Black Spots in Bathtub.

[BMWGreenRT]

Some background info first.
I am in a brand new home, my water heater is a Bradford White 50 gallon.
It has a powervent installed. The 2" into 3" PVC vent pipe goes up about 2 feet and then horizontally for about 15 feet where it vents out of the basement wall.
I have a 72" by 48" fiberglass tub in white.

I have the unit set above the normal heat to a hotter setting, but not the highest available.

We are on City water not a well.

I have noticed little black specks on the bathtub recently. There is no shower in the tub. They were not there for the first three months of use. When rubbed they spread like ladies mascara would spread. It takes some rubbing and cleaning to get rid of them.
I thought at first maybe it was some kind of mold, but since it was only inside the tub, I decided to clean it with a 50/50 bleach water mix.
I let the tub sit for 3 days and nothing else appeared.
But once I filled the tub again with hot water, the little specks appeared again.
They are not in the sinks or toilets.
The toilets "do" show a very light pink colored ring at water level if not flushed for a couple of days, which cleans off very easily.

Does anyone have any idea what this is called, what causes this and how I can get rid of it.
All help would be appreciated.
If you need more info please ley me know.

Thank-you,
Jim

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Drain your water heater and see if it goes away.

[BMWGreenRT]

Drain your water heater and see if it goes away.

And if it does or doesn't...what was the cause?

If I drain it and it goes away, Great, but that still doesn't tell me what the problem was.
And if it doesn't go away, then I am still in the same boat as before.

Do you have any idea what the cause is?

C'mon Terry, help me out :(

[BMWGreenRT]

Thanks a lot for all the answers. :confused:



And if it does or doesn't...what was the cause?

If I drain it and it goes away, Great, but that still doesn't tell me what the problem was.
And if it doesn't go away, then I am still in the same boat as before.

Do you have any idea what the cause is?

C'mon Terry, help me out :(

[SteveW]

I'm not a plumber, but you're right, this does sound like some sort of mold or other microorganism. It is strange that you don't get the spots on the sink, but maybe it's because you use the sink more than the tub so that whatever is growing in the tub just doesn't have time to get established in the sink before you rinse the bowl. Or maybe you are using mouthwash which kills off the critters in the sink?

In any event, I think the idea of draining the water heater does make sense. I don't know if this happens in home water systems, but I do know there are some bacteria that thrive in hot water -- called "thermophiles." I believe these are the things that make the hot water pools in Yellowstone turn different colors.

Be patient -- you'll get more opinions as the pros have time -- don't forget that this is a *free* resource! :)

[BMWGreenRT]

Thanks Steve,
But I have found that the spots only appear with hot water use, not cold water.
Don't know if this will help the experst in diagnosing or not.
Jim


I'm not a plumber, but you're right, this does sound like some sort of mold or other microorganism. It is strange that you don't get the spots on the sink, but maybe it's because you use the sink more than the tub so that whatever is growing in the tub just doesn't have time to get established in the sink before you rinse the bowl. Or maybe you are using mouthwash which kills off the critters in the sink?

In any event, I think the idea of draining the water heater does make sense. I don't know if this happens in home water systems, but I do know there are some bacteria that thrive in hot water -- called "thermophiles." I believe these are the things that make the hot water pools in Yellowstone turn different colors.

Be patient -- you'll get more opinions as the pros have time -- don't forget that this is a *free* resource! :)

[hj]

Do you have a water softener? It appears to be the magnesium sulfide specks caused by a reaction of soft water with the water heater's anode rod. If so, then either remove the anode rod, or replace it with an aluminum one.

[BMWGreenRT]

I'm not using a water softener, but I will check into what you have mentioned anyway.

Thanks,
Jim

[plumguy]

Is you're water heater connected with flexible connectors (copper)? Some of them are lined with rubber and the rubber disinegrates into the hot water and can feel like grease and smear when touched.

[jq5]

I too have the EXACT same problem!!!! It's almost as if I wrote the post! I did flush my water heater and it was full of those black specs...tons of them. I ended up puting in a new hot water heater ,the manufacturer replaced it because they thought it was the heater too. But, after about a week maybe less the black specks returned! To this day on the rare occasion when my wife uses the jacuzzi the specks return and can only be removed with the Mr. Clean Magic Eraser. On some occasions I see a speck or two in the shower and kitchen sink. But, what's very odd is that our other tub does not have the problem??? I ran a tub full of cold water in the poblem tub and saw nothing.

