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View Full Version : Using instant cement to join pvc and plastic pipe?



dubman
12-14-2008, 08:27 AM
I want to join a 110 mm pvc pipe to an old plastic toilet sewer pipe under the ground. The thing is the pvc pipe is 110 mm and the internal size of the plastic pipe is around 120mm, so I was thinking of just inserting the smaller pvc pipe about 4 or 5 inches inside the bigger pipe, and using normal builder's instant cement to fill in the space. First, I would pack in some tissue paper to stop the cement from going down along the pipe, leaving about 4 inches for the cement.

Would this solution be ok? Or should I use some other kind of cement? I think that silicone may not be very permanent... In any case I intend packing in normal cement all around the pipe, which I suppose would also help to seal everything? Thank you.

ExpertPlumberSVC
12-14-2008, 09:09 AM
I believe that your solution is acceptable. I have in the past used hydraulic cement to fill the voids around a piece of ABS pipe that I had inserted into a clay main drainage pipe. When the city Inspector arrived ... He O.K.'ed the work and we all were pleased.

dubman
12-14-2008, 09:17 AM
Great! So I don't suppose the instant cement would cause any problem by possibly expanding when it dries out...but in any case I suppose it could expand horizontally along the pipe, if it wanted to...

kingsotall
12-14-2008, 09:42 AM
They make clay to plastic no hubs.

Seems like the connection we are devising with the cement will inhibit blockages down the road. I think I have the flow figured in the right direction.

----------->
<---------

dubman
12-14-2008, 10:12 AM
It's a waste pipe from a toilet, so the flow is only in one direction. And I think the pipe has a slight downward fall / inclination.

Gary Swart
12-14-2008, 12:30 PM
It might work, I can say for sure that it won't. BUT, I'd still use a transition connector that is code approved for joining dissimilar pipes.

dubman
12-14-2008, 01:11 PM
the main pipe's been in the ground maybe 40 or 50 years - looks like white plastic.. I think (?) it's ok to use the instant cement - it's basically to seal odours, since there is a fall on the pipe anyway. The only concern would be if the cement might interact and damage the plastic or expand and cause cracks in the pipe....?

dubman
12-14-2008, 02:45 PM
And how about if I inserted the smaller pipe and put a rubber accordion ring around it (type use on toilet outlets), so that I can press fit it into place and then bury everything in cement? Would the rubber ring be permanent?

Gary Swart
12-14-2008, 02:48 PM
That pipe may be transite (spelling ???) which I think is a type of asbestos. I think it is a very durable pipe and even if it is asbestos, buried it would do no harm.

dubman
12-14-2008, 03:07 PM
well...doesn't look like typical asbestos..it looks plastic to me, same thickness as pvc tubing. I assume those rubber accordion rings would be relatively permanent if they are used on toilet outlets - though i don't know if they can be buried in cement. But in any case the outside of the joint would be covered in normal cement, which would presumably act as a seal as well?

Gary Swart
12-14-2008, 04:31 PM
If the pipe is as thin as you say, then it is likely PVC. For underground connections, a neoprene sleeve by Fernco would work fine. You need to get one that is made for the sizes you are joining. You may have to go to a real plumbing supply house rather than a home improvement store.

dubman
12-14-2008, 04:52 PM
Here is a photo of the waste pipe. There is a pvc patch on it from a few years ago. I have temporarily inserted the female side of an elbow joint, which shows the gap more or less. Do you think I could just use pvc cement or some other sealer...silicone? It's delicate work taking away the surrounding cement without breaking the pipe...

ExpertPlumberSVC
12-14-2008, 05:32 PM
I agree that whatever you use to seal your drain depends upon you providing a seal that does two main things ...

# 1) you MUST seal sewage against leakage and # 2) you must attempt to avoid penetration by root growth

use your best discretion when choosing your method.

sometimes the piping of your specific situation ( accessibility; for instance ) may certainly be a factor in deciding how to accomplish a task.

The technique or materials you ultimately decide to use should come rather easy now, because ALL of the preceding commented solutions which I've seen here are each VALID solutions ...

