separate forum for tankless heaters

[nhmaster]

I think we need a separate spot for the tankless crowd. Here is a subject that keeps comming up over and over, like bad Mexican food. :D

[Sandpiper Plumbing]

I agree. It'll be the perfect place for me to post all the pics I have of incorrectly installed tankless heaters, swollen/split pipes, heaters that exploded, and the resulting damaged caused by poor installations.

[Cookie]

Yeah, but why do you have to keep answering?

[frenchie]

I think we need a separate spot for the tankless crowd. Here is a subject that keeps comming up over and over, like bad Mexican food. :D

Easy solution: Find all the threads about tankless heaters. Bookmark the lot.

When someone posts a question about tankless heaters, post the list of links to all those other threads.

[nhmaster]

Cookie. I jsut can't help myself. It's like a moth to a flame. :D

[Cookie]

ha ha ha ha, that is funny. (and understandable) :)

[Dunbar Plumbing]

I talked a guy out of one today. He was going to put in a bosch.

He came at me hard core with stats and I blungeoned this guy with more technical speak than he could handle.


Here's where I nailed him to the wall:



Do you know what the GPM flow is @ 60 degree rise?


He got stumped, then I explained it in backwards fashion what it all meant, then he freaked out.

I asked if he drained his heater, no.

I asked if he knew of anyone that could properly service the unit when it fails, no.

I came at him with the probables...that's all.

The price to install would near a grand, and he did the measure of 10 years to see if he'd even get that back.


When I told him that most likely the issue with reduced GPM flow when there's a hot demand, that was the end of that discussion.

He was buying a tankless under a grand, and telling me 1/2" for the gas instead of 3/4" was telling. He got me off the internet, and I hammered that information at him like he needed to hear it.

Being 18 degrees outside is the perfect example of "extreme temperature" that any water heating device has to overcome.



Sooner or later, I'm going to start lying to the customer and telling them it's the best thing since canned spam.
It's about time I start getting paid for all my time talking about these wonders of joy hanging on the wall.

If I take pictures of the install, I'll get a ton of work out of it.

Oh wait, I'm on tv right now selling my soul! Put down the mic now!

[Cookie]

There are so many people on my road who have the tankless you wouldn't believe. Some has had them for years, some a few years and some a couple of years, but, none of them, and I am being honest has ever had a complaint. I think to most of them money is not an issue. Just my 2 cents worth here, for with me, it is all I can afford. :)

[Redwood]

There are a lot of people that have tankless here that aren't cpmplaining...
But,
When you ask them about specific characterisics of tankless, such as minimum flow to turn on, flow changes with rate of rise etc. They finally admit to it not being all it was cracked up to be and if they had to make the choice over again they would do it differently.

Sometimes people have difficulty admitting they made a $2-3K goof!

[Cookie]

Well, they still smell good, they must be using it and getting clean, :D

[Cookie]

Now, I know their are those of you out there (my moth man friend) lol, who will not want to hear this, but, since, I am also, one of the moths I feel drawn to the flame too. There is a heat wave going on here, and since it actually hit 25F here, I feel like running outside and start to mow the snow, I mean the grass. My neighbor's are already probably out there.

I live on the greatest road in the world. I love this community of about 75 people, and we all live on this road. Seventy-four of us are Italian and one is Irish. I will let you guess who the minority is. I am so lucky to live here I can't imagine living anywhere else, it is like I am living in the movie, The Burbs. (Tom Hanks you know) I have very funny neighbors who I have grown to love and attach silly affectionate nicknames for a reason.

We have MeatBall Mike. He is my favorite. He has had a tankless for years. Now, my other neighbor is Mighty Regis. I love him too. He is 84, has had numerous stents put in, is married, and flirts with me on a steady daily basis. It is innocent and sweet, and it makes him feel manly. I sometimes, wink an eye back...;)

Now, Meatball Mike and Mighty Regis builds things together. They only start very late at night, and using circular saws and what-have-you , they work by moonlight and one small light. One night they were out there building a shed . I was laying in bed and I heard Mighty Regis, yelling, " Mike, mike, stop stop!" I could hear the banging coming from a hammer, and then, next heard Mighty Regis yelling in pain. In a very deep Italian broken English voice, I could hear Meatball Mike yelling, " Oh, I so sorry Regis, I so sorry..." Mike, wears hearing aids in both ears.

I was laughing but very concerned about them too, so, I kept the first aid kit nearby the phone with our other neighbor's phone number, Margie, who was in her day a paramedic. Margie, is a pip and truly, doesn't look in her eighty's and flies about her riding lawn mower like a teenager riding a horse.

