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Master Brian
01-28-2009, 09:09 AM
As some may know from previous posts, I am needing to re-wire my house. I am planning on taking the Homeowners test, which in my local allows me to rewire my house and pull the permit to do the work.

I do have some things, I'd like clarified before I get too far into the process. I have been looking through the 2008 NEC and I am trying to do a floorplan layout.

1) I need two 20amp small appliance circuits, correct? Question is, can those supply other receptacles? i.e. Can these circuits, which will be supplying power to the countertops, supply the other outlets in the kitchen. The ones that are lower down the wall.... According to 210.52 of NEC, it looks as if they can.

2) It looks like the small appliance circuit can feed the receptacle that powers a gas range. Am I correct? Again...According to 210.52 of NEC, it looks as if they can.

3) Bathroom. This looks to need to be a 20amp circuit, independent of all others. Correct? What is confusing is are they wanting

4) What appliances are supposed to be on dedicated circuits? My understanding is the furnace, fridge, sump, washing machine. Any others? What about dishwasher? I ask, because I haven't seen anything yet, but hear things. I've never had a house that had the dishwasher on a dedicated circuit, nor have my furnaces been. In fact, currently my furnace and sump are on the same circuit.

I'm sure I'll have a few other questions as time goes on....

Thanks

Billy_Bob
01-28-2009, 09:39 AM
First of all what code does your area go by and does your area / state have modifications to these rules?

Maybe you go by 2008 NEC, but there is a booklet for your state/area which lists modifications? Might be just a few things listed on a web site for your city/state.

So ask your local electrical inspector's office which NEC they go by [for where *you* live - city might be different from rural!], and ask if they have amendments to these rules and where you can get a copy of these amendments.

For example in some areas a sump pump in a garage is required to be on a GFCI. Other areas have modified this rule so that a GFCI is not required.

jwelectric
01-28-2009, 02:29 PM
As some may know from previous posts, I am needing to re-wire my house. I am planning on taking the Homeowners test, which in my local allows me to rewire my house and pull the permit to do the work.

I do have some things, I'd like clarified before I get too far into the process. I have been looking through the 2008 NEC and I am trying to do a floorplan layout.

1) I need two 20amp small appliance circuits, correct? Question is, can those supply other receptacles? i.e. Can these circuits, which will be supplying power to the countertops, supply the other outlets in the kitchen. The ones that are lower down the wall.... According to 210.52 of NEC, it looks as if they can. This is the correct section to be looking at. Read carefully (B)(1)


2) It looks like the small appliance circuit can feed the receptacle that powers a gas range. Am I correct? Again...According to 210.52 of NEC, it looks as if they can. Again look at (B)(2) Exception 2


3) Bathroom. This looks to need to be a 20amp circuit, independent of all others. Correct? What is confusing is are they wanting This is an incomplete sentence and I can only assume what you are asking so maybe it would be good for you to assume what my answer is.


4) What appliances are supposed to be on dedicated circuits? My understanding is the furnace, fridge, sump, washing machine. Any others? What about dishwasher? I ask, because I haven't seen anything yet, but hear things. I've never had a house that had the dishwasher on a dedicated circuit, nor have my furnaces been. In fact, currently my furnace and sump are on the same circuit. See section 210.23(A)(1) and (2)


I'm sure I'll have a few other questions as time goes on....

Thanks Then I would ask that you complete your thought before posting

220/221
01-28-2009, 03:09 PM
Helpful huh? ^




Can these circuits, which will be supplying power to the countertops, supply the other outlets in the kitchen.

Only the refer and gas stove.

20 amp to the bathroom recep.

Dedicated circuits to the DW/Disp, built in micro, washer. Don't know about sump pump. Certainly not a bad idea.

Get a 40 space panel and run as many dedicated circuits as you want. The two kitchen circuits are minimum. In my personal houses I always run several kit ctop circuits and install double duplex receps.

Master Brian
01-28-2009, 03:27 PM
Helpful huh? ^





Only the refer and gas stove.

20 amp to the bathroom recep.

Dedicated circuits to the DW/Disp, built in micro, washer. Don't know about sump pump. Certainly not a bad idea.

Get a 40 space panel and run as many dedicated circuits as you want. The two kitchen circuits are minimum. In my personal houses I always run several kit ctop circuits and install double duplex receps.
So you can run the fridge off the small appliance circuit?

As for the DW/Disp, would it be ok to run those on a small appliance circuit or not? Looks like you say they should be independent. Does a DW really have that high of a demand? Like I said, they've always been on other circuits everywhere I've lived, but I've never lived in a house newer than the late 60's. Never had an issue either. I do want to be within NEC code, especially when I submit a plan to the inspector.

