!:rolleyes: They will be putting on their aluminum foil hats and forever be watching over their shoulders for the men in black suits they are convinced are following them.:eek:

terrydbhm
10-25-2009, 11:24 AM
Okay you guys. I wanted to find out if HydroCare was on the level or not but I would say that folks on this forum are about 50% for and 50% against. So what is an 80 year old lady to do? I decided to buy one tomorrow and try it myself. That's the only way I'm ever going to find out. They offer a money back guarantee so I can't lose too much and I really hope it works. If not, it won't be the first time I've fallen for a scam and maybe not the last. I'll keep a record of what happens, if anything, and get back here in several months with an unbiased, unsolicited report.

Thanks for all the information and keep up the flaming. It's fun reading.

Berengaria

I have been using one in my house for over 90 days and we love it. I have also sold several and my customers are overjoyed with the results. Please send me a private message if you have any questions on the installation or use of your Hydrocare unit. You will be joining over a million worldwide satisfied users of the Hydropath technology.:D

Peter Griffin
10-25-2009, 11:59 AM
Now you have done it, you might have just driven the paranoid over the edge!!:rolleyes: They will be putting on their aluminum foil hats and forever be watching over their shoulders for the men in black suits they are convinced are following them.:eek:

You're a Democrat right ? :rolleyes:

Typical tactics, you are still ignoring the message and attacking the messenger. And still my offer remains unanswered. Imagine that

Peter Griffin
10-25-2009, 12:01 PM
Okay you guys. I wanted to find out if HydroCare was on the level or not but I would say that folks on this forum are about 50% for and 50% against. So what is an 80 year old lady to do? I decided to buy one tomorrow and try it myself. That's the only way I'm ever going to find out. They offer a money back guarantee so I can't lose too much and I really hope it works. If not, it won't be the first time I've fallen for a scam and maybe not the last. I'll keep a record of what happens, if anything, and get back here in several months with an unbiased, unsolicited report.

Thanks for all the information and keep up the flaming. It's fun reading.

Berengaria

I see that you joined Terry's forum today. could you give us a notion as to why you decided to make this topic your very first post?

terrydbhm
10-25-2009, 01:12 PM
I see that you joined Terry's forum today. could you give us a notion as to why you decided to make this topic your very first post?

Hmmm. .. . . . very curious question, are you adding Bernegaria to the conspiracy now? Maybe your aluminum foil hat has not arrived in the mail yet :confused:

terrydbhm
10-25-2009, 01:16 PM
And still my offer remains unanswered. Imagine that

I sent it to Peter Griffin addressed "North of the Mason Dixon Line" and it got returned marked "no such person exists" Imagine that:p

Peter Griffin
10-25-2009, 01:33 PM
You PM me with the correct information and I will be glad to supply the address for you to send the equipment to. OK :rolleyes:

And it's not tin foil hats we need, it's full Haz-Mat suits to avoid the BS. :D

Terry
10-25-2009, 03:59 PM
Does knowing the poster name make a bit of difference as to the validity of the post?


Absolutely!

Peter Griffin
10-25-2009, 04:14 PM
Well then I must come clean. My real name is Peter Griffin and I really am a plumbing inspector.

Allen Meyers
10-25-2009, 04:20 PM
Well then I must come clean. My real name is Peter Griffin and I really am a plumbing inspector.Hi Peter!!!!
My name is really Allen Meyers and I really post here from time to time.

Peter Griffin
10-25-2009, 04:27 PM
I think it was the cartoon that got this whole ball rolling and I just let it roll for awhile. Even if you post your name, no one believes it. There are thousands of Peter Griffins in the U.S. and even more in Ireland where my dear sainted father was from. Now if we can just get Cass, HJ, and Valveman to come clean along with 3/4 of the forum members. ;)

Terry
10-25-2009, 06:09 PM
Now if we can just get Cass, HJ, and Valveman to come clean along with 3/4 of the forum members. ;)

If you click on their names, you will notice that they have web sites with contact information.

I've encouraged all the plumbers to list their web sites.
If they don't have one, I can put up a page for them.

Peter Griffin
10-25-2009, 06:16 PM
But I don't have one ? and I doubt the city would want me to list theirs. still I can be PM'd though or emailed but I'm not sure I want my inbox filled with spam and crap. It's all so confusing. :confused:

Gary Slusser
10-25-2009, 10:54 PM
Now you're starting to sound like a democrat. If you get spam, delete it. Fear leads to confusion...

QUICK POLITICAL QUIZ

So, you think you know where you stand, politically? Just maybe not. The result from this short test may surprise you and give you some food for thought.

You'll be asked just 10 questions, and then it instantly tells you where you stand politically. It shows your position as a red dot on a "political map" so you'll see exactly where you score.

The most interesting thing about the Quiz is that it goes beyond the Democrat, Republican, and Independent.

The Quiz has gotten a lot of praise. The Washington Post said it has "gained respect as a valid measure of a person's political leanings." The Fraser Institute said it's "a fast, fun, and accurate
assessment of a person's overall political views." Suite University said it is the "most concise and accurate political quiz out there."

Click on the link below...

http://www.theadvocates.org/quizp/index.html

Peter Griffin
10-26-2009, 02:56 AM
I'm so conservative, I make Limbaugh look like a moderate. :eek:

Allen Meyers
10-26-2009, 05:43 AM
I am a far right Libertarian. Just call me Glenn.....:D

terrydbhm
10-26-2009, 05:47 AM
I can't live without my daily dose of Glenn Beck. I am a tea party member.

Allen Meyers
10-26-2009, 05:57 AM
I can't live without my daily dose of Glenn Beck. I am a tea party member.We had a BALL at the DC gathering!:cool:

Gary Slusser
10-26-2009, 10:20 AM
Well lookie there! Who woulda known.

I've always said I was a socialist liberal and fiscal conservative but now, now I find out I'm a just left of center Libertarian. And here I thought I was just a bit strange.

I have listened to Rush since day one in NY. He shocked me by saying things publicly that I had silently thought for years. And then Hannity too. I truly love Beck. He's like a slightly weird kid brother to me.

Most every evening I get a bit of cardio goin' on while upsetting the wife by hollering at fence sitter O'Reilly. That gets her some cardio goin' on too!

James Percarpio
10-26-2009, 12:07 PM
I am looking at purchasing one of these two products and was wondering if anyone could let me know if they have first hand knowledge with eitherr one or both of these. I did look at the BBB website and have found that both companies have A ratings so I'm going to give one of these products the test either way. Looking forward to hear from you.

Peter Griffin
10-26-2009, 12:09 PM
You guys are all light weights. I follow SAVAGE :D

terrydbhm
10-26-2009, 12:50 PM
I am looking at purchasing one of these two products and was wondering if anyone could let me know if they have first hand knowledge with eitherr one or both of these. I did look at the BBB website and have found that both companies have A ratings so I'm going to give one of these products the test either way. Looking forward to hear from you.

James, if you have been reading this complete forum you will find several like myself who are using Hydrocare in our homes. I posted a 3 week journal of my observances of Hydrocare and what differences I noticed after it was installed.

