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tdpadgett
12-14-2008, 05:48 PM
I recently had a water leak outside and it was fixed. However now my red triangle on the water meter moves counter clockwise very, I mean very slowly, stopping at times for up to 30 seconds before moving again counter clockwise. Does this mean I have another leak underground? Should the dial be moving clockwise instead of counter clockwise? I am only the third house from the end of the main line could this be why it is counter clockwise? Thanks.

Gary Swart
12-14-2008, 06:13 PM
I don't know for sure about the direction a meter turns, but I do know that if it turns you are using water somewhere. A leak anywhere will cause the meter to move, but since it moves intermittently, I would check the toilets first. A flapper that is not seating perfectly will cause a toilet to have to refill periodically. I'm sure the location of your home in relation to other homes has absolutely nothing to do with anything.

tdpadgett
12-14-2008, 06:54 PM
I have turned off the main cut off inside the house and the red triangle still moves ever so often only counter clockwise. I was told that water can move back into the main line when people use it down the line from me....didn't sound right but that is what I was told.

Gary Swart
12-14-2008, 08:41 PM
You may have received good information, I really don't know. I'd still check the toilets because sometimes the cut off valve doesn't shut the water off 100%. Hopefully one of the pros with more meter expertise than I have will be around tomorrow. Lot of the pros are not around on week-ends.

Verdeboy
12-14-2008, 09:13 PM
I just found a good article on this, and according to the article, you still have a leak somewhere between the meter and your main shutoff.

The final important feature of your meter is the leak detector. In the picture above, it is a small (usually red colored) triangle, but in other meters may be diamond shaped. This detects small volumes of water that may be passing through your meter. If there is water passing through your meter, the leak detector will be turning counter-clockwise. The more water that flows through the meter, the faster the leak detector will turn. For slight leaks, you may have to watch the leak detector for a few minutes to see any movement. If you suspect a leak, turn off all the water in your home and watch the leak detector on your meter. If the detector reveals a leak, locate and and repair the leak immediately.

tdpadgett
12-15-2008, 03:41 AM
If this is the case I have been told to start at the meter because in most cases where the city/county hook up the line to the homeowners is were it could be? I have been told that you should have about two foot or so of copper coming off the meter then into your PVC line if that be the case to your house. I believe they hooked my PVC straight to the meter...not sure.

jimbo
12-15-2008, 05:55 AM
Have you turned on a faucet, and watched which way the triangle moves?

My meter, the triangle turns clockwise.

It would be a BAD thing for water to be flowing OUT of your property into the main.

kingsotall
12-15-2008, 06:25 AM
There's another thread recently here with someone renting a backhoe and tearing up his yard and still never found the pipe he was looking for... Get my drift¿

WV Hillbilly
12-15-2008, 07:57 AM
If I'm not badly mistaken the triangle in the meter at one of my rentals turns clockwise when water in the home is being used . I have noticed the same thing as you , the triangle moving very slightly cc stopping , maybe turning very slightly cc again . I contributed it to variance in main line water use .

tdpadgett
12-15-2008, 09:20 AM
I hope you are right. I did just now dig up the joint from the meter to the line in which the City hooked up not us and it has a small leak. I have called them to come out but who knows. The leak is very, very, small so I am not sure if that would case the triangle to move or not....anyone know!! Thanks!!

Note the line coming from the meter is 3/4 PVC and then hooks into our 1 1/4 PVC, so they did not run copper off of the meter as I have been told should be done.

kingsotall
12-15-2008, 07:08 PM
Hopefully they don't say the leak occurred as a result of a shovel hitting it. Some people say I'm a glass is half empty kinda guy.

hj
12-16-2008, 05:14 AM
If your meter's normal direction is clockwise and yours runs CCW, then it i sucking the water out of your house and you are selling it to the water company. Not a very likely scenarion.