I can see that the sump might be nice on an independent circuit, but the problem I see with that is IF that circuit trips, when would you likely find out? My thought, when you get a flood! I know a battery backup alarm would solve that.... Like I think I said, mine is on the same circuit as my furnace. I'm told that is wrong and will consider changing, but it does work and obviously has for some time. That's why I question it....

As for the bathroom, didn't mean to make that incomplete, got distracted and didn't realize I hadn't finished! woops! The question is, NEC says 20amp independent circuit, with no other receptacles, but later it seems to say their can be other receptacles if in the same bathroom. Is that correct. Don't have the portions of the code in front of me.

drick
01-28-2009, 03:54 PM
So you can run the fridge off the small appliance circuit?

Absolutely! Run the wire from the panel to the fridge outlet first, then onto the kitchen counter. This is because you don't want your fridge to end up on a GFI protected circuit.



As for the DW/Disp, would it be ok to run those on a small appliance circuit or not? Looks like you say they should be independent. Does a DW really have that high of a demand? Like I said, they've always been on other circuits everywhere I've lived, but I've never lived in a house newer than the late 60's. Never had an issue either. I do want to be within NEC code, especially when I submit a plan to the inspector.

Most dishwashers today have a heating element inside it to increase the water temp during the wash and for drying. 1500 watts is not unusual. I'd run a dedicated 12/2 to the dishwasher. Put the disposal on its own circuit. Some inspectors let you get away with placing it on the d/w circuit, but if your not 100% sure just run the dedicated circuit. Microwaves also require a dedicated circuit.



I can see that the sump might be nice on an independent circuit, but the problem I see with that is IF that circuit trips, when would you likely find out? My thought, when you get a flood! I know a battery backup alarm would solve that.... Like I think I said, mine is on the same circuit as my furnace. I'm told that is wrong and will consider changing, but it does work and obviously has for some time. That's why I question it....

The furnace should be on its own circuit. So should the sump pump. Just because it works doesn't mean it will meet code. Add a sump pit alarm.



As for the bathroom, didn't mean to make that incomplete, got distracted and didn't realize I hadn't finished! woops! The question is, NEC says 20amp independent circuit, with no other receptacles, but later it seems to say their can be other receptacles if in the same bathroom. Is that correct. Don't have the portions of the code in front of me.

You can connect all bathroom OUTLETS in the house to one 12/2 circuit. This circuit cannot feed lighting in the bathroom (or anything else anywhere) UNLESS you have a dedicated 12/2 circuit for that particular bathroom - then you can add the bathroom lighting as well. In new construction it is common to put 2-3 bathrooms on one 12/2 circuit. In a remodel you should do whatever method is easiest for you.

-rick

Chris75
01-28-2009, 04:49 PM
Microwaves also require a dedicated circuit.

Code reference?



So should the sump pump. Just because it works doesn't mean it will meet code. Add a sump pit alarm.

Code reference?

Scuba_Dave
01-28-2009, 06:29 PM
I follow code but I also follow common sense:

The fridge I put on a dedicated circuit. I ran 12-2 in case we ever have a fridge that needs it (doubtful) but its on a 15a circuit

My sump pump is in the laundry room & is on the laundry circuit
Same circuit also had a small fridge, 11 cu ft freeze & a dehumidifier
I ran a separate circuit for the sm fridge & the freezer

I will have (3) kitchen small appliance circuits, plus a 4th in the sunroom off the kitchen.

I run a dedicated 20a circuit to each bathroom
Even on the 2nd floor where the bathroom are back to back
Wife's hairdryer is 1500 watts - some are more

My furnace is also on a dedicated circuit

TedL
01-29-2009, 04:26 AM
One of the major advantages of DIY electrical is how cheap it is to add a circuit. For $10 or $20, you can have a separate 20 amp for each of the following: the refrig, DW, disposal, microwave, and any other 1000 or 1200 watt small or large appliance that sits ready to use in your kitchen. (For my planning, the small appliance circuits are for the things that get dug out of the cabinet.) And then I'd run four 20 amp/GFI small appliance circuits to supply the kitchen. Lots of duplex receptacles behind the counters make for cheap convenience & safety. Additional 20 amp to the DR for cooking/warming trays.
Unless your kitchen is far from your service panel, home runs to the panel should be about as easy as daisy chaining receptacles. If far, consider a sub panel for the kitchen.
As frequently said, codes are minimum. In the kitchen, I find minimum to be a small fraction of desirable for convenience, functionality, and, yes, safety. Few if any other $200-$250 upgrades (for a DIY) will gaive the ROI in convenience.