When I did my due diligence on Hydrocare I also took a look at Easy Water. EW uses a magnetic field that has to have 2 wires wrapped around the inlet water pipe to work. IMO it is not nearly as efficient as Hydrocare which is not magnetic and not dependant upon water flow or temperature like EW. Also I found that EW is several hundred dollars more in cost than Hydrocare. I found one water treatment dealer who was selling Hydrocare who had some experience with EW and he was not too positive about EW. If you want please send me a PM and I will answer any other questions you might have.

James Percarpio
10-26-2009, 02:19 PM
Terry, thank you for the reply. I've been trying to do my own research and talk to my collegues - I'm actually a high school chemistry teacher, although this is not an area of chemistry I have extensive knowledge in. The issue for me is weather or not the product works, and yes I have been looking over the discussion going on here and it seems that those who have tried Hydrocare do like the product, I also found that to be the case with those who have tried the Easywater product as well. I'm leaning toward Hydrocare because it is less expensive by about $300, but I was wondering if the Easywater product had any advantages over the Hydrocare product. Also, for those on this site who said they couldn't find your company...I didn't find it at first - I initially typed in Alabama Pure Water Company - but when I typed in Alabama Pure Water it came up, don't know why that made a difference. Also I'm am showing my ignorance, what do you mean by a PM? Thanks.

terrydbhm
10-26-2009, 03:28 PM
Terry, thank you for the reply. I've been trying to do my own research and talk to my collegues - I'm actually a high school chemistry teacher, although this is not an area of chemistry I have extensive knowledge in. The issue for me is weather or not the product works, and yes I have been looking over the discussion going on here and it seems that those who have tried Hydrocare do like the product, I also found that to be the case with those who have tried the Easywater product as well. I'm leaning toward Hydrocare because it is less expensive by about $300, but I was wondering if the Easywater product had any advantages over the Hydrocare product. Also, for those on this site who said they couldn't find your company...I didn't find it at first - I initially typed in Alabama Pure Water Company - but when I typed in Alabama Pure Water it came up, don't know why that made a difference. Also I'm am showing my ignorance, what do you mean by a PM? Thanks.

If you click on a poster's name you will see options like send a private message (PM) or go to posters home page or web site. My web site also will show on my profile as well. I do not know of any advantages EW has over Hydrocare other than a huge national TV budget. The issue is more the disadvantages and the much higher price VS Hydrocare. If you go to the HydrocareUSA web site you will also find a comparison of Hydrocare over PWT magnetic products like EW.

Peter Griffin
10-26-2009, 04:13 PM
If you are interested in a one tank, salt less conditioner take a look at this link

http://www.watts.com/mediaCenter/

Click on "one flow"

James Percarpio
10-26-2009, 06:44 PM
Thanks for the web site. I looked at similar technology on the Pelican website. I was reluctant to consider the Pelican priduct due to the price. I couldn't find a price on the Watt's product. How much is it? Thanks.

James Percarpio
10-31-2009, 10:30 AM
I decided to give the HC44 unit a try and I just installed it today (10/31/09). I'll keep you all posted on my results.

Peter Griffin
10-31-2009, 12:17 PM
I can already predict the results. ;)

RobPurc
11-06-2009, 03:36 AM
Hello from England. Blimey! I did a search on google re: HS38 and came across this, didn't realise it could be such an emotive subject! The reason I'm contributing was to let you know that as far as British gas go, they must genuinely think it works. I have a combination boiler and I am in a very hard water area my heating system as of late has been making very loud knocking noises. I am a British Gas customer and they have a scheme EnergyExtra 50 whereby you pay £2 a month on top of your normal bill, if you then have a problem with your boiler, electrics, plumbing or drains you pay a £99 flat fee which includes callout, parts, labour and taxes. This is unlimited per job. So if they have to visit 3 times and fit 3 parts to fix a problem you only make the one £99 payment even if the cost of the parts is £500 (they also give you for free a standby saver multi-socket plug and a remote electricity monitor which displays how much electricity your appliances are using as part of the scheme). As I said my heating has been knocking, so I called out my usual plumber who said it was probably scale and it might be worth a try putting descaler into the system which he did and as it only cost me 30 quid was worth a shot. However it didn't work, he said it could be the heat exchanger, which would cost at least £200 for the job. So I obviously invoked my British Gas deal which will cost me £99 tops. The Engineer called a couple of hours ago, he thinks it could be the pump or the heat exchanger. He is going to change the pump first, if this doesn't work he will change the heat exchanger. There is however a caveat, the heat exchanger gets changed the first time under the deal with no extra charge, if however in say two years time because of scale the heat exchanger needed changing again, if in the meantime I haven't taken any scale prevention action I would get charged the full price, if I do take some sort of scale prevention measure it would still come under the £99 flat fee scheme. The engineer did tell me about about the HS38 which British Gas will fit for £117, and he did recommend it (well he would wouldn't he?). To be fair this chap fixed my boiler before and for my £99 I had 3 visits including a system flush, a new pressure relief valve, new auto air vent and a new Control Board , which as my regular plumber quoted me £132 just for the Control Board parts only, wasn't bad! I definitely think British Gas believe the HS38 will reduce their costs. They are not a charity and they obviously think the risk of boiler damage from scale will significantly increase if the HS38 is not fitted, they don't force you to have it done they are just amending the terms of the Service Contract if you don't. Anecdotally the engineer told me he has one fitted and he barely has to clean his glass shower cubicle anymore. I am as tight as a gnat's arse, but when he turns up on tuesday to do the pump I think I may go ahead a get the HS38 even if the heat exchanger isn't the problem. If I do take the plunge I will report back the results at a later date.

Peter Griffin
11-06-2009, 06:23 AM
Super. Now lets debunk the whole thing. Your boiler is filled with water or glycol or a mix of each. This water fills the system and the pressure is maintained between 12 and 15 lbs/psi. As long as the system is tight (no leaks) the water in the system will have had all its scale causing minerals precipitated out within the first day or use. Therefore, you will never have a problem with scale build up on a residential boiler. Your knocking sound is something else all together, most probably the temperature is set too high and you are boiling the water. Call a good technician. I've been in the heating business for a very long time indeed and have never ever seen a residential boiler scale up unless there were very extenuating circumstances.

RobPurc
11-06-2009, 07:19 AM
Errrrrrrrrr.........Not quite. We moved into the house 8 years ago boiler was about 2 years old. Since then we have had extra rads fitted, rads moved, garage converted to dining room so boiler moved from garage to loft. System has been drained down numerous times, and, putting my hand up rather weakly has been filled back up with good old mains water, with no exotic mixes of glycol, liquid platinum, or kryptonite, can you tell I'm not a plumber but just Joe Public. I have bled radiators and topped up again quite merrily with mains water. The British Gas engineer suspects it's the pump, he hasn't discounted the heat exchanger, but like yourself he doubts it as he's never had to change my models heat exchanger for scale in the 15 years he's been doing the job. However if it was that, that is the British Gas policy with regard to anti scale measures. I'll let you know how I get on. Can I just say it to save you a job I'm a complete numbnut when it comes to DIY, so I know I haven't looked after the boiler as I should have done. I have slapped my wrists very hard.

jadnashua
11-06-2009, 09:27 AM
As was said, a typical residential boiler system is a closed system...once filled, doesn't need refilling. If you have leaks, fix them. If you fix them, you won't get air into the system, and scale won't be a problem. How many times to you fill your teakettle before you have to clean it out from scale? Lots of 'turnover' of contents. Your boiler system should have nowhere near that amount of turnover.

