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dw85745
10-14-2004, 06:09 AM
Most commercial toilets have Chrome tubing with a flush handle and flush well.

I'm debating whether to try and install one of this type instead of a Toto Drake.

Question:

How does the commercial toilet of this type work (get the extra flushing force) and is it viable for residential applications?

Thanks
David

hj
10-14-2004, 06:53 AM
A few years ago the difference between a "commercial" and residential" toilet was that the commericial one could still be 3.6 gpf. That differentiation no longer exists so the two classifications now refer to where the toilet is being installed, rather than to the toilet itself. If you are referring to a toilet with a flushometer valve, then the extra force is a function of the greater water volume available because of larger supply pipes. It will not work in most residences because the pipes are too small. Besides the water outlet has to be high on the wall and most residential toilet water lines come out of the wall just above the floor.

dw85745
10-14-2004, 09:53 AM
Thanks for response hcj.

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It will not work in most residences because the pipes are too small.
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Do you know what pipe size is needed for the flushometer valve?

Thanks
David

Nana Beans
10-14-2004, 11:21 AM
restrictions were announced in California.... so we would have a 'back-up' in case we ever need to replace one of our three wall hung toilets. There was/is no difference in the plumbing installation/requirements from our existing toilets.... BUT that MAY be because it is a WALL HUNG unit.

(That crate stashed in the corner of the basement is a constant reminder that We MAY have blown $300 for nothing, however IF we ever need to replace one of our upstair toilets it will be worth every penny, as the wastes has an Extra long way to travel to get to the septic tank.... & we doubt that one of the lower gallonage toilets would provide enough 'momentum' to get the job done!)

Not sure IF this info will be of any help to you or not.....

Nana Beans

dw85745
10-14-2004, 12:19 PM
Thanks for responding:

hcj mentioned a larger pipe. I have a 3/4 meter but upsize to a 1 1/4 pipe to run to the house. Then downsize to 1/2 to feed the toliet. Since on pier and beam, line is easily accessible for upgrade if worth my effort.

Like yourself, on septic, but can't see where this should have an impact as long as load reached tank.

Terry
10-14-2004, 12:31 PM
The Flushometer valve needs a 1" supply. I wouldn't think that it would work any better than a Toto Drake toilet that will use the existing 1/2" supply you now have.

You would need 1" from the meter to the toilet.
Most bathrooms are plumbed with 1/2".
A few have 3/4"
Unless your meter is a 1.5" and you have run a 1.5" water main into the home, everytime you flush, it would cut the pressure everywhere else in the home. There are a few people that have tried this without tearing out and replacing pipes. The results have been disastrous.
In NYC that have these in highrise situations, but the water mains are in the 2" and larger range.
When I use flushometers commercially, we are running very large pipe from the meter to the bathroom sets.

I'm not all that impressed with most of the flush valve style bowls out there.
They still use 1.6 gallons, similar to a tank type toilet.
The water supply and meter need to be large enough, remember, there is no water storage tank, so the water needs a large supply of water, all at once.
Imagine being in the shower when that happens. Good Luck!

I use the Toto Drake commercially and for residential use all the time with good results. :)

Instructions (http://terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?t=743)

jadnashua
10-14-2004, 03:51 PM
Keep in mind that since the input to the house is 3/4", that is the limiting factor; you'll never get the volume of a 1" or the 1-1/4" line you have after the meter unless you pay for a larger supply (usually pretty costly - you tend to pay for the capability, not the actual usage in your base cost to the utility).

hj
10-14-2004, 07:31 PM
The pipe to the toilet would have to be at least 1" and possibly 1 1/4" if it is a long distance from the water meter.

RoyV.
10-15-2004, 10:10 AM
Take the advice of someone who put commerical toilets in new construction - DON'T DO IT!!!

I requested wall hung toilets downstairs (based on ones installed in a home we rented during construction) and the builder put in Kohler k-4329s with Sloan 900 conceiled push button valves - we had problems from the day we moved in. The major problem is that they NEVER should have been installed with a 10 gpm well system. Sloan never mentions gpm requirements in their literature but an equivalent Zurn valve, per installation instructions requires a minimum 30 gpm supply to properly work :mad:.