MERRY CHRISTMAS, and thanks ...

I just discovered this site today ... I am impressed and BTW ...

MY Question was answered here ... I Googled it and here I landed ... Thank you all ... Tomorrow I shall repair Marylin's shower

Gary Swart
12-14-2008, 05:55 PM
PCV "cements" aka "glue" is neither cement nor glue. It is a solvent that briefly melts the surfaces of the pipe and fitting being joined and when the two pieces are slipped together, the two surfaces combine to create a weld much like a metal weld. Moreover, the two pieces being joined must fit since the solvent weld does not fill in a void. This fit is so tight that it requires the pieces to be coated with the solvent before they will slip together. In other words, they can not be dry fit.

dubman
12-15-2008, 12:48 AM
So I cant use pvc cement, even if it does adhere to the plastic pipe, because the fit is too loose? I was just going to experiment trying a drop of pvc cement on a piece of the plastic pipe to see if it really sticks, but as you say if it is not a tight fit, there is no point. I also agree about the accessibility - since the access to the joint is very problematic, I thought that even inserting the elbow as in the photo with no sealent, but digging a bit more cement from around the underside of the joint, then I would be able to pack in lots of instant cement, which I assume would also give a pretty good seal, even if the seal is "outside" the joint. I would first put some tape or something around the joint to stop cement going inside the pipe. How aboiut that as a possibility?

kingsotall
12-15-2008, 06:22 AM
Chip out around the pipe (about 8") with clearances of atleast 3" all the way around the pipe. Get a measurement of the ID and OD of the pipe, take that measurement to a plumbing supply house, have them get you the appropriate size no-hub coupling, having let them know of the size of pipe you plan to transition to. They might even have a more appropriate size pipe then the street ell you have now.

dubman
12-15-2008, 10:30 AM
Just asked today in the main plumber suppliers in this area - they never heard of anything like a Fernco coupling. I asked a plumber who was in the shop. He said I should use chemical filler to seal the joint - looks like a silicone container, and it's usually used instead of rawl plugs. Then he said I could put a sleeve of pvc over the joint, which means you use about 2" of 110mm pipe, cut it, and heat to make it pliable so that it can be wrapped around the new joint and stick it with pvc glue. Well, I think its worth a try. Then I would fill in all around with cement and small stones. Not sure if I should first use some instant cement to cover the joint, because I imagine it is more water resistant than normal cement?

hj
12-15-2008, 11:53 AM
There are connections to join any two types of plastic pipe together, but NONE of them are cement of any type.

Redwood
12-15-2008, 12:15 PM
I don't know what kind of plumbing supply house you went to but....
This below is a picture of a Fernco coupling...

http://www.fdsons.com/images/plumbing/s2/6269799.JPG

They come in different sizes for different types and sizes of pipe.

http://www.fdsons.com/images/plumbing/fernco_reducing_flexible_coupling.jpg

dubman
12-15-2008, 02:01 PM
Please see the photo. Do you think this idea would work? My problem is that I can't seem to get the proper fittings in this part of Spain, and don't want to wait to order by mail.... Another option would be to make part "A" and part "B" equal in size, cut precisely to cover pipe "C"....Thank you.

Redwood
12-15-2008, 03:33 PM
I would take the pictures that I provided above with you to the supply house to see if they have similar connectors available. No doubt something similar is available.

hj
12-16-2008, 05:28 AM
Not much. PVC glue is not a "glue". It is basically a solvent that melts the pipes so they become one when it hardens, and it requires a tight fit to do it. It will not glue that segment into the coupling.

nhmaster
12-16-2008, 05:45 AM
Aren't we skirting the issue here? The only connection is the one acceptable by the code and as far as I know, packing tissue paper and some sort of cement is definatly not on the list. A Mission band or Fernco is the only acceptable connection here with the exception of male and female adaptors.

dubman
12-17-2008, 12:08 PM
I finally got the correct fittings / adaptors. Now my only problem is that since the old sewer seems to be plastic, I'm not sure if PVC glue would be ok for joining PVC and plastic? I experimented sticking two broken bits of the plastic together with pvc glue, the joint seems fairly strong, thought I was able to get some glue of the plastic with a screwdriver. Is there some better way to stick pvc and plastic?

