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MarcH
01-11-2009, 05:53 PM
I am remodeling my kitchen and am planning on putting four kitchen counter outlets on one circuit, the stove, fridge, and dishwasher on one circuit, and four can lights and the under cabinet lights on one circuit. Does this sound like a good plan with the typical load of a kitchen? Thanks for your help!

Scuba_Dave
01-11-2009, 06:08 PM
Code requires 2 kitchen circuits for outlets, I believe its an outlet every 2' is required
Plus every separate counter equal or greater then 2' in length must have an outlet
Lots of codes for kitchen, I put my fridge on its own circuit
Dishwasher will depend upon the draw, if it draws more then 50% of the circuit it must be a dedicated circuit is my understanding
I fill my lighting circuits to the Max allowed, this is based on the fixture rating - not the actual bulb installed. Since I use CFL bulbs my lighting circuits are underused. So my kitchen lighting is off another light circuit - not dedicated to the kitchen
In addition I will have 3 (20a) kitchen counter circuits
Plus a 4th in the adjoining sunroom

Codes sometimes differ based on your location - so you might want to post where you are located

jimbo
01-11-2009, 06:09 PM
The refrigerator and the dishwasher EACH should be on a dedicated circuit. If you have an over the range microwave, or plan to have a countertop microwave, there should be a dedicated cirtuit for that.

codeone
01-11-2009, 06:11 PM
(B) Small Appliances.
(].) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry,
breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwellingunit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch
circuits required by 210.1l(C)(1) shall serve all wall and
floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop
outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for
refrigeration equipment.
Exception No.1: In addition to the required receptacles
specified by 210.52, switched receptacles supplied from a
general-purpose branch circuit as defined in 210.70(A)(1),
Exception No.1, shall be permitted.
Exception No.2: The receptacle outlet for refrigeration
equipment shall be permitted to be supplied from an individual
branch circuit rated 15 amperes or greater.
(2) No Other Outlets. The two or more small-appliance
branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no
other outlets.
(3) Kitchen Receptacle Requirements. Receptacles installed
in a kitchen to serve countertop surfaces shall be
supplied by not fewer than two small-appliance branch circuits,
either or both of which shall also be. permitted to
supply receptacle outlets in the same kitchen and in other
rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1). Additional smallappliance
branch circuits shall be permitted to supply receptacle
outlets in the kitchen and other rooms specified in
210.52(B)(1). No small-appliance branch circuit shall serve
more than one kitchen.



Hope these code sections help you

jadnashua
01-11-2009, 06:26 PM
The codes typically also say install per the manufacturer's instructions...many specify a dedicated circuit for their devices.

jar546
01-11-2009, 09:09 PM
lets clarify:

*Kitchen counter tops must be served by 2 separate 20 amp circuits.

*At no point along the countertop can you be more than 24" from a receptacle so they need to be no more than 48" apart.

*If you only need 4 receptacles due to the lineal feet of your counter, then 2 receptacles on each 20 amp circuit would work best.

*Lighting is usally 15a circuit and cannot be part of the circuit for the counter receptacles.

*You need to know the rating of each appliance so you know how many circuits you will need. In addition as recommended above by someone else, some appliance manufacturers specify a dedicated branch circuit.

Just make sure that your work is inspected and ask your local code official what your requirements are.

220/221
01-12-2009, 04:38 PM
Two 20 amp gfci protected circuits for counter top receps. Refer can be on one of these. Refer does not have tio be GFCI protected. Run the home run there first if you choose to put it on with a counter top circuit.

One 20 amp circuit for dishwasher

One (in most areas,15 amp) circuit for the lighting.

Lee Tanner
01-12-2009, 04:53 PM
Depending on what your codes are for your area, if there is not going to be an inspection done heres the way we do it, if you can reach water and a recpiticial at the same time use GFI (I'an in mississippi) always have refigiator on its own circuit most dishwashers don't have to have a its own circuit, under the counter lights usually low voltage lights so they don't pull many amps.

codeone
01-12-2009, 06:07 PM
Depending on what your codes are for your area, if there is not going to be an inspection done heres the way we do it, if you can reach water and a recpiticial at the same time use GFI (I'an in mississippi) always have refigiator on its own circuit most dishwashers don't have to have a its own circuit, under the counter lights usually low voltage lights so they don't pull many amps.