As potential fixes early on we swapped out the 1.6 gallon flush valves with 3.5 gallon flush valves - no help. When the well tank is close to refilling (e.g., 42 psi), there is no pressure to flush the toilets because the well tanks are close to empty. We struggled with this by upping the tank pressure, installing an additional 86 gallon Wellmate, etc. After two years, I finally ripped out the guest bathroom Kohler along with all the wall supports, the Sloan piping etc. and installed a Toto Ultramax based on feedback from this board. The Toto works wonderfully but it was a pain in the a** to retrofit it!

I couldn't believe all the extra work that was done on the Kohler vs. a floor mount toilet; the wall was blown out by additional 2x4s, additional joists were put in under the toilets, installation of the ZURN brackets, the Sloan valve, 1" plumbing lines, and more I can't think of at the moment.

I plan to rip out the other Kohler in a few weeks, but to save time, grief and cutting another hole through the tile and rerouting waste vent and plumbing lines, I plan to install an American Standard Glenwall (http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25073)(any feedback on this toilet?).

Sorry for the long response but trust me, do not install commercial toilets in a residence.

MarkHash
12-26-2007, 03:34 PM
My thoughts are to install a pressure tank close to and dedicated to the sloan flush valve, isolate it from the rest of the system by a fast acting Asco 1" electric gate valve. The valve would be controlled by a logic processor that takes input from a pressure switch also on that tank. It would be set to a higher pressure and allowed to run up to that pressure after every flush, as I would only use a single pressure trip setting, not a dual limit type. The other well tank would have a similar valve and operate at normal pressures for the sink and shower. Any thoughts?

Terry
12-26-2007, 03:54 PM
Yes,
You have way too much time on your hands.

A flushometer valve drops 1.6 gallons.

A Flushmate drops 1.6 gallons.

A gravity tank with 3" flapper drops 1.6 gallons

At this point, it's looking equal.

A toilet with a Flushmate works like a flushometer, but uses a tank to hold the water.

Or, as you mention, you can add an expansion tank to the system and plumb with a 1" line from the expansion tank.

At this point, the Flushmate toilet makes a lot more sense than a Flushometer equipped bowl with Expansion tank and plumbing between tank and toilet.

When a flushometer or Flushmate can't get the job done, I replace with a Toto Drake.
If the Drake handle is held down, it can flush 3.0 gallons in a flash.
I've found that when the pressure assist doesn't work, the gravity tanks do.

construct30
12-26-2007, 04:15 PM
We install one once in a basement, the customer wanted it. We put a well tank in a closet upstairs with a flow check on it, not fancey, just a regular flow check, ran the 1" pipe to the toilet, worked great. Kind of surprised me, surprised me more I thought of it. We had the toilet run with a 3/4" line didn't work, put in the tank worked great. He was after the look. More money than brains I thought. They don't flush any better.

MarkHash
12-26-2007, 04:32 PM
I hear you, but as I mentioned I have all the stuff. Some of my concerns are possible water hammer, well pump control timing, ect. I will have two valves that will alternate positions after each run up. The pressure differential between the two zones will probably be 30 to 40 psi. The processor (I have about 10 of them, mostly IDEC's) can time the well pump to any extent as far as start up and shut down in relation to the pressure sensor trips. It's pretty simple ladder logic that I've used for automation & light control for customers in the past. The Sloan specs say 30 gpm required or so for that very brief time to send 1.6 gallons down the pike. Not sure exactly what pressure that would call for but a 3/4 hp submersible will go up past 80 psi easily. Thanks for the reply/ies Terry.

http://www.brodersen.no/products/plc/idec/micro1/micro1.htm

MarkHash
12-26-2007, 04:36 PM
Construct, thanks for that, I fell better already, and I like the challenge. It is going in a garage/guest quarters that may also serve folks camping on my beach, so I want it powerful and easy to clean. Don't like tanks behind the toilet as they grunge up in all the knooks and crannies.

Herk
12-26-2007, 04:40 PM
If it's just the powered flush you want, then use a powerflush toilet. With a Sloan-built pressure tank, it will work on a normal plumbing system.

http://www.terrylove.com/images/flushmate503.gif

I have one and it flushes quite powerfully. However, I still prefer my Toto Drake.

Herk
12-26-2007, 06:39 PM
Most commerical toilets have Chrome tubbing with a flush handle and flush well.

I have to admit, when I first read this, I was picturing it in my mind: chrome tubing . . . yup. flush handle . . . yup. What the heck is a "flush well?"

