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mrmichaeljmoore
02-07-2009, 05:33 PM
I just got a new Reebok treadmill.
The manual says that I should not use an extension cord.

But the only location that I can put the treadmill is out of reach of the outlet.

Can I use some sort of heavy duty extension cord? Anyone have any recommendations?
I have an appliance extension cord (12 gauge, 9 ft long)....will that work?

I realize I can have an electrician come in a put in another outlet....but I would rather not do that.

Thanks for the help.
mike

leejosepho
02-07-2009, 05:44 PM
Using a sufficiently-heavy extension cord is not going to cause any damage to the treadmill, but it still could be a safety issue in more ways than one ... with pets, children, people stepping on and off or getting to and from ...

I will use a cord when I need one, but I also try to never need one.

jadnashua
02-07-2009, 05:59 PM
If the cord has large enough conductors, you should be okay. Your situation is one reason why current building codes require so many outlets in a house...there would be an outlet close enough where you didn't need and extension cord!

The problem comes where some people would put in an extension cord designed for a lamp...maybe something like 18g wire, and it could overheat and cause a fire...the voltage drop on a high current device would also potentially overheat things like the motor windings.

Scuba_Dave
02-07-2009, 06:42 PM
I wouldn't cut the cord if it's new, that would probably void the warranty. I use heavy duty short extension cords when needed
One on a double hot plate, another on a heater
Never permanent
Don't run it under a rug

Cookie
02-07-2009, 07:06 PM
I would add a new outlet. Extension cords just aren't safe for things like that at all. You might be running for your life.

drick
02-07-2009, 07:35 PM
Short heavy duty extension cord - no problem. But what about your house wiring? If your treadmill is rated at 1500 watts or more you should go with a new dedicated circuit just for the treadmill.
-rick

codeone
02-08-2009, 03:13 AM
NO wonder people die early. They want to refuse to use mfg instructions.
Cars give out early. Why do people want to go aganist mfg. instructions for safety all the time? Do they just not care?
Things break. Warranty's voided! Why ask for others opinions when you already have the info you need from the mfg? Just to get away with something for convience. Dont touch that hot burner. Oh I didnt know I would get burned.

Yes you may never have a problem with doing what you are wanting. But you never know. Best to follow Mfg. guidelines!

Thatguy
02-08-2009, 07:29 AM
You can be 100% sure that a new outlet costs $***.
Maybe you are 5% sure that your voided warranty will be discovered over the life of the warranty. How much does 5% of a warranty on a new treadmill cost?

Decision Theory 101:D

mrmichaeljmoore
02-08-2009, 07:58 AM
Thanks for all the responses....

I am going to use a 12 gauge, 9 ft cord. That is the heaviest gauge (and shortest) I could find at the local stores.

I am going to plug it in to the washing machine outlet, so it will be on a dedicated 20amp breaker by itself. Obviously, I will use the treadmill when the washer is NOT in use. Plus, I will unplug the washer when using the treadmill.

When the treadmill is not in use, it will be unplugged....so there are no issues of someone falling over the cord.

I don't have the expertise to cut the wire and add length....plus, it would definitely affect the warranty I am sure.

Thanks for the help. now it's time to get running...

hj
02-08-2009, 08:21 AM
quote; Splice a longer cord of the same or larger AWG # into the existing cord. It's cheaper to buy an extension cord of the right gauge and cut the ends off, than to buy cable.
You can probably double the length this way, but you'll compromise its tensile strength somewhat.
You'll need solder, an iron, heat shrink tubing and a candle or gas flame to shrink the tubing.


That may be the most useless advice in a long time.
1. Cutting the cord might void the warranty, it would in most cases.
2. He was intending to buy the correct gauge extension. If he has the correct cord, he also has the connections to plug it into the wall and treadmill.
3. Why do something that might "compromise its tensile strength", needlessly.
4. What if does not have an iron, solder, tubing, or a gas flame? I suppose he could find a candle somewhere. And what about some matching color electrical tape to wrap around the shring tubing?