What is this!!!!???? It seems to be mystifing everyone I talk to. The thread starter is the only person I know who has described my problem...EXACTLY!

Someone who woks for a city water plant said it was algae that is growing in the tank, some say it's an o-ring. But, neither explanation totally solves this mystery. Why is it not in the other tub? How come it rarely shows up in the showers, but ALWAYS in this one tub?? I don't have stainless steel braided hoses with o-rings just PVC with copper ends. To my knowledge no one on my street has this problem. I've called 2 plumbers and either left a voice mail or talk to the receptionist, but no one has returned my calls....very frustrating!! I know the thread starter and we can't be the only ones with this problem.

HELP!!! ANYBODY?????

[geniescience]

it seems we have sufficient information to be able to use rigor in our method.

1a. the tub "is fiberglass". Is this an acrylic coated tub?
1b. are the sinks made of the same material?

2. spots only appear "after hot water use". Has anyone put cold water in the tub to see whether eliminating that possibility is necessary?

david

[jq5]

it seems we have sufficient information to be able to use rigor in our method.

1a. the tub "is fiberglass". Is this an acrylic coated tub?
1b. are the sinks made of the same material?

2. spots only appear "after hot water use". Has anyone put cold water in the tub to see whether eliminating that possibility is necessary?

david


The tub is fiberglass...acrylic coated. Sinks are not made of the same material. I'm not certain what it's made of, but it's nothing exotic. Sinks like it can be found daily in any Lowes, Home Depot of the like.

Let me claify something...what we have are small black particles that do not float which causes them to fall to the bottom. They almost stick to the surface and when you try to remove them they just smear like mascara or black grease. They are VERY hard to remove.

I ran a tub full of cold water and it was crystal clear. Run the tub full of hot or warm water and presto here come the black particles not several hundred maybe < than 25 per tub of water.

Thanks!

[geniescience]

fast forward now to another approach: using a microscope, some of the specks that do come off easily, can be looked at closely. It's either organic growth (cells) or it's a substance.

If it does turn out to be something organic growing in the hot water pipes, the big question is, "what is organic food matter to it?". Secondly, what high temperature would kill it, in the HW heater, and would it still procreate in the pipes far enough away from the HW heater?

If it is a material, what is it?

Summary: Specks come from hot water only. Many were found in the previous HW heater when it was drained. There are occasional specks in all places, but not (not seen so far) in one of the two tubs. There are many in the one tub, an acrylic tub.

Please confirm this: you can see them flowing when the hot water is turned on and flowing; most of them fall and stick quite hard on the surface, whether it is acrylic or porcelain or another material.

david

[jq5]

fast forward now to another approach: using a microscope, some of the specks that do come off easily, can be looked at closely. It's either organic growth (cells) or it's a substance.

If it does turn out to be something organic growing in the hot water pipes, the big question is, "what is organic food matter to it?". Secondly, what high temperature would kill it, in the HW heater, and would it still procreate in the pipes far enough away from the HW heater?

If it is a material, what is it?

Summary: Specks come from hot water only. Many were found in the previous HW heater when it was drained. There are occasional specks in all places, but not (not seen so far) in one of the two tubs. There are many in the one tub, an acrylic tub.

Please confirm this: you can see them flowing when the hot water is turned on and flowing; most of them fall and stick quite hard on the surface, whether it is acrylic or porcelain or another material.

david

Yes, you can see them flowing. I have a microscope(from my days as a kid in the late 70's) and had considered looking at them under it. On rare occasions I've seen them in my stainless steel kitchen sink.

Thanks!

[jq5]

You mean to tell me this problem is so unusual that no one can help? Man I'm never gonna figure this thing out!

JQ5

[dubldare]

Expansion tank has given up the ghost.

I've seen this on relatively new (2-3 years) tanks that are installed on the hot line.

Those smeary black bits are a nightmare, no doubt.

[Cass]

Who was it that said plumbing was easy?

[prashster]

If it were a microorganism, it'd have a better chance of surviving in the cold water than the hot. Dunno.