Redwood
12-17-2008, 03:54 PM
Plastic...
Thats a pretty broad subject...
What kind of plastic?

jadnashua
12-17-2008, 03:59 PM
The PVC glue and primer is designed to liquify the plastic and when you stick two pieces of it together, after the solvent evaporates, leave the joint welded. Same sort of thing as the glue you may have used to glue together models as a child (well, adults do it too!).

dubman
12-17-2008, 04:25 PM
Do you mean that it is neccessary to use a coat of primer on the plastic before applying the pvc solvent? I would have thought that careful cleaning with water or something like cleaning alcohol would be sufficient? Or maybe alcohol would be unsuitable??
So basically, I take it that it would be ok to join plastic and pvc with the pvc solvent. BTW I haven't a clue what kind of plastic it is. It is a white colour, quite rigid and about the same thickness as pvc, but it's been in the ground for around 50 years or more, so I suppose pvc didn't exist then...

SewerRatz
12-17-2008, 04:34 PM
There is a coating on the PVC fittings and pipe that the primer removes as well as cleans the joint. Then you use the glue. Some glues only work on certain types of plastic. The types are PVC, SDR, ABS, and CPVC If your unsure of the type of pipe its probably best to use a no-shear coupling, to join the two pipes together. Its also called a shielded coupling.

http://media.mydoitbest.com/imagerequest.aspx?sku=430188&size=2&warehouse=C&newsize=200

Redwood
12-17-2008, 04:37 PM
BTW I haven't a clue what kind of plastic it is. It is a white colour, quite rigid and about the same thickness as pvc, but it's been in the ground for around 50 years or more, so I suppose pvc didn't exist then...

PVC was discovered as early as 1835.

By 1932, the first tubes made from a PVC copolymer were produced. Nearly three years later the first PVC pipes were produced using a roll mill and hydraulic extruder.

From 1936 to 1939 over 400 residences were installed with PVC drinking water and waste pipelines in central Germany. Various test pipelines of PVC were laid in Leipzig, Dresden, Magdeburg, Berlin, Hamburg, Cologne, Heidelberg and Wiesbaden during the period of 1936 to 1941.

It was not until 1950 that the systematic development of extrusion technology began. Prior to this, the manufacture of PVC pipe remained makeshift and the use of PVC pipes did not become widespread.

Sewer History.Org PVC History Page (http://www.sewerhistory.org/articles/compon/pdfs/pvc_history.pdf)

Verdeboy
12-17-2008, 08:26 PM
I would just use the PVC cement. My understanding is that it will fill in any gaps. The cement contains PVC resin and solvent. When the solvent dries, the PVC resin will fill the gaps with PVC. The only issue is whether it will "weld" the two pieces properly if the other "plastic" is not PVC. But I would try that route, since you obviously can't get a Fernco in Spain.

dubman
12-18-2008, 01:39 AM
Yea, I agree ...PVC glue, with good prior cleaning/ primer etc seems to be the best option in the circumstances.
Thanks for all the help.

kingsotall
12-18-2008, 06:01 AM
That was getting a little drastic with the tissue paper and mortar, throwing salt over the left shoulder only after waving your hand over your head two times clockwise, three times counter cockwise...

Gary Swart
12-18-2008, 07:59 AM
I guess the numerous explanations of how PVC "glue" isn't glue at all hasn't sunk in, and you are bent on using it to stick these pipes together. Yes, it will probably appear to have made the connections, but unless both pieces are PVC and unless the pipe and fittings are PVC of the proper size, the joint will fail.

Redwood
12-18-2008, 08:32 AM
I guess the numerous explanations of how PVC "glue" isn't glue at all hasn't sunk in, and you are bent on using it to stick these pipes together. Yes, it will probably appear to have made the connections, but unless both pieces are PVC and unless the pipe and fittings are PVC of the proper size, the joint will fail.

