New pool wiring

[gregs]

I am going to build a inground swimming pool very soon and would like to do the electrical portion of the work myself. I have done a fair amount of electrical work over the years and have a good understanding of it but I realize that the code for pool wiring can be tricky. I am going to need a 110v circuit for the light and a 220v circuit for the 1hp pump. In my garage I have sub panel that is unused and would like to use it for the pool. It is fed from a double pole 40a GFCI breaker and uses #8 NM cable from the main panel. It has 2 hots, 1 neutral, and one ground inside the sub panel. Can I use this as my feeder for the pool? I understand that I would need to run conduit from this panel to the equipment and have a insulated ground wire with the other power wires. I have also read the code on how to wire the light niche and understand that as well. I want to have my plan together before I pull the permit and talk to the inspector. Any ideas and help is greatly appreciated.

[jwelectric]

First help me by answering this question.

Are the panels both the service and 40 amp panel surface mounted or are they tied together with a raceway? Can you replace the cable between the two?

[jar546]

What code cycle are you governed by?

[gregs]

The sub is a surface mounted panel in the garage not connected with a raceway, just NM cable. The main is flush mount in an interior wall. The house is a split level with the garage on the 2 story side and the main panel in the single story side so access is very limited to change the wiring or add conduit.

I am not sure what code they are currently using. I would have to call the department as they dont list anything on their site and none of the forms I have say anything about it. I am located in N. Florida

[jar546]

Greg

You should be under the NEC 2005 effective December 8, 2006. Only Broward County, Miami/Dade County and Reedy Creek(Disney) have their own separate enforcement rules. From what I understand, June 1, 2009 will be bringing in the 2008 NEC.

There may be other requirements in the 2007 Florida Building Code which was recently adpopted last week on Dec 1, 2008.

You will have to pay particular attention to bonding and all of section 680 of the NEC

[gregs]

Thanks for checking on the code. Is there some where I can get a copy of the 680 section?

Any ideas on using the sub panel? I read some where about an exception to the interior feeder wire possibly not having to be in a raceway. Thanks

[Redwood]

Thanks for checking on the code. Is there some where I can get a copy of the 680 section?

National Electrical Code (http://www.nfpa.org/aboutthecodes/AboutTheCodes.asp?DocNum=70)

[jwelectric]

Thanks for checking on the code. Is there some where I can get a copy of the 680 section?

Any ideas on using the sub panel? I read some where about an exception to the interior feeder wire possibly not having to be in a raceway. Thanks

I always recommend that the equipment grounding conductor for an underwater light have an insulated copper conductor from the service equipment but it is not required in your case.

What you will have to watch is the equipotential bonding grid required by the 2005 code cycle. Here it would be a good idea to contact the inspections department to see what they will allow.

In the '05 cycle a grid is required to be installed under the decking around the pool for 3 feet out and has to be no less than 16 by 16 inch overlaid conductor of either rebar or #8 copper conductors.

In some places they are accepting a hog wire grid as long as it is of at least #8 wire

The light will be required to be in a raceway from the junction box all the way to the panel but the the circuit for the pump motor can be any wiring method once it is in the dwelling unit.

[gregs]

I think the light is my biggest misunderstanding. Are you saying I cant run it from the sub panel because the feeder for the sub panel is NM not in a raceway? Does the exception only apply the pump wiring?

[gregs]

Is this the correct wording for the 2005 code?

(F) Branch-Circuit Wiring.
(1) Wiring Methods. Branch-circuit wiring on the supply side of enclosures and junction boxes connected to conduits run to wet-niche and no-niche luminaires (fixtures), and the field wiring compartments of dry-niche luminaires (fixtures), shall be installed using rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, liquidtight flexible nonmetallic conduit, or rigid nonmetallic conduit. Where installed on buildings, electrical metallic tubing shall be permitted, and where installed within buildings , electrical nonmetallic tubing, Type MC cable , or electrical metallic tubing shall be permitted.

And would that allow the set-up I am considering?

[jwelectric]

I think the light is my biggest misunderstanding. Are you saying I cant run it from the sub panel because the feeder for the sub panel is NM not in a raceway? Does the exception only apply the pump wiring?

680.23(F) Branch-Circuit Wiring.
(1) Wiring Methods. Branch-circuit wiring on the supply side of enclosures and junction boxes connected to conduits run to wet-niche and no-niche luminaires (fixtures), and the field wiring compartments of dry-niche luminaires (fixtures), shall be installed using rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, liquidtight flexible nonmetallic conduit, or rigid nonmetallic conduit. Where installed on buildings, electrical metallic tubing shall be permitted, and where installed within buildings, electrical nonmetallic tubing, Type MC cable, or electrical metallic tubing shall be permitted.