My sister had a pink tinging problem in her new shower's grout. I read here that this could be a type of mold.

I've also heard that pink tinging in the toilet could be a sign of rust in the water. M I wrong? Is that rust yr seeing in the sink? Weird that it'd smear, though. Dunno.

[khayes]

Hi - sorry to be so late jumping in this thread, but I'm having the same problem with tiny black greasy spots. We've noticed the problem in my wife's bath - it seems to be hot water related - and we're noticing some spots on clothing from the washer. I had a plumber out and he said that we need to replace our hot water heater. It's only 8 years old. I drained a pan of water from it and it has the same black substance. I haven't noticed this in the showers, but maybe the shower head is filtering it, or maybe it's just washing down the drain before I see it.

Now for my question - I went to check water heaters and they are telling me that I also have to replace my existing expansion tank. Does that sound right?
Do those tanks go bad as well?

What about the anode rod - could it be a factor in the black spots? If so, should that be replaced with a different type whenever we get a new heater?

Thanks.

[jadnashua]

Don't know if this would help, but it won't hurt.

Turn the WH off, flush it out as well as you can until it runs clean. Fill it back up, turn it back on, set it to as hot as it will get and let it sit overnight. Then, turn it off again (you can shower, etc in the morning), flush it again. Then, see what happens.

I've read that sometimes if you are using a flexible connection on the supply to the WH, some have rubber internally, and it can degrade. Replacing them might solve the problem if that is the case.

Expansion tanks have a rubber bladder in them, and yes, it could be bad as well...they do eventually wear out. I suppose the black specs could also be coming from the breakdown of the rubber in it as well. If you knock on it, it should sound hollow (empty). If it is full of water, it's probably shot. It should be mostly filled with air. It has an air valve on the bottom (like a car tire). If you have the water supply to the house turned off and have opened a valve to relieve any pressure in the house, you can check the air pressure in the expansion tank. If you get water out of the valve, the tank is shot, replace it. If not, verify the pressure. It should be about the same as your normal water pressure. If you don't know that, pick up a guage from a big box store for about $10, and check it first. It will fit onto any hose connection - the washing machine, an outside faucet, the drain from the WH, etc., or anywhere if you buy an adapter to screw it on.

Note, the expansion tank should be on the cold inlet, not on the hot side of the tank. If it is on the hot side, it has other problems, and will die sooner, and give other problems.

Since you have an expansion tank, you probably either have a pressure reduction valve, or, less likely, a check valve to the house. The prv has rubber in it that could also be shot and spewing black specs into the water stream.

[geniescience]

Old braided stainless feed hoses, rubber lined, may be the problem.

See "Black Greasy Particles in Bathtub Water!" thread. Search on "particle" or "greasy".


david

[sunjun]

I am having the exact same problem--black spots in my bathtub only with hot water.
Did you ever find out what it was, correct it?

[Redwood]

Here is your pink/orange ring around the toilet or stained grout... Its not mold its Serratia Marcescens Bacteria.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serratia_marcescens

[jadnashua]

Rubber, when it gets old, breaks apart and the particles are black and oily. It could come from the WH if they used flexible lines to connect it. Most tub faucets don't have flexible hoses, so it probably isn't there. Most likely is the WH.

[Herk]

My vote's for disintegrating rubber. I recently repaired a water heater that had been poorly grounded. When the lower element fried, it shorted through the flex connectors and melted all four rubber washers. The renter said she had black water coming out of the kitchen faucet. Of course, it was also busy flooding the basement.

I've heard similar stories about the braided water heater connectors lined with rubber. If that's the case, get rid of them.

[chris quirk]

Jim...I have the same problem! I thought at first it was mold or mascara the I relised that its coming from the water.

I have been working with my builder to find the problem but they don't know. The black oils substanse is coming from the connection at the copper pipe and water heater. If you unscrew the brass connection at the hot water heater you will notice its building up there. If you rub your hand accross it it wil show up all over your hands.

We have replaced the connection but now its coming back. I have no way to look at the connection since the connection can not longer come off due to the connection which was used.

I beleive the black specs are coming from the galvanised pipe going into the water heater. Its coded with a white plastic however it may not be secure and lets in water to create the chemincal reaction needed to produce this.