GabeS
01-29-2009, 05:51 AM
The dedicated circuits are not only required because of watt usage. It's also for servicing. If your dishwasher breaks and you need to shut off the breaker to cut the power and it takes you three days to fix it, do you want to shut your fridge down for three days as well?

Also, how do you quote portions of posts like that?

Scuba_Dave
01-29-2009, 06:02 AM
Also, how do you quote portions of posts like that?

I think it's copy, paste & edit out parts
That's how I have done it

GabeS
01-29-2009, 06:23 AM
So I don't hit the quote button?

Scuba_Dave
01-29-2009, 07:25 AM
So I don't hit the quote button?

Yes - you do use the quote button

But then once the quote is up, copy & paste it for the number of answers you will post. Then edit each quote specific to the question & the answer you will provide

copied quote from above

So I don't hit the quote button?

Yes


So I don't hit the quote button?

But I usually click it ;)

GabeS
01-29-2009, 07:28 AM
[QUOTE=Scuba_Dave;181688]I follow code but I also follow common sense:

The fridge I put on a dedicated circuit. I ran 12-2 in case we ever have a fridge that needs it (doubtful) but its on a 15a circuit

This is just a test.

[QUOTE=Scuba_Dave;181688]I follow code but I also follow common sense:

My sump pump is in the laundry room & is on the laundry circuit
Same circuit also had a small fridge, 11 cu ft freeze & a dehumidifier
I ran a separate circuit for the sm fridge & the freezer

This is also just a test.

[QUOTE=Scuba_Dave;181688]I follow code but I also follow common sense:

I will have (3) kitchen small appliance circuits, plus a 4th in the sunroom off the kitchen.

Another test.

GabeS
01-29-2009, 07:29 AM
Do you see what is happenening? It's not putting them in blue boxes?

PeteD
01-29-2009, 07:32 AM
Code reference?

Not sure about the code, but the microwave can be a huge draw. We used to trip our breaker all the time before it was on its own circuit.

Billy_Bob
01-29-2009, 08:18 AM
When you hit quote, it has an initial quote with brackets, message, then a bracket, slash, QUOTE, and bracket.

Don't remove the last slash QUOTE, type below that.

jadnashua
01-29-2009, 08:37 AM
You'd have to check, but I think a laundry circuit is limited to just the WM and (if gas) dryer; nothing else is supposed to be connected to it.

GabeS
01-29-2009, 08:56 AM
When you hit quote, it has an initial quote with
.


Like this.





Don't remove the last slash QUOTE, type below that.

And this.

Woo hoo

220/221
01-29-2009, 09:08 AM
Originally Posted by drick

Microwaves also require a dedicated circuit.

Built in microwaves.

In some cases vent hoods require a dedicated circuit. I assume because so many people are switching them out to micro/vent combos.

Master Brian
01-29-2009, 10:05 AM
Built in microwaves.

In some cases vent hoods require a dedicated circuit. I assume because so many people are switching them out to micro/vent combos.


My understanding on the microwave was that if built in it needed a seperate circuit, if not, then it could use the small appliance circuit. Hmmm....

Thanks for the idea on the fridge for being 1st, whomever said that. I think I'm going to have 3 dedicated circuits for my kitchen area. I will probably try to include the fridge and possibly the d/w on those. The fridge will be on a wall, with only two 24" wide countertops, so not much room for appliances, but that will hopefully meet code. The D/W will be in a walk-in pantry, so not many appliances will be in use there either.

My bath is on two circuits. 1(20amp) feeds all receptacles and a pair of wall sconces, the other(15amp) feeds the ceiling light and exhaust fan along with the main floor bedroo and hall lights.

I'll try to figure out the sump/furnace and laundry area.

GabeS
01-29-2009, 11:17 AM
Kitchen should have more than 3 circuits.

As someone else said, just run extra. Code is minimum.

I believe bath should have GFI on seperate circuit with nothing else, unless one circuit covers the entire bath ONLY. You could run to GFI's of seperate bathrooms, but only if that's the only thing on the circuit.

Master Brian
01-29-2009, 12:06 PM
Kitchen should have more than 3 circuits.

As someone else said, just run extra. Code is minimum.

I believe bath should have GFI on seperate circuit with nothing else, unless one circuit covers the entire bath ONLY. You could run to GFI's of seperate bathrooms, but only if that's the only thing on the circuit.