Exception: Where connecting to transformers for pool lights, liquidtight flexible metal conduit or liquidtight flexible nonmetallic conduit shall be permitted. The length shall not exceed 1.8 m (6 ft) for any one length or exceed 3.0 m (10 ft) in total length used. Liquidtight flexible nonmetallic conduit, Type B (LFNC-B), shall be permitted in lengths longer than 1.8 m (6 ft).

(2) Equipment Grounding. Through-wall lighting assemblies, wet-niche, dry-niche, or no-niche luminaires (lighting fixtures) shall be connected to an insulated copper equipment grounding conductor installed with the circuit conductors. The equipment grounding conductor shall be installed without joint or splice except as permitted in (F)(2)(a) and (F)(2)(b). The equipment grounding conductor shall be sized in accordance with Table 250.122 but shall not be smaller than 12 AWG.

Exception: An equipment grounding conductor between the wiring chamber of the secondary winding of a transformer and a junction box shall be sized in accordance with the overcurrent device in this circuit.

(a) If more than one underwater luminaire (lighting fixture) is supplied by the same branch circuit, the equipment grounding conductor, installed between the junction boxes, transformer enclosures, or other enclosures in the supply circuit to wet-niche luminaires (fixtures), or between the field-wiring compartments of dry-niche luminaires (fixtures), shall be permitted to be terminated on grounding terminals.

(b) If the underwater luminaire (lighting fixture) is supplied from a transformer, ground-fault circuit interrupter, clock-operated switch, or a manual snap switch that is located between the panelboard and a junction box connected to the conduit that extends directly to the underwater luminaire (lighting fixture), the equipment grounding conductor shall be permitted to terminate on grounding terminals on the transformer, ground-fault circuit interrupter, clock-operated switch enclosure, or an outlet box used to enclose a snap switch.


From the "sub-panel" to the junction box for the light the equipment grounding conductor is required to be at least a #12 insulated copper conductor that is installed in a raceway.

The exception in 680.25 the exception will allow the "sub-panel" to be wired with an equipment grounding conductor that is not insulated.

Exception: An existing feeder between an existing remote panelboard and service equipment shall be permitted to run in flexible metal conduit or an approved cable assembly that includes an equipment grounding conductor within its outer sheath. The equipment grounding conductor shall comply with 250.24(A)(5).

This exception is for existing panels only.

I personally recommond that the equipment grounding conductor for a pool light to be continuous from the junction box at the pool all the way to the service disconnect. The less places that the equipment grounding is likely to fail the better. This light which uses electricity to fuction is in the same water you are going to be so it is important to ensure that it doesn't fail.

I would like to see all lights including fiber optic outlawed for pools.

[gregs]

The sub panel in the garage is existing along with the NM feed to it and the 40a GFI breaker.
My plan is to run rigid pvc conduit to the equipment and pool light with the correct size insulated ground. I just wanted to know if the sub panel would be to code before I pull the permit and start the process. And with the 2005 code it sounds like it would? Any other thoughts on this?

Next question. What would be the most efficient way to handle the feed, disconnect and connections at the equipment pad? I know I need a disconnect for the pump and planned on using a a/c type disconnect for it, but what about the light? Can I run one 220v 4 wire feed from the sub panel to the disconect and split from it to my pool light and equipment? If I need to run an extra insulated non broken ground wire for the light I will do that. I plan on putting the switch for the pool light on the outside of the house in a surface mounted weather proof enclosure and surface mounting the pvc conduit to it. Thanks for the help

[220/221]

I have seen it passed and I have seen it turned down in cases just like yours.

It was turned down because the ground wasn't insulated all the way to the service.


Around here, if they don't install a pool equipment sub panel, they generally use a 240v switch in a wp box for a disconnect.

I am a big fan of sub panels at the pool equipment. They aren't expensive and give you more options. They make a special pool sub with built in timer (s) and spaces for the light GFCI and X10 modules for remote light switching.

[gregs]

I guess my plan would be to draw it up and list what I am doing (how I have done permits in the past) and submit it with the permit application and see if anything comes of it.

If I used a pool sub panel at the equipment could I remove the sub panel in the garage and replace it with a junction box? I figure I only have #8 and a 40a breaker so there be much else I could run off of it any way.

Do you have any more info on the pool panels? The remote light switching is attractive.

Thanks

[220/221]

If I used a pool sub panel at the equipment could I remove the sub panel in the garage and replace it with a junction box?

This you cannot do. You would be feeding your pool equip with NM (no insulated ground). If you come from the garage sub, some inspectors would consider it good enough to take the insulated ground from that point instead of to the service.