Thatguy
02-08-2009, 09:18 AM
quote; Splice a longer cord of the same or larger AWG # into the existing cord. It's cheaper to buy an extension cord of the right gauge and cut the ends off, than to buy cable.
You can probably double the length this way, but you'll compromise its tensile strength somewhat.
You'll need solder, an iron, heat shrink tubing and a candle or gas flame to shrink the tubing.


That may be the most useless advice in a long time.
1. Cutting the cord might void the warranty, it would in most cases.
2. He was intending to buy the correct gauge extension. If he has the correct cord, he also has the connections to plug it into the wall and treadmill.
3. Why do something that might "compromise its tensile strength", needlessly.
4. What if does not have an iron, solder, tubing, or a gas flame? I suppose he could find a candle somewhere. And what about some matching color electrical tape to wrap around the shring tubing?

OK. . .not a fan of Decision Theory. . .!

My problem is the contact impedance of using an extension cord, but if all the plugs grip the sockets firmly, I guess it'll be OK.
Besides, maybe this thing only pulls about 1hp; that is not a lot of current at 120v so impedance may not be that important.

I've lengthened many cords over years and not had a problem, but not cords designed for outdoor use because splicing this way compromises weatherproofness. Didn't match the colors, though. . .

If there are awards for bad movies, bad books, etc., I don't see why I shouldn't be nominated for a "bad post award." :)

And, speaking of decisions, if my bad posts outweigh my good posts by some unacceptable margin, throw me off this forum.
It is not my place to make that decision, but it might be yours.

TedL
02-08-2009, 12:39 PM
NO wonder people die early. They want to refuse to use mfg instructions.
Cars give out early. Why do people want to go aganist mfg. instructions for safety all the time? Do they just not care?
Things break. Warranty's voided! Why ask for others opinions when you already have the info you need from the mfg? Just to get away with something for convience. Dont touch that hot burner. Oh I didnt know I would get burned.

Yes you may never have a problem with doing what you are wanting. But you never know. Best to follow Mfg. guidelines!

Most instructions I've read in the last ten or twenty years appear to have been written by the legal department, not the engineering department.

Go read your car warranty. Most manufacturers specifically disclaim any warranty of "merchantabilty or suitability for a particular purpose". So, no warranty that your car is suitable for transporting a few human beings on paved roads. That's something to put your blind faith in!

Thatguy
02-08-2009, 12:50 PM
Mr. HJ, I should thank you forcing me to question how much importance I should place on a post like yours.

Regards, and good luck to Cookie!:)

hj
02-08-2009, 02:38 PM
Well, I read a report by emergency room doctors last week and one of them said, "Avoid anyone called Dude, or Some Fella", probably Some Guy also, because they are the ones who shoot you or start beating up on you. One good post can cover for a lot of bad ones. Just be sure you do have a good one now and then.

codeone
02-08-2009, 05:35 PM
Most instructions I've read in the last ten or twenty years appear to have been written by the legal department, not the engineering department.

Go read your car warranty. Most manufacturers specifically disclaim any warranty of "merchantabilty or suitability for a particular purpose". So, no warranty that your car is suitable for transporting a few human beings on paved roads. That's something to put your blind faith in!


You miss the whole purpose of the post!
The manufacture does know the best way to maintain your equiptment.
Also to tell someone to do something that the MFG specs and the UL listing espically in writing leaves you open to liabel yourself if something happens.
Do what you want but when it blows up in your face ( Metaphorically ) Who do you want to blame?

jwelectric
02-08-2009, 05:38 PM
Most instructions I've read in the last ten or twenty years appear to have been written by the legal department, not the engineering department.

Go read your car warranty. Most manufacturers specifically disclaim any warranty of "merchantabilty or suitability for a particular purpose". So, no warranty that your car is suitable for transporting a few human beings on paved roads. That's something to put your blind faith in!


I think what codeone was addressing was the code issues of the manufacturing instructions such as this.

110.3(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.

If the manufacturer said don't use a cord then don't use a cord plain and simple. This also means that a Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory has tested the piece of equipment without the use of a cord therefore the manufacturer of the equipment must include the verbiage to not use a cord in their instructions.