Peter Griffin
11-06-2009, 01:09 PM
Zactly. British Gas is using commercial steam process boilers that go through perhaps a hundred or more gallons of water every day. Most large process boilers use a chemical feed system to remove minerals and adjust PH. Their supposed results from the use of hydrocare are not scientific results by any means and are more likely the result of adjustments made to the incoming water, the chemical feed or the flow rate through the system. What Hydrocare claims and BG is reporting are against the laws of physics.

When will this nonsense ever end? I suspect never, as long as there are gullible folks around.

James Percarpio
11-09-2009, 01:10 PM
As I posted earlier I purchased the HC44 unit and installed it about a week ago. My analysis is focusing on a few key areas: shower head, dishwasher, water temperature, any hard water stains, and humidifier. Their claims as I understand them are that the unit is going to prevent future scale build up and over time break down existing scale.

Thus far the results I have obtained are inconclusive. Hard to make any definitive conclusions about the glassware in the dishwasher, shower head is still clogged up, have not used the humidifier yet, the one possible improvement is that when I took a shower this morning I did not have to set the dial as high as I normally do for water temperature, although we were away for a couple of days.

I'll report back again after week two.

Peter Griffin
11-09-2009, 04:15 PM
We are eagerly awaiting the results.

Wally Hays
11-10-2009, 09:24 AM
I'd be willing to bet that the results will be nothing short of amazing :D

James Percarpio
11-16-2009, 04:49 PM
Just wanted to provide an update on my results with HC44, before I do I thought I should provide some background info on my house and water hardness. My house is over 50 years old, although most of the plumbing has been updated. Also, about two years ago we put an addition on the house and moved the kitchen and one of the bathrooms into the new addition. Along with that we had to install a new hotwater heater about a 18 months ago. The hot water heater is 80 gallons and electric. The water in my town is pretty hard: 20.41 grains per gallon.

Regarding the results for week two, they are as follows:
- The most noticeable improvement has been on the bottom of the glasses in the dishwasher. We would normally get an opaque white film on the bottom (outside) of the clear glasses; that has improved and is not as bad.
- As far as the appearance of the glasses overall, there might be a slight improvement, but I not much better.
- With regard to the hotwater; it seems like we don't have to turn it up as high as we used to.
- My wife seemed to think that we are getting more suds than before.
- Shower head is still clogged up pretty bad, so I would still hold that as inconclusive.

I'll provide another update after week three.

Peter Griffin
11-17-2009, 02:45 AM
Ahh Yes, steady improvement, I am beginning to see the pattern, but week 4 there will be nothing short of a miracle ;)

James Percarpio
12-01-2009, 12:03 PM
Regarding the results for week two, they are as follows:
- The most noticeable improvement has been on the bottom of the glasses in the dishwasher. We would normally get an opaque white film on the bottom (outside) of the clear glasses; that has improved and is not as bad.
- As far as the appearance of the glasses overall, there might be a slight improvement, but not much better.
- With regard to the hotwater; it seems like we don't have to turn it up as high as we used to.
- My wife seemed to think that we are getting more suds than before.
- Shower head is still clogged up pretty bad, so I would still hold that as inconclusive.

Basically my results for week three and four are about the same as week two. The most noticeable improvement has been with the scale build up on the bottom of the glasses in the dishwasher. Other than that it is very difficult to quantify. My intent over the next few weeks (time permitting) will be to try and develop some quantifiable tests utilizing the equipment/chemicals I have in my lab. I will continue to update you as I obtain more quantifible data.

jnyost
12-03-2009, 07:51 AM
Regarding the results for week two, they are as follows:
- The most noticeable improvement has been on the bottom of the glasses in the dishwasher. We would normally get an opaque white film on the bottom (outside) of the clear glasses; that has improved and is not as bad.
- As far as the appearance of the glasses overall, there might be a slight improvement, but not much better.
- With regard to the hotwater; it seems like we don't have to turn it up as high as we used to.
- My wife seemed to think that we are getting more suds than before.
- Shower head is still clogged up pretty bad, so I would still hold that as inconclusive.

Basically my results for week three and four are about the same as week two. The most noticeable improvement has been with the scale build up on the bottom of the glasses in the dishwasher. Other than that it is very difficult to quantify. My intent over the next few weeks (time permitting) will be to try and develop some quantifiable tests utilizing the equipment/chemicals I have in my lab. I will continue to update you as I obtain more quantifible data.

Interesting. Thanks for the continued feedback. I have a respected local plumber who has mentioned a similar unit to me. I didn't give it much thought until I saw this thread here. It's not this brand, but a different one that I don't care to mention. I'll just get slammed as being a plant for them.

I came to the site mainly to do research on water heaters but will continue to read this entire thread. I've only read the first few pages and then skipped to the last few. It amazes me how many people slam a product they know nothing about. Kinda makes you wonder if you should believe anything they post.

James Percarpio
12-04-2009, 12:00 PM
Peter, I was hoping you could clear something up for me based on a comment you made in July, Post #70, you said:

“Oppositely-charged ions tend to form neutral ion-pairs anyway, but they are so loosely-bound that they are continually dissociating and re-reforming, and are not believed able to grow large enough to serve as precipitation nuclei.”

Now my focus is going to be on the Pelican Water "softener" technology (which as far as I can tell is the same as the Watts product), which claims the following:

How does the Pelican NaturSoft System soften my water?
The NaturSoft media acts as a catalyst reducing the degree of super saturation required to form solid calcium carbonate crystals. By forming these submicron crystals, NaturSoft removes the excess calcium from solution that would otherwise be the cause for an elevated scale potential. These newly formed calcium carbonate crystals then are introduced to the water as suspended particles where they perform the same role as the media itself, i.e. acting as seed crystals further buffering the effects of any changes in the scale potential of the water downstream by adsorbing excess mineral into their structure and themselves spawning the creation of additional micro crystals.

That following statement comes from the Pelican website. Are you claiming that the formation of "seed crystals" is not possible, and that the Pelican product would not be effective either.

Look forward to your response.

TCox
12-04-2009, 02:00 PM
I'm the new guy here and not any sort of expert. At my house the ground (earth) from my service panel is bonded to my incoming copper city water service. All dielectric connections (water heater, softener, etc.) in the house are bonded as well, and as our code requires. So, just a question and not intended to be facitious, haven't I already exposed my plumbing to electricity at 60 htz of frequency? Granted, there is no current, but there is none in the subject devices either. Does it require the higher frequency to develop "seed crystals"?

James Percarpio
12-05-2009, 08:27 AM
Yes Peter, I am aware that the product offered by Pelican does not use electricity, as I did research it. I just wanted to clarify wheather or not you were objecting to the claim that any type of product could produce calcium carbonate "seed crystals" by your previous statement. And even though I have noticed some improvements since I have installed HC44 I'm not endorsing the Hydrocare product. As I noted before it is difficult to quantify the results. :)

James Percarpio
12-06-2009, 03:10 PM
No, I'm not looking to sneek up on anybody. I've been doing my own research on the chemistry behind limescale recently, and recalled that you had made some statements about this (prior to purchasing the unit I looked at the dialogue/debate on this website as well as a few others). Just looking to get clarification on your views about that claim.

cdysthe
12-27-2009, 09:04 PM
Hi,

My wife is into everything green and alternative and insisted on installing a HC-38 in place of our dying salt based water softener. We installed a Titan on-demand water heater (great unit at an incredibly low price!) and a GE sediment filter at the same time. I did immediately notice that the oily feel of the water was gone. But what started happening was actually quite dramatic: Large amounts of scale was collecting inside all faucets and clogged them to the extent I had to clean them out at least once a week. The intake to the dishwasher got clogged also with this flaky scale deposits. The scale deposits were black initially, but now they are more yellow and looks like the flaky food we purchase for the kids gold fish. This scale release has now been going on for months but the amount has gradually become less. Since we have a sediment filter installed I know it comes from our pipes, and it's pretty obvious to me that the HydroCare unit is causing this enormous release of scale which has been gathered in the pipes over a couple of decades. This side effect I think people should be made aware of since the effectiveness of the unit can literally block water flow to appliances and faucets.

