Nightmare plumbing job

[Terry]

Master Plumber Mark wanted me to post this link

http://www.skinrxclinic.com/original_plumbing_that_burst.htm

A little reading shows a very sloppy way of plumbing.
I would have sleeved the pipes throught the slab with closed cell foam pipe insulation, not duct tape.
This is one example of what happens when unlicensed workers do plumbing.

http://www.terrylove.com/images/whitepextube.jpg

By the way, the PEX I use doesn't use crimp-on, but rather uses shrink fit made by Wirsbo. It's a very nice way of joining pipe. One of the advantages of PEX is fewer fittings. That's not the case in the link above.

www.terrylove.com/pipe.htm (http://www.terrylove.com/pipe.htm)

[master plumber mark]

Terry , if you dont mind, would you please explain to me
the difference between the pexes ...

the birds and the bees of pex for my general education.

http://www.terrylove.com/images/whitepextube.jpg

I know that wirsbo is the shrink to fit type and have
used it occasionally with no major problems
It seems pretty good and is really a life saveer in situations
where the crawl space in unheated with very long runs across
nasty unheated areas....but it does look sloppy.
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Now what the hell does this guy have in his house???

According to Lowes and I have seen the same stuff in
their supply houses this is considerd to be pex too......

basically it looks to me to be just a glorified crimping
system that was used 20 years ago by Quest pipe......

is the pipe supposed to be a pex spin-off???

Or is Wirsbo a better more advanced pex design??

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http://www.vanguardpipe.com/images/smMBColorAP%5ESHlr;2%20copy.jpg

Also theri is a red and blue type used in this area
going into a Manablock system that I thought was
considered to be pex too.....

please correct me here if I am wrong...

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http://www.ipexinc.com/Content/EN_US/images/2_0/2_4/img_2_4_2_kitex_main.jpg

Now their is also another type of pex I have seen that
comes in a orange---brown colored roll that is used in
manablock systems that is also considered pex..


My brother -in law got talked into doing a house out of something
that is considered to be pex with an alluminum core to it....

its dog shit...I am pretty sure of that.crimping rings and all
but our salesman talked him into it
....but I believe its also called pex too....
I think I have seen it on your site before..
what it is called escapes me right now.
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It sounds to me if you can roll off some plastic pipe and figure
out youir own design of crimping systems you can call it pex
or better than pex...

in 5 years or less its simply going to be a nightmare for any or all
service plumbers when they stumble into god knows what on a
job.

[Terry]

Well, You can always try to curtail human thought, but you're going to lose on that one.

There will always be new ideas and the changes that come with it.
I for one welcome plastic over soldering.
I don't know what the long term effect of the smoke is from solder, but I can taste it on my skin and on my clothes at the end of the day.
I have no idea how much of it gets in my lungs.
I have scars all over my face, hands and arms from hot flux.

My uncle died in his early fifties, most likely from working with asbestos in the earlier days of plumbing.

There are places in the US that used lead for water delivery.
Until the 80's, they were using lead to solder copper pipe.

I keep one brand of PEX on the truck.
I choose what I use based on plentiful supply with my suppliers and the track record it has. Over thirty years in Europe. It's not all that new.

I haven't researched the other brands, so I can't tell you what is good or bad about them.

One notable thing though, is the lack of content on the web discussing problems with PEX.
There are problems with copper, but then it's accepted and has a long term installed base.
One of the reasons that flux has been changed, is joint failure with the older corrosive fluxes.

I still use copper, and I use PEX.