Really? Why do you think it needs more than 3? Not saying 3 receptacles, I'm saying 3 circuits. Maybe I should add, this isn't a HUGE Modern Kitchen. The main area of the kitchen will have the fridge, a gas range and hopefully a vent for the stove. Vent is questionable because of lack of ceiling height above stove. Will figure that out when I tear out a sofit in ceiling. I'm also not sure about a garbage disposal in the main sink, because I have a marble apron sink and if I can't get a good answer as to whether it is safe to hang one, I won't. Yes, the occaisonaly appliance will be brought out, but not enough countertop space for much. I'm thinking 2 circuits for this room. One for each wall.

Then I have a current laundry area that is going to be converted to a small walk-in pantry. That is the 3rd circuit and will house the d/w, countertop microwave another sink, with disposal, and a few appliances. This isn't large enough to do lots of work in, so it won't have many appliances being run often in there. Maybe a toaster. I may add a 4th, depending upon the d/w I buy. Hmmm....

The bath is one circuit, with nothing else on that circuit. One GFCI controls all the receptacles in the bath. Again, not a huge bath and it is 20amp.

Scuba_Dave
01-29-2009, 12:26 PM
I run based on what could be or possible needs
We have a counter Microwave - 1100 watts
Toaster oven - 1500 watts
Toaster - 800 watts
Coffee maker - 1200 watts or more
Crock pot - 1000+ watts - we have 3 going during a get together
Pancake griddle - 1000+ watts
Can opener - 100 watts
Mixer - cakes, potatoes = 450 watts
Think of everything else that may be plugged in: TV, radio, laptop, popcorn maker, ice cream maker, blenders (550w),

You really don't need a gourmet kitchen, we had 3 blenders going one summer :D

Do you really want to risk someone plugging something into the same outlet as your fridge & kicking the breaker?

I figure the wiring could last 50 years or longer. So it's also about a future owners use. I only want to do electric once

I'm looking at 7 total + 1 more in the sunroom
I'll have 3 small appliance circuits
Fridge
Dishwasher
Lights are on another circuit
Microwave will have its own circuit - it will be in a cabinet
Sunroom - open to the kitchen, we could have a table out there with crockpots, coffee maker etc

sjsmithjr
01-29-2009, 12:52 PM
Really? Why do you think it needs more than 3? Not saying 3 receptacles, I'm saying 3 circuits. Maybe I should add, this isn't a HUGE Modern Kitchen.

My home is a 1948 Bungalow of less than 1000 square feet which I renovated three years ago. The kitchen measures 9x13 which includes small eat in bar. It might suprise you learn that I have three circuits for the countertops (including the bar), a lighting circuit, a dedicated circuit for the range hood (which came later), a dedicated circuit for the refrigerator, a dedicated cicruit for an electric range, and a dedicated circuit for the dishwasher. I do not have a garbage diposal, but we pulled the wire anyhow. We also pulled the wire for undercounter lights.

I suggest you start with the requirements (i.e. code), add what it is recommended (i.e. a exhausting range hood over a gas range, circuit for the refrigerator, etc.), and go ahead a pull the wire for upgrades like a disposal now and whatever you do pull your permits and talk to the AHJ as soon as possible.

"This doesn't look like the usual DIY job, nice work." is not a bad thing to hear from inspectors and appraisers. The added value, safety, and convienence are worth going the extra mile if you ask me.

Master Brian
01-29-2009, 07:25 PM
You guys make some good points. I'll look into more circuits. I still have plenty of room to go in my panel. I'm not sure if it is a 30slot or 40slot panel, but I do have a subfeed in basement and in the garage and I only buy the double breakers, since all my empty slots take those.

Code will definately dictate what I do.....then I'll look at the appliances that would be used on each circuit and do some math!

Billy_Bob
01-30-2009, 01:57 AM
...You really don't need a gourmet kitchen, we had 3 blenders going one summer :D

Now that sounds like a fun little get together! :D

jwelectric
01-30-2009, 08:15 AM
My understanding on the microwave was that if built in it needed a seperate circuit, if not, then it could use the small appliance circuit. Hmmm....

Thanks for the idea on the fridge for being 1st, whomever said that. I think I'm going to have 3 dedicated circuits for my kitchen area. I will probably try to include the fridge and possibly the d/w on those. The fridge will be on a wall, with only two 24" wide countertops, so not much room for appliances, but that will hopefully meet code. The D/W will be in a walk-in pantry, so not many appliances will be in use there either.

My bath is on two circuits. 1(20amp) feeds all receptacles and a pair of wall sconces, the other(15amp) feeds the ceiling light and exhaust fan along with the main floor bedroo and hall lights.