Other than that all I can say is that I personally like this water much better than the brine I used to shower in. My wife, who started this adventure, is not so sure she likes the "feel" of the water better than the salt softened water but says that shampoo and soaps are just as effective now as it was before. She gloats though over the extreme effects the unit has had not being the one who has to clean scale out of faucet aerators every week.

I did not believe in this thing before we bought it, and I do not want to believe in it now either, but I have no choice since decades of scale has already been removed and the water feels fine, on top of which we do not have problems with deposits on shower heads either.

If I had known about all the work involved after installing something like this I think I would have protested even more than I did because I didn't think it would work and thought the little plastic box was way overpriced.

The unit stays. It's probably good to get all that scale out and the water quality is very good. The one year return and refund window is about to close. I think we are going to let it.

I've read this whole heated thread. The thing is: I sympathies with the skeptics, but on this one I'm afraid they may be wrong. Sorry! :)

Peter Griffin
12-28-2009, 04:35 AM
Hallelujah ...... It's a miracle. ;)

cdysthe
12-28-2009, 05:59 AM
Hallelujah ...... It's a miracle. ;)


Well, that's almost how I feel about it. I wonder when this scale build-up in the faucets will stop completely though. Maybe the ting will dissolve the pipes also? :)

AAnderson
12-28-2009, 04:10 PM
I would suggest anyone who wants information on alternative water treatment look at chem1.com.
Few to none have any 3rd party validation and product endorsement is not a valid claim for performance.
If it works for you, fine. I do see a minimal amount of efficacy with wave generator technology but they are no means a substitute for ion exchange. Even cation exchange does not completely eliminate dissolved solids nor should it but damage do to hard water is a problem that affects us all in the trades to a lessor or greater degree at some point.
Continued positive dialogue would really be a better approach here, eh?
I don't want to see the baby thrown out with the bath water. somehow at some time, someone with a strong background in electro- chemistry (?) is going to back a breakthrough....

Peter Griffin
12-28-2009, 04:18 PM
Until someone finds a way around the laws of physics I am more than willing to throw the entire nursery out with the bath water :D

Akpsdvan
12-29-2009, 05:48 PM
This is a topic that has been going on for YEARS.

At last count there has yet to be a test from the WQA on the Hydrocare HC38 type items.

There have been many a company come out with a unit like it over the years, how many of them are still around?

Now could it work? I think that it has , but it has been on large pipes, and with 100's of GPM Always flowing, never stopping.

The challenge for the average home owner is that while they might use 200+ gallons in a day, it is only for a total of about 90 minutes total.

If you look at the full 24 hour clock, there is about a 2 hour window in the morning that water is used but of that 2 hours most likely it is only about 30 minutes total. Then you have for the next say 9 hours that 0 is used, then for the next 3-4 hours again maybe about 45 total time of use. Then another 9 hours of 0... For some things to work right there has to be a constant flow, not the start and stop that the average house undergoes each and every day.

Just some of my thoughts on this and what I have seen in 20 years.

Akpsdvan
12-29-2009, 05:49 PM
This is a topic that has been going on for YEARS.

At last count there has yet to be a test from the WQA on the Hydrocare HC38 type items.

There have been many a company come out with a unit like it over the years, how many of them are still around?

Now could it work? I think that it has , but it has been on large pipes, and with 100's of GPM Always flowing, never stopping.

The challenge for the average home owner is that while they might use 200+ gallons in a day, it is only for a total of about 90 minutes total.

If you look at the full 24 hour clock, there is about a 2 hour window in the morning that water is used but of that 2 hours most likely it is only about 30 minutes total. Then you have for the next say 9 hours that 0 is used, then for the next 3-4 hours again maybe about 45 total time of use. Then another 9 hours of 0... For some things to work right there has to be a constant flow, not the start and stop that the average house undergoes each and every day.

Just some of my thoughts on this and what I have seen in 20 years.

cdysthe
12-30-2009, 05:37 AM
I'm not an expert plumber or even DIY'er, so maybe I should not be posting here at all? But I like the ongoing discussion in this forum, so I'm doing it anyway. I work for a computer software company spending a lot of time on-line. Some of that time I've spent on looking for information around this mystery unit we have mounted on a pipe loop in the garage. As I've said before the reason I ended up with the HC-38 is that my wife likes to believe in such things. With "such things" I mean simple solutions to complex problems. She will not accept that if it seems too good to be true it most likely is. When I say that she says: You've said I am too good to be true". She's right in that case, she is! However, sometimes she is right and sometimes she just isn't. I can see that. But I keep my trap shut to not have to sleep on the couch. In this case with the HC-38 I am truly confused and baffled.

In western medicine there are several examples of widely use medications where science only knows how they work, not why they work. No laws of biology, chemistry or physics can explain the effect. One prominent example is beta blockers. We know the result of taking them, what happens and what they do. One thing they do is lowering the heart rate and blood pressure. But we do not know exactly why it happens. Isn't it possible that this water treatment debate has an element of the same thing? We can see that something has a certain effect on water and what's in water, but we do not know why? We try to come up with explanations but they are lacking since there's a black hole in our knowledge. I know that the chemistry and physics around water is pretty well known and explored while the human body in many ways still is a mystery to us. Still, wouldn't it be possible that there are a few things we didn't know, that we haven't even thought of yet, and that one of those things will at some point explain why units like the HydroCare one works?

To go back to the beta blocker analogy. I have taken those at one point. And yes, they had the wanted effect, but they also had a lot of side effect, not all wanted. In my case with the HC-38 I have the problem that my faucets gets clogged up with scale. When I turn the unit off it stops after just a few hours, and after a day the water feels icky when I wash my hair with it in the shower. I was allowed to turn it off for a week. My wife said: "If that's going to make you feel better about it, do it!". Is all this scale in the water a wanted effect, or a side effect? If it means my pipes are being "cleaned" it must be good. If it means the unit creates this stuff from what's dissolved in the water and stuck in the pipes it's not good. I don't know yet. Actually I won't know until the pipes are free of scale, if that ever happens.

I am still a skeptic even if I see that it does something which is spewing out old deposits from the pipes, and the water feels good. Personally my main question is: If this unit doesn't use magnetism but rather radio waves, why does it have to be mounted on the pipe itself? No conductive material touches the pipe as far as I can see, and I was told that I could mount it on PVC pipe also. I was also told that "it doesn't matter where on the pipe you mount it since it will cover the pipes in the whole house anyway". But I do not see the reason why it needs to be on the pipes at all if we are talking radio waves. Couldn't it just sit somewhere in the house close to a water pipe and send out its waves?