As far as looks, get over it.
Electrical used to use porcelain knobs? I think.
Nice straight runs, not this loose Romex wire pulled through holes like today.
If it delivers water, it's working.
It certainly is quieter.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

I agree that the link I posted is more workmanship than piping errors but as everyone knows already that everyone is jumping on the bandwagon for making pex and some companies are already stopping production of some lines for whatever reason but these piping systems have to be used with the crimp rings they are designed for and not retrofitted otherwise they will leak which has happened to others and the information about mice eating pex is true and there are too many instances already where people have had this happen even on the other plastic piping materials including romex electric so any product is with error and there are pros and cons to everything made but I buy materials off **** and I notice that pex and maniblock systems are as cheap as fourteen dollars for one of those circuit boards where all the lines tie in and that plastic is prone to crack over time since it will be at room temperature up to incoming hot and then cold and this over times weakens any plastic product made today so that is why you have to know this product from a service point of view because these issues will be here soon enough with the calls coming in with problems and workmanship and other factors will apply like straining the piping into a spot on the manifold which causes a stress crack on the connection just like pvc drain piping if you stretch it to where you want it it usually cracks there years from now because that strain on the pvc hardens that spot where it is pulled and there is even a thread right below this one that is a class action lawsuit on another plastic piping system that failed and cost billions yes billions like mcdonalds hamburgers served and blue max is another piping system that people cannot even sell houses because their main line has this piping that breaks sooner or later so a plastic is a plastic is a plastic no matter which way you cut it and there is ample reason for those who walk in this trade knowing product lines that is seems feasible to be skeptical about another plastic piping system rolling in that seems great and everyone loves it and all is well but if you ask anyone who has blue max or polybutulene they will probably start crying and tell you horror story upon horror story of people they know through the class action lawsuits where everyone jumped the bandwagon and used this junk and now insurance on homes is high and had to spend thousands to have it replaced just like anything that fails it must be replaced or else it nickels and dimes you along the way but for copper piping failures I have heard of certain areas having this problem but this goes back to either fixing the problem or fixing the symptoms and fixing the problem is treating the water or you still have the problem of pipe deterioration and you cannot replace just the piping in your home and expect the copper tubes coming off the faucets or inside of faucets not to be affected so the water lines only is not the answer and I have never heard of a plastic faucet that is worth more than a dollar wrapped around it out in the garbage so thanks for creating this thread there are too many people excited about new things and some have to slow down and see what ten 15 20 proves over time and as you see that workmanship error can affect any product but there are too many types of pex and crimps now and it will become geographical over time which areas used what and everyone knows that companies go out of business to remove themselves from liability just like you can't suck blood out of a turnip especially if there is no turnip to suck blood from.

[master plumber mark]

thank you terry for your info.....though I dont think you
ever answered the question about what the hell this poor fellow
actually has in his house....rigid pex?? correct?

I guess it is pex pipe with just a very crummey way
of putting it together... clamping rings....
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.I agree with you that wirsbo is pretty good stuff and far
better than useing crimping tools. and bands.


What really scares me is all the new stuff out there
that is going to be a frigging nightmare some day when it
starts to fail.....

This fellow has got good points about how cheap the plastic
manifolds are and how easy it is for anyone to make the
junk then just go bankrupt at the first sign of trouble.

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as far as soldering..

My father is 85 and has soldered since probably 1935 and has
inhaled lead from burning pots of the stuff...pouring and wipeing joints.
He is still working today.

I remember playing with lead pots and hot ladels and
pouring cast fittings when I was a child and have
soldered since I was 7....luck was on
my side that I was never seriously burned.


I can guarantee that their are probably still about 4000 houses in
this city all were completed by us in the 1960s in type M copper
that are still in pretty good working conditon. (more or less)
That aint bad for a copper testimonal.

I will probably survive the solder fumes even in tight crawl spaces...

Now, getting HIGH on PVC glue in a tight crawl space
is another issue altogether...thats a real head buzz.....

thats just got to be doing a lot more damage to the brain stem
than wimpy soldering flux.
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I suppose the best way to look at Pex and all the
new stuff out there is from
the standpoint that it might be great stuff that will
stand the test of time ,
OR maybe we might be making TONS
of repair work for the next generation of plumbers to deal with
in 10-20-30 years from now....

and that aint bad for business either. LOL

[Terry]

I don't know what kind of pipe the homebuilder used in the link.

I'm using the stuff that's been around for thirty years without problems. Wirsbo.

It's true that junk can be made. Junk is made all the time.
Maybe the stuff in the link at the top of the page is junk. Does anybody know what that stuff is?

And it's true that you can breath in smoke all day and not die.
I just don't like doing it.
I'm a non-smoker anyway.

