tankless-luke warm shower

[wt]

I recently installed a tankless hot water heater. I have a shower panel with a single handle adjustment with a mixing valve. The only way I can get the shower hot is by restricting flow at the gate valve on the cold supply line. I have adjusted the shower anti scald valve all the way to its hottest setting. All other fixtures in house will produce hot water. I did notice in a second bathroom that has an older valve setup that when only the hot water is turned on all the way that the flow is not as strong as it used to be prior to hooking up the tankless unit. It does come out hot but the flow rate is less than if you turn on only the cold side. Could the imbalance in flow rate at the mixing valve be the reason for not getting a hot shower? Can I put a circulation pump on the hot line to increase the pressure to match that of the cold line? Do I put the pump after the tankless unit or before it? Thanks for your help.

Water pipe sizing (http://www.terrylove.com/watersize.htm)

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Sounds like an undersized unit.

No fixes for that.


You're exceeding the demand that tankless will provide.



Use a water saver showerhead.


Did you buy the bosch from lowe's/home depot?

[jadnashua]

Almost all tankless systems have a flow restrictor in them. So, not seeing as much volume in the hot side verses the unrestricted cold side is entirely normal. I do not know for sure, but wouldn't be surprised that the valve will not allow all hot input, and because the cold is full flow, you may never get hot enough. The pressure balance function may be restricting the hot flow.

[Ladiesman271]

To get an informed answer first make sure that your heater is perfoming right.


1. Measure the temperature of the hot water at the sink closest to the shower after the hot water has run for a while.

2. Measure the temperature of the cold water at the sink closest to the shower after the cold water has run for a while.

3. Measure how many gallons per minute you get from your shower head with your normal settings.


The make and model number and type (gas/electric) of the tankless is also needed.

[nhmaster]

Ain't tankless heaters great? :D Note the number of threads about tankless problems compared to threads about tank water heater problems.

[Gary Swart]

I wondered how long you could keep quite on this one. :D Gotta love tankless. Without them and Whirlpool WHs it would be lonesome.

[nhmaster]

I had a nightmare last night. House piped in CPV and ABS with a tankless water heater, Champion toilets and Moen valves throughout. AHHHHHHHHHHH.:eek:

[master plumber mark]

Delta faucets have been in so much controversy
due to the tankless water heaters that they are now
sending out a disclaimor in every box telling
the customer that a pressure balanced faucet
and a tankelss water do not work well together....


they empahtically state that this is not their
faucets problem, it is the gap and hesitation
in the tankless heater that causes the trouble..


their pressure balanced faucet is
doing what it was intended to do
so piss off.






gee, I wonder if that is what is going on here>>>:D..

[gregsauls]

Delta faucets have been in so much controversy
due to the tankless water heaters that they are now
sending out a disclaimor in every box telling
the customer that a pressure balanced faucet
and a tankelss water do not work well together....


they empahtically state that this is not their
faucets problem, it is the gap and hesitation
in the tankless heater that causes the trouble..


their pressure balanced faucet is
doing what it was intended to do
so piss off.






gee, I wonder if that is what is going on here>>>:D..

Got one of each... they work well together for me and my family of six.... But then again I installed both! :p

Water pipe sizing (http://www.terrylove.com/watersize.htm)

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Delta faucets have been in so much controversy
due to the tankless water heaters that they are now
sending out a disclaimor in every box telling
the customer that a pressure balanced faucet
and a tankelss water do not work well together....


they empahtically state that this is not their
faucets problem, it is the gap and hesitation
in the tankless heater that causes the trouble..


their pressure balanced faucet is
doing what it was intended to do
so piss off.






gee, I wonder if that is what is going on here>>>:D..


I missed this....so is Delta putting this in their boxes, or the tankless heaters?


I never read the instructions on anything; I learn more by trying to figure it out on my own.

I just bought a kidney from india and I think it's working. I'm pissing blood but that's normal for the first 96 hours!

[sjsmithjr]

Well, it's on the Delta website:

"Often the outgoing water pressure from a "tankless" water heater is relatively low. As a result, these devices are not generally recommended for use with pressure balanced units due to the possible differences in water pressure from the hot and cold lines. For example, if you were to have 20 PSI on the hot supply line and 50 PSI on the cold, since pressure balancing adjusts to the low pressure, your resulting operating pressure in the shower will be reduced."

Maybe Greg should give Delta a call and let them know that their wrong too. The Boy Scout's all trades certified and got it all figured out, you know. :rolleyes:

[gregsauls]

Well, it's on the Delta website:

"Often the outgoing water pressure from a "tankless" water heater is relatively low. As a result, these devices are not generally recommended for use with pressure balanced units due to the possible differences in water pressure from the hot and cold lines. For example, if you were to have 20 PSI on the hot supply line and 50 PSI on the cold, since pressure balancing adjusts to the low pressure, your resulting operating pressure in the shower will be reduced."

Maybe Greg should give Delta a call and let them know that their wrong too. The Boy Scout's all trades certified and got it all figured out, you know. :rolleyes:

Sure, they can call me! Delta can even come out and check what I have. It works and YOU can't take that fact away! HAHA. The key to a tankless system being trouble free is proper sizing of the unit in the first place. Buy too small a unit and you WILL have problems. Installation issues is the second area of problems. Wrong gas line sizing, wrong water pipe sizing and tankless location will cause problems too. The third area of issues is region... too cold inlet water temp, too low water pressure and just plain too cold of region can all cause problems.

Selling, installing, and using a tankless system requires some brain power! Don't be dissin' a Boy Scout.... :cool:

[sjsmithjr]

I see. So the blind squirrel gets a nut and things like working in your field for over 20 years, extensive experience, the ability to troubleshoot multiple systems, etc. etc. goes out the window.

Why wait to be discovered? I really think you should give Delta a call and explain to them the error of their ways. Why stop there, though? HD and Lowes are obviously in need of schooling as well. Sounds to me like your sitting on a gold mine!

[Redwood]

Here greg just so you have the benefit of seeing it with your own eyes...


Are "tankless" water heaters recommended?

Often the outgoing water pressure from a "tankless" water heater is relatively low. As a result, these devices are not generally recommended for use with pressure balanced units due to the possible differences in water pressure from the hot and cold lines. For example, if you were to have 20 PSI on the hot supply line and 50 PSI on the cold, since pressure balancing adjusts to the low pressure, your resulting operating pressure in the shower will be reduced.

http://www.deltafaucet.com/customersupport/faq/Water+Pressure/

Perhaps you need to realize that your tankless experience down in Texas is going to be a lot more pleasant than a person might have in Houlton, Maine where they might be looking at an 87 Degrees F rate of rise spec and wondering when some water is going to start coming out of their pressure balanced shower.

To ignore that is simply having a vision problem...

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2/Redwood39/2968156492_bed7b7c3ff.jpg

[Redwood]

Hmmm, your words not mine. But if the shoe fits....

You know what probably would help this forum, this board and the people posting real world questions? Put a post up for all the tankless bashing to take place so all the die hard folks can whale away on. Then lets leave all the new posts for people who have questions about issues, large or small, to valid answer and not just another avenue for the pro/con wars that will do the end user no good!

Time for a truce folks. Otherwise I see no end to this stupidity! Can you do it is the question?:eek:

Is tankless performance outside of the extreme south of the country a real world question?

When you get away from there tankless loses its practicle and green appeal.
It becomes more a situation of I want my 20 GPM carwash shower to work and I want an unlimited supply of water for it!
I don't care what it costs!

[CarlH]

I think the OP got the most likely answer to their problem, which is the combination of a flow restrictor on the tankless and pressure balance valve are the cause of the luke warm shower. Also, Delta recognizes this potential problem. Note that Delta used the word "Often" and not "Always". And I would have thought that a pressure balanced valve would have helped out the situation. I guess I learned something new today.


Greg,
It is situations like these where a tankless heater gets a bad rap. Whose fault is it in this case? Does it matter? What is the OP going to do to resolve the problem? Get a tankless with a higher capacity/flow? Change the shower valve? Either way it may be an additional expenditure that was not expected.

Also, note that there are different makes of Tankless heaters on the market and they vary in their performance and reliability. Sounds like the Rinnai that you have is a decent unit and seems to be working out well for you. I'd be curious to hear how that unit works out for you in the long term, good or bad. Now that you've had it for a few months, have you noticed much of a change in your gas consumption? Does the gas consumption begin to rise before a routine cleaning?

[Redwood]

Your refusal to read and comprehend my posts are very tiring. But I will push again for it seems to be my destiny here. READ MY ENTIRE POST DANG IT ! Geez! :confused:

I did NOT say the entire country or even part of it could not benefit from tankless water heaters. YOU injected your interpretation of MY words to read "Indiana" in the mix! Fact :mad:

My full message also includes the fact that a proper sized unit is important, if not critical, to the proper function of an overall tankless SYSTEM ! :mad:

Buy too small a tankless unit (read undersized), hot water restriction will occur at the tankless end as hot water needs exceed unit capability and WILL result in LOW pressure (throttled by tankless) at a Delta anti-scald valve. Delta is doing a CYA right now in my opinion. :eek:

Rugged said it in post #2... "Sounds like an undersized unit."

Keep twisting my words and I can keep resting my point.

No Greg, I'm just saying in your replies to other posters that are telling of their experience in their area with tankless and comparing it with your experience brings little to the table.

As for Delta doing a CYA... the problem is not theirs...
Cutting back flow rates to maintain temperature is the nature of the beast with tankless and they are stating they are not responsible fir ineffiecencies of a water heating system...

[gregsauls]

I think the OP got the most likely answer to their problem, which is the combination of a flow restrictor on the tankless and pressure balance valve are the cause of the luke warm shower. Also, Delta recognizes this potential problem. Note that Delta used the word "Often" and not "Always". And I would have thought that a pressure balanced valve would have helped out the situation. I guess I learned something new today.


Greg,
It is situations like these where a tankless heater gets a bad rap. Whose fault is it in this case? Does it matter? What is the OP going to do to resolve the problem? Get a tankless with a higher capacity/flow? Change the shower valve? Either way it may be an additional expenditure that was not expected.

Also, note that there are different makes of Tankless heaters on the market and they vary in their performance and reliability. Sounds like the Rinnai that you have is a decent unit and seems to be working out well for you. I'd be curious to hear how that unit works out for you in the long term, good or bad. Now that you've had it for a few months, have you noticed much of a change in your gas consumption? Does the gas consumption begin to rise before a routine cleaning?

I agree that the bad rap may be a needless case of chasing rabbits and red herrings. I think that manufacturers may be overstating some of the spec. This in turn could lead to undersizing issues. That "global warming" thing we are seeing now isn't helping :cool:

Our 1 year anniversary with our Rinnai will be in August. I will be doing a 30 minute descaling and filter clean at that time. I did look at the filter last November out of curiosity and it was clean. I do believe also in "you get what you pay for" in that the Rinnai represents one of the top 3 or so of quality tankless manufacturers. No, I am not on their payroll either ;)

Being a long time (20+ years) Mac owner and authorized service provider... I don't advocate what sjsmithjr talked about! I charge extra, read triple, when I work on junked up system like that.

[sjsmithjr]

Hmmm, your words not mine.

Well, actually, the part a guy with over 20 years experience in his field, a guy with extensive experience and the ability to troubleshoot multiple systems is from your business' website. That's you in your field.

A lot of the plumbers dispensing advice here have the same or better qualifications in their fields. They're not troglodytes nor are they basing thier opinion on one install; you know, the guy who got a lot of parts at a good price and got it to work for him under one set of conditions.

I am happy to hear your's is working well for you. Now if it were to experience a catastrophic failure of a critical component, how long would it take to get the part? Around here it would be "days" even with an expedited order.

[gregsauls]

I am happy to hear your's is working well for you. Now if it were to experience a catastrophic failure of a critical component, how long would it take to get the part? Around here it would be "days" even with an expedited order.

Will deal with downtime, if and when it happens. I hear Fedex has this thing called overnight shipping. May try it down here in the backwoods of Texas. :D

More FUD

[Redwood]

Will deal with downtime, if and when it happens. I hear Fedex has this thing called overnight shipping. May try it down here in the backwoods of Texas. :D

More FUD

I'll have to try that sometime with Kohler...
Thanks for the tip on FEDX....

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2/Redwood39/laugh-1.gif

[sjsmithjr]

Can a plumber fix a DVD player? Plumbers and electronics (AKA tankless water heater) do not mix very well!

More FUD. I thought you olive branch guys weren't into that.:eek: Besides, who fixes a DVD player these days and what's the turnaround time? My buddy that does that for a living tells me about 10 working days. If you think plumbers and electronics repair don't mix then please tell me how Joe Average and electronics mix? How many homeowners fix their own DVD players?

As for FEDEX...

DAY 1 - No hot water, what's the problem? Call the plumber, not the TV repair man.
DAY 2 - Supply house calls vendor, orders part.
DAY 3 - Vendor processes order.
DAY 4 - Part shipped.
DAY 5 - Part arrives; after all the repair calls have been scheduled and left for the day.
DAY 6 - Oops! That's Saturday. Time and half for Joe Average to get hot water restored on Day 6.

Of course, I could have hitched up the horse and rode into town and picked up the parts to fix my conventional hot water heater the same day.

[jadnashua]

Nptice that the OP made one posting and never came back!

I'm here, reading your comments, and, my original post was to provide some basis for evaluating a tankless' operation. If you notice, I've got over 9000 posts...and am a moderator.

I was trying to explain that yes, you can use a tankless, and yes, they can work fine for your application, but, they have limitations, as does any solution. You need to understand what they can do, and their quirks. If you plan large volume simultaneous uses, you better have a huge gas line and a major flue for what may be multiple units ganged together. You can only get a certain amount of temperature gain as the water flows by. Most people don't have a feel for how big a unit you need to match your needs. By using the numbers I provided, you can see if the specs for the unit you are thinking about actually is blowing smoke, or has a basis in sound facts. If the spec sheet lists a 70-degree rise, but you don't need that because you live in Hawaii and your incoming water never gets lower than 60-degrees, you need someone to help you understand what you can actually get out of the thing...same thing if you live in Nome, Alaska, and it averages just over freezing most of the year.

Some people never use a tub and don't need to worry about trying to fill it in the middle of the winter. Some people regularly have 2-3 people taking a shower at the same time getting ready for work or school. Some people like a shower with 3-4 body sprays and a rain-shower head running, while doing the laundry and the dishes. So, the quantity of hot water reliably available can vary radically. If you are going to use any technology, you need to understand the properties to make the best choice. For me, since I have a very efficient modulating, condensing boiler, I've got an indirect. I've lived with tankless systems over the years, and yes, they are better now than they were.

If you make an intelligent, realistic assessment of your hot water use and the local water conditions (temp and hardness), you can then determine how big a unit you need.

The low-flow turn on point and flow restriction were significant turn-offs to me in practical use over the years. You may never experience that, but you should at least become aware of it rather than glossing over it in the specs and not understand the ramifications.

Most people don't have experience with this technology. It's not like going down to the car dealer and doing a test drive; typically, once you shell out your money, you own it, whether it works well or not when it comes to installing a tankless system. You can make some expensive mistakes. What I hoped to do with this thread was to provide some guidance on the pros and cons...sniping at responders does no good, and is kind of childish.

[CarlH]

How many tankless water heaters control water temperature by cutting back flow rates? My particular water heater has a fixed rate flow restrictor of 3 1/4 gpm. That is greater than than the government mandated flow capacity of current model showerheads!

But can you run two showers simultaneously? Or a shower and something else?

Oh wait, you can do two showers at the same time. All you need is the right shower heads. Here's what you need:
http://www.speakmancompany.com/products/detail/S-2253-E15
or
http://www.waterpikecoflow.com/VBE-423/
or
http://www.deltafaucet.com/bath/details/75155.html

Do you have a small household or do you limit it to one shower at a time?

It is not uncommon for me to have two showers going at a time, but I'm on tank type.

[Redwood]

How many tankless water heaters control water temperature by cutting back flow rates? My particular water heater has a fixed rate flow restrictor of 3 1/4 gpm. That is greater than than the government mandated flow capacity of current model showerheads!

Quite a few actually.

[Redwood]

Can a plumber fix a DVD player? Plumbers and electronics (AKA tankless water heater) do not mix very well!

You might be surprised as to the electronic qualifications some of us have...
We just like the money we make in plumbing....:cool:

[Redwood]

Uh, Mod, I think you got the threads confused. This thread was a legit question by a new post on the forums. A the thread quickly denigrated to tankless bashing. I hope a few of us here can reverse this trend and offer some practical advice without quickly resorting to... BURN HER.

Your comments above and in another tankless thread are on target with regard to learning about the proper ownership of the technology in your home. I agree that EVERY technology out there has pro's and con's. Some can handle technology change and some can't.

BTW, called Apple today in need of a replacement battery for my notebook. Will be here tomorrow morn by 11:30am. That's service powered by Fedex!

And on the last note... THEY STARTED IT :D

YMMV when it comes to getting tankless parts...

[SewerRatz]

Can a plumber fix a DVD player? Plumbers and electronics (AKA tankless water heater) do not mix very well!

I can fix DVD players, computers, military radios. Heck I even can design electronic circuits and program computers.

Long long ago, back when there was a gaming system called the Oddessy II (shortly after pong) It came with a cartridge that let you write simple hex decimal code. Ever since I was hooked. I self taught myself basic electronics and a few programing languages. I then went into the Army as 29E which is Field radio repair, I aced the class. When I got home the electronics market was flooded with everyone wanting to be in it as well as computer programing and such. Everywhere I went for a job I was told Military training does not count I need to have a degree in electronics. I did eventually get a job in a shop designing test fixtures for an electronics shop to pretest and final test all the circuit boards they designed. Sadly I only got $6 bucks an hour. When my daughter was about to be born they only gave me a 25 cent raise, so I called my old man and told him I am coming to work for him in plumbing, and here I am.