I'll try to figure out the sump/furnace and laundry area.

Brian

In the original post you said;
I have been looking through the 2008 NEC and I am trying to do a floorplan layout. Thanks

If this is a true statement then all you need is the section number so you can see the verbiage of the code for yourself.
Look closely at 210.23(A)(1) and (2). You will see that the idea of
I will probably try to include the fridge and possibly the d/w on those. might be a bad idea.

sjsmithjr
01-30-2009, 08:21 AM
Last time my hubby worked on the dishwasher, he unplugged it... is yours hardwired in?

Mine is, and according to the local inspector, it had to be for my particular installation. For a corded dishwasher, the requirement was that the receptacle be located in accessible location, which he interpreted as being under the kitchen sink. The cord could be no more 4 feet in length (which I think is a local requirement). Hence mine had to be hardwired.

Chris75
01-30-2009, 01:15 PM
Mine is, and according to the local inspector, it had to be for my particular installation. For a corded dishwasher, the requirement was that the receptacle be located in accessible location, which he interpreted as being under the kitchen sink. The cord could be no more 4 feet in length (which I think is a local requirement). Hence mine had to be hardwired.


The cord can be longer than 4', it can ONLY be 3' to 4' from the actual plug to the plane of the rear of the appliance, so in other words, since the dishwasher is 24" deep, I could install a 6' cord and meet code.


422.16 Flexible Cords.
(2) Built-in Dishwashers and Trash Compactors
Built-in dishwashers and trash compactors shall be permitted to be cord-and-plug connected with a flexible cord identified as suitable for the purpose in the installation instructions of the appliance manufacturer where all of the following conditions are met:

(1) The flexible cord shall be terminated with a grounding-type attachment plug.
Exception: A listed dishwasher or trash compactor distinctly marked to identify it as protected by a system of double insulation, or its equivalent, shall not be required to be terminated with a grounding-type attachment plug.
(2) The length of the cord shall be 0.9 m to 1.2 m (3 ft to 4 ft) measured from the face of the attachment plug to the plane of the rear of the appliance.
(3) Receptacles shall be located to avoid physical damage to the flexible cord.
(4) The receptacle shall be located in the space occupied by the appliance or adjacent thereto.
(5) The receptacle shall be accessible.

sjsmithjr
01-30-2009, 02:30 PM
Just goes to show there's the NEC and there's the local interpretation and amendments. The AHJ held me to 4 feet total length and the receptacle had to be under the sink.

I do appreciate the clarification as to current NEC requirements, however.

Thanks Chris.

Chris75
01-30-2009, 05:58 PM
Just goes to show there's the NEC and there's the local interpretation and amendments. The AHJ held me to 4 feet total length and the receptacle had to be under the sink.

I do appreciate the clarification as to current NEC requirements, however.

Thanks Chris.

People make mistakes, nobody is perfect, but I do try to educate.... glad you learned something today. :)

RayP
01-31-2009, 04:44 PM
If I could redo my complete house rewire, I would use a feeder and put a panel near the kitchen. In fact, I will likely do this this summer. This feeder is a 240vac line, at least 10awg, better 8 awg. You can then run seperate ckts to each appliance, without having to pull the ckts all the way from the main service panel. 30A or 50A will never be used at the same time, so do some thinking on what you can expect to be the most appliances on at one time. Balance the load by putting the ckts strategically on both legs. So microwave on one leg, refrig on the other, as these two are most likely to be on at the same time.

Scuba_Dave
01-31-2009, 07:03 PM
That can depend on the kitchen & where the main panel is located
I don't like a panel in the kitchen anywhere near a sink (in the room)
Something about the wife having dripping wet hands & kicking out a breaker & going to turn it back on...or a child
My panel is only about 5' away under the kitchen
I could see this (sub panel) for a big kitchen

Master Brian
02-02-2009, 08:27 AM
Luckily my panel is actually fairly close to the kitchen, about 6-8' down a half flight of stairs, so running wires will be easy.

IF my fridge and d/w are on the same circuit as other receptacles they won't be on the same circuit as each either.

Right now, the fridge is on the same circuit as the m/w, some basement receptacles and some bedroom receptacles. I even think it might be on the same circuit as the upstairs bath, but I haven't confirmed that. I just know the previous owner had told me if his wife ran the hairdryer and the microwave at the same time the breaker would trip..... Haven't had that, but I've also changed the panel from a tiny 60amp panel to a large 200amp panel.

The toaster and microwave DO trip the circuit....