There has been a bunch of talk in this thread about wire size and all but not one of these geniuses has said a word about this treadmill being a motor driven piece of equipment and the current draw being more than the end cap of a cord can handle. Now instead of having one place where the connections are made with spring metal and blade he has two. Each will give a little more resistance to the circuit and this resistance is in series with an inductor (the motor). Anyone here smart enough to do a RL calculation?

But then again some of the people who have responded to this poor soul just don’t have any experience dealing with electricity except what they have read on a web site so I wouldn’t listen to someone who has worked in the electrical field for more years than most in here are old either.

Cookie
02-08-2009, 06:11 PM
What are the variables?

Scuba_Dave
02-08-2009, 06:35 PM
The main point would be how much power the treadmill pulls, size of the motor

You know the screw in adapters?
Screw it in & you can plug 2 items in right?
But how many people check the engraving on the item that states its only good for about 660 watts ??

http://images.hardwareandtools.com/P/u244491.jpg

jwelectric
02-08-2009, 06:36 PM
What are the variables?


The variables will be proportionate to the time and use to the equipment.

The more the cord cap is inserted and pulled out the more the spring of the device will weaken and the more resistance it will have. The more resistance it has the more arcing will occur thus the more resistance. This resistance is additive and will grow each and every time the equipment is used.

In an RL circuit or a circuit that has an inductor in series with a resistor the total impedance of the circuit will be the square root of the resistance squared plus the inductance squared.

In any series circuit the current is the same throughout the circuit. This added current will be added to the windings of the motor which will at some point in time burn out the motor.

Should the piece of equipment have digital components such as speed, time, distance ect…. this will see the effects of the added current draw first.

It will happen and this you can rest assured on.

jwelectric
02-08-2009, 06:38 PM
The main point would be how much power the treadmill pulls, size of the motor


The current draw of the treadmill will change with the size of the person using it as well as the speed that it is running.

Couple this with the resistance of a dying cord cap and receptacle and watch that piece of equipment slowly die.

jwelectric
02-08-2009, 06:39 PM
You know the screw in adapters?
Screw it in & you can plug 2 items in right?
But how many people check the engraving on the item that states its only good for about 660 watts ??

http://images.hardwareandtools.com/P/u244491.jpg

Can you find a UL mark on that?

Cookie
02-08-2009, 07:14 PM
My tread has various sensors, a pulse, a fan, motor, and a few other extras which are nice to have but all add up. My tread is capable of high speeds and can carry a weight of 275 lbs, I made sure of that because of my 2 big sons. I use a single-outlet surge suppressor that is UL 1449 (TVSS) and also, a UL suppressed voltage rating of 400 volts and a minimum surge dissipation of 450 joules. The surge suppressor must be electrically rated for 120 volts AC and 15 amps. I do not use anything else on that circuit no other appliances. I=E/R = 1 volt / 1 Ohm = 1 amp

The treadmill must be grounded. If it should malfunction or break down, grounding provides a path of least resistance for electric current to reduce the risk of electric shock. My treadmill is equipped with a cord having an equipment-grounding conductor and a grounding plug. My treadmill is not compatible with GFCI-equipped outlets; for use on a nominal 120-circuit.

I knew once of a treadmill which was left plugged in and caught on fire and burned down an apt building. There was one fatality.

Scuba_Dave
02-08-2009, 07:26 PM
Can you find a UL mark on that?

I know I had 2 of them, I think one broke & I tossed it out
Looked in my drawer of electrical odds & ends & & they aren't there

Scuba_Dave
02-08-2009, 07:38 PM
I have at least one of these that is also rated at around 650 watts

https://www.lightbulbemporium.com/prodimages/adapter-category.gif

Triple taps that I have are rated at 15a

http://di1.shopping.com/images/di/79/48/57/58516f3834544677746c2d3158795842673851-100x100-0-0.jpg

TedL
02-09-2009, 04:04 AM
If the manufacturer said don't use a cord then don't use a cord plain and simple. This also means that a Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory has tested the piece of equipment without the use of a cord therefore the manufacturer of the equipment must include the verbiage to not use a cord in their instructions.



So, plugging directly into a receptacle at the end of a daisy chain of 7 or 8 (or more) receptacles, wired in series using 14 ga. in the push-in holes in the back, is OK. Using a new 12 ga. 9 ft. extension cord, plugged into the first receptacle on a circuit wired with 12 ga., using screw terminals, is not OK because it introduces an extra spring tension connection. According to the manufacturer's installation & use instructions.