Sorry about the tangent, but as Redwood said you will be surprised what us plumbers can do.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Since we are in the land of make-believe,


I get about 5-10 calls a year on tankless heaters that are in FAIL mode, meaning not working and the wife is considering divorce sooner than later. That's right you married men; odds are at 75% you're not ending your life with your mate, buy a tankless to shorten that time span. A true "leurve-tester" of sorts. LMFAO!!!


It's always the same, and they mentioned they've called every plumber in the book and they are more than frustrated at this point because the initial installer says, "We install them, we don't service them" and away he goes not answering the phone, ever again because he made his dime, why should he sit there for HOURS looking up PDF files and troubleshooting regs and error codes KNOWING the customer is going to expect this time for free, given the fact the consumer now thinks you built this device in your basement with a ball peen hammer and some wires, some copper tubing and a couple screws.

It's worth the loss of a customer at this point because they are now in the "I regret this buying decision" mode because not everyone can afford top of the line tankless heaters, and not everyone can install them themselves.

So, the person on the other end is heated, upset that he's been without hot water for days, not hours and the parts that were sent to him, weren't the right ones, or they didn't fix the problem.

Is this my fault? Are you going to hustle me down because you didn't check out what swayed you to begin with? Anytime I hear "bosch" and "tankless" in the same sentence, I start busting out laughing knowing you got stupid stamped on yo fo-head. :D

Ain't nuttin' I'm going to deal with, phone call is ending in 3, 2, 1.....click!



Has anyone with a brain figured out WHY the supply houses don't carry repair parts? You think they are going to let you pull parts off the display model? Oh wait, there's a G instead of a P in the serial number...won't work.

"Did you call the friendly tech support M-F 9-6 and WHAT!?!?!?! No weekends?!!?!?! Call back monday?!?!?!

Better call a plumber, maybe he knows someone who "has one of these laying around I can get a part off of."

Fat chance slim shady; you got a better chance rolling doobies for charity than thinking the world is going to stop for one second and fix your box of wonders hanging on the wall.


Like I said, it's make-believe...

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Greg, by no means, don't let me steal your thunder big guy,

http://web.me.com/greg.saulsbury/ChosatongaSpeaks/Blog/Entries/2008/8/30_Rinnai_R74LSi_Install_2_files/IMG_0139.jpg



I'm thinking how inefficent this heater was running for 12 years while you never even thought once about maintenance,

and can imagine that was like a car with two fouled plugs AND a hole in the gas tank, at the same time.

What you wasted in efficiency will never be recouped with your tankless. Most won't let plumbing go in disrepair to the extent your available pictures are showing.

The great thing is...tankless is going to make you a responsible user of plumbing/mechanical systems because you'll never get a tankless to operate like a german tank of a tank water heater performed, period.

I'd buy a BMW too just to polish the idea I'm on a new path to efficiency.


Psst, it's mid-life crisis dude no matter what :eek:

[master plumber mark]

No one wants to have to

"pamper these things like babies"

they want someone else to pamper them,
becasue they dont have a clue and
usually .....for free....


I wonder how much energy that nasty old water heater with a blanket on it would have used all these years???

[sjsmithjr]

"We install them, we don't service them"

As a homeowner, I hadn't ever considered the possibility that I could purchase a product through an authorized installer, who obtained the product via an authorized wholesaler, and not have an authorized service technician available to work on it.

So I visited the customer support area on the Takagi website and low and behold: lot's of installers and wholesalers, but THERE IS NOT A SINGLE AUTHORIZED SERVICE TECHNICIAN IN THE STATE OF TENNESSEE. If it breaks, what is Joe Homeowner supposed to do? Fly in a technician from the one outfit in Austin that'll work on the thing? So I headed over to the Bosch website. There is only one installer/service technician in the whole state to service their tankless products! Lastly I visited the Rinnai website. There is an authorized dealer and service provider listed for Knoxville. One. Again, lots of installers, but only one outfit that is also authorized to service the product. I might add that there is no place listed for Joe Homeowner to legitimately purchase a Rinnai tankless.

So love 'em or hate 'em, I would suggest that the availability of parts, service, and the valdity of a DIY installation (if that's the way you want to go) be added that to the list of things for homeowners to check on before their purchase. I wonder what the present worth calculations would look like?

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Well I can't knock a homeowner for beating the rap of a plumber.

If it serves its purpose and doesn't kill innocent people in the process, then it shall be.

I'm not fond of people working on gas lines who have no experience dealing with these dangers.


Anyone still have that pex gas line picture? Thank god the mice didn't chew a hole in that!


Victims never know when they've gotten in over their head until it's too late. Then they talk about it.


I think there are numerous plumbers on this site that do a great job of protecting the consumer by pointing out the considerations of tankless units, and even though they don't make a public display of affection to this, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Wouldn't a plumber encourage these things ten-fold given the money that can be made installing them?

Apparently some of us care enough to throw out the safeguards, realities of these things so you DO make an informed buying decision.

Consumer Reports did some real collateral damage a few weeks ago about tankless heaters and that has the followers all bent out of whack.

This should be expected.

If I was in Arizona, Texas, anywhere where the temperature is always warm , I'd have one of these units...but only if there was parts, service techs, and the guarantee that the product will be the same 4-8-14 years from now so I don't have to buy a complete new unit after 2 years.


Take a computer, or cell phone for example; Soon as you buy the latest fad, something else is in the works to make the next one better.

[gregsauls]

Story time...

Back many years ago I was both a Compaq and Apple dealer (late 80's-early 90's). While we were authorized sales and service providers (factory trained) on both lines of computer, overnight parts was a joke. Just as Rugged has eluded to. What we did to combat that problem and be "better than the guys across town", we would stock a "hot spare" machine of the key selling machines we put out. The "hot spare" machine was not our "loaner" but rather a "sacrificial lamb" in which when we needed a part be it power supply, logic board, hard drive, etc we would take it from the "lamb" and make a customer happy that SAME day. We blew the doors off the competion as we could make a customer happy the same day or at worst the next day, something the boys across town didn't catch on to for several years.

We were not "tricking the warranty system" as we only used part from the "lamb" to repair a customer who was in warranty in the first place. The new techs got the fun job of putting the "lamb" back together each week when the warranty replacement parts arrived. Yes is cost us to have about 4-5 "lambs" in stock for this purpose but we looked at it as CODB (cost of doing business).

Why tell the story? We'll if I was in the business of selling, installing and servicing tankless water heater systems, I would standardize on ONE brand I felt good about. I would have a couple units mounted in the shop and plumbed for testing and to use as "lambs". To much hassle you say??? Naaaa, here's why. Take Rinnia... they have 8 home models, 4 indoor, 4 outdoor. Rule out the outdoor units for most of you in the northern climates. Rule out the low end R54 and possibly the R75 for the same issues and you are down to two units to service for R94 and R98. Two "lambs" for a cost of about $2000. When you go out to service a customer under factory warranty or your own extended warranty, keep track of parts and the customers serial number but use a part from your "lambs" and then get your warranty parts back in for your "lamb". And you have a customer for life!

I'm sure the pro's here may come up with a 100+ ways to shoot holes in this, but if it worked in the past, it can work again. Things are only going to get more technology based, so figuring out how to work a system rather than get beat by it is key to survival.

[Redwood]

Two thoughts...
#1 Thanks to all who visited my blog, albeit to dig up dirt or learn about your enemy. Now click on an ad so I can get revenue!

#2 Thanks for helping me up my post count. It's fun! Really! No kidding!

What makes you think I was visiting your blog

I had Tribal Flood Network doing it for me.
It won't click on your ad either!

[Redwood]

Well Greg your sacrificial lamb takes this well beyond you flogging that dead horse.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2/Redwood39/crack_pipe.jpg

I'm not going to have a flock of sheep hanging around for all the Noritz, Rinnai, Paloma, Bosch, Navien and Takagi units that malfunction in my area...
The poor owners of those units are just out of luck! They should have researched their purchase a little more!

BTW I don't fix DVD players!
I throw them in the trash and go down and spend $29.99 on a new one!

[gregsauls]

I'm not going to have a flock of sheep hanging around for all the Noritz, Rinnai, Paloma, Bosch, Navien and Takagi units that malfunction in my area...
The poor owners of those units are just out of luck! They should have researched their purchase a little more!



Jeez dude, you really can't read a WHOLE post. I didn't say buy them all. Redwood, Rugged, etal... You can't seem to have a civil conversation on here with anyone on the tankless side.

You attack me, fine. You attack my tankless install, still fine. You attack my cars, getting weird but I let it slide. You make veiled comments about divorce due to tankless problems, that a threat to my wife and begins to cross a line. What's next, looking up the kids on my blog and attacking them too. Next call will be the sheriff dude. You lie when you say you didn't look at my blog.... I have proof!

Now go crawl back under the rock you came from jerk! I'm done with you.

[gregsauls]

Psst, it's mid-life crisis dude no matter what :eek:[/SIZE][/I]


PSSSt.... you got this off my blog... So don't lie when you say you never visited it. Any more threats you wish to hurl? Hello 911....:mad:

[Redwood]

I can fix DVD players, computers, military radios. Heck I even can design electronic circuits and program computers.

Long long ago, back when there was a gaming system called the Oddessy II (shortly after pong) It came with a cartridge that let you write simple hex decimal code. Ever since I was hooked. I self taught myself basic electronics and a few programing languages. I then went into the Army as 29E which is Field radio repair, I aced the class. When I got home the electronics market was flooded with everyone wanting to be in it as well as computer programing and such. Everywhere I went for a job I was told Military training does not count I need to have a degree in electronics. I did eventually get a job in a shop designing test fixtures for an electronics shop to pretest and final test all the circuit boards they designed. Sadly I only got $6 bucks an hour. When my daughter was about to be born they only gave me a 25 cent raise, so I called my old man and told him I am coming to work for him in plumbing, and here I am.

Sorry about the tangent, but as Redwood said you will be surprised what us plumbers can do.

He He He... I did the electronics at Uncle Sam's Air Factory... Com/Nav/ECM on the planes... That's Communication/Navigation Radios, and Electronic Countermeasures... Then a couple of bad hearing tests got me off the flightline and I cross trained to plumbing...

ECM was neat stuff. The guy in the right seat of this cockpit played the music.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2/Redwood39/EF-111ARaven.jpg

The tunes he played rendered an adversary blind, deaf, & dumb...
No phones, Radio, TV, Radar. All he knows is the bombs are falling.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2/Redwood39/DFST9207581.jpg

Here is a pic of 3 invisable planes and the music man.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

PSSSt.... you got this off my blog... So don't lie when you say you never visited it. Any more threats you wish to hurl? Hello 911....:mad:



Good grief man,


It's me, RUGGED, not Redwood.


Don't shoot! DON'T SHOOT! I don't have a gun, seriously and I was at your site....how else would of I pulled that heater pic?


I was going to compliment your statement after mine about how you worked with that equipment to keep the customer happy. That is a good design and I rip apart good products at my shop to do just that; keep the customer happy and have access to parts when I readily need it...not over a period of days that can have the customer looking for a faster result.


I applaud that method but in the world of tankless right now, that could be some really expensive moves, especially if you're not putting in a lot to start with. Remember that these are 1 in a 100, 1 in a 1000 in the neighborhood for most, unless it became a group thing and an entire street followed/rode the wave.


G'd dammit the internet police are knocking on my door.


6476

[master plumber mark]

beating a dead horse again....and again...



those dumb -asses at consumer reports dont know
what the hell they are talking about....

click on the video and see for yourself

what morons..... .

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/appliances/heating-cooling-and-air/water-heaters/tankless-water-heaters/overview/tankless-water-heaters-ov.htm

[Ladiesman271]

"It will take 22 years to recoup the cost." :eek:





A tank water heater will never recover it's cost. It also can not be made in a compact size nor can it be mounted on a wall. Next thing you know, the government will mandate new water heaters efficiency and tighter "green" polution control that will make tank water heaters just as complex as some of the tankless heaters are now?








I can't wait to pull out an old tankless and open up the compartment to show people the buildup that annual delime/descaling doesn't remove.





Open up your next old water heater tank and show us what has built up inside the tank over the years.:eek::eek:

[master plumber mark]

[quote=gregsauls;182749]
I think I have come to a solution though.... put rugged, redwood, and master plumber mark on your ignore list and then you don't have to see the mindless drivel, threats, abuse, or take the anti-tankless bashing.


What did I do to light the fuse to your buttox
anyway???

honestly, all I did was post a informative video from
a bunch of idiots at consumer reports and
underwriters labs...

and everyone knows that they dont know nothing
about what they are talking about....

I actually really appreciate all the input here
from more learned souls that actually have these units.....



average guys that work at consumer reports....
http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/CLASS/130-195.jpg (http://affiliates.allposters.com/link/redirect.asp?item=847570&AID=45944632&PSTID=1&LTID=2&lang=1)



I really did not mean to hurt anyones feelings..


and I dont plan on beating the horse meat here anymore......

[Ladiesman271]

The use of pressure balanced shower valves together with a tankless water heater is not recommended by both Peerless and Delta. Symmons does not go that far, but they say there may be issues.

The bottom line seems to be that pressure balanced does not mean you end up temperature balanced. It seems that the minimum cold water flow through the valve may be too great to allow for a warm shower.

I have the old style two knob mix system, so I don't have that problem. I do know that I barely mix any cold water in with the hot when I take a shower. I will be adding a second shower in my 1/2 bath in the near future, so this could be an issue. Code requires the use of some type of an anti scald valve, and the pressure balance type seems to be a poor choice for use with a tankless water heater.


Peerless FAQ (http://www.peerlessfaucet.com/customersupport/faq/Water+Pressure/index.html)


Delta FAQ (http://www.deltafaucet.com/customersupport/faq/Water+Pressure/)


Symmons FAQ (http://www.symmons.com/Customer-Service/Product-Help/FAQs.aspx)



.

[sjsmithjr]

However, there is too much generality going on here. Specifics do matter.

I agree; the balancing criteria are many. I also agree with your opinion regarding (whole house) electric units. Those units are, in many cases, incapable of providing the necessary temperature rise and their use has prove problematic for utility companies; that is not an opinion but a fact. The availability of parts and service by an authorized provider is also a legitimate concern. In my state, I can only choose products offered by one manufacturer and must rely on one vendor if I desire sales, installation, and service. Personal choices, business models, and practices aside, I don't think any reasonable person would choose to be "held over the barrel". That, however, is an opinion.

Finally, I would like to point out that the issue regarding pressure balanced shower valves was originally pointed out by master plumber mark, a master plumber and regular poster, three days ago. Although some felt the need to repudiate his post with anecdotal evidence, his observations were factual in nature and easily verified.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Rugged, Rugged, Rugged. First of all, I'm more than a little disappointed that your not "getting it". You, as an experienced master plumber, have made a statement pertaining to observations which you have made in the course of executing your profession. That's not what we're looking for here in these heady days of ideology over fact.


Also, if someone includes a link to their blog in their signature, do not follow it. They really don't mean for you to read it.

...and stay out of the olive oil.

I'm blogging, in the blogosphere, so I can blog my way out of this.


Hold on,

I'm blogging right now as I type. Wait, incoming blog mail. It says I've been blogging too much. :p


Hi Greg,

I find you seem ta no ur stuff about them there tankless water heaters.
I means nun of these dang plumbers seem ta be able ta git the dang things ta work right an you did.
I wuz wunderin if you might be able ta help me out on my tankless project seein as ya seems ta be so smart on them.

I wanna use a tankless ta heat up my still fer makin moonshine.

These plumbers all toll me it couldn't be dun but I'm sure if anybudy could do it yawl could.

Lookin ferwards ta yur reply...

Don't pay attention ta Rugged, Redwood, and Master Plumber Mark they iz jes some mean n ornery ol plumbers that dunno Jack! I noze Jack though... My whiskey tastes bettern his...

BTW that iz a weird lookin car... Looks like some sorta furin illegal alien car...

I need wiskey too! :D to deal wit dam fire boxes awn deh wael.


A tank water heater will never recover it's cost. It also can not be made in a compact size nor can it be mounted on a wall. Next thing you know, the government will mandate new water heaters efficiency and tighter "green" polution control that will make tank water heaters just as complex as some of the tankless heaters are now?


Open up your next old water heater tank and show us what has built up inside the tank over the years.


I'll never buy the BS about water heaters taking up this "precious" space people make it out to be. Retarded on so many levels and I'll never agree that a 23" square in your home could be used for anything else than a damn closet. Just a sympathetic selling point, that's all.

Tell me about the pollution a water heater tank makes. And we already know what the inside of a tank looks like; it's look like a science experiment taking up all the room. But the diehards reading my statement right now will "keep pushing that heater along cause I got 32 years out of it, I even dust my heater since it has been so good to me." :rolleyes:

Nevermind that the efficiency the thin insulation wrapping the tank. They think they've beat the numbers and they've actually got stuck. The tankless is like reinventing the wheel all over, from the old RUUD heaters that were pressure operated with the coils that were heated.

Give it 20/30 years and it will all be tankless because technology always replaces old with new, whether we agree with it or not.




I think I have come to a solution though.... put rugged, redwood, and master plumber mark on your ignore list and then you don't have to see the mindless drivel, threats, abuse, or take the anti-tankless bashing.