Peter Griffin
12-30-2009, 06:05 AM
Take a look here. This should explain things pretty well

http://www.chem1.com/CQ/magscams.html

cdysthe
12-30-2009, 06:32 AM
Take a look here. This should explain things pretty well

http://www.chem1.com/CQ/magscams.html

Thanks. I've read that site several times. What makes it more credible than others? That they say that they represent science and claiming the the other side is pseudo? It can't be that simple. As I said, I do not know what to believe, but I am not removing something that works regardless of me believing it or not. That would in my opinion be stupid of me. So let me put it this way: I will let it do it's thing while I try to find out how it does it.

Gary Slusser
12-30-2009, 08:47 AM
IMO I wouldn't care how it works. So far no one can prove how physical water treatment (PWT) works. I didn't know how planes flew until I became a pilot and they taught me the 'theory of flight', I just knew they flew because I could see planes flying. I've seen some PWT "work" although most doesn't.

I drove all kinds of motorized vehicles long before I knew how internal combustion engines work. Only the nay sayers go on about how PWT doesn't work, no thrid party certification etc. etc.. If it works for your water and the improvement is satisfactory, enjoy.

Peter Griffin
12-30-2009, 09:05 AM
they use to think the world was flat also.

No, there is no third party confirmation whatsoever, however, there are numerous scientists that will attest to the fact that the claims made by these companies violate the laws of physics. Now I know that new things are being discovered all the time but as far as I know, nobody has come up with a way around the laws of physics. It is well documented that in order for any of these things to work, the power consumption necessary would be enormous and way beyond the 200 amps delivered to most homes.

BTW, how come you are not selling any of those products?

cdysthe
12-30-2009, 09:37 AM
they use to think the world was flat also.

No, there is no third party confirmation whatsoever, however, there are numerous scientists that will attest to the fact that the claims made by these companies violate the laws of physics. Now I know that new things are being discovered all the time but as far as I know, nobody has come up with a way around the laws of physics. It is well documented that in order for any of these things to work, the power consumption necessary would be enormous and way beyond the 200 amps delivered to most homes.

BTW, how come you are not selling any of those products?

The HC-38, which presumably is not a magnetic device, is the only such device I am discussing here since it's the only one I have ever owned. It's not the HydroCare people who convinced me to get one, and i's because it has a one year return, not questions asked, warrantly attached to the purchase I accepted getting one. The year is almost up, but I can't see why I should send it back. It simply works for me, right here on my water supply.

The first people who claimed the earth was round went to jail or worse. Also, quantum physics have stirred up and questioned many of the older laws of physics the last fifty years or so. I am not a scientist, and I do not claim I know how this thing works. I'm not sure anyone does. But even if the HydroCare people told me "it works by having divine energy channeled from heaven down into your water" I would say "sure, whatever" and continue to enjoy it's beneficial effects on my water.

Why I am not selling it? Why would I? I have a job. In fact, most of the things I own I do not sell :) Also, personally I would have a problem selling something I do not know how works. But that's me. I once purchased this sun powered ionizer floating thingy for my pool. That one did nothing but float on top of a newly created pool of green algae. I sent it back. The HC-38 works for me though, so what am a poor sucker to do? :)

Peter Griffin
12-30-2009, 11:09 AM
I don't know how to put this delicately and I may be off base here, but I have seen this same thing done on many many other diy forums. You only joined a couple days ago and have only posted on this thread. Like all the others that support this product, you can't really say if it works or not but you sort of think it does and yadda yadda the upshot being it is a good product. Problem is that the guys that sell these things need to advertise and they advertise by upping the google hit list, so they perpetuate these threads as long as possible too that end. Now maybe you are on the up and up, I really don't know and the last thing I want to do is re-post the last 11 pages, so for anyone wishing to continue with this mess I suggest reading through it all from page one because I doubt anything new and earth shattering is going to emerge.

cdysthe
12-30-2009, 12:06 PM
I don't know how to put this delicately and I may be off base here, but I have seen this same thing done on many many other diy forums. You only joined a couple days ago and have only posted on this thread. Like all the others that support this product, you can't really say if it works or not but you sort of think it does and yadda yadda the upshot being it is a good product. Problem is that the guys that sell these things need to advertise and they advertise by upping the google hit list, so they perpetuate these threads as long as possible too that end. Now maybe you are on the up and up, I really don't know and the last thing I want to do is re-post the last 11 pages, so for anyone wishing to continue with this mess I suggest reading through it all from page one because I doubt anything new and earth shattering is going to emerge.

Ok, so I now understand what you are getting at. It may well be true that those people do that, but I came across this forum while I was searching for information on the device. I read the whole thread and wanted to put my 2c in. I can PM you my real information so you can check me out. I am not associated with anyone who sell this product at all. I purchased it from a company online, but I am not going to put the name here in case that will be interpreted as advertising! :)

Gary Slusser
12-30-2009, 03:54 PM
Peter, it looks as if you like to beat dead horses or you'd give up on beating this one and then complaining about it beating it. :D

Peter Griffin
12-30-2009, 03:58 PM
If the horse was truly dead then I would gladly quit beating it, but it keeps rising from the dead. :D

James Percarpio
01-04-2010, 08:39 AM
Basically my results for week three and four are about the same as week two. The most noticeable improvement has been with the scale build up on the bottom of the glasses in the dishwasher. Other than that it is very difficult to quantify. My intent over the next few weeks (time permitting) will be to try and develop some quantifiable tests utilizing the equipment/chemicals I have in my lab. I will continue to update you as I obtain more quantifible data.

That was my conlusion after about 4 weeks using the unit. What I decided to do since then in order to provide myself with a more objective point of reference was the following:

- On my glassware, I cleaned up the scale on the bottom of some of the glasses; on the others I etched a straight line on the bottom of the glass through the center of the existing scale build up.
- Since I did not see significant improvement on the scale build up on my shower head (which was over two years worth) I decided to clean the scale off and see if new scale would form.

After about 4 weeks the results are as follows:
- On the bottom of the glasses coming out of the dishwasher there is occasional "spotting" that does wipe off
- Thus far the shower head is clean

I'll continue to provide more updates.

James Percarpio
01-07-2010, 08:24 AM
Until someone finds a way around the laws of physics I am more than willing to throw the entire nursery out with the bath water :D

Hello Peter. This is a general question based on this comment as well as the website you reference. I'm somewhat confused. If I understand you correctly your claim (stance) is that electronic "water softening" devices don't work, period. But the author of that site makes the following comment (emphasis added):

So, does MWT work? No clear answer!
For some users, MWT seems to be effective in controlling scale deposition; there are too many favorable anecdotal reports to dismiss it entirely. Looking at the carefully done studies on actual installations, the results are mixed. This suggests that the conditions under which MWT is effective are dependent on factors that are not well understood. Scientific studies on model systems suggest that magnetic fields can have subtle effects on water[⇒] and can affect carbonate precipitation[⇒], even though H2O molecules are not paramagnetic. Some studies have shown that the presence of certain substances in the water can affect scale precipitation; these include iron ions, phosphates, silica[⇒], and oxygen.
Still, there is no scientific consensus about the mechanism of how MWT might work. This is not surprising; the entire process by which ions form precipitation nuclei is poorly understood. "Bare" ions do not exist in solution, but are protected by a hydration shell of loosely-attached water molecules and surrounded by an electric double layer of counter-ions. They do not simply come together to form precipitates. My best guess, based on the most recent literature, is that applied magnetic and electric fields might distort the double-layer in such a way as to promote nuclei formation, particularly if certain other ions or dissolved subtances are present.