Google intermatic pool timers http://www.inyopools.com/Products/02400001004796.htm?CS_010=4796&CS_003=905765

http://www.inyopools.com/images/intermatic21001r.gif

[gregs]

I understand and will leave well enough alone and hope the inspectors lets it go. If he does question it I will plead my case with the 2005 code.

As for for the feed to the outside. Can I run 1 220v 4 wire feed to the disconnect and then split a 110v for the light circuit and a 220v for the pump? Or would it be better to take out 2 seperate feeds from the sub 1 for the light and 1 for the pump? And if I did that would I need a disconnect for the light circuit and what could I use, would the on/off switch work? The pump, I would use either a pool panel or a a/c type disconnect. Thanks again

[220/221]

Skip the AC disconnect idea.

A 6 or 8 space panel is under $30 and breakers are $4 a pole. Run your 4 wire, 30 or 50 amp feed to the equipment location and you will have 120v, 240v means of disconnect taken care of.

[gregs]

If I understand you correctly. Install a outdoor rated breaker panel fed from the sub panel in the garage at the pool pad. Then the breakers will serve as the disconnects.

[jwelectric]

I would check with the inspections department first as some inspectors believe this to mean that there can be only one remote panel (subpanel) between the pump motor and the service disconnect

680.25 Feeders.
These provisions shall apply to any feeder on the supply side of panelboards supplying branch circuits for pool equipment covered in Part II of this article and on the load side of the service equipment or the source of a separately derived system.

Also these feeders will need to comply with Article 225. This would mean that the pool panel will require a disconnect that is service rated complete with grounding electrodes.

[220/221]

Install a outdoor rated breaker panel fed from the sub panel in the garage at the pool pad. Then the breakers will serve as the disconnects.


Correct.

Here is my pool panel. It's kind of ugly but it's hidden behind the bar. GFCI and pool light switch are mounted on the side. It also gives me a 120V source for irrigation timer, landscape lights, cabana lights/fan/receps.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a8/JohnC1952/DSC02071.jpg

Like I said, it's ugly, but hidden.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a8/JohnC1952/DSC02068.jpg

[gregs]

Is it feed directly from the main panel? I was wondering about whether a second sub panel (1st is the garage sub) would be a code problem. Thanks

[220/221]

Mine comes from the main service panel.

Again, it's open to interpetation. I've seen it passed coming from an NM fed sub and I have heard of it failing because of the lack of a insulated ground back to the service.

I think the code says insulated to the service equipment which can be interpeted as the pool panel or the service panel.

[jwelectric]

Mine comes from the main service panel.

Again, it's open to interpetation. I've seen it passed coming from an NM fed sub and I have heard of it failing because of the lack of a insulated ground back to the service.

I think the code says insulated to the service equipment which can be interpeted as the pool panel or the service panel.


I agree that it will be all in the inspector. I will say that I wouldn't accept it due to the verbiage in (B) below
680.25 Feeders. (B) Grounding. An equipment grounding conductor shall be installed with the feeder conductors between the grounding terminal of the pool equipment panelboard and the grounding terminal of the applicable service equipment or source of a separately derived system. For other than (1) existing feeders covered in 680.25(A), Exception, or (2) feeders to separate buildings that do not utilize an insulated equipment grounding conductor in accordance with 680.25(B)(2), this equipment grounding conductor shall be insulated.

[220/221]

THAT's the section I was talking about.


Service Equipment - The necessary equipment, usually consisting of circuit breakers or switches and fuses and their accessories, connected to the load end of service conductors in a building, other structure (or an otherwise designated area) and intended to constitute the main control and cutoff of the electricity supply.

Sounds like anything past the first breaker/fuse is not part of the service equipment.

What is the 680.25A exception for existing feeders?

[Speedy Petey]

What is the 680.25A exception for existing feeders?Just that, for feeders that are existing.

When the panel will be in a garage, shed or other detached structure we many times install a panel first, then do the pool equipment later to get around this "all conduit" requirement for the feeder. This way we can run NM inside the existing home or structure and conduit outside underground like any other detached sub-feed.

[jwelectric]

Once again please save yourself some grief by making a simple telephone call to ask the question.

Some areas look at 680.25 as pertaining to pools and the exception as pertaining to an existing feeder for a pool not an existing feeder to a remote panel that is now going to be used to supply a pool.

In other words if a pool or pool house panel was already fed with a cable it is allowed to remain even if upgrading the pool but a new pool installation is not allowed to be fed from an existing remote panel fed with a cable.