What did I do to light the fuse to your buttox
anyway???

honestly, all I did was post a informative video from
a bunch of idiots at consumer reports and
underwriters labs...

and everyone knows that they dont know nothing
about what they are talking about....

I actually really appreciate all the input here
from more learned souls that actually have these units.....



average guys that work at consumer reports....




I really did not mean to hurt anyones feelings..


and I dont plan on beating the horse meat here anymore......


That's it, I'm putting you on my blog. Then you'll ask, "Why rugged always bloggin' about me?" ;)

[quote=Ladiesman271;182839]The use of pressure balanced shower valves together with a tankless water heater is not recommended by both Peerless and Delta. Symmons does not go that far, but they say there may be issues.


The bottom line seems to be that pressure balanced does not mean you end up temperature balanced. It seems that the minimum cold water flow through the valve may be too great to allow for a warm shower.

I have the old style two knob mix system, so I don't have that problem. I do know that I barely mix any cold water in with the hot when I take a shower. I will be adding a second shower in my 1/2 bath in the near future, so this could be an issue. Code requires the use of some type of an anti scald valve, and the pressure balance type seems to be a poor choice for use with a tankless water heater.


Peerless FAQ (http://www.peerlessfaucet.com/customersupport/faq/Water+Pressure/index.html)


Delta FAQ (http://www.deltafaucet.com/customersupport/faq/Water+Pressure/)


Symmons FAQ (http://www.symmons.com/Customer-Service/Product-Help/FAQs.aspx)



.


That is very destructive information to the reality of how those devices work with pressure balanced assemblies. There's no way those showering valves will ever be modified just for a tankless.

A safety issue that should never be compromised, ever.

[Redwood]

Here is what is disturbing. I, like many of you, are members of a number of other forums. For myself it runs from interest such as camping, cars, scouting, computers, and of course this DIY forum. Without any fear of generalization, this is the ONLY forum that I have seen in all my years of internet use that a few posters actually attack and belittle other NEW posters so quickly.

Only the clueless who persist in trying to spread misinformation despite being shown hard evidence to the contrary....

Greg, your only example is a tankless unit that is operating in a tankless optimum condition dream world. of course it is doing well...

Now how about the less than optimum world that the majority of the country faces?

Meanwhile I'm off to the camping forum to post about how well the Gasoline & Parafin waterproofing I applied to my canvas tent is working....:cool:

That should go over like a fart in church...

[master plumber mark]

and solutions. I am reminded of the movie "Grumpy Old Men".

Face it.... some of the "Masters" on here are not going to be swayed in the least little bit regarding the tankless issue. They will continue to attack posters, twist facts, make broad generalizations and have fun doing it at the posters expense. Ignore them and the board will be more usable.

Attention new posters. To enhance your use of this forum put master plumber mark, redwood, and rugged on your ignore list now. :D


gregsauls.....What did master plumber mark do to
light the fuse to your tampon, anyway????

Honestly, I am getting the feeling you are a tankless
salesman,

it appears that the only way you can justify your job or your choice of water heater is to mute out anyone who lays hard facts in front you

ok..you can put me on your ignore list of you so choose.

I really am happy that your tankless heater is working great, and I hope it lasts you 30 years so you an get
the pay back on it too...

[Redwood]

gregsauls.....What did master plumber mark do to
light the fuse to your tampon, anyway????

This painted a vivid picture in my mind!
Look out his gonna explode!

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2/Redwood39/tampon11.jpg

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2/Redwood39/laugh-1.gif

[CarlH]

gregsauls.....What did master plumber mark do to
light the fuse to your tampon, anyway????


I don't know. I don't think that you guys have been that bad. The point is that there are things that need to be considered before deciding to go with a tankless water heater. Perhaps after some time certain concerns will be lessened as more of these heaters are installed. Such as parts availability. These things are definitely more complex than a standard gas storage type heater, which leaves them with more potential points of failure. I'll still keep an eye on the tankless situation to see what happens as more of them are installed. I hope that Greg and the others stick around to let us know how things work out for the long term. I have a brother in San Diego that had a tankless installed recently and I will try to find out what model he has and keep tabs on how it is wokring out for him. All I know is that I have never been let down by regular gas storage type heater. Hot and cold running water is the only thing I can rely on during a power outage. Of course, I could always invest in a generator.

Are you still going to do your tankless experiment?

[master plumber mark]

Are you still going to do your tankless experiment?

Is that question being asked of me???

I started that thread about a year and a half ago, and
have all the information on how many therms a 75 gallon gas Bradford white uses per month...the meter is still chugging away.

since then I spent most of the summer cleaning up from the spring flood, so I have been very busy in REAL TIME, and I was sort of consumed with remodeling the bottom half or our home...

Therefore, I really have not been in any mood to fool with it...

Also, I sort of feel like I would be playing with perfection....and we have one bathroom at least 65 feet away from the heater going through a slab. and it already takes about a good 60 seconds to get hot water over there already....

If I get a Free or dented good sized tankless from one of my salesmen, , I might install it right next to our 75 gallon unit .....make my laundry room look like the consumer report labs...
that would stir up some more debates

then let the tampons fly......

[Dunbar Plumbing]

WARNING


The advice given by unlicensed DIY'rs on this thread or any thread on the internet PERTAINING to tankless water heaters is solely based on lack of experience, or limited experience given a short exposure to said product.

Their experience is limited, and when the purchase of the product was made, a crucial requirement of such product was immediately ignored and therefore DESTROYS THE MFG. WARRANTY, EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED.


THIS IMPORTANT INFORMATION WILL BE FOUND AT YOUR PLUMBING DIVISION OF THE STATE YOU ARE RESIDING IN, ALONG WITH MFG. REQUIREMENT


It clearly states that their product "Must be installed by a licensed plumbing contractor, and adhere to all local and national codes"


The installer of the RINNAI tankless by gregsauls on this forum has violated numerous plumbing codes by assuming the responsibility of installing a device that was meant to only be installed by someone who is properly and formerly trained to handle the task at hand.

THERE HAS BEEN NO MENTION OF A PLUMBING INSPECTION

THERE HAS BEEN NO MENTION OF ANY TESTING TO PROVE THERE ARE CORRECT PLUMBING REQUIREMENTS TO ACCEPT THIS DEVICE IN THIS STRUCTURE.

The facts are that no third party has without reward determined if this device was safely installed in this structure without the required and necessary permits, which is done solely to protect the inhabitants in the structure along with surrounding community.

I REPEAT,

THESE DEVICES ARE A WATER HEATING DEVICE THAT IF NOT INSTALLED CORRECTLY CAN POSE SERIOUS HEALTH RISKS, AND TO DO SO YOU HOLD YOURSELF PERSONALLY LIABLE FOR ANY DEATH, DESTRUCTION TO PERSONAL PROPERTY AND HARM TO OTHERS.


Installing plumbing devices such as tankless water heaters, tank water heaters should be done in accordance to comply with state and local codes, local authority.

ANY advice given on these such matters without such credentials is a potential risk given there's no culpability in the statements, and that the repercussions can be substantial.


This has been a public service announcement from someone that has installed plumbing more than once, and had to blog it and show it off because they are special.

That is all, and ladiesman,

Lay off the cogniac, it's cramping your ability to comprehend logic.

[brosnt1]

All,
I would like to tell you about my limited tankless heater experience. About a year ago I purchased and installed a Rinnai tankless water heater for my lake home in northern Minnesota. The installation was very easy and was complete in about a day and a half ( this was new construction not replacement) I have to admit I was nervous about the purchase, but I though it was the best option because when I get to the lake home I would have instant hot water. So far It has worked flawlessly, we can shower, run the washing machine and dishwasher with no problem. As for who is going to service the unit if it goes down, I didn't even give that a thought, I figure if I buy a quality product, I shouldn't have to worry about it for a while, or I'll have to fix it myself. The hot water does take 30, 40 seconds to get to the faucet, but so does my 105 gallon Marathon electric water heater in my home in MPLS. Also I have a couple of friend that have installed tankless heater from different manufacturers, and they all seem to like them. I guess I don't understand what all the fuss is about.
Just my 2 cents worth.

[jadnashua]

As has been mentioned, tankless installations can work. Whether they are the best choice is not necessarily the question. But, they, like anything, have their plusses and minuses. Sort of like the saying you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. They aren't magic...you need to understand not only how they work but what the ramifications are. While a broken washing machine may be an annoyance, a downed WH is a major pain. Know what you are getting yourself into, and your expectations and the system's capabilities, and make your decision. Many people make the wrong decision for the wrong reasons.

[nhmaster]

All,
I would like to tell you about my limited tankless heater experience. About a year ago I purchased and installed a Rinnai tankless water heater for my lake home in northern Minnesota. The installation was very easy and was complete in about a day and a half ( this was new construction not replacement) I have to admit I was nervous about the purchase, but I though it was the best option because when I get to the lake home I would have instant hot water. So far It has worked flawlessly, we can shower, run the washing machine and dishwasher with no problem. As for who is going to service the unit if it goes down, I didn't even give that a thought, I figure if I buy a quality product, I shouldn't have to worry about it for a while, or I'll have to fix it myself. The hot water does take 30, 40 seconds to get to the faucet, but so does my 105 gallon Marathon electric water heater in my home in MPLS. Also I have a couple of friend that have installed tankless heater from different manufacturers, and they all seem to like them. I guess I don't understand what all the fuss is about.
Just my 2 cents worth.

All on at the same time?

[sjsmithjr]

As for who is going to service the unit if it goes down, I didn't even give that a thought, I figure if I buy a quality product, I shouldn't have to worry about it for a while, or I'll have to fix it myself.

I'll try that on my wife next time I'm TDY and "a quality product" with no one to fix it breaks. Wait, I'm smarter than that...

I just want one DIY'er to chime in that meets all of the following criteria: 1) didn't get his/her tank/tankless at a steeply discounted price via "good buddy", bankruptcy, or online sale, 2) pulled all required permits and successfully completed the inspection process, 3) met all manufacturers conditions for full and unconditional warranty, 4) installed all components and related components in accordance with manufacturers recommendations, and 5) is not available 24/7 to fix the thing if it breaks.

If you can do that, then you've got some metrics with validity.

Guys, I DIY too but geez. :mad:

[master plumber mark]

[quote=Ladiesman271;183064]A lot of "hard facts" here are in fact generalizations that are based on plumbers "inner feelings"!


ladiesman, I did not talk about my inner feelings

all I did was post the video from consumer reports...

what has that got to do with inner feelings???

you can take the information or totally ignore it ,

I honestly dont care....http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/appliances/heating-cooling-and-air/water-heaters/tankless-water-heaters/overview/tankless-water-heaters-ov.htm


but I think you are suffering from something I call

Tankless Toxic Shock Syndrome....

you just dont know when or how it will finally strike..


one sympton of the problem..
is to completely deny the possibility of troubles till it finally breaks down....

. then come here and ask for advice on how to get it fixed..


good luck either way...
I hope you get by for a few years without problems.

[Scuba_Dave]

Well I guess after reading this thread I will never buy a tankless
I also checked our incoming water temp - after freezing my hands off in the basement washing out a paint brush

With negative & single temps its hovering around the freezing point
That's about a 90 degree rise I'd need, & probably another 200a service for tankless :eek:

[nhmaster]

Heck, even I can do that. A modern dishwasher does not use much water not does it fill at a high GPM rate. I never use hot or warm water for the wash, so the only potential issue would be the flow capacity of the main cold water feed to the house.

Besides, I don't know anyone who ever runs every hot water appliance at the same time. That argument is just a canard!


That post is proof of your ignorance on the subject. So do a bit of research before opening your flap.

READ THE DAMN CODE. You MUST provide hot water to every single fixture in the home. You can not pick and choose who will and who will not get hot water. That's why we have codes that you all seem to want to ignore. If you add up the SFU of the three fixtures they are over the maximum flow rate of the heater. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this stuff out along with delta T curves. Sure, hardly anyone ever runs both showers and the washing machine and the kitchen sink all at the same time. But if they want to they should be able to. And guess what? They can with a regular water heater and they most certainly CAN NOT with a tankless. Get over it. You made a bad decision. You are'nt saving squat. You can whine till the day you die but you ain't fooling anyone but yourself.

[nhmaster]

Now you have resorted to simply complaining about DIY water heater installations. So all of this complaining is just about money taken away from a plumbers revenue stream?

I am going to have to give your stock a downgrade to a SELL recommendation!;)

The fact that every single piece of information in Rugged's post is factual and correct means nothing to you? Only your massive ego and the desire to proove something? Why not have your wife and kids read through these threads and see how they feel about you putting their safety at risk? Or did you just slide that one on by them, depending on their faith in your self imposed abilities. You guys absolutly floor me with your arrogance and ignorance.

Get over yourself. We don't give a damn about your money. Take a second and Google the plumbers motto. That's what we care about. That's why we do what we do.

Now I am going to take Redwood's advice and put both of you on my ignore list because I am through with your childish nonsense. Go peddle your ignorance to folks that don't know any better.

[nhmaster]

Well I guess after reading this thread I will never buy a tankless
I also checked our incoming water temp - after freezing my hands off in the basement washing out a paint brush

With negative & single temps its hovering around the freezing point
That's about a 90 degree rise I'd need, & probably another 200a service for tankless :eek:


A decision you will never regret my friend.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Now you have resorted to simply complaining about DIY water heater installations. So all of this complaining is just about money taken away from a plumbers revenue stream?

I am going to have to give your stock a downgrade to a SELL recommendation!;)



I could care less how much work is lost to DIY'rs. There's always going to be job security for me when everyone on the weekend trys to be a plumber.

I DIY also but I'm not going to do something one time and tell everyone I know all.

There's plenty of work for aaaaaaallll of us. I just got a call to work on an American water heater, aka craftmaster aka whirlpool.

It was bought from a supply house, it's the identical one you see at Lowe's. Lady was getting on my nerves and told her to call somebody else, you're killing me.

I'm off this weekend till the phone rings.

CHA-CHING! BOO-YAH!

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Heck, even I can do that. A modern dishwasher does not use much water not does it fill at a high GPM rate. I never use hot or warm water for the wash, so the only potential issue would be the flow capacity of the main cold water feed to the house.

Besides, I don't know anyone who ever runs every hot water appliance at the same time. That argument is just a canard!


Give me a break, Is your name Barney, Fred? Livin' like the Flintstones?

Very common for homes with large families to run numerous fixtures at the same time.


Called multi-tasking around a work life and kids. Washing machine running during the time you're home, dishwasher running after supper and time for showers before bed.

Tell Wilma she's HAWT for me will ya?!

[Scuba_Dave]

Originally Posted by Ladiesman271 http://www.terrylove.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?p=183165#post183165)
Besides, I don't know anyone who ever runs every hot water appliance at the same time. That argument is just a canard!


Tell THAT to my wife!!! We have no canard

[Ladiesman271]

[quote=Ladiesman271;183064]A lot of "hard facts" here are in fact generalizations that are based on plumbers "inner feelings"!


ladiesman, I did not talk about my inner feelings

all I did was post the video from consumer reports...

what has that got to do with inner feelings???

you can take the information or totally ignore it ,

I honestly dont care....http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/appliances/heating-cooling-and-air/water-heaters/tankless-water-heaters/overview/tankless-water-heaters-ov.htm


but I think you are suffering from something I call

Tankless Toxic Shock Syndrome....

you just dont know when or how it will finally strike..


one sympton of the problem..
is to completely deny the possibility of troubles till it finally breaks down....

. then come here and ask for advice on how to get it fixed..


good luck either way...
I hope you get by for a few years without problems.





Tank type water heaters are very unsafe. Full of germs and other nasty tidbits.

Since you mentioned something related to the cost of "proper" maintenance of tankless water heaters, here is a discussion about the "proper" maintenance of a tank type water heater.


http://www.nashville.gov/water/splash/h2o_heater.htm



Water heater maintenance

Water heaters, whether gas or electric, have become more complex and expensive. They also do not seem to last as long as they once did. This is one modern appliance that we couldn't live without, but is "out of sight, out of mind" until we have problems with it.


Hot water heater flushing

Maintenance books recommend that the hot water heater be drained (flushed) every six months, but few homeowners bother to do this. Often, it is put in an area that is not as accessible as other appliances. It may or may not be easy to drain, even though all heaters have a hose connection and faucet control at the bottom. This task is not only inconvenient, but often the washer and/or washer seat on the faucet must be replaced after draining. Sometimes the entire faucet assembly will have to be replaced. If this is not done correctly, the unit may leak at the faucet. Furthermore, the unit can be damaged while drained. Unless the customer is fully familiar with servicing these units, one should consult their service representatives at the gas or electric utility before undertaking these tasks.


Odors

A heater which is recycled off/on or left off for a period of non-heating may develop offensive odors from sulfur bacteria. The odor is hydrogen sulfide -- "rotten egg odor." This odorous water may be drawn back through cold water faucets as well as the hot water faucet.


Temperature settings

The heater thermostat should be set at a reasonable temperature. Scalding of infants and the elderly can be a real hazard, even when the temperature setting is within proper limits. Again, the user should consult with their energy supplier to have the unit set at a safe temperature.


DO NOT USE HOT WATER FROM THE TAP FOR DRINKING OR COOKING!

Because warm/hot water is much more corrosive of metals than cold water, one should not use the hot water tap as a source for drinking, cooking or dilution of infant formula. It can be high in metals such as aluminum, iron, lead, copper and zinc. The heater tank also tends to concentrate these metals and precipitate them in layers inside the heater tank. Many tanks have a metal "sacrificial anode." This is designed to wear down and can be an additional source of metals. While it may be a convenient shortcut, water from the heater is not an approved source of drinking water.