In other words the author is not dismissing it entirely. Basically if I understand him correctly he is saying that although there is some evidence that MWT is effective...buyer beware.

Peter Griffin
01-07-2010, 11:23 AM
If it's working for you, and you believe it was a good purchase than put a smile on your face and be happy. I however, will stick with ion exchange. A method that is scientifically proven to work ;)

wkb2texans
01-07-2010, 04:30 PM
I've read through nearly this entire thread ... since 2007 ... and haven't yet seen where anyone of you "experts" have tried these devices ... or even spoke with anyone who had (other than others who posted here.) Did I miss those postings? If so, I apologize. If not, read on.

I have no clue if these devices work or not ... I do know they're being advertised/sold widely (particulalry Easywater ... Beck and Hannity are wearing me out on that issue) ... and I do know there's much anectodal evidence that they do work. Of course, what we're missing is scientific proof. And I don't know if there is any. But I do know that there's also no scientific proof that these devices (Easywater and the Hydro, whatever it is) don't work.

So, I'd suggest that one of you experts in here buy one of these (they both have moneyback guarantees and solid BBB ratings, so you can give them back if you wish) ... and give them a personal test. I would think that after 2+ years of yapping about whether or not they work ... that someone might really want to see if they do or don't. Of course, that'd mean there'd be the possibility of some tails going between some of those expert legs, now wouldn't it?

Just my 2 cents ... as a first-time poster ... with no axe to grind/no dog in the fight.

cdysthe
01-07-2010, 05:07 PM
I've read through nearly this entire thread ... since 2007 ... and haven't yet seen where anyone of you "experts" have tried these devices ... or even spoke with anyone who had (other than others who posted here.) Did I miss those postings? If so, I apologize. If not, read on.

I have no clue if these devices work or not ... I do know they're being advertised/sold widely (particulalry Easywater ... Beck and Hannity are wearing me out on that issue) ... and I do know there's much anectodal evidence that they do work. Of course, what we're missing is scientific proof. And I don't know if there is any. But I do know that there's also no scientific proof that these devices (Easywater and the Hydro, whatever it is) don't work.

So, I'd suggest that one of you experts in here buy one of these (they both have moneyback guarantees and solid BBB ratings, so you can give them back if you wish) ... and give them a personal test. I would think that after 2+ years of yapping about whether or not they work ... that someone might really want to see if they do or don't. Of course, that'd mean there'd be the possibility of some tails going between some of those expert legs, now wouldn't it?

Just my 2 cents ... as a first-time poster ... with no axe to grind/no dog in the fight.

Excellent suggestion! Especially since it's no cost involved for the expert choosing to do it other than being out $2-500 for a few months.

Peter Griffin
01-07-2010, 05:44 PM
Well, actually about 5 years back I did just that with another of the miracle products who's name shall remain anonymous due to legal reasons. Returning it was difficult at best and near impossible though through threats of a lawsuit I did eventually get them to give me my money back.

Every single test run on the unit came back negative. Water quality tests done during the 8 months the unit was in service showed absolutely no measurable change in water conditions. Hardness at 5ppm stayed at 5ppm, Iron, manganese, and ph were also unchanged. The problem is that those that tout the product all say that you can not use standard tests because the unit does not change the water chemistry along with a bunch of other mumbo jumbo.. At any rate I, me myself, noticed no difference in water quality, feel, scaling, hardness, taste or anything else. I would gladly put the hydrocare to the test also but two things stop me. One is that no matter what I get for results, unless they are positive, someone who has a vested interest in the product is going to dispute the results. And two, form past experience, getting a refund is a huge pain in the ........

James Percarpio
01-08-2010, 12:38 PM
If it's working for you, and you believe it was a good purchase than put a smile on your face and be happy. I however, will stick with ion exchange. A method that is scientifically proven to work ;)

Actually for me the jury is still out on this product. My initial impression is that there does seem to be some impact, but that being said I have not seen the kind of results that others have mentioned. So I will investigate further and try to devise more quantifiable observations. I'm a chemistry teacher so the learning aspect of this has been fun for me and I personally have appreciated your skepticism because it has helped me to learn more. What have I learned so far. Well, I have two forms of calcium carbonate in my lab; calcium carbonate powder and calcium carbonate marble chips. With some force the chips can be crushed into a fine powder with a mortar and pestle. Now both forms are pure white in color. In most cases the scale I observe from my house water supply is not pure white in color. Why is that significant? Well the author of the website you mention brings up that point, which means that there are others variables that might be at work. A true scientific theory must consider all variables. I have tried to do a fair amount of research on this issue and since I do have a most of the chemicals and equipment available to me I'm first looking to verify what I have read and then take it from there. As I said, for me this is fun. :D

James Percarpio
01-11-2010, 05:19 PM
I've read through nearly this entire thread ... since 2007 ... and haven't yet seen where anyone of you "experts" have tried these devices ... or even spoke with anyone who had (other than others who posted here.) Did I miss those postings? If so, I apologize. If not, read on.

I have no clue if these devices work or not ... I do know they're being advertised/sold widely (particulalry Easywater ... Beck and Hannity are wearing me out on that issue) ... and I do know there's much anectodal evidence that they do work. Of course, what we're missing is scientific proof. And I don't know if there is any. But I do know that there's also no scientific proof that these devices (Easywater and the Hydro, whatever it is) don't work.

So, I'd suggest that one of you experts in here buy one of these (they both have moneyback guarantees and solid BBB ratings, so you can give them back if you wish) ... and give them a personal test. I would think that after 2+ years of yapping about whether or not they work ... that someone might really want to see if they do or don't. Of course, that'd mean there'd be the possibility of some tails going between some of those expert legs, now wouldn't it?

Just my 2 cents ... as a first-time poster ... with no axe to grind/no dog in the fight.


That is exactly what I am in the process of doing. The trick is developing objective/quantifiable tests that provide results in a short amount of time. Since scale does not build up overnight it is difficult to obtain definitive, objective and quantifiable results right away. This is one of the main points Peter brings up and he rightly points out that statements like "the water feels better" are subjective (to be fair that is not the only claims that have been made). Being a chemistry teacher I have certain chemicals, equipment and knowledge at my disposal which I'll try to make useful in my investigation.

Scott D. Plumber
02-11-2010, 04:31 PM
OK, I've been living with a HC38 in my home now for about 6 months. Here's my report:

This is not a Miracle Machine! However! Here is what it did, and does not do for me. My iron staining in toilets, no help. My problem there is so minor that I don’t really care. My Lime scale problem, no longer a problem! Notice I did not say GONE! I said no longer a problem! There is a big difference. I still get spots. Now they wipe right off. Most of the scale buildup in my home has gone away. There is a little still around the edge of my kitchen faucets but not nearly as bad as before and no new buildup since. My shower chrome and other chrome has shined up to just minor spots that were there from the beginning. It looks like what I was used to with city water and I find it acceptable.