[gregs]

My plan is to draw things up and take it to the county with me when I apply for the permit. Hopefully I can find out if it will be a problem or not.

Now a question about the pool light conduit. I know about the conduit between the deck box and niche and the extra ground wire, does the connections for the pool light have to be made in that deck box? Or can I loop the cord thru it and back to another junction box where I would have a light switch? I bought a pool light with a 100' cord so it seems like a waste to chop it off short. I guess I could put the deck box closer to the area where the light switch would be so long as it meets the code for height and distance from water.

[jwelectric]

My plan is to draw things up and take it to the county with me when I apply for the permit. Hopefully I can find out if it will be a problem or not.

Now a question about the pool light conduit. I know about the conduit between the deck box and niche and the extra ground wire, does the connections for the pool light have to be made in that deck box? Or can I loop the cord thru it and back to another junction box where I would have a light switch? I bought a pool light with a 100' cord so it seems like a waste to chop it off short. I guess I could put the deck box closer to the area where the light switch would be so long as it meets the code for height and distance from water.

That would depend on the type of niche used for the luminary

[gregs]

I am not sure on the niche, but if it makes a difference I am not talking about the conduit going from the deck box to the niche but rather the conduit going back to the house.

[jwelectric]

I am not sure on the niche, but if it makes a difference I am not talking about the conduit going from the deck box to the niche but rather the conduit going back to the house. Again the placement of the junction box for the light will depend on the niche that the light sits in.


Also remember the EGC can not be broke from the panel to the junction box from the light

[gregs]

It will be a PVC niche probably a Pentair niche connected with rigid pvc conduit. I am not sure if they refer to it as a wet or dry but it does use a rubber seal around the cord and ground wire.

[jwelectric]

I am not sure if they refer to it as a wet or dry but it does use a rubber seal around the cord and ground wire.

The question needs to know before an answer can be given

[frenchelectrican]

It will be a PVC niche probably a Pentair niche connected with rigid pvc conduit. I am not sure if they refer to it as a wet or dry but it does use a rubber seal around the cord and ground wire.



There is wet and dry verison of pool luminaire and you have to get the specifics from the manufacter to determed which one.

This part you can not make a second guess on this one.

Sorry if I am being rude in here but the NEC code on pool sections is very strict.

Merci,Marc

[gregs]

Not a problem, was waiting for Pentair to email me back. It will be a wet niche. Pentair does not even make a dry niche.

Thanks again for the help

[jwelectric]

Not a problem, was waiting for Pentair to email me back. It will be a wet niche. Pentair does not even make a dry niche.

Thanks again for the help

(B) Wet-Niche Luminaires.
(1) Forming Shells. Forming shells shall be installed for the mounting of all wet-niche underwater luminaires and shall be equipped with provisions for conduit entries. Metal parts of the luminaire and forming shell in contact with the pool water shall be of brass or other approved corrosion-resistant metal. All forming shells used with nonmetallic conduit systems, other than those that are part of a listed low-voltage lighting system not requiring grounding, shall include provisions for terminating an 8 AWG copper conductor.

(2) Wiring Extending Directly to the Forming Shell. Conduit shall be installed from the forming shell to a junction box or other enclosure conforming to the requirements in 680.24. Conduit shall be rigid metal, intermediate metal, liquidtight flexible nonmetallic, or rigid nonmetallic.
(a) Metal Conduit. Metal conduit shall be approved and shall be of brass or other approved corrosion-resistant metal.
(b) Nonmetallic Conduit. Where a nonmetallic conduit is used, an 8 AWG insulated solid or stranded copper bonding jumper shall be installed in this conduit unless a listed low-voltage lighting system not requiring grounding is used. The bonding jumper shall be terminated in the forming shell, junction box or transformer enclosure, or ground-fault circuit-interrupter enclosure. The termination of the 8 AWG bonding jumper in the forming shell shall be covered with, or encapsulated in, a listed potting compound to protect the connection from the possible deteriorating effect of pool water.

(3) Equipment Grounding Provisions for Cords. Wet-niche luminaires that are supplied by a flexible cord or cable shall have all exposed non–current-carrying metal parts grounded by an insulated copper equipment grounding conductor that is an integral part of the cord or cable. This grounding conductor shall be connected to a grounding terminal in the supply junction box, transformer enclosure, or other enclosure. The grounding conductor shall not be smaller than the supply conductors and not smaller than 16 AWG.

(4) Luminaire Grounding Terminations. The end of the flexible-cord jacket and the flexible-cord conductor terminations within a luminaire shall be covered with, or encapsulated in, a suitable potting compound to prevent the entry of water into the luminaire through the cord or its conductors. In addition, the grounding connection within a luminaire shall be similarly treated to protect such connection from the deteriorating effect of pool water in the event of water entry into the luminaire.