White plastic particles

It is not unusual for the white plastic (PVC) filler tube inside the heater to disintegrate and discharge small white particles to the faucet aerator screens. These particles can come through not only the hot water lines but the cold water lines as well. These particles may appear to be soft and crumbly, but a good test is to heat this material with a match. PVC will melt; minerals, such as calcium, will not.

[Ladiesman271]

Health hazards from a tank type water heater!

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2094925



"There are two opposing risks when it comes to water temperature inside domestic water heaters; exposure to Legionella, the bacteria responsible for Legionnaires’ disease (pulmonary legionellosis), and the risk of scalding. In 1986, this dilemma was the subject of an editorial in the Canadian Medical Association Journal (1). A few months ago, Safe Kids Canada launched a media campaign aimed at preventing scalding by lowering domestic hot water temperature to 49°C at the tap (2). Among the means considered to reach this objective, Safe Kids Canada, with the support of some public health organizations, suggests and seems to favour lowering the temperature setting of domestic hot water heaters to 49°C."

"Like other authors (3,4), including the World Health Organization (WHO) who published a recent monograph on the Legionella problem in drinking water (3), we believe that there is evidence for the transmission of legionellosis through the drinking water distribution systems in private homes. This is a serious illness associated with high death rates (up to 12%). Primary groups at risk (the elderly, smokers, the immunocompromised and patients suffering from chronic respiratory illnesses), are groups who include a large proportion of the population at home. Although we support prevention against tap water scalds, we are against setting water heater thermostats at 49°C because we believe this could facilitate proliferation of Legionella inside the tank and increase the risk of legionellosis."




More of the same here:

http://customer.honeywell.com/WaterControl/Cultures/en-US/Prevention/Legionella+in+Your+Home/Problem.htm


Key Facts

According to the CDC, Legionella bacteria has a broad range of potential growth. “Legionella bacteria exist in the biofilm on the inside of pipes. Legionella grows rapidly between 77°F and 108°F.” Although it may seem feasible to raise the water temperature to 140°F, this leaves the water in the scald temperature range.” (22)



The International Plumbing Code Section 424.4: states, “Shower and tub/shower combination valves shall be balanced pressure, thermostatic, or a combination of balanced pressure/thermostatic valves that conform to the requirements of ASSE 1016 or CSA B125. Valves shall be equipped with a means to limit the maximum setting of the valve to 120°F, which shall be field adjustable in accordance with the manufacturers’ instructions.” (22)



“When a residential water heater is used, the codes do not limit the temperature to 140F, so it is not uncommon to find water at 160 degrees F.” This temperature will scald a child with third-degree burns in only .25 seconds. (22)



How common is Legionella bacteria in my hot water tank?

“In Quebec, a study of 211 homes (178 electric water heaters, 33 oil or gas water heaters) found Legionella contamination in 40% of electric water heaters. No water heaters using fossil fuels were contaminated. The authors concluded that, because of design variables, use of an electric water heater was the most significant factor leading to Legionella contamination in hot water in the home.” (28)



What are the affects?

Occurrences of Legionellosis have happened while people have been exposed to a infected water source and inhaled contaminated water: cooling towers, whirlpools, bathtubs, showers or even at a steamy faucet. Legionella has been shown to most greatly affect people whose immune system is low. For example in a hospital setting, patients that are most susceptible to Legionella infection include: cancer patients who are in radiation or chemotherapy treatments, organ-transplants, HIV, elderly and surgical patients. Severe Legionnaires’ disease has an overall mortality rate of 10% to 30% (1-3), and 30% to 50% of patients require admission to an intensive care unit (1-4) Additional source: Center for Disease Control and Prevention






.

[sjsmithjr]

We too have no canard, but my wife the English teacher does like duck. The English language is a funny thing isn't it? Take the word provide. One who is fluent in plumbing codes will understand the contextural meaning while one who is not might easily misunderstand what is being said.

[nhmaster]

We too have no canard, but my wife the English teacher does like duck. The English language is a funny thing isn't it? Take the word provide. One who is fluent in plumbing codes will understand the contextural meaning while one who is not might easily misunderstand what is being said.


He is apparantly better at finding obscure meanings than defending his views.

What is so hard to understand about having to provide hot water ( 110-130 depending on your code) to every fixture at the same time? It's not "MY" code. It is the code. But like most diy hacks he refuses to obey the code and feels that "his" situation is different and therefore justifiable. No amount of cajoling (big word) or logical argument will sway him from his convictions. It's a lot like arguing with a racist skin head. WASTE OF TIME.

[gregsauls]

Ladiesman, you like I have hot water at every fixture and it is provided by our respective tankless water heaters. Therefore, we met the code of providing hot water to every fixture in the house, simultaniously to all fixtures I might add. In fact, I used hot water off my tankless this morning to powerwash an engine block I am working on for an old 944 Porsche. That was great!!!

As a homeowner in Texas and outside any city limits, I am allowed to do this install and most any other repair or improvement to MY home without any need to pull permits. The gas company did inspect of my gas line when I changed the "T" from 1/2" to 3/4". They found a problem with THEIR line at the street at the same time and fixed it. It's good to have a scouting friend that works for Centerpoint.

Ready to take the "ignore" advice? It really works as you don't have to listen to the nitwhits babble on....:D

[Scuba_Dave]

Another homeowner tricked into the dark side


I had a tankless Rinaii water heater installed in a house just built. It is located about 60 feet from the farthest fixture.
When I open a faucet or try to fill the tub it takes forever for the water to get hot.
I am wasting gallons of water waiting.
What can be done so that all the fixtures in the house get instant hot water?

The house a full basement with the pipes in the ceiling exposed.
Suggestions and advise is appreciated.

[nhmaster]

Ignorance of the law is no excuse and the plumbing codes are LAW. Whether or not you believe it YOU ALWAYS NEED A PERMIT AND AN INSPECTION by the plumbing or building inspector to screw with the plumbing and water piping, and water heaters are PLUMBING. If you want me to contact your local code official and ask him I will be glad to do that for you. Again, the fact that you are more than happy to put your home, life and lives of your family at risk because you somehow think you are qualified to plumb without a license is beyond reproach. By not getting a permit and an inspection you have broken the law and are a criminal. If (god forbid) something should crop up and personal or property damage should occur due to your installation your insurance company will drop you like a hot potato, and there is a good chance you will be held liable in court. There is a damn good reason why we license plumbers in this country as well as doctors, lawyers, engineers ect. It's to keep cowboys like you from killing people. Furthermore I'll bet you a years pay there's no way in hell you can open up every hot water faucet in the house and get your 60 degree rise for any lenght of time. Bath tub 4gpm, dishwasher 2.75, shower 3, sink 2.5, water closet 3, automatic clothes washer 3.

Add em up slick.

Better yet, keep on spewing that "we never use all of em at the same time and it's stupid to base the code on that" line. Stupid or not, it's the code. The FACT is that in 90% of all cases a tankless water heater will not strictly meet the plumbing code requirements. That some local inspectors don't want to enforce it is thier problem and will become a huge problem for the inspector if someone brings forth a lawsuit.

[brosnt1]

Gregsauls,
It's a model R53.

I know what you mean, I think it's intimidation and insecurity. If it can't be fixed with a pipe wrench, they are lost. Any new technology, anything from the Europeans, or anything that take away their bread and butter i.e. pex, studor valves, they don't like. I was talking to the plumbers at work, and they have to use these new copper fittings that have an o-ring and are crimped instead of soldered. They told me they don't like them because it is just another lost skill for their profession.

[nhmaster]

Even if you take the toilet out of the picture (and I admit the error) you are still at 13 gpm. So how's that work slick?

How you going to defend that intelligently?

I'm waiting to read just one single, coherent, intelligent defense of the facts. Remembering that the plumbing codes are not a suggestion and they are to be strictly adhered to. I'm sure is pisses you cowboys off that there are actually laws governing who's life and property you can and can't put at jeopardy, but unfortunalty for you, that is the country we live in. Now if you want to move to Mexico or some other 3rd world nation where they don't give a crap, by all means board the next plane.

[Billy Mays]

[QUOTE=master plumber mark;183189]





Tank type water heaters are very unsafe. Full of germs and other nasty tidbits.

Since you mentioned something related to the cost of "proper" maintenance of tankless water heaters, here is a discussion about the "proper" maintenance of a tank type water heater.


http://www.nashville.gov/water/splash/h2o_heater.htm



Water heater maintenance

Water heaters, whether gas or electric, have become more complex and expensive. They also do not seem to last as long as they once did. This is one modern appliance that we couldn't live without, but is "out of sight, out of mind" until we have problems with it.


Hot water heater flushing

Maintenance books recommend that the hot water heater be drained (flushed) every six months, but few homeowners bother to do this. Often, it is put in an area that is not as accessible as other appliances. It may or may not be easy to drain, even though all heaters have a hose connection and faucet control at the bottom. This task is not only inconvenient, but often the washer and/or washer seat on the faucet must be replaced after draining. Sometimes the entire faucet assembly will have to be replaced. If this is not done correctly, the unit may leak at the faucet. Furthermore, the unit can be damaged while drained. Unless the customer is fully familiar with servicing these units, one should consult their service representatives at the gas or electric utility before undertaking these tasks.


Odors

A heater which is recycled off/on or left off for a period of non-heating may develop offensive odors from sulfur bacteria. The odor is hydrogen sulfide -- "rotten egg odor." This odorous water may be drawn back through cold water faucets as well as the hot water faucet.


Temperature settings

The heater thermostat should be set at a reasonable temperature. Scalding of infants and the elderly can be a real hazard, even when the temperature setting is within proper limits. Again, the user should consult with their energy supplier to have the unit set at a safe temperature.


DO NOT USE HOT WATER FROM THE TAP FOR DRINKING OR COOKING!

Because warm/hot water is much more corrosive of metals than cold water, one should not use the hot water tap as a source for drinking, cooking or dilution of infant formula. It can be high in metals such as aluminum, iron, lead, copper and zinc. The heater tank also tends to concentrate these metals and precipitate them in layers inside the heater tank. Many tanks have a metal "sacrificial anode." This is designed to wear down and can be an additional source of metals. While it may be a convenient shortcut, water from the heater is not an approved source of drinking water.


White plastic particles

It is not unusual for the white plastic (PVC) filler tube inside the heater to disintegrate and discharge small white particles to the faucet aerator screens. These particles can come through not only the hot water lines but the cold water lines as well. These particles may appear to be soft and crumbly, but a good test is to heat this material with a match. PVC will melt; minerals, such as calcium, will not.



Just clean it! With Oxy-Clean! Hey I'm pointing at you!!

[Billy Mays]

Even if you take the toilet out of the picture (and I admit the error) you are still at 13 gpm. So how's that work slick?

How you going to defend that intelligently?

I'm waiting to read just one single, coherent, intelligent defense of the facts. Remembering that the plumbing codes are not a suggestion and they are to be strictly adhered to. I'm sure is pisses you cowboys off that there are actually laws governing who's life and property you can and can't put at jeopardy, but unfortunalty for you, that is the country we live in. Now if you want to move to Mexico or some other 3rd world nation where they don't give a crap, by all means board the next plane.


Just fix it! With Mighty Mend it!

[Billy Mays]

A toilet that needs hot water??? What are you smoking? Bidet maybe is what you tried to type? Guess nhmaster gets added to the ignore list. Just more FUD


In the car or at the bar, you need Mighty Putty!

[sjsmithjr]

I'm waiting to read just one single, coherent, intelligent defense of the facts.

Do you have to be a plumber to get a duct tape helmet? I'd kinda like to have one too.:D

[nhmaster]

Do you have to be a plumber to get a duct tape helmet? I'd kinda like to have one too.:D


Nope, you can make your own. Or maybe you can get one from------->


Billy Mays !

[gregsauls]

Even if you take the toilet out of the picture (and I admit the error) you are still at 13 gpm. So how's that work slick?

How you going to defend that intelligently?

I'm waiting to read just one single, coherent, intelligent defense of the facts.

brosnt1,
it's interesting to hear that an R53 can work in those cold clims. I wouldn't have guessed it due to water inlet temp. I told you "they" would jump you within 48 hours... only took "them" 24! Put them on ignore and life is good here. Surprised mngmt allows this to happen so easily.

Others:
Just "happened" to have every hot water appliance in my house running as of about 30 minites ago. Rinnai R75 display said water flow was 6.3gpm with every fixture in use, sure inlet water temp is about 56 degrees today. No problems there skippy. Woohoo, codes met! But then again it's 73 degrees here in Texas and I got to drop the top to the Z3 and enjoy the fresh air. :cool:

[gregsauls]

Not sure who is having more fun stirring the pot, us or them. Looks like them !

http://www.thenewstyle.org/hernandez/blogstuff/toilet_doo.jpg

[sjsmithjr]

Just "happened" to have every hot water appliance in my house running as of about 30 minites ago. Rinnai R75 display said water flow was 6.3gpm with every fixture in use, sure inlet water temp is about 56 degrees today. No problems there skippy. Woohoo, codes met!

I hate to break it to you, but even assuming a modest load of one shower, one clothes washer, one dishwasher, one lav faucet, and one kitchen faucet, you didn't meet code. Do you know why?:confused:

[nhmaster]

Not worth the argument my friend. The guy and his friend are unable to back up their wild claims with anything other than useless and unfounded information. They make everything bigger in Texas including ......

[nhmaster]

brosnt1,
it's interesting to hear that an R53 can work in those cold clims. I wouldn't have guessed it due to water inlet temp. I told you "they" would jump you within 48 hours... only took "them" 24! Put them on ignore and life is good here. Surprised mngmt allows this to happen so easily.

Others:
Just "happened" to have every hot water appliance in my house running as of about 30 minites ago. Rinnai R75 display said water flow was 6.3gpm with every fixture in use, sure inlet water temp is about 56 degrees today. No problems there skippy. Woohoo, codes met! But then again it's 73 degrees here in Texas and I got to drop the top to the Z3 and enjoy the fresh air. :cool:

Remember my friend, these forums are to educate and help folks make an informed decision. The out and out misinformation, misdirection and lies from you and your cohort are anything but helpfull. They probably won't allow it to go on much longer. I expect Mark to close this down at any time as well he should.

[Ladiesman271]

He is apparantly better at finding obscure meanings than defending his views.

What is so hard to understand about having to provide hot water ( 110-130 depending on your code) to every fixture at the same time? It's not "MY" code. It is the code. But like most diy hacks he refuses to obey the code and feels that "his" situation is different and therefore justifiable. No amount of cajoling (big word) or logical argument will sway him from his convictions. It's a lot like arguing with a racist skin head. WASTE OF TIME.



Q: What is so hard to understand about having to provide hot water ( 110-130 depending on your code) to every fixture at the same time?

A: What is the test per "your code? Pressure and volume requirements? All fixtures on full blast simultaneously? Adequate for the use intended requirement? Just what does "your" code require?


This is the United States of America. There is no United States of America plumbing code. The plumbing code of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts applies to me, so that is my plumbing code. If you do not live in Massachusetts, you have to use "your" own applicable plumbing code.

The Massachusets plumbing code does not specify that you have to simultaneously test all fixtures turned to full volume. The only thing specified is the main water pipe size that is based on fixture demand factors and the building ulilization factor. Minimum pipe sizes for each fixture type are also specified.

I have hot water at every hot water fixture in my home. Flow rates are adequate for the intended use.


MA plumbing code trivia: A bidet requires a backflow device in the water supply. A dishwashing machine drain line is only required to have a high loop (AKA no air gap required). Plumbers not licensed as a plumber in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts are not permitted to refer to any plumbing codes that do not apply to Massachusetts residents MGL Section 8.

Water pipe sizing (http://www.terrylove.com/watersize.htm)



Water Pipe Sizing example taken from the Massachusetts Plumbing Code. The Massachsetts Plumbing Code is followed in Massachusetts. "Your" code may be different, but it does not apply to property located in Massachusetts!


http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv32/Ladiesman271-2009/MA_Plumbing_Code_Pipe_Sizing-1.jpg

[Ladiesman271]

Remember my friend, these forums are to educate and help folks make an informed decision. The out and out misinformation, misdirection and lies from you and your cohort are anything but helpfull. They probably won't allow it to go on much longer. I expect Mark to close this down at any time as well he should.


Another prevarication!

Simply put, my gas tankless water heater is specified to provide 2.09 GPM with a 90 degree temperature rise.

The coldest my incoming water has been is 40 degrees F.

The highest temperature of hot water allowed by the Massachusetts Plumbing code is 130 degrees F.

40 degrees incoming water temperature plus a 90 degree F temperature rise equals 130 degrees F.

The above meets the volume of hot water required for the intended use based on the lowest yearly incoming water temperatures provided to this residence (AKA winter season low).

Water pipe sizing (http://www.terrylove.com/watersize.htm)



Water pipe Sizing example that conforms to the MA Plumbing Code


Massachusetts Plumbing Code (http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv32/Ladiesman271-2009/MA_Plumbing_Code_Pipe_Sizing-1.jpg)


.

[nhmaster]

How can I possibly argue with your brilliance. You are of course correct in every way and me, a licensed master plumber for 36 years, A plumbers apprentice teacher as well as a certified plumbers certification instructor has absolutly no idea what I am talking about.

Let's go through this one last time.

You have to provide continuous flow at continuous temperature to ALL FIXTURES, AT THE SAME TIME. Yes, Yes you do. Call the plumbing board. Ask them. They will tell you and you will still freekin argue the point. You can not have a residence where fixtures can only be run one or two at a time. Nor can the temperature at the fixtures fluctuate due to increased or decreased load. Yes Wally. That's what they pay us the big bucks for. Just because you bought into a load of crap don't make it so.