Verdeboy
12-16-2008, 10:57 AM
As I mentioned earlier, the triangle is supposed to move counterclockwise when water is being used.

http://www.expertvillage.com/video/12145_check-flow-water-conserve.htm

WV Hillbilly
12-16-2008, 11:07 AM
Would the original poster or someone else turn on a faucet & look at their meter to see which way the triangle is turning when water in the home is being used ? My rental is to far away to go check . Maybe some meters turn one way & some the other . I could be wrong but I'd bet $10.00 the meter I'm talking about turns clockwise when water in my house is being used .

tdpadgett
12-17-2008, 09:20 AM
UPDATE!! Checked my meter and it does in fact run CCW when water is being used. The city came out and fixed the connection between my line and the meter which they hooked up. However I still show a small leak somewhere. They were curious that when the cut the line which comes down a hill to the meter...almost no water ran out. They asked if there was a check valve in the line but there isn't so they were wondering where all the water went. They have suggested digging down every so often and putting in a cut off valve with a 4" PVC pipe to the surface to shut off the line every so often to check...is this a good idea? They also suggested putting in some check valves every so often..is that a good idea?

WV Hillbilly
12-17-2008, 09:42 AM
I'm withdrawing my offer to bet $10.00 .

master plumber mark
12-17-2008, 10:32 AM
putting check valves every so often
in the line is absolutely totally stupid...


what you need to do is go into the house and install a
NEW BALL VALVE so you are 100% sure that water is not pissing through your main stop into the home.
I have been down this rode before, and you wont be totally sure till you change the main inside the home
..

THEN after you have done this , THEN you read your meter...

if it si still moveing you need a new water service....


if it stops totally, then you have something in the home
like a toilet ballcock running...

tdpadgett
12-17-2008, 11:18 AM
We have changed the main inside the house. I had a plumber come in and completely change everything from where it comes inside the house to where it hooks into my lines. He put in a brand new valve (brass this time) because our last one was PVC and he said might leak. Still the meter will come to a complete stop for about 10-20 seconds then move slowly, stop and ect.....
If the check valves are a bad idea how about the cut offs every 100ft or so. I have about 400 feet of line from the street to the back of the house.

wraujr
12-17-2008, 01:11 PM
I'm beginning to think your meter is at the street and you have 400' of pipe until you get to main cutoff in house... or is meter at the house???
Please clarify...

WV Hillbilly
12-17-2008, 02:35 PM
In most places the water company is responsible for the line to the meter & the homeowner is responsible for the line from the meter to the house . I'd say he has about 400 feet of pipe that he's responsible for .

tdpadgett
12-17-2008, 03:15 PM
You are both correct. I have about 390-400 feet of pipe from the meter to my house cut off. We lived on well for about 11 years and the county ran water down our street last December and things have been fine until recently. The county did fix the small leak at the meter that connects into my line only because they hooked it up. We had a major leak about 2 weeks ago where two pieces of pipe underground simply just pulled loose. There was only about a 1/4 inch holding them together in the bell housing. We fixed it and of course started watching the meter again to see if it corrected it and in one since it did fix the major leak but again we know there has to be another one. Should I put cut off's every 100 ft or so up through the line?

Redwood
12-17-2008, 04:10 PM
Sounds like your line might be a little sketchy.
Who put it in and when?

tdpadgett
12-22-2008, 12:28 PM
O.K. Here is the latest and a question that I think I know the answer too but need some professional help. We just left for 4 days and I decided to turn off the water inside the house but at the street as well. Today when we got home I turned the meter back on and it took several minutes for the red triangle to slow down and bascially stop (still moving very slowly stopping at times as earlier described). Since the water was off at the meter and inside the house should it have had to fill the line up the front yard like it did? Makes me believe that there is a leak underground right? Thanks!

kingsotall
12-22-2008, 08:43 PM
Just get a plumber out there for crying out loud!

http://elsbro.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/crying.gif

Verdeboy
12-22-2008, 10:39 PM
You obviously have a leak between the meter and the main shutoff in your home. That last exercise proves it. Someone has to start digging. It is a lot cheaper for you to start digging than a plumber. If you have a wet spot somewhere, that would be the first place to start.

tdpadgett
12-23-2008, 06:19 AM
No wet spots on the ground and I do have easy access to dig up the line. I have already dug it up too fix the major leak we had that started this mess. Any suggestions on a 400 foot line how many shut off's I should put in? Any suggestions on check valves being put in at the same time?