I am glad I am not alone~!

[spdenning]

Do you have a water softener? It appears to be the magnesium sulfide specks caused by a reaction of soft water with the water heater's anode rod. If so, then either remove the anode rod, or replace it with an aluminum one.

I have a brand new home as well... same issue with black specks in tub. My builder's plumber has indicated that it is the water softener causing issues with the anode. Sounds about right since we have no rubber parts and/or much copper (just elbows) in the plastic piping (tech term for this?).

My question is about replacing the anode with aluminum. I have read that magnesium is better, but if it is just the magnesium that is causing the black specks, then will aluminum really fix the problem?

We never had this problem in our old house (which was also new build), but I used potassium chloride in my water softener instead of sodium chloride (salt). Potassium chloride is really hard to find (not impossible), so I decided to use regular salt which is in just about every store (Sears, Target, Home Depot). But then again, maybe the water heater in that house had aluminum anodes to start with.

[foxhome01]

Hi! I'm so glad that I found this thread. For those of you who have dealt with this issue, any chance you ever figured out what the problem was?

We just recently started having similar issues. We had a plumber come by and he has absolutely no idea what the black specks are, but took a sample and sent it out for some testing. Waiting on the results.

In the meantime, this is a real hassel b/c these black spots have invaded our dishwasher and it sticks to anything plastic (including my baby's bottles which I now have to boil spring water in order to clean them properly). The black specks are also appearing in our tubs and showers. Coming out of the faucets too. What a project!

Any guidance on this is grately appreciated.

Christine

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Expansion tank disintegrating
Water heater in need of cleaning
Defective washer(s) in a faucet



When you see these specks, can you rub them and smear?

Or do they stay hard and stay as small pieces?

[foxhome01]

They rub and smear. VERY hard to clean (if I even can). Going to try a grease cutting product to see if that helps.

[waweez]

Please allow this newby a contribution to the mystery spots thread. My tub is also a sufferer of the dreaded black spot disease. When I found this forum and realized the extent of the problem, I set out to find the best method of getting rid of these spots (Always have loved a challenge).

I have no solution to the origin of the spots, however, I have discovered an easy method for getting rid of them, once they occur. Get yourself a Mr. Clean Magic Eraser! Get the kind with the blue scrubber side and the Febreeze air freshener. This product took care of the spots easily. No additional cleaners needed. Find them in the laundry/cleaning aisle at the grocery store. You'll love these little sponges so much you won't be able to stop at the bathroom.
Happy erasing!

[jimbo]

I have seen this exact problem , related to deterioration of the inner lining of a black nylon braided supply line.

Try this. Do not run any hot water for several hours. Then put a bucket in the tub and run hot full blast. See if you get any blackish stuff in the water.

[Redwood]

I have also seen this problem cured by HJ's suggestion of replacing the magnesium anode rod with an alumininum one...

[Mama1]

Our tub has had this problem for over a year now. It only comes out of the hot water tap and once out of the shower head. The only thing different is that we don't have a regular water heater, we have a tankless heater, or an "on-demand" system. I don't know if that makes a difference in what is possibly causing the problem.

Also, and I don't know if this is related but our hot water tap for that tub has always had poor water pressure. The cold is fine and all of the other faucets and the other shower has great pressure but the tub has slow pressure only on the hot water.

Anyone??

[Rob003]

Same problem here. I have a 2 year old home with a water softener and hot water heater expansion tank. I would like to know if everyone involved have either of these additional items.

I contacted my builder's plumbing company and they told me that the black particles are dead bacteria in the hot water heater. The cause is due to the hot water heater being set to high (would like to know for those affected if their setting is above the med temp (B) or not. Solution was to drain/flush the tank for 10 mins and set the temp gauge between (A) and (B). (I did but still see particles sometime - not sure if I flushed the tank well enough).

My gut is telling me that it has to something to do with the expansion tank. For awhile, my water softener was set at a higher than normal setting and I believe that this may have damaged the expansion tank. I will do the tap test (as someone suggested) this evening and see if it sounds like the tank is full of water (if so, the tank is bad) and I will replace.