[SewerRatz]

It always amazes me when people quote parts of the plumbing code and leave out other parts, or misquote it. For example I always hear "I live in southern Illinois we are not required to follow the plumbing code." or " We can do our own plumbing here with out getting permits or hiring a licensed plumber." No where in the Illinois code it says if you live in some rural area that you are allowed to do plumbing yourself or the way you feel is the right way. You may not have a permit office with the town you live in but the county does, and if they don't I bet the state does.

Other excuse I hear for not getting permits. " They only want to get more money from me. In reality I do not need a permit if I do the work myself." Again that is not true, they want you to get a permit so they can inspect the job and ensure it was put in a professional, proper and safe manor. There is a city here that requires you to get permits and requires you to have a licensed plumber and does not charge a dime for the permit.

I do get many phone calls of DIY's and handymen asking me if I can get the permit or let them use my license number so they can get a permit, and they will pay me a "fee". This is against the law as well. I refuse to put my license on the line like that.

As for the good of tankless water heaters and the idea they save space. It is all hype. When they first came out , the hype was "In Europe they are very commen. The US is so far behind technolgy." In Europe lots of people live in small homes or row homes that do not afford a lot of space for a tank, thats why they have a tankless unit hanging on their kitchen wall. Tankless water heaters properly sized can work and will work propelry sizing does not mean buying the biggest one and assumeing it will supply you all your hot water needs. In many cases in areas where the temputare rise is 70 degrees or higher you may need two tanks, and if the flow rate demand is to high for two units you may have to go to three units. About flow rates, when a home is built in any state and all states follow one of the three major codes out there which all require a minum presure during peak demand in the home.

Here is the one from Illinois:

Section 890.1210 Design of a Building Water Distribution System




a)Design and Installation. The design and installation of the hot and cold water building distribution systems shall provide a volume of water at the required rates and pressures to ensure the safe, efficient and satisfactory operation of fixtures, fittings, appliances and other connected devices during periods of peak use. No distribution pipe or pipes shall be installed or permitted outside of a building or in an exterior wall unless provisions are made to protect such pipe from freezing, including but not limited to wrap-on insulation or heat tape tracer line or wire.



b) Size of Water Distribution Pipes. The fixture supply for each fixture shall be at least the minimum size provided in Appendix A, Table D. The size of all other water distribution pipes shall be determined by calculating the water supply demand (in water supply fixture units) for that portion of the water distribution system served by the pipe. Using Appendix A, Tables M, N, O, P and Q, the cumulative water supply demand or load shall be calculated for all fixtures, piping, valves and fittings served by the water distribution pipe, and the pipe shall meet the minimum size provided in Appendix A, Table N or O, as applicable. Exception: As an alternative to using Tables M, N, O, P and Q to design and size the piping in the water distribution system, the system may be designed and sized employing current engineering practices, provided the design/plans are approved in writing by an Illinois licensed professional engineer, an Illinois licensed architect or an individual Certified in Plumbing Engineering (C.I.P.E.) by the American Society of Plumbing Engineers and approved in writing by the Department.



c) Minimum Water Pressure. The minimum constant water service pressure on the discharge side of the water meter shall be (at least) 20 p.s.i.; and the minimum constant water pressure at each fixture shall be at least 8 p.s.i. or the minimum recommended by the fixture manufacturer.

[nhmaster]

Good post and points, but it will surely be ignored.

Another thing about European plumbing is that often those small row houses have only a single bath and small kitchen. Codes in Europe are less strict also.

This whole argument has just plain reached the point of stupid. Untill the plumbing inspector knocks on their door both of these guys are going to continue spewing the same uneducated propaganda.

[Redwood]

Another prevarication!

Simply put, my gas tankless water heater is specified to provide 2.09 GPM with a 90 degree temperature rise.

The coldest my incoming water has been is 40 degrees F.

The highest temperature of hot water allowed by the Massachusetts Plumbing code is 130 degrees F.

40 degrees incoming water temperature plus a 90 degree F temperature rise equals 130 degrees F.

The above meets the volume of hot water required for the intended use based on the lowest yearly incoming water temperatures provided to this residence (AKA winter season low).

Laddyman,
Are you a licensed plumber in the state of Mass?
Was your installation performed by you in the state of mass?

[Redwood]

Tank type water heaters are very unsafe. Full of germs and other nasty tidbits.

Since you mentioned something related to the cost of "proper" maintenance of tankless water heaters, here is a discussion about the "proper" maintenance of a tank type water heater.

http://www.nashville.gov/water/splash/h2o_heater.htm

Water heater maintenance

Water heaters, whether gas or electric, have become more complex and expensive. They also do not seem to last as long as they once did. This is one modern appliance that we couldn't live without, but is "out of sight, out of mind" until we have problems with it.

Hot water heater flushing

Maintenance books recommend that the hot water heater be drained (flushed) every six months, but few homeowners bother to do this. Often, it is put in an area that is not as accessible as other appliances. It may or may not be easy to drain, even though all heaters have a hose connection and faucet control at the bottom. This task is not only inconvenient, but often the washer and/or washer seat on the faucet must be replaced after draining. Sometimes the entire faucet assembly will have to be replaced. If this is not done correctly, the unit may leak at the faucet. Furthermore, the unit can be damaged while drained. Unless the customer is fully familiar with servicing these units, one should consult their service representatives at the gas or electric utility before undertaking these tasks.

Odors

A heater which is recycled off/on or left off for a period of non-heating may develop offensive odors from sulfur bacteria. The odor is hydrogen sulfide -- "rotten egg odor." This odorous water may be drawn back through cold water faucets as well as the hot water faucet.

Temperature settings

The heater thermostat should be set at a reasonable temperature. Scalding of infants and the elderly can be a real hazard, even when the temperature setting is within proper limits. Again, the user should consult with their energy supplier to have the unit set at a safe temperature.

DO NOT USE HOT WATER FROM THE TAP FOR DRINKING OR COOKING!

Because warm/hot water is much more corrosive of metals than cold water, one should not use the hot water tap as a source for drinking, cooking or dilution of infant formula. It can be high in metals such as aluminum, iron, lead, copper and zinc. The heater tank also tends to concentrate these metals and precipitate them in layers inside the heater tank. Many tanks have a metal "sacrificial anode." This is designed to wear down and can be an additional source of metals. While it may be a convenient shortcut, water from the heater is not an approved source of drinking water.

White plastic particles

It is not unusual for the white plastic (PVC) filler tube inside the heater to disintegrate and discharge small white particles to the faucet aerator screens. These particles can come through not only the hot water lines but the cold water lines as well. These particles may appear to be soft and crumbly, but a good test is to heat this material with a match. PVC will melt; minerals, such as calcium, will not.

Laddy Man,

You really reached deep up beyond your spincter muscle to pull out this batch of brilliance...

Flushing is required on tankless as well as tank type water heaters...

The odors you mention are caused by sulfur reducing bacteria. The locations these bacteria can set up shop is not limited to tank type water heaters. Wells and even faucets may have a odorous bacteria colony set up a home.

Water that has been heated has had its mineral content precipitated out of it and like RO water is hungry in terms of aggressiveness. It will even leach lead out of pre lead free solder joints... Your tankless is included in this aggresiveness. BTW RO water is a highly desired drinking water...

White plastic particles?? Put down the crack pipe Laddy! Snap out of it! For several years in the 90's water heaters by many manufacturers were made with a defective dip tub installed in them. All persons who had water heaters with this problem were notified as required by law of a class action lawsuit and last date for filing claims for relief under the settlement agreement was December 31, 2000.

[Redwood]

Health hazards from a tank type water heater!

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2094925

"There are two opposing risks when it comes to water temperature inside domestic water heaters; exposure to Legionella, the bacteria responsible for Legionnaires’ disease (pulmonary legionellosis), and the risk of scalding. In 1986, this dilemma was the subject of an editorial in the Canadian Medical Association Journal (1). A few months ago, Safe Kids Canada launched a media campaign aimed at preventing scalding by lowering domestic hot water temperature to 49°C at the tap (2). Among the means considered to reach this objective, Safe Kids Canada, with the support of some public health organizations, suggests and seems to favour lowering the temperature setting of domestic hot water heaters to 49°C."

"Like other authors (3,4), including the World Health Organization (WHO) who published a recent monograph on the Legionella problem in drinking water (3), we believe that there is evidence for the transmission of legionellosis through the drinking water distribution systems in private homes. This is a serious illness associated with high death rates (up to 12%). Primary groups at risk (the elderly, smokers, the immunocompromised and patients suffering from chronic respiratory illnesses), are groups who include a large proportion of the population at home. Although we support prevention against tap water scalds, we are against setting water heater thermostats at 49°C because we believe this could facilitate proliferation of Legionella inside the tank and increase the risk of legionellosis."

More of the same here:

http://customer.honeywell.com/WaterControl/Cultures/en-US/Prevention/Legionella+in+Your+Home/Problem.htm

Key Facts

According to the CDC, Legionella bacteria has a broad range of potential growth. “Legionella bacteria exist in the biofilm on the inside of pipes. Legionella grows rapidly between 77°F and 108°F.” Although it may seem feasible to raise the water temperature to 140°F, this leaves the water in the scald temperature range.” (22)

The International Plumbing Code Section 424.4: states, “Shower and tub/shower combination valves shall be balanced pressure, thermostatic, or a combination of balanced pressure/thermostatic valves that conform to the requirements of ASSE 1016 or CSA B125. Valves shall be equipped with a means to limit the maximum setting of the valve to 120°F, which shall be field adjustable in accordance with the manufacturers’ instructions.” (22)

“When a residential water heater is used, the codes do not limit the temperature to 140F, so it is not uncommon to find water at 160 degrees F.” This temperature will scald a child with third-degree burns in only .25 seconds. (22)

How common is Legionella bacteria in my hot water tank?

“In Quebec, a study of 211 homes (178 electric water heaters, 33 oil or gas water heaters) found Legionella contamination in 40% of electric water heaters. No water heaters using fossil fuels were contaminated. The authors concluded that, because of design variables, use of an electric water heater was the most significant factor leading to Legionella contamination in hot water in the home.” (28)

What are the affects?

Occurrences of Legionellosis have happened while people have been exposed to a infected water source and inhaled contaminated water: cooling towers, whirlpools, bathtubs, showers or even at a steamy faucet. Legionella has been shown to most greatly affect people whose immune system is low. For example in a hospital setting, patients that are most susceptible to Legionella infection include: cancer patients who are in radiation or chemotherapy treatments, organ-transplants, HIV, elderly and surgical patients. Severe Legionnaires’ disease has an overall mortality rate of 10% to 30% (1-3), and 30% to 50% of patients require admission to an intensive care unit (1-4) Additional source: Center for Disease Control and Prevention.

Now you have really outdone yourself in your twisting of facts and information resources. Your post is so full of incoherant ramblings of quoted misapplied information that a person reasonably educated could hardly understand it.

I propose that we bestow the title of "Google Boy" upon you.

This is a title that we give to those with a total lack of subject knowledge that manage to post "copy & paste" a long post that looks very knowledgable on the surface until a knowledgable person attempts to read the assembled drivel.

Simply put Legionella Bacteria is present in water. Usually in small quantities that have a miniscule chance of causing a problem. When water is stored at a temperature in the ideal growth range the small amount present can multiply.

The use of a tankless water heater will not do anything to the bacteria to kill it and infact if there is a recirculation system may keep it in the ideal growth range just like a tank type water heater.

The solution is simple for a tank type water heater and that is to raise the temperature in the tank to 140 degrees where the Legionella Bacteria will be killed then youe a tempering valve on the outlet to lower the temperature to 120 degrees for safe use.

There it is a few simple paragraphs that said more than all the drivel you posted...
Could it be that I know my subject matter and am qualified to post about it?

[Cass]

The county above me now requires the tank heaters to be set at 140 and have a tempering valve installed just like you said...they have been doing this for 2 years now...

Plumbers in Lebanon Ohio (http://www.psbl.com/plumbingassociates/)

[nhmaster]

Cass, when did Ohio adopt that ammendment? It has been floating around here for a couple years but has not yet come to an agreement. I personally think it is a good idea and anyone that has seen the video that Watts puts out would probably be in the same camp also.

[Ladiesman271]

It always amazes me when people quote parts of the plumbing code and leave out other parts, or misquote it. For example I always hear "I live in southern Illinois we are not required to follow the plumbing code." or " We can do our own plumbing here with out getting permits or hiring a licensed plumber." No where in the Illinois code it says if you live in some rural area that you are allowed to do plumbing yourself or the way you feel is the right way. You may not have a permit office with the town you live in but the county does, and if they don't I bet the state does.

Other excuse I hear for not getting permits. " They only want to get more money from me. In reality I do not need a permit if I do the work myself." Again that is not true, they want you to get a permit so they can inspect the job and ensure it was put in a professional, proper and safe manor. There is a city here that requires you to get permits and requires you to have a licensed plumber and does not charge a dime for the permit.

I do get many phone calls of DIY's and handymen asking me if I can get the permit or let them use my license number so they can get a permit, and they will pay me a "fee". This is against the law as well. I refuse to put my license on the line like that.

As for the good of tankless water heaters and the idea they save space. It is all hype. When they first came out , the hype was "In Europe they are very commen. The US is so far behind technolgy." In Europe lots of people live in small homes or row homes that do not afford a lot of space for a tank, thats why they have a tankless unit hanging on their kitchen wall. Tankless water heaters properly sized can work and will work propelry sizing does not mean buying the biggest one and assumeing it will supply you all your hot water needs. In many cases in areas where the temputare rise is 70 degrees or higher you may need two tanks, and if the flow rate demand is to high for two units you may have to go to three units. About flow rates, when a home is built in any state and all states follow one of the three major codes out there which all require a minum presure during peak demand in the home.

Here is the one from Illinois:

Section 890.1210 Design of a Building Water Distribution System



a)Design and Installation. The design and installation of the hot and cold water building distribution systems shall provide a volume of water at the required rates and pressures to ensure the safe, efficient and satisfactory operation of fixtures, fittings, appliances and other connected devices during periods of peak use. No distribution pipe or pipes shall be installed or permitted outside of a building or in an exterior wall unless provisions are made to protect such pipe from freezing, including but not limited to wrap-on insulation or heat tape tracer line or wire.



b) Size of Water Distribution Pipes. The fixture supply for each fixture shall be at least the minimum size provided in Appendix A, Table D. The size of all other water distribution pipes shall be determined by calculating the water supply demand (in water supply fixture units) for that portion of the water distribution system served by the pipe. Using Appendix A, Tables M, N, O, P and Q, the cumulative water supply demand or load shall be calculated for all fixtures, piping, valves and fittings served by the water distribution pipe, and the pipe shall meet the minimum size provided in Appendix A, Table N or O, as applicable. Exception: As an alternative to using Tables M, N, O, P and Q to design and size the piping in the water distribution system, the system may be designed and sized employing current engineering practices, provided the design/plans are approved in writing by an Illinois licensed professional engineer, an Illinois licensed architect or an individual Certified in Plumbing Engineering (C.I.P.E.) by the American Society of Plumbing Engineers and approved in writing by the Department.



c) Minimum Water Pressure. The minimum constant water service pressure on the discharge side of the water meter shall be (at least) 20 p.s.i.; and the minimum constant water pressure at each fixture shall be at least 8 p.s.i. or the minimum recommended by the fixture manufacturer.





Dear Mr. Rat,

While your information may be important if one were going to design and install a water system in a residence in Illinois, the Massachusetts plumbing code applies in Massachusetts.

My residence conformed to the Massachusetts plumbing code when it was buillt, and still conforms to the Masachusetts plumbing code.

Please note that in Massachusetts, the calculated total number of hot and units is adjusted by the demand factor when pipe size is determined. For a single family residential, the demand factor is 50%, and not 100% (AKA simultaneous use) as the downeaster implied.

I assume that you simply "overlooked" that part of those "three" plumbing codes.:rolleyes:

Thank you for another canard!;)

Water pipe sizing (http://www.terrylove.com/watersize.htm)



Water Pipe Sizing example that conforms to the MA Plumbing Code


http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv32/Ladiesman271-2009/MA_Plumbing_Code_Pipe_Sizing-1.jpg

[Ladiesman271]

How can I possibly argue with your brilliance. You are of course correct in every way and me, a licensed master plumber for 36 years, A plumbers apprentice teacher as well as a certified plumbers certification instructor has absolutly no idea what I am talking about.

Let's go through this one last time.

You have to provide continuous flow at continuous temperature to ALL FIXTURES, AT THE SAME TIME. Yes, Yes you do. Call the plumbing board. Ask them. They will tell you and you will still freekin argue the point. You can not have a residence where fixtures can only be run one or two at a time. Nor can the temperature at the fixtures fluctuate due to increased or decreased load. Yes Wally. That's what they pay us the big bucks for. Just because you bought into a load of crap don't make it so.




Thank you for that prevarication.


From the Massachusetts plumbing code:

(3) Principle NO.3 -- Hot Water Required. Hot water must be supplied to all plumbing fixtures which normally need or require hot water for their proper use and function.

Water pipe sizing (http://www.terrylove.com/watersize.htm)



MA Plumbing Code Water Pipe Size Example


Massachusetts Plumbing Code (http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv32/Ladiesman271-2009/MA_Plumbing_Code_Pipe_Sizing-1.jpg)


.

[nhmaster]

and your interpretation is?

[Dunbar Plumbing]

I'm surprised by the lack of views on this thread, thought it would be much higher given the content.

Maybe this is why my dog called Domino's pizza and ordered a dog bone supreme, heavy on the bacon! Bacon-Bacon!