Our neighborhood, our road is a pleasure to live on, I love talking to the them and know them very well. They took pride in welcoming an irish family with open arms. I have sat many a day in Meatball Mikes kitchen, learning how to make them the italian way. I would make one, eat one, make one, eat one.
We share the land together with our gardens, and this one day, I will out there picking some zukes and Mike was out in his. I yelled over in my English with some Italian words I picked up thru the years of living here, if he wanted some zukes.
He said, " throw over fence, I catch". Since the fence was 8 ft and the zukes grew to football size, I said I would bring them over. He kept saying, " no no, you throw, throw" Throw I did, and hit him square between the eyes, almost knocking him out. We laughed, and he said, "yeah, next time you walk, you walk."
This is the type of neighborhood you love you get to know the people, they get to know you. Another neighbor owns a large italian restaurant and when my husband died, brought chicken, pastas, salads, breads, enough to feed the 150 people that were at my house the day he was buried. They are good people.
Because of the way we are here, we take care of each other, I can honestly, tell you, that the tankless heaters must be working well, because if not, I would hear about it for sure. We talk to each other all the time about everything. Just my 2 cents worth, because that is all I can ever afford.

:p

[SewerRatz]

Everyone I know that has one says they are creat... except...

I think the issue is they spent so much on these they do not want to admit they spent to much on the latest fad, and not to have it properly sized for their needs as well realizing the other costs of maintaining these new fad items.

[master plumber mark]

Everyone I know that has one says they are creat... except...

I think the issue is they spent so much on these they do not want to admit they spent to much on the latest fad, and not to have it properly sized for their needs as well realizing the other costs of maintaining these new fad items.

That is so very true
no one wants to admit that they made a mistake
so they will deny it till the day they die........

[nhmaster]

I have a funny feeling the new administration will be a good example of this phenomanon. :D

[master plumber mark]

I have a funny feeling the new administration will be a good example of this phenomanon. :D


Nothing new for any politician....

George Bush will go to his grave never admitting
or fessing up the mess he help make of everything

[master plumber mark]

your opinions please....

Went a plumbing event with our supply house
yesterday and they had this little jewell on display...

Its not as small as a tankless, but certainly appears
to be far less complicated..

I did not get that feeling of dread and disaster when I got near it.
it kind of gave me warm fuzzies...

I ....I...dont know why.....


but it sort of reminds me of a power vent hybrid

sells for around $2200. and is much easier to install
comes with a 6 gallon reserve tank so you dont have hot water gaps
and has a pvc chimmney like a power vent...
the unit is 86% efficinet..much higher than the tankless

Has anyone tangled with one yet???

people in our town are installing the Takagi for over 4500
and it does only half of what this can do...
this unit takes the place of two tank type heaters
and can be used for radiant heating , ect ect...

I think I would prefer it over the Takagi,
and certainly the bosch and nortiz

I see it as an alternative to installing a tankless
and except for the size issue it appears to have the
tankless beat hands down



http://www.eternalwaterheater.com/files/img/technology/Technology01.jpg


http://www.eternalwaterheater.com/technology/


http://eternaltools.eternalwaterheater.com/gu26-animation.html

[Redwood]

your opinions please....

Went a plumbing event with our supply house
yesterday and they had this little jewell on display...

Its not as small as a tankless, but certainly appears
to be far less complicated..

I did not get that feeling of dread and disaster when I got near it.
it kind of gave me warm fuzzies...

I ....I...dont know why.....


but it sort of reminds me of a power vent hybrid

sells for around $2200. and is much easier to install
comes with a 6 gallon reserve tank so you dont have hot water gaps
and has a pvc chimmney like a power vent...
the unit is 86% efficinet..much higher than the tankless

Has anyone tangled with one yet???

people in our town are installing the Takagi for over 4500
and it does only half of what this can do...
this unit takes the place of two tank type heaters
and can be used for radiant heating , ect ect...

I think I would prefer it over the Takagi,
and certainly the bosch and nortiz

I see it as an alternative to installing a tankless
and except for the size issue it appears to have the
tankless beat hands down



http://www.eternalwaterheater.com/files/img/technology/Technology01.jpg


http://www.eternalwaterheater.com/technology/


http://eternaltools.eternalwaterheater.com/gu26-animation.html

That is one sweet little unit Mark!
I have yet to put one in but, I'm like you, I get the warm fuzzies from it!