I have successfully procrastinated on fixing the leak that had limed itself shut on the webstone pipe kit on my Rinnai (but reappeared in about a month after the hyrocare went in) I have two – almost 3 years old and they were in a hotel for year prior. They have never been flushed and never popped an LC code. (Long story on the Webstone kit but…use JOMAR! ARGH!)

My truck still spots when I wash it but they too wipe right off. No need to wax or re-wash if the phone rings. In fact If I leave the spots on, first rain washed them all off. Again – Acceptable to me.

Overall, I am quite pleased with the system. It works as I expected it to work. If you expect “soft water” you’ll be disappointed. If like me, you don’t like soft water and just want the “Cement” to stop getting all over everything, I think you’ll be pleased. I would buy it again in a minute. I'll check back in to update later in the summer.

Gary is a very highly respected water treatment guy who’s opinion I value greatly. If you want treated water, soft water, have iron, acid, sulfur, or sediment trouble, this device is not for that. See him. This device does not change anything about the chemical makeup of your water. Period. That’s not what it is supposed to do.
Mr. Love. I am very much enjoying your site! It is a great site. :-) your tankless forum is a much needed thing on the web and helps focus information.

JPHarley
03-22-2010, 10:59 AM
OK. I just ordered the the Hydro 44 I think it's called. Here is part of the email I received.

I just wanted to thank you for your HydroCare purchase. I am sure you will
enjoy the unit for many years to come!

Your unit will arrive Fed Ex ground within the week.

I have no expertice in water softening or anything related. I will post on this site what I think about the product and if it works for me or not. I do know that I have done some research and a few states have already banned salt based water softners because of all the waste they produce and is sent into the sewer system. So I didn't want to buy something that may be banned in a few years, let alone the increase in my water bill for the hundreds of gallons of water needed to "clean" the water softner every few months. Anyway I will let you know when I receive it....how easy it is to install...and what my "unprofessional" opinion of the product is. Stay Tuned.
JP

Peter Griffin
03-22-2010, 12:54 PM
They will never ban a product that does not work

Gary Slusser
03-22-2010, 03:53 PM
I have no expertice in water softening or anything related. I will post on this site what I think about the product and if it works for me or not. I do know that I have done some research and a few states have already banned salt based water softners because of all the waste they produce and is sent into the sewer system. So I didn't want to buy something that may be banned in a few years, let alone the increase in my water bill for the hundreds of gallons of water needed to "clean" the water softner every few months. Anyway I will let you know when I receive it....how easy it is to install...and what my "unprofessional" opinion of the product is. Stay Tuned.
JP
I do not know of any state that has banned water softeners.

California included. Recently there was a law signed in Calf. that will allow banning of softener discharge into public sewers and some 'districts' may ban softeners to stop the discharge as one has in the past by promising not to raise taxes to renew their present sewer treatment plant, but then attempted to anyway but people rebelled and that was dropped after a few thousand had residents voluntarily had given up their softeners.

So what States are you talking about banning softeners?

Peter Griffin
03-22-2010, 04:03 PM
I suspect that the purpose of the post was to bring the thread back to the first few Google hits.

Gary Slusser
03-23-2010, 02:17 PM
Me, I believe it's as he says and he just bought one because he doesn't like the idea of a water softener.

NotMyRealName
03-26-2010, 10:43 PM
So what is the verdict?

Do they work or not?
How much do they cost?

I have a Culligan system that was here when we bought the house. It is old and needs new brine (approx $1500). We don't bother to put salt in it anymore since it doesn't work right and I am not sure if it regenerates anymore. If I try to turn it off we have no water supply to the house. If these really work it would be better than filling with salt or potassium all the time.

If I missed the verdict please forgive me, I skimmed a few pages but then figured it was 16 pages of bickering. Just like it is on every other forum I found.

Akpsdvan
03-26-2010, 11:03 PM
I would say that they do not work, have now seen where they work or pass the WQA testing...

New Brine tank? take the guts out of the one you have and buy a different brine tank on some web site for under 100.00

Bob999
03-27-2010, 06:18 AM
First, the units are not softeners. They don't advertise that they soften the water and they don't. What they advertise is that they reduce scaling in pipes and difficult to remove hardness deposits on fixtures and surfaces.

If you want soft water--that is water without calcium and magnesium in the water and your water supply has these elements in it -- then you need a conventional softener. If your only concern is scaling and deposits then the unit might help. The lack of independent testing to suport the claims would prevent me from buying one.

As to cost you will need to find that for yourself--I think it depends on the specific model and the seller.

bogo4444
03-27-2010, 11:14 PM
Hi !! Scott d plumber my name is bo the plumer and this is my first time on this web site and I have so many things I would like to talk about .! First a little about me I don't consider myself a master plumber I have a while to go, I just finished with a new Marriott hotel seven stories and 163 rooms with 3 broilers on the roof with return line and 140 degree hot water for kitchen with mixing values for the rest of the hotel ,on the first floor we installed two 300 collegen water softner with 3 inch cooper lines and a buster pump. The hotel has been open for about a month now and the softner is still on bypass because we where getting discoloration out of the softners . Collegen tried to rebed the softners and it did not work this is the first time I have ever seen softners or even known how they work! The head guy from Collegen said he will not rebed the tanks again until he gets the test results back from the water samples he got from the tanks. It turns out that we got contaminated bedding and they said they are waiting for the new bedding to be deliverd before we can clean out the tanks one more time.The top service guy that was out there tought me alot about how the system works ,and i got a good crash corse on hard water last week I was at the plumbing supply house and I saw this hydrocare box on the counter and asked them if it works and he said I dont know,then he said that one of his co workers bought one for his house so then I asked him did he say it works he said yes but he gets discoleration out of his fixtures and he has to clean the airators (screens) on the faucets. Then I asked him how much was it ?. I almost fell off my stool when he told me the price ! So then I asked him what would be my companys price because they give him a big discount because he buys so much material,but the price stayed the same witch never happens ,so that told me that there is something differnt about this company or product I was not going to spend that kind of money until I knew more so I just left with the flyer and then it hit me why dont I call the collegen pro and he said im not going to say it does or doesnt work but I should ask them for the documataion and flow rate, in other words not much help I am still not sure what to think about this thing, when I called the company and asked for that stuff they said it has no flow rate because it sends a signal and its used by schools ,hospitals and so on. I just want it to keep from destroying all of the fixtures in the houses and clean out the water heater.Do you think it is worth trying or am I a sucker and I am making some guy in Newyork rich!.

Akpsdvan
03-27-2010, 11:33 PM
If you have gone over this thread, there are those that say that they do and there are those that say that they do not work.
With that said,, there has yet to be a WQA testing of this type of equipment... I have talked to people around here and gotten mixed reviews of the mag or elec systems but there is more Iron in the water than any thing else .. that could be why many do not work..

Was the dis colored water that you are talking about because of a softener or this hydrocare type system?

bogo4444
03-28-2010, 07:20 AM
If you have gone over this thread, there are those that say that they do and there are those that say that they do not work.
With that said,, there has yet to be a WQA testing of this type of equipment... I have talked to people around here and gotten mixed reviews of the mag or elec systems but there is more Iron in the water than any thing else .. that could be why many do not work..

Was the dis colored water that you are talking about because of a softener or this hydrocare type system?