(5) Luminaire Bonding. The luminaire shall be bonded to, and secured to, the forming shell by a positive locking device that ensures a low-resistance contact and requires a tool to remove the luminaire from the forming shell. Bonding shall not be required for luminaires that are listed for the application and have no non–current-carrying metal parts.

(6) Servicing. All wet-niche luminaires shall be removable from the water for inspection, relamping, or other maintenance. The forming shell location and length of cord in the forming shell shall permit personnel to place the removed luminaire on the deck or other dry location for such maintenance. The luminaire maintenance location shall be accessible without entering or going in the pool water.


680.24 Junction Boxes and Electrical Enclosures for Transformers or Ground-Fault Circuit Interrupters.

(A) Junction Boxes. A junction box connected to a conduit that extends directly to a forming shell or mounting bracket of a no-niche luminaire shall meet the requirements of this section.
(1) Construction. The junction box shall be listed as a swimming pool junction box and shall comply with the following conditions:
(1) Be equipped with threaded entries or hubs or a nonmetallic hub
(2) Be comprised of copper, brass, suitable plastic, or other approved corrosion-resistant material
(3) Be provided with electrical continuity between every connected metal conduit and the grounding terminals by means of copper, brass, or other approved corrosion-resistant metal that is integral with the box
(2) Installation. Where the luminaire operates over 15 volts, the junction box location shall comply with (A)(2)(a) and (A)(2)(b). Where the luminaire operates at 15 volts or less, the junction box location shall be permitted to comply with (A)(2)(c).
(a) Vertical Spacing. The junction box shall be located not less than 100 mm (4 in.), measured from the inside of the bottom of the box, above the ground level, or pool deck, or not less than 200 mm (8 in.) above the maximum pool water level, whichever provides the greater elevation.
(b) Horizontal Spacing. The junction box shall be located not less than 1.2 m (4 ft) from the inside wall of the pool, unless separated from the pool by a solid fence, wall, or other permanent barrier.
(c) Flush Deck Box. If used on a lighting system operating at 15 volts or less, a flush deck box shall be permitted if both of the following apply:
(1) An approved potting compound is used to fill the box to prevent the entrance of moisture.
(2) The flush deck box is located not less than 1.2 m (4 ft) from the inside wall of the pool.

(B) Other Enclosures. An enclosure for a transformer, ground-fault circuit interrupter, or a similar device connected to a conduit that extends directly to a forming shell or mounting bracket of a no-niche luminaire shall meet the requirements of this section.
(1) Construction. The enclosure shall be listed and labeled for the purpose and meet the following requirements:
(1) Equipped with threaded entries or hubs or a nonmetallic hub
(2) Comprised of copper, brass, suitable plastic, or other approved corrosion-resistant material
(3) Provided with an approved seal, such as duct seal at the conduit connection, that prevents circulation of air between the conduit and the enclosures
(4) Provided with electrical continuity between every connected metal conduit and the grounding terminals by means of copper, brass, or other approved corrosion-resistant metal that is integral with the box
(2) Installation.
(a) Vertical Spacing. The enclosure shall be located not less than 100 mm (4 in.), measured from the inside of the bottom of the box, above the ground level, or pool deck, or not less than 200 mm (8 in.) above the maximum pool water level, whichever provides the greater elevation.
(b) Horizontal Spacing. The enclosure shall be located not less than 1.2 m (4 ft) from the inside wall of the pool, unless separated from the pool by a solid fence, wall, or other permanent barrier.

(C) Protection. Junction boxes and enclosures mounted above the grade of the finished walkway around the pool shall not be located in the walkway unless afforded additional protection, such as by location under diving boards, adjacent to fixed structures, and the like.

(D) Grounding Terminals. Junction boxes, transformer enclosures, and ground-fault circuit-interrupter enclosures connected to a conduit that extends directly to a forming shell or mounting bracket of a no-niche luminaire shall be provided with a number of grounding terminals that shall be no fewer than one more than the number of conduit entries.

(E) Strain Relief. The termination of a flexible cord of an underwater luminaire within a junction box, transformer enclosure, ground-fault circuit interrupter, or other enclosure shall be provided with a strain relief.

(F) Grounding. The equipment grounding conductor terminals of a junction box, transformer enclosure, or other enclosure in the supply circuit to a wet-niche or no-niche luminaire and the field-wiring chamber of a dry-niche luminaire shall be connected to the equipment grounding terminal of the panelboard. This terminal shall be directly connected to the panelboard enclosure.