Lastly, the best solution to remove the black marks from you tubs is from the automotive section at your Wal-Mart or car parts store. Look for Bug and Tar removal/cleaner. It comes in aerosol and spray. It really cleans up the mess and doesn't appear to harm the fiberglass finish.

I hope this help and if anyone resolves the problem, pls let us all know.

Rob003

[ladysawfan]

he asked me to run the water from the tap for 10 minutes and see. it workd so far only 1 black spot instead of hundreds. i dont want to have to do this every time, however. the faucet is a big one and runs a lot of water. and this seems to happen if you dont use the tub for about 2 weeks. i travel, so when i am out of town it doesnt get used.

[jimbo]

and this seems to happen if you dont use the tub for about 2 weeks. .\\

Seems to be much agreement that it is rubber deterioration. Classic symptom is that if the faucet is used freqently, the disintegration is gradual and not noticed, but when undisturbed for hours or days, then the tap turned on...a great deal of the material breaks loose.

The places you would find a rubber lined hose are the water heater flex connector, and if this is a roman tub...there might be such a hose under. Have you checked either of these?

Certainly a rubber washer like in a tub valve could also be the problem. Is it a single handle tub/shower valve? Likely not rubber. But if it is a 2 or 3 handle, take out the hot stem and inspect for a rubber washer.

[diyer63]

I too have same problem and just ran across this site....I've read all the posts, and still appears that there is not a permanent solution. These little black dots/specks are extremely hard to remove from fiberglass tub & surround. I've used bleach (although hesitant too since have septic system) and other cleaning supplies but still will not remove unless I actually use my fingernail and "pick" / scrub them off.

These only appear in the bath in the basement. The house is 10 years old and the water heater is only a few years old now. No rubber gaskets anywhere in plumbing that I know of (except for O-ring to seal water filter and that is brand new).

I certainly think that it is a micro-organism of some sort as others have suggested, but am stymied as to why no cleaning solution, esp. bleach does not even "touch" these things.

Many of these are on the shelf of the surround where what does not hit so do not think it is coming from water heater or the water itself. Also, the hot water, as well as cold, appears crystal clear in a glass.

This almost looks like black over-spray from an aerosol paint can, if that helps.

Thank you for all your help.

[pd]

After reading these posts & talking to AO Smith water heater support the only
source of rubber in my copper H20 supply is the plex connectors. AO Smith said the Anode usually causes "smelly" water.

I replaced the plex connectors with flex copper connectors and no more specks in the hot water to the washer or the bathtub. I will give this at least several weeks before declaring a solution but all is ok after getting rid of the plex which was in sorry shape on the interior.

The specks,flecks I had were black floating which would smear on the porcelain
very difficult to cleanup. So far several hot water tests in the bathtub & washer
with not repeat of the problem.

[foxhome01]

This has been and on and off issue for us. We first noticed these smear-like specks about a year ago. Replaced expansion tank and anode rod. Came back a few months later and brought along larger specks but these larger one's didn't smear.

We wound up replacing the PRV on the main line thinking it was the rubber from there (but honestly, it didn't even look that bad) and while we don't have the large specks any longer we still see the smear-like specks in the bath tub and dishwasher.

I think I will say that it's no where near what it used to be...but it's not resolved. We are starting to see the black specks also on hand rags that we would use in the shower and the tub (it's not mold, which I thought could have been the case...too many rags it's happening too) ODD...very ODD. Especially since we can't really see them until afterwards. We can't see it when we run the tub/shower. It sort of just shows up and is there ready to be smeared. :p

I had lowered the water heater some since it's summer time and within a week of doing that we saw an increase in the smear-like specks. Increased the heat and there's a decrease but still exists.

I'm not sure there's been any resolution for some folks dealing with this.

As for cleaning the buggers, the only thing I found that works is soft scrub but I have to scrub real hard to get it removed.

[Nader]

My question is in response to the post by "pd". What is a Plex Connector? I've done some searching on google and not coming up with anything. Are you referring to the flexible water supply hose?

By the way, I am so surprised to hear so many people with new houses complaining of this problem. I have an old Craftsman, 1914, and have been thinking that it is the old pipes. But, over the past five years a number of remodeling projects have happened, except there hasn't been any new plumbing installed, just new fixtures with a little bit of copper piping attached to the old galvanized pipes.