[Cass]

I am trying to call them to ask a few questions right now but they don't open till 9:00 my time...but they do have a 24 hr. hot line to get repair parts ordered...:)...I wonder why they need to be doing that 24/7/365...:eek:

[SewerRatz]

That looks a lot like the newer boilers I been seeing at the hydronic shops. Navien has duel heat exchangers with a 2 or 3 gallon buffer tank PVC venting and is 98% efficient. Also the "A" models have a built in recirc pump. I think they are starting to get things right. Here is a press release (http://www.24-7pressrelease.com/press-release/naviens-condensing-98-tankless-water-heater-series-where-technology-meets-ecology-80877.php)on the Navien.

But one downfall of these super efficient condensing water heaters, is when it reclaims the heat from the exhaust gases, you get condensate, which has a destructive Ph around 4 which will eat up cast iron pipes, sump pumps, brass floor drain covers even concrete. There was a write up about it in the new issue of PHC News here is the article (http://www.phcnews.com/jan_09/hotrod.php).

[SewerRatz]

I think we need a separate spot for the tankless crowd. Here is a subject that keeps comming up over and over, like bad Mexican food. :D

Back to the initial idea here, Maybe a thread just for water heaters. kind of like the one you have for toilets, and showers.

[Terry]

A thread for water heaters?

Is that what I'm hearing?

All types?

[Cass]

http://www.eternalwaterheater.com/files/img/technology/Technology01.jpg


http://www.eternalwaterheater.com/technology/


http://eternaltools.eternalwaterheater.com/gu26-animation.html

I called Tech support and was told that it never needs to be cleaned with vinegar or any other acid regardless of the hardness of the water...also they are going to test the PH of the condensate and get back to me, they said that installs in Texas tend to have a lot of condensate...

[master plumber mark]

Sewer Ratz.... Thank you for mentioning the Navien....

I found this link to I guess the one you are talking about....

it does not look much different than the tankless units....


http://www.navienamerica.com/content/Navien-Condensing-Tankless-brochure.pdf

No offence but for some reason,
I am not getting any real warm fuzzie feelings from it


looks like any other tankless to me......


have you heard anything that would change my feelings...


I really like what I see with the Eternal.....

Its not too big, and not too small, and what that has got to do with it, I dont know

and a 6 gallon reserve tank .... basically its a Stainless steel boiler

somehow it feels just right....

I am going to try to call a couple of plumbers listed on web site

that have installed them in their own homes and see what they have to say about them...

[master plumber mark]

A thread for water heaters?

Is that what I'm hearing?

All types?


IMy web site is all about waqter heaters.
and I it would be ok, especially if you are trying them out andthen doing a critique on them...

I have been trying to get
Bradford White to pay me for all the good will and
free advertiseing i have been doing for them





I dont know how long the thread would last...before it went lame...


The Whilpool thread has never died yet....
of course that is like a whole junk yard of burning tires.
that will never burn out...



If you do make one, please
use a picture of my 1916 Humphrey
heater on the link somehow...


I can even open it up and take some pics of the innards
its really not much different than the present technology....
...

[SewerRatz]

Sewer Ratz.... Thank you for mentioning the Navien....



have you heard anything that would change my feelings...


Well the duel stainless steal heat exchanger , a reserve tank and a 15 year warranty on the heat exchanger. Guess that sums up what I saw and liked in the Navien units. The link you showed is the right one.


A thread for water heaters?

Is that what I'm hearing?

All types?

I think that would be a good idea, this way people can head to the water heater part of the forums for all their water heater needs be it tanked, tankless gas, oil or even solar water heating. If you want make the new Water heater forum and break it into 4 parts First one is tank type heaters, second tankless, third boilers and fourth would be solar and geothermal.

[Cass]

They are pricy...The larger unit is $2462.50 + shipping and the smaller unit is $2212.50 + shipping...those are my costs...through Ferguson who is the only Local dealer...I will price them from another sourse...

[SliderJeff]

I called Tech support and was told that it never needs to be cleaned with vinegar or any other acid regardless of the hardness of the water...also they are going to test the PH of the condensate and get back to me, they said that installs in Texas tend to have a lot of condensate...

I can attest to this being an issue in Houston. The <insert less than flattering term here> that installed my Rheem didn't install a condensate trap at all. 1 month after it was installed, we can only use the hot water once and then have to wait like an hour or never get hot water. Got so bad that eventually the burners would never light. I took the friggin thing apart a couple weeks ago at 10pm in the 95 degree attic just to restore hot water. Still waiting for *bleep* to come back and install the damn part. Finding a plumber worth a damn in these parts is akin to getting blood from a stone.

Regards,
Jeff

[SliderJeff]

Plumber finally came back last Friday and installed the condensate trap on the unit. Hopefully this ends my woes in terms of losing hot water after the first time you use hot water sometime in the house. My taking the unit apart and cleaning the igniters seems to have made the most difference since we haven't had the issue since I did that.

Regards,
Jeff