[jimbo]

The problem with the PB is that it appears Shell and Dupont knew early on that there were quality problems and other issues and chose to cover these up to keep the production going and the money rolling in (WHAT A SHOCK!).

Now, PEX has been around in Europe for a long time. It has been around this country for many years in hot water heating systems. I am not aware of any emerging issues. Like anything else, workmanship is an issue. Most plumbers could tell you horror stories, like the one in this thread, about nightmare situations they have come across in COPPER. Not the fault of the copper, but of the so-called plumber. In addition, copper is not completely the perfect material. Some water conditions cause big trouble for copper. What about all the underslab copper that has had to be abaondoned and repiped overhead?

PEX is probably here to stay, because large contractors simply have to take advantage of the significant cost savings; their competitors surely will.

SO, as time passes, it will be necessary for service plumbers to be trained and equipped to deal with PEX, just like we have learned to deal with FVIR water heaters and lo-flush toilets.

[kavita]

hi all,

i was chatting with our wonderful plumber (i'll call him c) the other day and he told me a story about his experience thus far with PEX. he really likes the simplicity of it, but discovered that it's not entirely suitable for some applications.

c plumbs lots of vacation homes here in southern vermont. the homes are relatively infrequently inhabited by humans. mice, of course, arrive when humans vacate.

c received a phone call from a vacationer who arrived at his vacation home to find water leakage. c had plumbed his house.

c found that mice had chewed through the piping in a couple of locations where they were trying to access the house via pipe holes through joists.

instead of gnawing through the wood as they usually do, apparently the mice found it easier to chew through the PEX material!

c chatted with the PEX distributor about it, who suggested that c simply drill an additional hole in the joists to provide easy mouse access so as to discourage pipe destruction. hmmmm ...

perhaps in low-utilization houses, PEX is not so great.

kavita

went to look at the damage.

[Gary Slusser]

PEX is cross linked PE and the tubing is extruded. It is a special form or PE tubing. There are three types of PEX; A, B and C. The types are based on how it is made; IIRC there are two distinctly different means of creating the cross link. All PEX used for potable water lines is CTS. QEST compression fittings work on it very well. I don't know that one manufacturer's crimp rings can't be used on another's tubing. I think logic says that as long as the crimpers for those crimp rings are used, the joint should be the same as a different ring and crimper. Of course all crimpers require frequent calibrating and the tubing handling, storage and installation warnings/instructions must be followed.

Aluminum lined is not for potable water IIRC, it's used only for hydronic heating systems. Potable water PEX is used on both hot and cold water. it comes in a number of colors; red, blue, white and opaque.

I am not a plumber but have seen a number of PEX installations and to use it as copper or other materials are in a branch and tee system is IMO, the wrong way to use it. Also IMO, had the homerun manifold system been used in the house in the link, they wouldn't have had most of the problems they had. That's with the bad crimp rings adn crimps because there would only be one on each end of each run and one of the two would be exposed at the manifold. BTW, the manifold valves are cartridge types IIRC, but at least oring sealed. There are many types of ornig material and orings in softener and other appliances tend to last for a very long time; regardless of water qualtiy and some of it is very poor quality and/or dirty if we talk about backwashed turbidity filters used for iron removal or following chlorination or other oxidizing types of treatment.

IMO the family in the link have decided to tear out walls etc. to replace good tubing (read no failure of it) based only or precieved poor quality with no proof of the claim. And to go to "K" copper! I do not think they will prevail in court for more than those fittings that leaked and their associated damage; and that may be streching it. They certainly won't get the difference in cost for K copper, or any aditional time to install it over the cost and/or time for L or M copper.

I think there would have been the same type of negatives being said about copper when it first came out; lead and galvanized were king then and much harder than copper. Especially if soft copper was used at the begining of it's being used as water line. And I still hear complaints about lead free solder and flux. lol

Gary
Quality Water Associates

[hj]

If you know you have "a lot of lead" in your body, the important thing is not really telling MRI techs about it, the important thing is to get it removed.

[Cass]

How is lead removed from the body? I was under the impression that once ther it was there for life.