[Mouse100]

Some background info first.
I am in a brand new home, my water heater is a Bradford White 50 gallon.
It has a powervent installed. The 2" into 3" PVC vent pipe goes up about 2 feet and then horizontally for about 15 feet where it vents out of the basement wall.
I have a 72" by 48" fiberglass tub in white.

I have the unit set above the normal heat to a hotter setting, but not the highest available.

We are on City water not a well.

I have noticed little black specks on the bathtub recently. There is no shower in the tub. They were not there for the first three months of use. When rubbed they spread like ladies mascara would spread. It takes some rubbing and cleaning to get rid of them.
I thought at first maybe it was some kind of mold, but since it was only inside the tub, I decided to clean it with a 50/50 bleach water mix.
I let the tub sit for 3 days and nothing else appeared.
But once I filled the tub again with hot water, the little specks appeared again.
They are not in the sinks or toilets.
The toilets "do" show a very light pink colored ring at water level if not flushed for a couple of days, which cleans off very easily.

Does anyone have any idea what this is called, what causes this and how I can get rid of it.
All help would be appreciated.
If you need more info please ley me know.

Thank-you,
Jim

I have the same problem... only the water from the hot water side comes out with a black tint to it... leaves a black greasy residue all in the tub... it's hard to clean because it smears like eye makeup... We changed out our hot water heater at a cost of $ 300. and it didn't work... then nt husband put a new anti rod or whatever that thingy is called on the new hot water heater.. I couldn't take a bath if I wanted to... water is filled with black greasy stuff... does not happen in shower... I wish someone new how to fix this problem! Also we have city water not a well. I don't understand why it does not happen in the cold water doesn't it all run through the same pipes? Very disgusted with this problem!
Becky from Texas

[Redwood]

Nope, HJ and Plumguy pretty much nailed the possible causes.
It's either magnesium sulfide from your water reacting with the anode in which case an aluminum anode is the fix.

Or there is deteriorating rubber somewhere. Chloramines used in water disinfection attack rubber causing it to breakdown. It may be from inside a flexible supply for a water heater, an expansion tank, or even valve parts...

[ksrountree]

During our research of this problem, we came accross this report out of Florida: http://www.psc.state.fl.us/utilities/waterwastewater/blackwater/finalreport.pdf

The report lead us to believe black water from copper pipe corrosion and the resulting residue or sediment from this corrosion, combined with the the use of water softeners had contributed to black spots on our clients bathtub and shower floors. Our client disconnected the water softener and flushed the copper pipes resulting in a fix. This may not solve everyones problem.

[worsnup]

you have plastic or pex water system, its algae and its common in plastic systems in phoenix

[gefact]

BLACK SPOTS RESOLVED!!!!
Hi Gang,
I had the same problem and found the answer on another thread. The problem was in the braided lines connecting the hot water heater to the water line. The inside is black rubber and when they get old the insides peel away and release into the water system. I just replaced my hoses and cut one of the old ones opened and the black oily stuff was inside and came off in my finger.

Hope this helps!

[Smoothie]

I have black specks in my bathtub also. They do not spread like mascara. It is more like a hard plastic. It only comes from the hot water heater in my wood furnace. The specks are quite big. You can easily see them and picked them up. They are not metal. Somebody said they had the same problem and they had to replace the mixing valve. What is the mixing valve?

[Angie Scarle]

I also have this problem, but it seems worse than the other people. Sometimes it's big chunks of black in the bathtub like charcoal. I have learned to manage it by keeping the pressure & temperature down. However, if someone flushes the toilet, uses a sink, or anything while I am running bathwater, I get loaded with huge chunks of this black coal like substance in the bathtub. My house was built in 1995, and the black only seems to come out of the master bathtub, and one sink that is right next to it. The bathtub is the most noticable. It's really annoying. I have a weird water heater, it had to be special ordered because of a unique venting system. I don't believe it's the water heater, because it's been going on over a year, and I have never seen it in the kitchen sink, dishwasher, or anywhere else in the house. i don't want to waiste money taking things apart, the plummer said I needed a new water heater, but this doesn't seem logical to me. If it were the water heater, why isn't it coming out of all f the faucets?