Personally, rather than attempt the calculations, I'd plug in my Kill-a-watt and monitor the voltage during a use cycle. And feel the temp of the connections at the end of use.

I'm all for safety and durability measures, based on reality and actual conditions. I retrofitted GFI and AFI, notwithstanding my homes were grandfathered. I've gone through and redone all the receptacles that the builder pushed the wires into (code acceptable). I use 20 amp spec grade receptacles for things like the laundry, refrig, freezer, microwave, for the safety & durability margin they give.

(I also toss tires at 4/32 and change oil at 3 mo/3 k miles. I change tranny fluid at 15k and fuel filters at 60k, even though the manufacturer doesn't specify any interval.)

I'm curious about one technical point: Does the quoted statement mean that any listed equipment which does not contain the "no extension cords" warning has been tested with extension cords?

hj
02-09-2009, 04:30 AM
quote; The more the cord cap is inserted and pulled out the more the spring of the device will weaken and the more resistance it will have.

What makes you think it will be plugged and unplugged more often with a cord than if it were directly into the socket. The reason for not recommending an extension cord is that some unenlightened people consider ALL cords equal as long as a device can plug into them, and has nothing to do with loss of tension and impedence.

mrmichaeljmoore
02-09-2009, 05:33 AM
ummmm....wow, i didn't expect such a discussion over a treadmill and an extension cord....
wow, and it has gotten a lot more scientific and techincal for my head.....

anyway...........

I used the treadmill this morning.
I used an extension cord...no apparent problems.

Here are the specs for the cord:
6' long
14 gauge
15 Amp, 125V
1875 Maximum Watts

I plugged the cord into the washing machine outlet, which has a dedicated 20 amp circuit in my panel. (I unplugged the washer cord).

thanks.
mike

Cass
02-09-2009, 05:42 AM
That should be OK...but find the rating plate on the treadmill that gives all the electrical specs and post what it says on there...

helix3
02-09-2009, 09:14 AM
I knew once of a treadmill which was left plugged in and caught on fire and burned down an apt building. There was one fatality.

I worked in R&D in the cardiovascular division of a large fitness company for a number of years and I've witnessed a number of treadmills go up, plugged in or not. I've had a treadmill shipped back to us after a fire marshall investigation and had it start smoking again as it sat (fault in the electronics and still-charged buss capacitors had something to do with this).

I can also tell you the #1 cause for treadmill fires - not cleaning it. Think of your dryer vent, same idea. Underneath the treadmill, dust, dirt, ect all collect. Circuit boards, motors, bad connections, etc.. all run hot in a treadmill and the flash point of dust is low, especially in winter when everything is so dry.

jwelectric
02-09-2009, 09:35 AM
quote; The more the cord cap is inserted and pulled out the more the spring of the device will weaken and the more resistance it will have.

What makes you think it will be plugged and unplugged more often with a cord than if it were directly into the socket. The reason for not recommending an extension cord is that some unenlightened people consider ALL cords equal as long as a device can plug into them, and has nothing to do with loss of tension and impedence.

May have something to do what what was said here


When the treadmill is not in use, it will be unplugged....so there are no issues of someone falling over the cord....

codeone
02-09-2009, 12:35 PM
The reason the codes are the way they are so no wall space is greater than 6foot from a rec. and no counter space is greater than 2' from a rec is to not to have to use extension cords. Extension cords used to be close to #1 on the list of reasons for house fires.

Anyone may use them at any time we are not going to police your home to see that you are not using them.

However the codes have been written over many years and come from many years of experience. We do not always understand certain ones, however in the past there was a problem. REMEMBER THE CODES ARE A MINIMUM.

Will you ever have a problem with what you are going to do. Maybe maybe not. Just be willing to accept the responsibility that comes with your decision.
If you base your decision on bad info or good info its still your decision and you are the one responsible for it.