[SewerRatz]

About the 140 degree setting, here in Illinois they are talking about adopting that as well, and installing a tempering valve as well. They also noted that this will affect the code for tankless units, since the do not get the water hot enough to kill anything off.

[master plumber mark]

You might as well be talking to blind and deaf cows
on this thread....

I suggest that the tankless page be ended...

i cant take it anymore....

[jadnashua]

Nashua, NH requires all new WH be installed with tempering valves. While they can't lock the thermostat at 140-degress, they'd like to.

[Scuba_Dave]

The county above me now requires the tank heaters to be set at 140 and have a tempering valve installed just like you said...they have been doing this for 2 years now...

A tank heater at 140 !! ?? :eek:

I just reset mine to about 115 & put it on energy saver mode
Took a nice long hot shower, still plenty of water

[SewerRatz]

A tank heater at 140 !! ?? :eek:

I just reset mine to about 115 & put it on energy saver mode
Took a nice long hot shower, still plenty of water

140 to kill any ickies that may want to grow in your water heater. 115 is way to low of a setting you are tempting fate with that low of a setting. Key is at 140 you need to have a whole house tempering valve installed at the heater to bring the temp back down to a safe 120 degrees.

[Scuba_Dave]

Ah, no tempering valve, & we have a child
So until that gets installed I can't turn it up
I wish I knew about that, not sure why one wasn't installed when the WH was replaced. Is this a recent change in code - past 3-4 years?
I'll need to test the actual Temp, its just below the 120 mark - I wish they had better dials

[SewerRatz]

Ah, no tempering valve, & we have a child
So until that gets installed I can't turn it up
I wish I knew about that, not sure why one wasn't installed when the WH was replaced. Is this a recent change in code - past 3-4 years?
I'll need to test the actual Temp, its just below the 120 mark - I wish they had better dials

Some areas are changing the code to this, as I mentioned here in Illinois they are talking about it amending the code this year.

[Ladiesman271]

Ah, no tempering valve, & we have a child
So until that gets installed I can't turn it up
I wish I knew about that, not sure why one wasn't installed when the WH was replaced. Is this a recent change in code - past 3-4 years?




It is not required by the Massachusetts Plumbing Code. It also is not prohibited by the Massachusetts Plumbing Code. I am surprised that the "boys" who post here don't require tempering valves on all of their water heater replacements when they have indicated in the past that they are so concerned about the health of the public.

The reason I posted those "GOOGLE BOY" links is due to the fact that there are groups of people who tell you to turn down the water heater tank temperature, and other groups that tell you to turn up the water heater tank temperature. Sort of like the Three Stooges (not the ones who post here) saying to point that way!







I'll need to test the actual Temp, its just below the 120 mark - I wish they had better dials




The thermostats on hot water tanks have an ON / OFF cycle range of 15 or 20 degrees (depending on model/brand/setup), so there is no exact water temperature even when you measure with a thermometer.

[Ladiesman271]

and your interpretation is?


I was trying to talk about the temperature of the "hot" water during the test, not the volume and pressure. What hot water temperature is required by code taking into consideration the volume and pressure during your test, and for what time period must that temperature be maintained?

My old water heater tank would start to cool down after 15 or 20 minutes of use (shower) during the winter season (40 degree incoming water temperature). My tankless will maintain temperature during a shower that could last forever.

No water storage in a tankless means no water is stored at the optimum temperature needed to create a breeding ground for bacteria either!

[Cass]

Ladiesman271...I am just wondering why you are so interested in the Mass plumbing code since home owners aren't allowed to do their own plumbing by Law in your State...it seems to me you would just call a plumber in and let him worry about interpreting the code...

[jadnashua]

Nashua, NH has required a tempering valve on WH for at least 3-years, maybe longer.

[nhmaster]

Well folks that's it! Let's all get rid of our tank type water heaters because Ladiesman seems to be the definitave expert on the whole subject of heating water. That EVERY SINGLE piece of information he posts is either and exageration misleading or just plain wrong has nothing to do with it. His knowledge of water heating technology is far superior to anything we possess. He has a way of interpreting the Mass code that is far beyone any or our reasoning. I should just hand in my Mass license now because I obviously have no idea how to size water piping or fixture demand, at least by his method. Of course I suppose I could get someone from the board to give him a little lesson but he would probably tell that poor guy he didn't know his job either.

PLEASE GOD CLOSE THIS STUPID THREAD. My helmet is starting to frey athe the edges

[sjsmithjr]

No water storage in a tankless means no water is stored at the optimum temperature needed to create a breeding ground for bacteria either!

If you are suggesting that the absence of a tank type water heater or tankless with recirculating system would somehow preclude the presence of bacteria (in particular the pathogen legionellosis) in a water distribution system, then you are sadly mistaken.

Could you please clarify, in your own words, your position regarding the possibility of legionellosis being present in a water distribution system that relies on a tankless water heater?

[Redwood]

Ladiesman271...I am just wondering why you are so interested in the Mass plumbing code since home owners aren't allowed to do their own plumbing by Law in your State...it seems to me you would just call a plumber in and let him worry about interpreting the code...

I had the same thoughts when I posted the yet unanswered question in this post...
Unanswered question for Laddy Man (http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showpost.php?p=183408&postcount=127)

I guess the hard to answer questions get ignored while the drivel spews on...

Laddy man Answer the questions or shut the trap!:mad:
I have 3 posts waiting replies...
Have you got answers or, just the garbage?

[Scuba_Dave]

Duck & cover, change topic

repeat as needed

[Ladiesman271]

Well, it's on the Delta website:

"Often the outgoing water pressure from a "tankless" water heater is relatively low. As a result, these devices are not generally recommended for use with pressure balanced units due to the possible differences in water pressure from the hot and cold lines. For example, if you were to have 20 PSI on the hot supply line and 50 PSI on the cold, since pressure balancing adjusts to the low pressure, your resulting operating pressure in the shower will be reduced."

Maybe Greg should give Delta a call and let them know that their wrong too. The Boy Scout's all trades certified and got it all figured out, you know. :rolleyes:



Back to the original topic.

I measured the water pressure of the hot water while my shower was on full force hot with no cold mixed in. Standard present day MA code required 2.2? gpm shower head. I measured 45 PSI at the washing machine shutoff (pipe length 45 foot of the same 65 foot run to shower). Present water input temperature 42 degrees. Output water temperature is 125 degrees nominal.

That being said, my type of tankless unit does not adjust the water volume or pressure to maintain its heating capacity.

So can one presume that with the use of a pressure balanced shower valve that the pressure of the cold would be limited to 45 psi and nothing else would happen?


I also read the FPN on the pressure balanced shower valve web sites. The substance of the FPN note is that a pressure balanced shower valve requires a seasonal adjustment of the high temperature limiter in order to maintain the anti scald temperature year round. How many consumers know about that, let alone how many of them make a seasonal adjustment?

.

[Redwood]

This is the reply we are now giving...

[sjsmithjr]

Back to the original topic.

Not so fast. Ask and answer, my friend. Much time has passed since that post. Respond to each question asked of you since and I will consider your most recent.

[Hillbilly Man]

Hot Dang!
This is just like when Southern Man screwed the pooch!

Man that Redwood He don't pull no punches.:eek:
It looks just like when Tyson was at his best!

[Ladiesman271]

Not so fast. Ask and answer, my friend. Much time has passed since that post. Respond to each question asked of you since and I will consider your most recent.



A tankless water heater will pass through whatever is in the cold water feed to the tank. THe heater water is no worse nor better than the incoming cold water. As has been widely discussed here and elsewhere, a storage tank heater is a potential breeding ground for bacteria if an improper temperature setting is used.


If that answer does not suit you, research "your" issue on what problems exist in public & private water supplies with the EPA or the appropriate local government or medical research group. After you have done your research, write a complete detailed report and get back to us at your convenience.



http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv32/Ladiesman271-2009/can-of-worms.jpg

[sjsmithjr]

A tankless water heater will pass through whatever is in the cold water feed to the tank. The heater water is no worse nor better than the incoming cold water. As has been widely discussed here and elsewhere, a storage tank heater is a potential breeding ground for bacteria if an improper temperature setting is used.

Again, I will ask you if you could please clarify, in your own words, your position regarding the possibility of legionellosis being present in a water distribution system that relies on a tankless water heater?

It is not "my" issue although I do believe you brought it up a couple of days ago. You can also rest assured that my knowledge base re the topic isn't sponsered by Google.

I believe several other posters have questions awaiting answers as well.

[Redwood]

Laddy Boy,
Answer the questions and replies in posts #127-129 of this thread.
If you have an answer at all.:cool:
The correct answers have been given and it is no can of worms.

[Ladiesman271]

Again, I will ask you if you could please clarify, in your own words, your position regarding the possibility of legionellosis being present in a water distribution system that relies on a tankless water heater?




I have already answered that question. Since you are a "special case", legionellosis is commonly found in the cold water supply that is piped into your home from whatever water source is used.







It is not "my" issue although I do believe you brought it up a couple of days ago. You can also rest assured that my knowledge base re the topic isn't sponsered by Google.




You are the one who has expanded the scope of this discussion to include water sources, water distribution systems, and what deficiencies exist in the incoming water supply. The expanded scope of this issue is 100 % "your issue"!






I believe several other posters have questions awaiting answers as well.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0jyKabLHVc

[Redwood]

I believe several other posters have questions awaiting answers as well.

That is Correct!
It is time Laddy it is time...
Answer the questions...
Your credibility is shot!

The debating practice of deflecting any question given without answering it,
and then throwing a question to the opponent may work in a presidental debate but it ain't workin here!

Answers Laddy Boy Answers!

[Redwood]

Look back to posts #127-129 in this thread.
They await your reply!

[sjsmithjr]

Thanks for taking the time to clarifying your position re the occurrence of Legionella, Ladiesman. That does indeed make me feel special! Per your request, here is my understanding regarding the topic.

It is important to recognize that any water distribution system where the temperature ranges between 70 to 120F is a potential source for Legionella regardless of the type of water heater used. In warmer climates, it is not uncommon for the temperature of the cold water distribution system to be within the growth range. Piping materials used, the proximity of the distribution piping to heat sources, dead ends, etc are also variables to be considered.

Even at temperatures in excess of 130F, Legionella can survive 5 to 6 hours. Instantaneous kill is not achieved until 160F.

In the Canadian study sited earlier, the temperature in the bottom of the electric water heaters where Legionella was observed was typically between 85F and 105F. No reason was given for maintaining the temperature that low or if the heaters in question where single element. The recommendation was to raise the bottom temp in those heaters 140F.

I should note that in the preceding I have rounded the temperatures given for ease of discussion and that the actual temperatures would be slightly different.

Of course, the preceding discussion completely ignores the effect of chlorine on different types of bacteria, including Legionella. Many variables come into play, such as pH, temperature, residence time, and the amount of chlorine present. I could address that as well if anyone is truly interested.

The point of all of this is that the use of a tankless system does not preclude the presence or growth of Legionella. Your statement that "no water storage in a tankless means no water is stored at the optimum temperature needed to create a breeding ground for bacteria either" is false. I hope I have helped both you and other readers of this forum understand some of the reasons why.

That's all the leisure I've got for today!

[SewerRatz]

Thanks for taking the time to clarifying your position re the occurrence of Legionella, Ladiesman. That does indeed make me feel special! Per your request, here is my understanding regarding the topic.

It is important to recognize that any water distribution system where the temperature ranges between 70 to 120F is a potential source for Legionella regardless of the type of water heater used. In warmer climates, it is not uncommon for the temperature of the cold water distribution system to be within the growth range. Piping materials used, the proximity of the distribution piping to heat sources, dead ends, etc are also variables to be considered.

Even at temperatures in excess of 130F, Legionella can survive 5 to 6 hours. Instantaneous kill is not achieved until 160F.

In the Canadian study sited earlier, the temperature in the bottom of the electric water heaters where Legionella was observed was typically between 85F and 105F. No reason was given for maintaining the temperature that low or if the heaters in question where single element. The recommendation was to raise the bottom temp in those heaters 140F.

I should note that in the preceding I have rounded the temperatures given for ease of discussion and that the actual temperatures would be slightly different.

Of course, the preceding discussion completely ignores the effect of chlorine on different types of bacteria, including Legionella. Many variables come into play, such as pH, temperature, residence time, and the amount of chlorine present. I could address that as well if anyone is truly interested.

The point of all of this is that the use of a tankless system does not preclude the presence or growth of Legionella. Your statement that "no water storage in a tankless means no water is stored at the optimum temperature needed to create a breeding ground for bacteria either" is false. I hope I have helped both you and other readers of this forum understand some of the reasons why.

That's all the leisure I've got for today!

Excellent reply there sjsmithjr, what you said there was one of the things I learned in one of the many plumbing classes I had to take. Thank you for taking your time to explain it for everyone here on the forums. It is the false assumptions people make that can get lots of other people ill, or even kill them.

[Ladiesman271]

140 to kill any ickies that may want to grow in your water heater. 115 is way to low of a setting you are tempting fate with that low of a setting. Key is at 140 you need to have a whole house tempering valve installed at the heater to bring the temp back down to a safe 120 degrees.



Since you knew those facts from all those plumbing classes you had to take, can one presume that you installed a whole house tempering valve in every water heater that you ever installed or replaced? Just wondering if you followed though with your knowledge.


Note that with no tempering valve installed it is not legal to have hot water in the tank above 130 degrees F (per MA code anyhow)!

[Ladiesman271]

The point of all of this is that the use of a tankless system does not preclude the presence or growth of Legionella. Your statement that "no water storage in a tankless means no water is stored at the optimum temperature needed to create a breeding ground for bacteria either" is false. I hope I have helped both you and other readers of this forum understand some of the reasons why.




OK, I see that you prefer to use legal verbiage. I did not think that I had to run an internet posting by a lawyer before I posted here.

The little water that is stored in a tankless water heater is stored at room temperature, so it is not any safer nor more dangerous than cold water that is stored in the cold water pipes. You flush out most of the "stagnant" water from the tankless hot water system end to end by the time you get hot water to the point of use. The complete flush of the hot water system is performed many times each day.

That is hardly the case with a tank type water heater. A complete flush of a water heater tank is rarely done at all. Bacteria loves to colonize in those tanks when the water temperature is set "too low". With no tempering valve installed at the tank, the legal high temperature limit is considered to be "too low" for what we are discussing!

[SewerRatz]

Since you knew those facts from all those plumbing classes you had to take, can one presume that you installed a whole house tempering valve in every water heater that you ever installed or replaced? Just wondering if you followed though with your knowledge.


Note that with no tempering valve installed it is not legal to have hot water in the tank above 130 degrees F (per MA code anyhow)!

One thing I pride myself on is doing things to code. Yes If the homeowner had concerns about bacteria growing in their tank I did install a whole house tempering valve and set the heater to 140 degrees. I also made sure they where able to run all the fixtures in their home as the same time. As well as set the tub and shower limit stops to 115 degrees per the code. One other thing I install is an expansion tank, and if the water heater is on the first or second floor I also install a vacuum relief valve per the plumbing code. And guess what I am a licensed plumber so I am not violating my states laws about practicing plumbing with out a license. How about you, are you a licensed plumber or did you have one install your water heater?

[SewerRatz]

OK, I see that you prefer to use legal verbiage. I did not think that I had to run an internet posting by a lawyer before I posted here.

The little water that is stored in a tankless water heater is stored at room temperature, so it is not any safer nor more dangerous than cold water that is stored in the cold water pipes. You flush out most of the "stagnant" water from the tankless hot water system end to end by the time you get hot water to the point of use. The complete flush of the hot water system is performed many times each day.

That is hardly the case with a tank type water heater. A complete flush of a water heater tank is rarely done at all. Bacteria loves to colonize in those tanks when the water temperature is set "too low". With no tempering valve installed at the tank, the legal high temperature limit is considered to be "too low" for what we are discussing!

They love to colonize in the heat exchangers as well. If you truly think a tankless heater is not at risk, you are sadly mistaking.

[Ladiesman271]

One thing I pride myself on is doing things to code. Yes If the homeowner had concerns about bacteria growing in their tank I did install a whole house tempering valve and set the heater to 140 degrees.




Yikes, you are depending on the homeowner to know all about about what you learned in your plumbing class? :eek:


While we are talking about "the code", at least you are on the my side of an old discussion when it comes to air gaps being installed in a dishwasher drain line. It is not required by the MA plumbing code, so you would never install one if you were a plumber in MA unless the homeowner asked for one to be installed.:D

[Ladiesman271]

They love to colonize in the heat exchangers as well. If you truly think a tankless heater is not at risk, you are sadly mistaking.



You and the "boys" better take some action against a ton of plumbers / dealers /distributors for making false statements in that regard if you truly think that your statement is accurate!


One of many examples:

http://www.tankless-water-heater.com/legionnaire.htm




http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv32/Ladiesman271-2009/LegionnairesDisease.jpg

[sjsmithjr]

They love to colonize in the heat exchangers as well.

Thanks for adding that. You would still have to heat the water to 140F to purge the lines of Legionella bacteria. I believe (as in I don't have time to check myself right now) the prescribed remedy for pasteurizing infected systems is to heat the water to 160F for 24 hours and flush each outlet for 20 minutes.

Bottom line: if you are concerned eliminating Legionella you have to heat the water, regardless of method, to 140F and reduce the temperature at the point of use to the temperature specified by the code followed in your area. Cold water lines must be kept below 65F.

If I'm mistaken, someone please let me know, but please don't go quoting a sales brochure.