Bob NH
12-26-2007, 08:00 PM
I hear you, but as I mentioned I have all the stuff. Some of my concerns are possible water hammer, well pump control timing, ect. I will have two valves that will alternate positions after each run up. The pressure differential between the two zones will probably be 30 to 40 psi. . . . .
http://www.brodersen.no/products/plc/idec/micro1/micro1.htm

Your design is altogether too complex and unnecessary.

If you get a 4 gallon expansion tank and precharge it at about 5 psi, then when your system reaches 25 psi you will have 2 gallons available for the flush valve. Connect that to the valve with a 1 1/4" line.

You can still use a 1/2" line to charge the tank, with a check valve in that line.

No electronics. No extra pump. It will recharge the tank in about 20 seconds. Nothing fancy; it just works.

construct30
12-26-2007, 08:15 PM
Your design is altogether too complex and unnecessary.

If you get a 4 gallon expansion tank and precharge it at about 5 psi, then when your system reaches 25 psi you will have 2 gallons available for the flush valve. Connect that to the valve with a 1 1/4" line.

You can still use a 1/2" line to charge the tank, with a check valve in that line.

No electronics. No extra pump. It will recharge the tank in about 20 seconds. Nothing fancy; it just works.

That's how I did it only on city water with check valve and we put the tank on the floor above, which may not have been necessary, but I figured gravity wouldn't hurt.

Redwood
12-26-2007, 09:45 PM
All installing a flushmate toilet will do over a Toto Drake is cost more for repairs! Other than that nata zilch nothing!

MarkHash
12-27-2007, 07:33 AM
Thanks guys, More things to fail is what I'm hearing. I guess I'll try it at normal pressure 1st, maybe with a check valve in the flush valve's tank supply line to give me some isolation when the flush occurs, but from reading the early posts just a 2nd tank wasn't a cure all. The specs call for 30 gpm, 1.6 gallons and I will have a 1" pipe to the valve, but they don't say the duration of the flush so I am missing the data to figure the psi required. I am at a remote location with just a submersible well pump and a 1" feed to the building. I guess I could have the whole water system at the higher pressure and have a flow switch to shut things down if something blows.

Scott
12-27-2007, 07:37 AM
I'm not sure what kind of warranty or after-the-sale-support Toto offers but Flushmates have a ten year warranty on parts and a lifetime warranty on the pressure tank.

When they're actually needed, Flushmate replacement parts can be had for the "cost" of a toll-free phone call.

On topic, I've known guys to have exposed flushometer valve toilets and urinals in their "man cave" but nowhere else if their wives have anything to say about it. :D

MarkHash
12-27-2007, 12:21 PM
Yeah, I will have a urinal too, mostly to avoid the splash mess, but I will still have the dribble mess. Can't believe the things i've seen in public rest rooms. Maybe I can sell advertising too. Thanks all for setting me straight, I'll try the suggestions 1st b4 getting too elaborate.

Michaelpo
10-04-2009, 12:35 AM
Hi guys, I'm considering a wall-mount over a slab with a sloan valve also. Input is standard city water pressure with a 3/4" line. Sounds like the pressurized well tank would give enough volume and pressure to operate this type of commercial toilet in a residential application. I like the American Standard Glenwall, but $600 is way over my budget. I can find decent, clean, used commercial wall mounts for around $100-$200. Anything I'm missing? Thanks for your help! Mike O.

Terry
10-04-2009, 11:40 AM
Input is standard city water pressure with a 3/4" line. Sounds like the pressurized well tank would give enough volume


You will need a 1" line from the pressure tank for the Sloan Valve to work.
So where are you mounting the pressure tank?

Michaelpo
10-05-2009, 08:39 AM
Hi Terry, I have a utility room with a washer/dryer in it. I would have to mount the tank against the back wall toward the ceiling with secure mounting. The line to the sloan would run thru the wall from the tank about 5 to 6 foot. Thanks, Mike

jadnashua
10-05-2009, 09:43 AM
A wall hung toilet can be made up with either a storage tank (similar to a typical toilet - could be hidden in the wall, but would need access for service), or just a commercial style flush valve. If you use a tank, then yes, my guess is you could get the thing to work with any supply, since it isn't relying on volume AND pressure from the line. A tank lets you fill it with whatever pressure you want, since it then uses gravity to flush the thing. Now, there might be a difference in the bowl depending on whether it is designed for a tank or a sloan valve...I don't know. Getting the right bowl refill may be tough with a tank, if it was designed for the other. And, as was noted, an older one may be designed for much more water than the newer ones. This could be a problem when you try to sell the house, and the inspector may give you grief now, as well.