Yup, We are just....

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2/Redwood39/deadhorse.gif

Verdeboy
12-18-2008, 10:16 AM
How are you guys going to make it when the economy completely collapses and you can't do everything the exact, perfect way? He's in a place that apparently doesn't have the "perfect" solution to his problem, so he needs to ad-lib a bit.

The solvent in the PVC cement is strong and can dissolve many kinds of plastic. But if that doesn't work, he can use an epoxy to glue the two pieces together and fill the gaps. He can also clamp a piece of rubber over the glued joint for added support.

kingsotall
12-18-2008, 01:50 PM
VB, at that point it no longer becomes plumbing.

Redwood
12-18-2008, 02:42 PM
How are you guys going to make it when the economy completely collapses and you can't do everything the exact, perfect way?

It's pretty easy!

All we have to do is kick back and wait for about 1/2 the population to die off from diseases caused by the substandard plumbing. Should be plenty of assets for the rest of us survivors to divy up. Life should be good! At least the survivors will be the ones that know the value of good plumbing...

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2/Redwood39/plumbersprotectthehealthofournation.jpg

nhmaster
12-18-2008, 03:17 PM
Close enough is not good enough for plumbing. The joint formed by the proper use of primer and glue, between pvc pipe and fitting is a solvent weld. When the joint is dry, it is for all intents and purposes, one solid piece of pipe.

I find it hard to believe that it's impossible to get a Fernco or a mission band coupling in Spain. If you can't find it locally, buy one on line. This has become one of the dumbest threads ever.

theplumber
12-20-2008, 01:05 PM
Nohub is a plumbers best friend. You are over engineering this. I don't know about your neck of the woods but we don't use pvc on drains where I come from. Also, I've never seen a white plasic pipe of any type on wastelines from toilets here in CA. PVC gets used in condensate drains for A/C commonly but not waste water from toilets.

Listen to the nohub suggestions. They are spot on. Wholesale houses don't stock every type of nohub connectors. They just stock the most common ones. But in their catalogs, there is always a listing to connect any combination of sizes. Why aren't you trying to do this with ABS? I'm baffled as to why you are trying to use PVC.

Verdeboy
12-20-2008, 02:10 PM
Haven't you been following the thread?

The guy lives in some undeveloped part of Spain.
By the time he's done, he'll be on their plumbing advisory committee. ;)

SewerRatz
12-20-2008, 05:58 PM
One type of PVC cement will not work on other types of plastic pipes well not properly at all. Thats why there is ABS cement, CPVC cement, PVC Cement. Ask any plumbing inspector if you can glue a PVC fitting on a ABS pipe.

Verdeboy
12-20-2008, 06:02 PM
We've had this discussion before. The CPVC cement is exactly the same as the "all purpose" cement. So, either one of those has the best chance of working here.

kingsotall
12-20-2008, 09:13 PM
Also, I've never seen a white plasic pipe of any type on wastelines from toilets here in CA. PVC gets used in condensate drains for A/C commonly but not waste water from toilets.

Why aren't you trying to do this with ABS? I'm baffled as to why you are trying to use PVC.

The plumbers here that profess devotion to PVC gonna get you... :eek:

;)

Redwood
12-21-2008, 11:55 AM
Nohub is a plumbers best friend. You are over engineering this. I don't know about your neck of the woods but we don't use pvc on drains where I come from. Also, I've never seen a white plasic pipe of any type on wastelines from toilets here in CA. PVC gets used in condensate drains for A/C commonly but not waste water from toilets.

Listen to the nohub suggestions. They are spot on. Wholesale houses don't stock every type of nohub connectors. They just stock the most common ones. But in their catalogs, there is always a listing to connect any combination of sizes. Why aren't you trying to do this with ABS? I'm baffled as to why you are trying to use PVC.

Funny...
Here it is the exact opposite!
Why would anyone want to use that stuff that sags between hangers when you drain hot water through it?