[nhmaster]

SJSmithJR, Nice post and thank you. I need to calarify a couple things for our more literate readers though. Legionella bacteria will propogate at the right temperatures in any piping. The tank is really no more of a breeding ground than the supply and distribution piping is. Legionella bacterial is highly resistant to chlorene and only chlorene in doses high enough to kill humans will kill legionella bacteria. Of course even in moderatly high concentrations chlorene becomes highly caustic so chlorination is not a viable option. Water temperatures higher than 160 degrees have been found to be effective at killing the majority of the bacteria but it has been found that the bacterial can and will re-propogate further down the distribution lines. Therefore the best recommendation would be to set the thank to 160 and install tempering valves at each fixture as close to the outlet as possible. Installing a tempering valve on the tank, while somewhat helpfull, will not necessaraly kill all the bacteria as there can still be colonies growing in those pipes that are seldom used. Here's where we begin to run into problems with tankless heaters as they can not be operated at temperatures that high. Code review boards have been kicking legislation addressing this problem around for a few years now and have not yet made a decision most likely because of the money involved and pressure from various interested lobbiests. The stark truth here is and always has been that any plumbing inspector could very well prohibit the majority of tankless installs based solely on their inability to provide continuous hot water at a continuous temperature to every single fixture in the home at the same time. That is the reason why tankless coils in oil fired boilers have all but dissapeared from the scene.

I hereby certify the entire post above to be completely and totally Google Free and of my own creation

[Ladiesman271]

You still have problems downstream even if you boost the temperature in the hot water tank if you have a recirculating system installed. The recirculated water needs to be at that same higher temperature. That means more complications of having hot water that is over the 110 degree limit at the fixtures.

One good thing is that if you have copper pipes, then that helps out with the issue of bacteria (of all types).

[Ladiesman271]

The stark truth here is and always has been that any plumbing inspector could very well prohibit the majority of tankless installs based solely on their inability to provide continuous hot water at a continuous temperature to every single fixture in the home at the same time. That is the reason why tankless coils in oil fired boilers have all but dissapeared from the scene.





You now have added a few more words to the hot water requirements. Now in order to fail this test you have established the requirement to have the "inability to provide continuous hot water at a continuous temperature to every single fixture in the home at the same time".


So now we have to finish things up. What is the minimum hot water temperature and the time period of the hot water draw that will permit one to pass this test? The minimum pressure values have already been established.


Even with a tank type heater if all the hot water fixtures are operated at the same time the hot water will not last very long. Furthermore, is the test for all fixtures turned on simultaneously (both hot and cold)?

[Scuba_Dave]

Originally Posted by Ladiesman271 http://www.terrylove.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?p=181662#post181662)
The tankless does have a flow restrictor of 3 1/4 gpm.

Simply put, my gas tankless water heater is specified to provide 2.09 GPM with a 90 degree temperature rise.


So HOW exactly do you supply 2 showers running at the same time??
Actually how do you use ANY 2 devices at the same time?

still waiting

[SewerRatz]

You now have added a few more words to the hot water requirements. Now in order to fail this test you have established the requirement to have the "inability to provide continuous hot water at a continuous temperature to every single fixture in the home at the same time".


So now we have to finish things up. What is the minimum hot water temperature and the time period of the hot water draw that will permit one to pass this test? The minimum pressure values have already been established.


Even with a tank type heater if all the hot water fixtures are operated at the same time the hot water will not last very long. Furthermore, is the test for all fixtures turned on simultaneously (both hot and cold)?

At least a tank heater can supply water at mutiple fixtures at one time. A tankless system can do this as well but you need more than one unit. Which I been saying for some time now.

[nhmaster]

At least a tank heater can supply water at mutiple fixtures at one time. A tankless system can do this as well but you need more than one unit. Which I been saying for some time now.

I teach 52 high school students each day, 13 plumbing I & II apprentices two nights a week. Teach plumbers re-certification classes 4 to 6 times a month and run another 6 to 10 seminars a year on subjects ranging from backflow prevention to solar water heating. Untill this fella and his cohort came on the scene I have never in all that time, even dealing with drooling freshmen, had any one as frustratingly ignorant as this guy. I think in my zeal I may just have overlooked one very saliant premiss here though. I think these guys just plain like to argue for the fun of it. I was gonna put them both on the ignore list but truth is sometimes it's kinda fun seeing just how brick headed and wrong a fella can be.

[SewerRatz]

I teach 52 high school students each day, 13 plumbing I & II apprentices two nights a week. Teach plumbers re-certification classes 4 to 6 times a month and run another 6 to 10 seminars a year on subjects ranging from backflow prevention to solar water heating. Untill this fella and his cohort came on the scene I have never in all that time, even dealing with drooling freshmen, had any one as frustratingly ignorant as this guy. I think in my zeal I may just have overlooked one very saliant premiss here though. I think these guys just plain like to argue for the fun of it. I was gonna put them both on the ignore list but truth is sometimes it's kinda fun seeing just how brick headed and wrong a fella can be.

I never put anyone on ignore, I like to see what they have to say no matter how brickheaded they are.

[master plumber mark]

I never put anyone on ignore, I like to see what they have to say no matter how brickheaded they are.


its sort of like slowing down and looking at a traffic accident...

or like
shock and awe at someones stupidity, I suppose..

[sjsmithjr]

I teach 52 high school students each day, 13 plumbing I & II apprentices two nights a week. Teach plumbers re-certification classes 4 to 6 times a month and run another 6 to 10 seminars a year on subjects ranging from backflow prevention to solar water heating. Untill this fella and his cohort came on the scene I have never in all that time, even dealing with drooling freshmen, had any one as frustratingly ignorant as this guy. I think in my zeal I may just have overlooked one very saliant premiss here though. I think these guys just plain like to argue for the fun of it. I was gonna put them both on the ignore list but truth is sometimes it's kinda fun seeing just how brick headed and wrong a fella can be.

QED; I'm done with this one.

[Redwood]

So the dip**** hasn't come forth with the answers yet?:mad:

May I refer you again to posts #127-129

[Ladiesman271]

So HOW exactly do you supply 2 showers running at the same time??




Let me see now. I have 1 full bath and two half baths. How do I supply two showers running at the same time?

Do I really have to give you that answer? The answer is obvious!







Actually how do you use ANY 2 devices at the same time?





Simple. Turn on the tap. Press the On button. Turn the cycle knob? You can easily take a shower and use all the hot water taps at the fixtures at the same time.

Heck even if I did a hot water wash at "the same time" that I wanted to take a shower, by the time I got into the shower the washer tub would be full of hot water. Needless to say, who does a "hot" water wash and rinse these days. I prefer to spend my money in different way that pissing it down the drain!



Costs to do a load of laundry. The electric rate used in these calculations is 1/2 of what I pay ($.206 per kWh) and the gas is light a bit also ($1.63 per therm).

http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/laundry.html

[Redwood]

Dang fruit flies buzzin around...:mad:
Can you hear them?

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2/Redwood39/bug.gif

Laddy Boy, once again I direct you to comments you need to nake on posts #127-129 in this thread.

[SewerRatz]

Let me see now. I have 1 full bath and two half baths. How do I supply two showers running at the same time?



Then the last part of this Q & A post I made Straight Talk About "On-Demand Tankless Water Heaters by A.O. Smith (http://www.terrylove.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=17) applies to you and to others that fall under this part. I put the part I am taling about in bold.

Q. What are the best applications for on-demand tankless water heaters? In other words, when is tankless the best choice?

A. This is another multi-part answer…


Residential New Construction. Installation of tankless heaters is less of a problem here, since the necessary venting, gas lines and other tankless requirements can be built into the plans for the home.

However, because most builders want to keep the cost of their homes as low as possible, the initial price of tankless water heaters will be a significant obstacle. We don’t see on-demand tankless as a saleable proposition for residential new construction, except for high-end custom homes, where the builder and/or homeowner can handle the expense of installing multiple tankless units.

Residential “Repair and Replacement”. We’ve already discussed the high cost of purchasing and installing an on-demand tankless water heater to replace an existing tank-type heater. In our view, most homeowners have been and will continue to be satisfied with the performance of a tank-type water heater. It is likely that the “downstream” claims of tankless manufacturers will persuade most consumers to pay extra for a technology that is not really in tune with American lifestyles.

Residential Remodeling. This is the primary niche for on-demand tankless water heaters, and particularly for the A.O. Smith ProStar model XT19400. ProStar should be positioned as a point-of-use water heater serving low to medium demand applications or individual fixtures, or as a supplemental hot water source to the home’s primary tank-type water heater for room additions and other major kitchen or bath remodeling projects that significantly increase hot water demand. ProStar should only be considered as a “whole house” water heating option for very small homes or apartments with low hot water demand.

[Ladiesman271]

Then the last part of this Q & A post I made Straight Talk About "On-Demand Tankless Water Heaters by A.O. Smith (http://www.terrylove.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=17) applies to you and to others that fall under this part. I put the part I am taling about in bold.

ProStar should only be considered as a “whole house” water heating option for very small homes or apartments with low hot water demand.[/LIST]



Yes, but according to the plumbing instructor you are ignoring "the code".

By the way, the description of a "very small home" has changed over the years. My modest size home 3 bedroom home has 2,400 sq ft of space including the first floor level garage. The McMansions that they have built in recent years are nice, but one needs a nice income to afford them. I wonder how many of those home "owners" are underwater (or worse)?

[gregsauls]

Yes, but according to the plumbing instructor you are ignoring "the code".

By the way, the description of a "very small home" has changed over the years. My modest size home 3 bedroom home has 2,400 sq ft of space including the first floor level garage. The McMansions that they have built in recent years are nice, but one needs a nice income to afford them. I wonder how many of those home "owners" are underwater (or worse)?


This would also be AO Smiths way of saying "we don't want to sell them, go somewhere else".... and I would !

[sedin26]

Ladiesman,

I'm not against tankless heaters (I may go tankless myself next time due to severe space restrictions) but I do have a question on your numbers.

You mentioned that your system is rated at 2.09 GPM output at, I believe, 75 degree temp rise and you have also stated that you can run multiple showers at the same time.

That doesn't seem to add up and I'm wondering how you achieve this? Given that a low flow showerhead is rated at a higher GPM that the unit, how can you run two at once?

The only thing I can think of is that each shower uses some cold and some hot so you might be able to squeak by with two running but it still doesn't seem quite right, particularly for those who might like hot showers.

Also, how do you find it works when you have someone in the shower and a sink calls for hot water on full? (filling sink to do dishes, for example) Is it able to keep up?

[Scuba_Dave]

Let me see now. I have 1 full bath and two half baths. How do I supply two showers running at the same time?
You can easily take a shower and use all the hot water taps at the fixtures at the same time.

Heck even if I did a hot water wash at "the same time" that I wanted to take a shower, by the time I got into the shower the washer tub would be full of hot water

You CAN"T supply 2 showers since according to your own posts
your tankwortless will only supply 2.09gpm flow rate

So you have already posted that your tankworthless will NOT supply more then 1 shower at a time


Originally Posted by Ladiesman271 http://www.terrylove.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?p=181662#post181662)
The tankworthless does have a flow restrictor of 3 1/4 gpm.

Simply put, my gas tankworthless water heater is specified to provide 2.09 GPM with a 90 degree temperature rise.

[Ladiesman271]

Ladiesman,

I'm not against tankless heaters (I may go tankless myself next time due to severe space restrictions) but I do have a question on your numbers.

You mentioned that your system is rated at 2.09 GPM output at, I believe, 75 degree temp rise and you have also stated that you can run multiple showers at the same time.

That doesn't seem to add up and I'm wondering how you achieve this? Given that a low flow showerhead is rated at a higher GPM that the unit, how can you run two at once?

The only thing I can think of is that each shower uses some cold and some hot so you might be able to squeak by with two running but it still doesn't seem quite right, particularly for those who might like hot showers.

Also, how do you find it works when you have someone in the shower and a sink calls for hot water on full? (filling sink to do dishes, for example) Is it able to keep up?



The "boys" have stated over and over again that I can not run two showers "at the same time". I never made that claim. I have never even tested for that type of use. My home has one full bath and two 1/2 baths (read post 191), so how can I even test for that type of use when I only have one shower?

Getting back to the basic question, the code limit for shower heads in this state is 2.5 GPM. If you use multiple shower heads in one shower stall, the total flow of all the shower heads added together can not exceed 2.5 gpm.

I have the water heater thermostat set to 120 degrees. With 40 degree incoming water temperature, the specified 90 degree temperature rise @ the rated 2.09 GPM would indicate a limit of 130 degrees @ 2.09 gpm. In the summer with warmer incoming water temperatures, the unit is rated at 4.18 gpm with a 45 degree temperature rise.

Anyhow, the first time I even measured flow in my shower was this year. I have the older three handle (hot / cold /shower) setup in my bathroom, so it was easy to measure hot and cold volume at the end of a long shower. As I recall the ratio was about 2 units of hot water to 1 unit of cold water (@ 40 degrees). The usual flow rate was about 1.5 gpm as I recall, so that would be 1 gpm hot water and .5 gpm of cold water. I have tested at full volume so the shower head was the volume limiter, so that would be about 1.6 gpm hot to .8 gpm cold.

Hot water capacity @ 120 degrees (40 degree incoming) from any other fixture is available @ about .5 gpm to 1 gpm. That temperature is hot, so you end up mixing cold in with hot water use at any specific fixture.

I have never had anyone try to fill up the kitchen sink with hot water while anyone was taking a shower. I use a dishwasher. To tell you the truth I am not even sure where I put the drain plug for the garbage disposer.

Full on at the kitchen sink is 1 gpm (1 gpm maximum hot and cold mix). The normal comfortable setting is in the middle of the single handle kitchen fawcett (about 1/2 hot and 1/2 cold).

Now if I turn on every hot water fixture to full on and leave them there, the hot water temperature in the shower will not remain at 120 degrees. Not sure of how low it goes either because that scenario has never happened to me in my lifetime. Maybe I will measure that this week if I get a chance to do so.

Make sure you check you incoming winter water temperature and water pressure before you consider tankless gas. Tankless electric is another animal altogether and is not recommended for a lot of valid reasons.

[SewerRatz]

This would also be AO Smiths way of saying "we don't want to sell them, go somewhere else".... and I would !

They are not saying they do not want to sell them. They are saying it is a costly install, and in most cases you will need to install more than one unit to handle the demand that most homes have. Which has been my point since day one. Yes some people can get by on a single unit install. I could get by on it in my mother's home if I install the largest unit out there. Thing is my mother's home is a 2 bath that was built in the early 50's but its only my mom and dad living their so they never run both showers at the same time and nor do they run the wash or dishwasher while someone is taking a shower. The newer homes in the Chicago suburbs are at least 3 or more baths, and they do take showers all at the same time and they do do laundry during showers. These larger homes also have 75 gallon high recovery tanks or some even have two 50 gallon high recovery tanks. These people would most definitely need to run two units to be able to handle their peak demand load.

A.O. Smith, Bradford White, Rheem, and State water heater manufactures all say the same thing that Tankless water heaters is not the cure all that everyone is making them out to be.

I have installed many tankless units, some of the home owners listened and let me properly size the unit and if the need be install two units together to meet their demands.

The others that insisted from all their "research" that a single unit will handle their needs I still installed it for them with a disclaimer that I had informed them of a properly designed system. Sure enough after a week I get a call telling me that they are only getting tempered water. I just tell them to read my disclaimer, and if they want me to come and install it the way I recommended to them in the first place I be more than happy to. Other than that I can not help them any further.

[Ladiesman271]

You CAN"T supply 2 showers since according to your own posts
your tankwortless will only supply 2.09gpm flow rate

So you have already posted that your tankworthless will NOT supply more then 1 shower at a time



Find a single post made by me where I stated that I could do that!

I never said that I could do that. The "boys" along with yourself keep telling me I can not run two showers at the same time. That was always obvious to me. I only have one full bathroom, and two 1/2 baths. Maybe you, the "boys" and the Hillbilly man take showers simultaneously outside the house, but we do not do that around here.

Read post 191 again.

[SewerRatz]

Getting back to the basic question, the code limit for shower heads in this state is 2.5 GPM. If you use multiple shower heads in one shower stall, the total flow of all the shower heads added together can not exceed 2.5 gpm.



If you have more than one shower valve, each valve is allowed per the code to deliver 2.5 gpm to its total connected head. So if you have two shower valves that means that shower can have a total of 5 gpm. Lots of homes around here in their master bath have this arrangement, I have seen up to 4 mixing valves in one shower so if they turn on the overhead rain shower, body sprays set one and set 2 and the handheld shower, you are looking at 10 gpm.

[Ladiesman271]

They are not saying they do not want to sell them. They are saying it is a costly install, and in most cases you will need to install more than one unit to handle the demand that most homes have. Which has been my point since day one. Yes some people can get by on a single unit install. I could get by on it in my mother's home if I install the largest unit out there. Thing is my mother's home is a 2 bath that was built in the early 50's but its only my mom and dad living their so they never run both showers at the same time and nor do they run the wash or dishwasher while someone is taking a shower.




Yup, my parents have a mid 60's vintage 5 bedroom colonial with 2 full baths and 2 1/2 baths. The hot water has a 1/2" line that is fed from the tankless coil in the FHW heating boiler. We had two adults and 7 children of various ages, and there was never a hot water shortage even with that tankless setup.

Then again, we did not take two showers at the same time either. One after the other in two different rooms. By the time someone finished in one shower, there was the time lag of drying off, drying the hair, getting dressed and whatever. That's when the second shower was used. I am not sure if a typical sized single tank type heater could keep up with a lot of back to back showers either.