Scuba_Dave
02-09-2009, 01:20 PM
I think one issue is that appliances, lights etc are all being made with shorter cords now to save Mfg $$. So while the "within" 6' rule used to work - in real life it no longer works all that great
One reason I put all my outlets much closer

And many Mfg warning labels & information are geared MORE to possible lawsuits & deniability in case of a problem then anything else
Some are written by people who have no clue what the code is or requires

codeone
02-09-2009, 04:16 PM
I think one issue is that appliances, lights etc are all being made with shorter cords now to save Mfg $$. So while the "within" 6' rule used to work - in real life it no longer works all that greatOne reason I put all my outlets much closerAnd many Mfg warning labels & information are geared MORE to possible lawsuits & deniability in case of a problem then anything elseSome are written by people who have no clue what the code is or requires1St* Possible however Code is the Minimum.2nd* Yes this could be true. Many people are quick to sue. Wanting to get the quick buck. Ever wondered why a ladder has the warning not to stand on or above this step, And why Mickey D's has a warning label on their coffee?Though if you follow the UL listing and Mfg instructions it will keep you out of most problems.Also with my profession I have to tell you the Code and Legal jargon. If I did not I would not be living up to my Oath as an Officer of the Courts.Have a wonderful evening!*

jwelectric
02-09-2009, 06:12 PM
Well I asked the man who was mowing the right of way down the street and he said do what ever you want to do cause that is what you are going to do to start with.

Now if anybody knows what they are talking about it would be him.

Scuba_Dave
02-09-2009, 06:59 PM
1St* Possible however Code is the Minimum.2nd* Yes this could be true. Many people are quick to sue. Wanting to get the quick buck. Ever wondered why a ladder has the warning not to stand on or above this step, And why Mickey D's has a warning label on their coffee?*

One ladder company (all?) had to modify "place on firm ground" to "each & every time you use it" as one homeowner placed the ladder on frozen ground. Then came back to use the ladder again & the ground had thawed & they fell. Homeowner sued & the frontal lobotomied jury found in HO's favor

hj
02-10-2009, 04:56 AM
quotes;
What makes you think it will be plugged and unplugged more often with a cord than if it were directly into the socket. The reason for not recommending an extension cord is that some unenlightened people consider ALL cords equal as long as a device can plug into them, and has nothing to do with loss of tension and impedence.May have something to do what what was said here


Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmichaeljmoore http://terrylove.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?p=183463#post183463)
When the treadmill is not in use, it will be unplugged....so there are no issues of someone falling over the cord....

I believe I covered that when I asked why a cord would have more problems than the machines plug, since they would be inserted the same number of times, regardless of how the receptacle was accessed.


ihttp://terrylove.com/forums/images/misc/progress.gif

codeone
02-10-2009, 04:58 AM
One ladder company (all?) had to modify "place on firm ground" to "each & every time you use it" as one homeowner placed the ladder on frozen ground. Then came back to use the again & the ground had frozen & they fell. Homeowner sued & the frontal lobotomied jury found in HO's favor

Ah yes no real justice in mans world! Try to protect yourself as best you can, no true justice. I once read " Man rules man to his injury" Clear case!

Sad but true.

We need the higher goverment to step in as promised.

codeone
02-10-2009, 05:30 AM
Also it proves there can be problems when you dont follow the MFG instructions and the UL listing.

Just because a fancy Lawyer can bedazle a group of jurors is not a reason to do things you are warned aganist.

Besides that the Lawyer probably got most of the reward from that jury!

mrmichaeljmoore
02-10-2009, 06:11 AM
That should be OK...but find the rating plate on the treadmill that gives all the electrical specs and post what it says on there...

According to the tag, here are the specs for the treadmill:

120V
60Hz
13A

if you need more info, let me know.

thanks.
mike

codeone
02-10-2009, 07:16 AM
If you go by the 80% rule you need a 20A dedicated circuit for best results for this appliance.

mrmichaeljmoore
02-10-2009, 09:58 AM
If you go by the 80% rule you need a 20A dedicated circuit for best results for this appliance.

I plug it into the washing machine outlet. It has its own 20a circuit breaker.
Obivously, I use it when the washing machine is NOT in use....and I also unplug the washing machine plug.

codeone
02-10-2009, 01:33 PM
I plug it into the washing machine outlet. It has its own 20a circuit breaker.
Obivously, I use it when the washing machine is NOT in use....and I also unplug the washing machine plug.