Any ever hear of ETHICS You should abide by codes and the General Statutes of your State. Just because you dont get something inspected should be no reason for you to not do Proper work Practices.

Billy_Bob
01-13-2009, 05:58 AM
Any ever hear of ETHICS You should abide by codes and the General Statutes of your State. Just because you dont get something inspected should be no reason for you to not do Proper work Practices.

In most cases, electrical codes are there to protect you, your family, and those who may purchase your home in the future, from fire or from electrocution.

However in the case of kitchen electrical codes, a lot of this is a... You're going to be happier living in your house day to day if you follow the codes type of thing! You will not have breakers tripping and you will have the power there to run counter top appliances.

I don't know about you, but I have lived in several older homes where if I have the stereo on and the refrigerator kicks on, the breaker trips. Or you can only use one thing at a time in the kitchen or the breaker will trip.

Not fun to have these constant problems! :mad:

codeone
01-13-2009, 10:29 AM
Billy Bob, Do not get me wrong I do not condone doing work without proper permits or doing things not up to code or even above. The code is the min. to have a reasonably safe system. the reason I said Ethics or you could use "Moraly Right" is that I know there are a lot of contractors and DIY's that do not pull permits and have their work inspected.

If you are having a problem with a breaker tripping due to overloads either hire someone to fix the problem have them pull proper permits and have their work inspected or pull the proper permits as a DIY and have your work inspected. Its for your protection.

Mel

MarcH
01-17-2009, 07:00 PM
Thank you all for the helpful info. My main question was how many countertop outlets per circuit. I know the frustration about living in an older home, ours was built in 1914 and there's only two outlets in the kitchen right now. The project is coming along great! Wiring completed in the walls and ran into the basement for hook up to the panel by an electrician. Drywall on, taped, and two coats of mud on. Third coat tomorrow and sand tomorrow afternoon. Started knocking holes in the ceiling for can lights, need to move a door, a little framing, move light switch, drywall, prime, texture, and paint...by Wednesday. That's when cabinets come. Going to the store tomorrow for more supplies, mainly flooring. Have a great weekend everyone.

Chris75
01-17-2009, 07:15 PM
The refrigerator and the dishwasher EACH should be on a dedicated circuit. If you have an over the range microwave, or plan to have a countertop microwave, there should be a dedicated cirtuit for that.

why though?

Billy_Bob
01-18-2009, 05:44 AM
...My main question was how many countertop outlets per circuit...

In my opinion, a "dream" kitchen would have its own subpanel, each counter outlet a 4-plex, and each 4-plex on its own 20 amp breaker. There can be a high concentration of energy hogs in a kitchen such as...

Hot Plate - 1500 Watts
Coffee and Espresso Makers - 1500 Watts
Electric griddle - 1500 Watts
Bread machine - 600 Watts
Deep fryer - 1500 Watts
Microwave - 1000/1200 Watts
Etc.

Compared with a living room which might have a 200 watt TV, and several 100 watt lamps (25 watts if CFL). For the living room I would wire all the outlets on one 20 amp circuit.

jar546
01-18-2009, 06:01 AM
Billy Bob, you can have however many circuits you want, as long as there is at least two 20A circuits serving your counter top.

In the completely unlikely event that you had every single appliance running at the same time that you have listed above, 4 circuits would be plenty for that application even if you put your fridge on it. That is certainly a do-able setup for any kitchen remodel or new construction. Only 2 more circuits and you never have to worry about overloading breakers.

Chris75
01-18-2009, 06:02 AM
In my opinion, a "dream" kitchen would have its own subpanel, each counter outlet a 4-plex, and each 4-plex on its own 20 amp breaker. There can be a high concentration of energy hogs in a kitchen such as...

Hot Plate - 1500 Watts
Coffee and Espresso Makers - 1500 Watts
Electric griddle - 1500 Watts
Bread machine - 600 Watts
Deep fryer - 1500 Watts
Microwave - 1000/1200 Watts
Etc.

Compared with a living room which might have a 200 watt TV, and several 100 watt lamps (25 watts if CFL). For the living room I would wire all the outlets on one 20 amp circuit.

Your kidding right?

Scuba_Dave
01-18-2009, 06:18 AM
Thank you all for the helpful info. My main question was how many countertop outlets per circuit. I know the frustration about living in an older home, ours was built in 1914 and there's only two outlets in the kitchen right now.