Also do that many people run washing machines with the full hot wash and rinse cycle at any time during the day, let alone while someone is in the shower? Sounds like good grounds for a divorce to me!:D







The newer homes in the Chicago suburbs are at least 3 or more baths, and they do take showers all at the same time and they do do laundry during showers. These larger homes also have 75 gallon high recovery tanks or some even have two 50 gallon high recovery tanks. These people would most definitely need to run two units to be able to handle their peak demand load.




So you see no difference between a normal sized home and a McMansion?








The others that insisted from all their "research" that a single unit will handle their needs I still installed it for them with a disclaimer that I had informed them of a properly designed system. Sure enough after a week I get a call telling me that they are only getting tempered water. I just tell them to read my disclaimer, and if they want me to come and install it the way I recommended to them in the first place I be more than happy to. Other than that I can not help them any further.





Tepid water where? Out of the tankless, or out of the shower head? Gas unit or electric? Public water with adequate water pressure, or well water? Current low flow shower heads, or high flow units? Pressure balanced shower valve or temperature controlled? Was this a McMansion?

I assume that you did more than just install a tankless unit without evaluating the full "system".

[SewerRatz]

Also do that many people run washing machines with the full hot wash and rinse cycle at any time during the day, let alone while someone is in the shower? Sounds like good grounds for a divorce to me!:D

My mom still uses pure hot rinse cycle, but like I said her old plumbing she doesn't do it while someone is in the shower. My father likes to take super hot baths, after he fills the tub, then my mother starts the wash and her tanked unit recovered quick enough to supply the hot water to the washer.



So you see no difference between a normal sized home and a McMansion?

Here a McMansion is 7 bedrooms 5 baths. Normal homes are 4 to 5 bedrooms up to 4 baths.


Tepid water where? Out of the tankless, or out of the shower head? Gas unit or electric? Public water with adequate water pressure, or well water? Current low flow shower heads, or high flow units? Pressure balanced shower valve or temperature controlled? Was this a McMansion?

I assume that you did more than just install a tankless unit without evaluating the full "system".

I always evaluate the system and make the proper recommendations, but the final decision lays with the home owner. These where all Gas units with city water 60 to 70 psi 1 to 1 1/2" water service, standard flow shower heads at 2.0 gpm. The valves are pressure and temperature controlled., Reason these people got tempered water was they where exceeding the demand of the single unit. They tried to have 3 showers go at once.

[Ladiesman271]

If you have more than one shower valve, each valve is allowed per the code to deliver 2.5 gpm to its total connected head. So if you have two shower valves that means that shower can have a total of 5 gpm. Lots of homes around here in their master bath have this arrangement, I have seen up to 4 mixing valves in one shower so if they turn on the overhead rain shower, body sprays set one and set 2 and the handheld shower, you are looking at 10 gpm.



Whoops, my bad!

McMansions again. I don't understand the attraction to those large and fancy bathrooms.

[Ladiesman271]

My mom still uses pure hot rinse cycle, but like I said her old plumbing she doesn't do it while someone is in the shower. My father likes to take super hot baths, after he fills the tub, then my mother starts the wash and her tanked unit recovered quick enough to supply the hot water to the washer.




I think that you meant to say that the clothing in the wash never complained that the rinse was only "tepid"?;)








I always evaluate the system and make the proper recommendations, but the final decision lays with the home owner. These where all Gas units with city water 60 to 70 psi 1 to 1 1/2" water service, standard flow shower heads at 2.0 gpm. The valves are pressure and temperature controlled., Reason these people got tempered water was they where exceeding the demand of the single unit. They tried to have 3 showers go at once.




Two showers is the limit that I have seen on the larger units with winter water temperatures coming in. Note that I would probably still have a tank type water heater if I did not need the floor space for other use. Still, I think the gas tankless is a better performer than the old tank heater was.

Like Clint Eastwood said " A man's got to know his water heaters limitations. Did I use 2 gallons of hot water per minute, or 4 gallons per minute"!

[Redwood]

You CAN"T supply 2 showers since according to your own posts
your tankwortless will only supply 2.09gpm flow rate

So you have already posted that your tankworthless will NOT supply more then 1 shower at a time

Me thinkest the Laddy Boy is tilting the meter hard over...

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2/Redwood39/lifeboatbsmeter.jpg

The inaccurate statements just ooze out of his mouth like when a bull lifts it's tail and every reply calling him on it just gets ignored as another piece of fertilizer takes it's place for us to reply to...

Laddy Boy is a legend in his own mind when it comes to tankless knowledge..

[Redwood]

Getting back to the basic question, the code limit for shower heads in this state is 2.5 GPM. If you use multiple shower heads in one shower stall, the total flow of all the shower heads added together can not exceed 2.5 gpm.

Wrong Again Buckoo!
The 2.5 is a per head limit!

[Redwood]

Again Laddy Boy I direct your attention to this post requiring an answer...


Another prevarication!

Simply put, my gas tankless water heater is specified to provide 2.09 GPM with a 90 degree temperature rise.

The coldest my incoming water has been is 40 degrees F.

The highest temperature of hot water allowed by the Massachusetts Plumbing code is 130 degrees F.

40 degrees incoming water temperature plus a 90 degree F temperature rise equals 130 degrees F.

The above meets the volume of hot water required for the intended use based on the lowest yearly incoming water temperatures provided to this residence (AKA winter season low).

Laddyman,
Are you a licensed plumber in the state of Mass?
Was your installation performed by you in the state of mass?

[Redwood]

And your reply to this?

Tank type water heaters are very unsafe. Full of germs and other nasty tidbits.

Since you mentioned something related to the cost of "proper" maintenance of tankless water heaters, here is a discussion about the "proper" maintenance of a tank type water heater.

http://www.nashville.gov/water/splash/h2o_heater.htm

Water heater maintenance

Water heaters, whether gas or electric, have become more complex and expensive. They also do not seem to last as long as they once did. This is one modern appliance that we couldn't live without, but is "out of sight, out of mind" until we have problems with it.

Hot water heater flushing

Maintenance books recommend that the hot water heater be drained (flushed) every six months, but few homeowners bother to do this. Often, it is put in an area that is not as accessible as other appliances. It may or may not be easy to drain, even though all heaters have a hose connection and faucet control at the bottom. This task is not only inconvenient, but often the washer and/or washer seat on the faucet must be replaced after draining. Sometimes the entire faucet assembly will have to be replaced. If this is not done correctly, the unit may leak at the faucet. Furthermore, the unit can be damaged while drained. Unless the customer is fully familiar with servicing these units, one should consult their service representatives at the gas or electric utility before undertaking these tasks.

Odors

A heater which is recycled off/on or left off for a period of non-heating may develop offensive odors from sulfur bacteria. The odor is hydrogen sulfide -- "rotten egg odor." This odorous water may be drawn back through cold water faucets as well as the hot water faucet.

Temperature settings

The heater thermostat should be set at a reasonable temperature. Scalding of infants and the elderly can be a real hazard, even when the temperature setting is within proper limits. Again, the user should consult with their energy supplier to have the unit set at a safe temperature.

DO NOT USE HOT WATER FROM THE TAP FOR DRINKING OR COOKING!

Because warm/hot water is much more corrosive of metals than cold water, one should not use the hot water tap as a source for drinking, cooking or dilution of infant formula. It can be high in metals such as aluminum, iron, lead, copper and zinc. The heater tank also tends to concentrate these metals and precipitate them in layers inside the heater tank. Many tanks have a metal "sacrificial anode." This is designed to wear down and can be an additional source of metals. While it may be a convenient shortcut, water from the heater is not an approved source of drinking water.

White plastic particles

It is not unusual for the white plastic (PVC) filler tube inside the heater to disintegrate and discharge small white particles to the faucet aerator screens. These particles can come through not only the hot water lines but the cold water lines as well. These particles may appear to be soft and crumbly, but a good test is to heat this material with a match. PVC will melt; minerals, such as calcium, will not.

Laddy Man,

You really reached deep up beyond your spincter muscle to pull out this batch of brilliance...

Flushing is required on tankless as well as tank type water heaters...

The odors you mention are caused by sulfur reducing bacteria. The locations these bacteria can set up shop is not limited to tank type water heaters. Wells and even faucets may have a odorous bacteria colony set up a home.

Water that has been heated has had its mineral content precipitated out of it and like RO water is hungry in terms of aggressiveness. It will even leach lead out of pre lead free solder joints... Your tankless is included in this aggresiveness. BTW RO water is a highly desired drinking water...

White plastic particles?? Put down the crack pipe Laddy! Snap out of it! For several years in the 90's water heaters by many manufacturers were made with a defective dip tub installed in them. All persons who had water heaters with this problem were notified as required by law of a class action lawsuit and last date for filing claims for relief under the settlement agreement was December 31, 2000.

[Redwood]

And you reply to this?

Health hazards from a tank type water heater!

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2094925

"There are two opposing risks when it comes to water temperature inside domestic water heaters; exposure to Legionella, the bacteria responsible for Legionnaires’ disease (pulmonary legionellosis), and the risk of scalding. In 1986, this dilemma was the subject of an editorial in the Canadian Medical Association Journal (1). A few months ago, Safe Kids Canada launched a media campaign aimed at preventing scalding by lowering domestic hot water temperature to 49°C at the tap (2). Among the means considered to reach this objective, Safe Kids Canada, with the support of some public health organizations, suggests and seems to favour lowering the temperature setting of domestic hot water heaters to 49°C."

"Like other authors (3,4), including the World Health Organization (WHO) who published a recent monograph on the Legionella problem in drinking water (3), we believe that there is evidence for the transmission of legionellosis through the drinking water distribution systems in private homes. This is a serious illness associated with high death rates (up to 12%). Primary groups at risk (the elderly, smokers, the immunocompromised and patients suffering from chronic respiratory illnesses), are groups who include a large proportion of the population at home. Although we support prevention against tap water scalds, we are against setting water heater thermostats at 49°C because we believe this could facilitate proliferation of Legionella inside the tank and increase the risk of legionellosis."

More of the same here:

http://customer.honeywell.com/WaterControl/Cultures/en-US/Prevention/Legionella+in+Your+Home/Problem.htm

Key Facts

According to the CDC, Legionella bacteria has a broad range of potential growth. “Legionella bacteria exist in the biofilm on the inside of pipes. Legionella grows rapidly between 77°F and 108°F.” Although it may seem feasible to raise the water temperature to 140°F, this leaves the water in the scald temperature range.” (22)

The International Plumbing Code Section 424.4: states, “Shower and tub/shower combination valves shall be balanced pressure, thermostatic, or a combination of balanced pressure/thermostatic valves that conform to the requirements of ASSE 1016 or CSA B125. Valves shall be equipped with a means to limit the maximum setting of the valve to 120°F, which shall be field adjustable in accordance with the manufacturers’ instructions.” (22)

“When a residential water heater is used, the codes do not limit the temperature to 140F, so it is not uncommon to find water at 160 degrees F.” This temperature will scald a child with third-degree burns in only .25 seconds. (22)

How common is Legionella bacteria in my hot water tank?

“In Quebec, a study of 211 homes (178 electric water heaters, 33 oil or gas water heaters) found Legionella contamination in 40% of electric water heaters. No water heaters using fossil fuels were contaminated. The authors concluded that, because of design variables, use of an electric water heater was the most significant factor leading to Legionella contamination in hot water in the home.” (28)

What are the affects?

Occurrences of Legionellosis have happened while people have been exposed to a infected water source and inhaled contaminated water: cooling towers, whirlpools, bathtubs, showers or even at a steamy faucet. Legionella has been shown to most greatly affect people whose immune system is low. For example in a hospital setting, patients that are most susceptible to Legionella infection include: cancer patients who are in radiation or chemotherapy treatments, organ-transplants, HIV, elderly and surgical patients. Severe Legionnaires’ disease has an overall mortality rate of 10% to 30% (1-3), and 30% to 50% of patients require admission to an intensive care unit (1-4) Additional source: Center for Disease Control and Prevention.

Now you have really outdone yourself in your twisting of facts and information resources. Your post is so full of incoherant ramblings of quoted misapplied information that a person reasonably educated could hardly understand it.

I propose that we bestow the title of "Google Boy" upon you.

This is a title that we give to those with a total lack of subject knowledge that manage to post "copy & paste" a long post that looks very knowledgable on the surface until a knowledgable person attempts to read the assembled drivel.

Simply put Legionella Bacteria is present in water. Usually in small quantities that have a miniscule chance of causing a problem. When water is stored at a temperature in the ideal growth range the small amount present can multiply.

The use of a tankless water heater will not do anything to the bacteria to kill it and infact if there is a recirculation system may keep it in the ideal growth range just like a tank type water heater.

The solution is simple for a tank type water heater and that is to raise the temperature in the tank to 140 degrees where the Legionella Bacteria will be killed then youe a tempering valve on the outlet to lower the temperature to 120 degrees for safe use.

There it is a few simple paragraphs that said more than all the drivel you posted...
Could it be that I know my subject matter and am qualified to post about it?

[Ladiesman271]

One thing I pride myself on is doing things to code.




From what I can tell, it is clear that you do take pride in doing things to code!

[SewerRatz]

Now back to "the code". Our friend Mr. Rat (a professional plumber who takes pride in following the code) installed a tankless sytem in a home that had three full bathrooms. He knew that a single tankless system would not supply "hot water" to all three showers when they were run simultaneously. He made the customer sign a disclaimer for that job. Obviously, the installation was permitted and inspected. Obviously, Mr. Rat knew that while the installation met code, it would not provide "hot water" to all fixtures at the same time.


So now the plumbing instructor should answer some serious questions.

Was Mr. Rat considered to be a hack?

Was Mr. Rat following "the code"?

Was the local plumbing inspector incompetent (or worse)?

If Mr. Rat has violated "the code", his customer signed disclaimer will not hold up in court since the agreement violates state law.


Just wondering if your interpretation of "the code" is a valid one. Maybe you should try to have Mr. Rat's plumbing license pulled for not "following the code"!

Sad part about Tankless heaters is the code does not address properly sizing the heater as of yet. Having them singing the disclaimer that I had informed them the system the want installed is not the one they where advised by me to install. It has help up in court as part of the contract, and some of the people did have me come in and install the system as advised. Others changed their usage habits as well as installed flow restrictors everywhere. 1 gpm shower heads .5 gpm aerators and so on. Just so the single unit can handle their demand. Once the code address this issue then I can tell the customer sorry I can not install this the way you want it installed.

Now for restaurants that go tankless do a hybrid set up there. We have two units one direct feeding the bathrooms each with a .5 gpm aerator. The second tank is tied into a 180 Gallon storage tank with recirculating pump and a thermostat on the tank maintaining the water to the required 160 degree water if they use a chemical sanitizer, or to 180 degrees if they just use a hot water rinse on their dishwasher. Granted the second set up is a tankless boiler running at 400,000 BTU but can handle the large demand of the restaurant.

[Redwood]

Laddy Boy's Credibility? http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2/Redwood39/laugh-1.gif
Answer the Questions!

[Ladiesman271]

Ladiesman,

I'm not against tankless heaters (I may go tankless myself next time due to severe space restrictions) but I do have a question on your numbers.

You mentioned that your system is rated at 2.09 GPM output at, I believe, 75 degree temp rise and you have also stated that you can run multiple showers at the same time.

That doesn't seem to add up and I'm wondering how you achieve this? Given that a low flow showerhead is rated at a higher GPM that the unit, how can you run two at once?

The only thing I can think of is that each shower uses some cold and some hot so you might be able to squeak by with two running but it still doesn't seem quite right, particularly for those who might like hot showers.

Also, how do you find it works when you have someone in the shower and a sink calls for hot water on full? (filling sink to do dishes, for example) Is it able to keep up?



As a follow up to that question, I measured everything with that scenario.

1. Typical water temperature that I prefer was measured at 105 degrees. No surprise there.

2. Incoming water temperature is around 42 degrees (winter low).

3. Incoming water pressure with nothing turned on is 71 psi.

4. Tankless heater is an older Aguastar gas tankless with 125,000 BTU maximum.

5. Thermostat set to 120 degrees nominal.

6. 2.5 gpm flow shower head, standard old style three knob valve system.

7. 1.0 gpm maximum flow from kitchen fixture.

8. Normal shower setting (105 degrees) would be about 1/3 cold mixed with 2/3 hot with winter incoming water temperature (42 degrees).

9. Fixed 3.5 gpm flow restrictor was not removed from tankless heater.



I did perform a hot water capacity test in the manner that you described.

1. Hot water in the shower set to full ON with no cold mixed in.

2. Hot water in the kitchen sink set to full ON with no cold water mixed in.

3. Ran water to cool down the tankless unit unit until a stable temperature was observed.

4. Temperature of the hot water in shower and at the kitchen sink went down to 98 degrees and stayed there.

[SewerRatz]

Sad part about Tankless heaters is the code does not address properly sizing the heater as of yet.

sjsmithjr has made a post in anther thread http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showpost.php?p=184390&postcount=78 that made me do some more research in the Illinois plumbing code.

The Illinois plumbing code does not address the proper sizing of a tankless water heater directly like Florida does. But there are a couple parts that do help determine the proper size. For showers the maximum temperature is 115 degrees. For kitchen sinks the minimum temperature is 120 degrees. So with that in the code it addresses that the tankless system must be properly sized, or designed to be able to deliver these temperatures. With this information I contacted an Inspector and he informed me that he has failed installations that do not deliver 120 degree water to the kitchen sink while other fixtures are running. So now I need to write a couple letters to a few people explaining to them that they ether have to install the second tankless unit or ensure they are using low flow devices on their shower and sinks to ensure their single unit can meet the code properly. As for future installs I will insist on properly sizing the system for the demand to meet the code.