I am not saying the circuit you are using is not adaquate for either of your appliances. I must remind youin my profession I am required to give you the legal side of the issue. I'm not judging your choice of how to accomplish what you want to do. I also must remind you that you are violating code issues if you choose to use the extension cord. Im not condeming you at all. Weather you chose to do it one way or the other is your choice, just in my profession I personally cannot give approval. I have done my duty its your personal decision. Again I do not condem or think any less of you. You are a fine person because you are concerned with your safety and the safety of your family. I Applaud You.

TedL
02-10-2009, 01:41 PM
Codeone, I have to ask you another question. My Sony DVD recorder's instruction manual says (surprise, surprise) to use Sony blank DVDs when I record. Am I operating it in violation of the NEC, and your local laws based on it, if I use, say, TDK blanks?

Cookie
02-10-2009, 01:50 PM
Bikes are good.:)

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_35_8.gif

Scuba_Dave
02-10-2009, 02:06 PM
Codeone, I have to ask you another question. My Sony DVD recorder's instruction manual says (surprise, surprise) to use Sony blank DVDs when I record. Am I operating it in violation of the NEC, and your local laws based on it, if I use, say, TDK blanks?

You think the NEC dictates what type of blank DVD you use?
Seriously ??? :rolleyes:

TedL
02-10-2009, 04:19 PM
You think the NEC dictates what type of blank DVD you use?
Seriously ??? :rolleyes:

I'm just asking..........
It's manufacturer's operating instructions, which it seems the NEC requires us to observe....just like the instructions for the treadmill.

Scuba_Dave
02-10-2009, 04:24 PM
I've yet to see a DVD writer burn down a house from using the wrong blank :rolleyes:

codeone
02-10-2009, 05:09 PM
Codeone, I have to ask you another question. My Sony DVD recorder's instruction manual says (surprise, surprise) to use Sony blank DVDs when I record. Am I operating it in violation of the NEC, and your local laws based on it, if I use, say, TDK blanks?

You are not talking about a code issue here. This has nothing to do with Building,Electrical,Plumbing,Mechanical or Gas Piping or Fire Codes.

The issue with the Extension Cord does!

Again look at my previous post. I did not condem him if he wanted to use the cord. He still has to take responsibility for his actions if something does go wrong, just as you do for yours.

And who knows with the way electronics are they could code something in there to make the TDK's not work as well. Youll probably never know!:rolleyes:

codeone
02-10-2009, 05:12 PM
Forgot to mention the cord is a UL listing the tape is not.

TedL
02-10-2009, 05:48 PM
You've lost me. I thought you explained that the manufacturer's directions for the UL listed electrical equipment (treadmill) were required to be followed by the NEC, and therefore by local electrical codes that incorporate the NEC. But the manufacturer's operating instructions for the listed electrical equipment (DVD recorder) don't have to be followed? What's the diff?

Scuba_Dave
02-10-2009, 06:21 PM
Is the DVD blank an electrical component? Do you plug it in?
If you don't know the difference please don't do any electric work

jadnashua
02-10-2009, 07:46 PM
Motors often are listed at peak draw...if the appliance required a 20A supply, to pass UL, they would have to supply it with a 20A plug. the average is likely much less than max, and max is unlikely to be constant.

jwelectric
02-10-2009, 08:47 PM
With motors it doesn’t have to be continuous. If the name plate says 13 amps it would be my guess that it has a ˝ horse power motor.

When this motor starts up it will draw approximately 59 amps for a second or two.

I got these 59 amps from Table 430.251(A) for the locked rotor amps. Any electric motor will require a certain amount of current to overcome the rotor starting from a locked position (standing still) and bring it up to speed. Should this motor have some type of load such as a human body standing on it these amps will drop from 59 amps even slower than if the motor was under no load.

TedL
02-11-2009, 03:42 AM
"110.3(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling."

How does a consumer get access to the "instructions included in the listing"?

What constitutes "labeling"? Just the warning stickers placed on the equipment, or everything in the operating instructions (owner's manual)?