As for kingsotall...I am not crying just trying to get info. like anyone else on here. I can do the work myself but looking for suggestions, thoughts and ect.....

wraujr
12-23-2008, 08:23 AM
I'm no pro, but common sense says forget the extra shutoffs and check valves as they are not needed. The only thing needed is to find the leak and fix it. Try and be smart about the leak. If line is copper tubing, it comes in 50' and 100' lengths, then start at say house and dig every 50' looking for the joint. If its lengths of pipe, use the length and start by finding joints. Odds are its a joint, but there's no guarantee that its not.

If you really want to use shutoffs to isolate leak then I would start as follows:
Start at 200' (the middle) and place a shutoff. Then determine if leak is in first 200' or second 200'. Then go to section with leak and place shutoff in middle (i.e. 100' point or 300' point). Determine which section has leak. Continue halfing until leak is found. In math its known as the bisection method and is the quickest way, unless you find the wet spot......

tdpadgett
12-24-2008, 04:17 AM
Thanks!! I have 1 1/4" PVC pipe in 20' sections so it would be a lot of joints to dig up is why I was looking at sections.

Verdeboy
12-24-2008, 10:54 AM
There are also companies that specialize in leak detection using audio and visual information without disturbing the ground. You may want to look up "leak detection" in your yellow pages to get an estimate.

Gary Slusser
12-24-2008, 11:33 AM
With 400+' of 20' sections of PVC, the best way to go is to trench a new 1" or 1.25" 160 or 200 psi rated PE (polyethylene) line from the meter to the house.

A shut off at the meter and just inside the house. No check valves, maybe a pressure regulator valve and an expansion tank on the cold feed to the water heater.

It seems to me that you have a leak allowing air into the line or water wouldn't be running back into the street, or the water heater is building pressure to push the water back to the street. Maybe a vacuum breaker on an outside faucet?

I'd also add a water pressure gauge inside the house to make sure the water company is keeping a minimum positive pressure of 20-40 lbs and there is no vacuum being created in the city water line by neighbors. A vacuum will constantly break PVC until you stop the vacuum.

You double oppose clamp the PE and use the proper torque wrench to tighten the clamps; plus a half turn. And do not tighten when the tubing is warm or hot. Over tightening clamps is the primary cause of leaks.

kingsotall
12-24-2008, 03:39 PM
And I quote:

There are also companies that specialize in leak detection using audio and visual information without disturbing the ground. You may want to look up "leak detection" in your yellow pages to get an estimate.


As for kingsotall...I am not crying just trying to get info. like anyone else on here. I can do the work myself but looking for suggestions, thoughts and ect.....

tdpadgett
12-29-2008, 05:15 AM
With 400+' of 20' sections of PVC, the best way to go is to trench a new 1" or 1.25" 160 or 200 psi rated PE (polyethylene) line from the meter to the house.

A shut off at the meter and just inside the house. No check valves, maybe a pressure regulator valve and an expansion tank on the cold feed to the water heater.

It seems to me that you have a leak allowing air into the line or water wouldn't be running back into the street, or the water heater is building pressure to push the water back to the street. Maybe a vacuum breaker on an outside faucet?

I'd also add a water pressure gauge inside the house to make sure the water company is keeping a minimum positive pressure of 20-40 lbs and there is no vacuum being created in the city water line by neighbors. A vacuum will constantly break PVC until you stop the vacuum.

You double oppose clamp the PE and use the proper torque wrench to tighten the clamps; plus a half turn. And do not tighten when the tubing is warm or hot. Over tightening clamps is the primary cause of leaks.

Thanks!!! I appreciate the help.