How many outlets you need depends upon your counter(s) & room size. Someone posted the below diagram on another thread.
Say you had a 6' counter & that was it. I'd put an outlet at either end & one in the middle. I don't like the look of quads so it would be a duplex. I'll actually have 3 counter circuits + a 4th circuit for the sunroom (open to kitchen)
On one 5' counter I'll have 2 outlets - each on a different circuit
Across the room will be a 4' counter with 2 outlets - each on a separate circuit. Then the counter that borders the sunroom will have 3 more outlets - each on a different circuit

I've seen some high end TV/Audio setups that one 20a circuit would not be enough to supply the room. I'd run a dedicated circuit just for the Entertainment setup. When we wer hsopping for a new TV I was surprised at some 42" plasma TV's that used 500 watts!! We quickly ruled out plasma for a TV. Our 42" LCD used 205w out of the box, 95-110 watts after picture adjustment

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y105/Daveywb/Home%20Stuff/kitchenreceptacles.jpg

Billy_Bob
01-18-2009, 07:10 AM
Your kidding right?

No I'm not!

There are all sorts of different people and all sorts of different kitchens. I've seen some upscale large home kitchens with two side by side refrigerators and two ranges.

I heard of one house (mansion) which had 60 employees (staff, maids, butlers, gardeners, etc.) working there. I heard about that 15 years ago and am still trying to figure out what all those people would do????

For myself I only have two countertop circuits, but I am not a "Julia Child" cook by any means! (I have burned boiled chicken :( )

Anyway the idea is to find out how the customer/person will likely be using the kitchen and design it for *their* needs.

jar546
01-18-2009, 07:43 AM
Scuba, just split them in half, 4 & 4. You can make it 7 & 1 if you want, as long as you have 2 separate 20A receptacles. If you know how you will be using your countertops then plan ahead accordingly. What you are showing looks good if your measurements are correct.

Scuba_Dave
01-18-2009, 08:43 AM
Scuba, just split them in half, 4 & 4. You can make it 7 & 1 if you want, as long as you have 2 separate 20A receptacles. If you know how you will be using your countertops then plan ahead accordingly. What you are showing looks good if your measurements are correct.

Actually there will be 3 circuits (that diagram is not my kitchen - just an example someone posted
I know what I typed makes it seem like a lot of circuits
But the 5' countertop will share both circuits with the 4' counter top & the countertop that borders the sunroom. I know its more wire to run across the room, but I want 2 circuits on each counter instead of 1 circuit.
It will be a big improvement over the 1 circuit that used to run everything including the fridge
I seperated the fridge onto its own 15a circuit
Then I seperated the 2 (yes only 2) outlets each onto a 20a circuit
I then added the 3rd circuit

We had the toaster (800w) & microwave (1100w) plugged into a surge protector & it kicked out. Turns out of course it was only 15a surge. So now the toaster is on the surge plugged into the 3rd circuit. The microwave is plugged into the 2nd circuit. Our toaster oven (1500w) is plugged into the 1st circuit
This doesn't even count the coffee maker, cappuccino machine, pancake hotplate, blender, can opener, crock pot & other items that may be plugged in

I think 2 circuits as the minimum is fine. But it makes sense to have 3 circuits given the appliances we use
Usually its only when you are having a party, Christmas, Thanksgiving etc that you need the extra power. But that's what I am planning for

This is a friends house in Ohio - over 12,000 sq ft
I haven't been out to visit, but I am sure they have quite the electric setup
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y105/Daveywb/Mansion/kathieshouse002.jpg

Billy_Bob
01-18-2009, 06:48 PM
...Usually its only when you are having a party, Christmas, Thanksgiving etc that you need the extra power...

Yes, that is what all the circuits are for! Those one or two days a year.

As to the picture of the house above, I once went on a service call to a house something like that. The people said they wanted to get the repairs taken care of before they left for their "summer home"! :rolleyes:

Scuba_Dave
01-18-2009, 06:57 PM
Yes, I try to plan for "events", between the 200 main & a 100a sub I have plenty of room to spread circuits out & still have empty spaces. So it makes sense to do so for the possible heavier use areas

Yeah, they bought the property - the house that was on it was maybe 1/2 million - 700k. It was bulldozed. It took a while for the new house to be built = imported this, imported that
My wife took the pics, one day I'll see it in person

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y105/Daveywb/Mansion/kathieshouse096.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y105/Daveywb/Mansion/kathieshouse072.jpg