I was told about the color from the hydrocare and i saw for my self the color from the softner

JRL2010
06-21-2010, 11:55 AM
We have had one now for 10 months. The first few months were a nuisance, with lots of white stuff and some red stuff coming out of our taps. We were told by Hydro FLow in Barrie Ontario to use Lemishine with our dishwasher and that the red would stop within a few months. We have had very little problem since then. There might be specs of white, but they come off when you dry the tops of the dishes. There are no spots on the vertical surfaces. We had some of our piping changed this past winter and they were clear. We had some changed a couple of years ago and there had been some buildup of stuff on the inside.

We went from the water softener because I could no longer lift the bags down to where our softener was and it was becoming very expensive (1 bag every week).

Our water tasted like chalk before, we can now brush our teeth with it without a problem.

I like that our bathroom fittings no longer develop permanent water spots on them, and any spots can be removed with regular cleaning. There was also a lessoning of the water marks (and CLR did not remove them prior to using the Hydroflow!)

We are on well water, and with years that there is little water, I hated listening to what little water we had going to the septic.

So does it work?- I like it better than the water softener. Our water is not super soft, it no longer tastes like chalk, I no longer carry those ridiculously heavy bags, I have fewer water spots on my bathroom fixtures and my water feels the same 7 days a week. By the way, I have now paid for my Hydroflow by not having bought the salt for 10 months.

My answer is yes.

Wally Hays
06-26-2010, 04:26 PM
well that's just super. Case closed

enb54
07-15-2010, 08:40 PM
After having spent a few hours reading this whole thread, I would like to offer the following to the believers and the non-believers…
There is a very easy way to determine if this technology actually works, and that is to conduct a small home experiment. First, find a water pipe (somewhere) which is heavily scaled and scrape out as much of the scale as possible (at least one teaspoon full), and dump this scale into an ordinary drinking water glass (hopefully not including any magnetic particles). Fill the glass about 3/4 full with ordinary tap water and stir the contents thoroughly, then allow the particles to sink to the bottom of the glass. Procure and place beside the drinking glass any magnetic, electromagnetic, electronic, psychic or proprietary device of your choice which purports to affect limescale buildup in any way. When you are satisfied that your device is properly positioned, stir your mixture again and note the effect of having the “device” in the presence of your scale mixture. If the scale mixture does not sink to the bottom of the glass and behave exactly as if the device was not present, rush out and buy as many as you can, because you are about to get very wealthy very quickly. While you are at it, better call a few of those science television shows like “Discover” because you are about to become famous…

Questions? Check out your experimental, repeatable results from above and act accordingly…

Wally Hays
07-16-2010, 03:41 AM
enb, you are missing the point. First off you have to have blind faith. Second off you have to suspend the laws of physics and third off you have to not care if the results can be proved or not. Your test would only make sense to logically thinking people.

enb54
07-16-2010, 09:26 AM
enb, you are missing the point. First off you have to have blind faith. Second off you have to suspend the laws of physics and third off you have to not care if the results can be proved or not. Your test would only make sense to logically thinking people.

Well, I really wanted to get rich quick with this, but I wanted it to work so I could become famous too! I have found that vinegar works well, but it is slow...

curtolaf
07-20-2010, 03:39 PM
Here is a link to what I believe is a controlled experiment to see if this thing works:

http://wavehomesolutions.com/content/hydrocare/test-results.cfm

I hate soft water also. Would never consider owning one for the reasons stated above. I do have the lime scale problem though. After reading the pros and cons posted on this blog I decided to give this thing a try. Before I buy, I am going to check on the "1 year satisfaction guaranteed or return it at no cost" warranty to make sure it is legitimate. If it is, I'm willing to give it a try.

The way I look at it, there's nothing to loose except my lime scale problem, I hope!

Wally Hays
07-20-2010, 05:54 PM
Nice try. The link is not to a testing agency but rather a data collection agency. A data collection agency that receives its primary revenues from those companies using their services. By all means try it for a year and then tell us what a great job it did though you can not actually prove any of the results.

here's a better link - read carefully


http://www.onspex.com/about/index.htm

enb54
07-21-2010, 05:30 PM
Well, I have a long history of working with electrical fields of all kinds, and of course anyone who has experience with electrical fields knows that there is also a magnetic component, so I found this little gem http://www.nmsr.org/magnetic.htm to instill some sense into those who doubt the efficacy of the "simple home experiment." My drinking buddies think that this is just hilarious, but sad to see so many people not believing their grade school science...

Wally Hays
07-21-2010, 07:04 PM
Nice link thanks. Here is another you might find interesting

http://www.chem1.com/CQ/magscams.html

enb54
08-06-2010, 04:27 PM
Nice link thanks. Here is another you might find interesting

http://www.chem1.com/CQ/magscams.html

Hi Wally... I found this link to a U.S. Army Corps of Engineers report, check out page 34... http://www.cecer.army.mil/techreports/Hock_MagneticDescalers/Hock_MagneticDescalers.pdf

Wally Hays
08-07-2010, 06:38 AM
Oh that one is a beauty. Thanks for the link. Most thorough test yet with predictable results.

CADIYER
08-16-2010, 02:02 PM
Ok I am new to this board too - and not a plant from Hydrocare - In fact I am still skeptical myself.
I found this just like many others - by googling Hyrdrocare reviews - because I like to research something before I buy it.
I have NOT purchased one and I am still researching but this site appears to NOT be of much use because:

After reading many many pages of this thread I conclude the following:

1 - the oldtimers on this site discount and attack anyone else that is new like myself that found this site the same way I did - especially if they want to add a positive review of the Hydrocare
2 - the oldtimers continue to rip on this product based on no personal data - not one has actually spent the $600 to test it and make an educated opinion or conclusion

This thread appears to be run by a bunch of water softener salesmen that refuse to test the product and refuse to give credibility to anyone but themselves....

I did read the reviews from some newbies that tested it and I will search online for more "ACTUAL" tests - as this appears to be a dead end site of biased "opinions"

If you have no data to support your "opinion" - then don't post anything....

Akpsdvan
08-16-2010, 02:20 PM
Back on the near dead horse again we go.

I have know people in the area that have used and like along with those that do not like or say that it works and those that say it does not work.

From my reading over the years it looks to work on the large scale and with flow rates that are in the 100's of gallons per minute 24/7... the home does not do this.

The other is that the Water Quality Association has yet to run any test on said items because the many makers will not do what is needed for them to run the tests.. read up on that.

Will it work? I truly do not know, but I do know that people come to me for an answer and a fix to what is going on with their water, not a maybe..
So till I see 100% prof that it does what it says it will do for both hardness and the Iron that I deal with , I will stay with what has worked for my 20 years and those before me.

jadnashua
08-16-2010, 03:34 PM
One of the earlier posts referenced a US Army COE test...the ones they tested didn't do much of anything. Until someone can show me the science as to how and why it works, I discount any claims.

Wally Hays
08-16-2010, 05:08 PM
Old timers? Jeeez, I may be middle aged but and old timer. Excuse me I have a bingo game to go to.

Look, this thread is 17 going on 18 pages long. There's some good information here and some biased crap also. I believe that If you go through it more thoroughly you will find plenty of supporting evidence and even a few guys ( like me ) that have spent the money and tested the thing ( or similar ones ) Hit the posted links and make the decision for yourself. Personally, if you can read through them and still want to spend the 600 bucks than by all means go right ahead. It's your money.