High Iron and smell- Should I buy this house? Help please

[yoxman13]

My wife and I are in the process of buying a house we like, but the Iron content is 16 ppm and manganese is 0.96, pH 6.5. There is a rotten egg smell in both hot and cold that takes a long time to dissipate if the water is run. There is reddish brown staining in the toilets. Currently there is a 1996 two tank treatment system, but it obviously is not up to the task. House has been unoccupied for almost two years, but we ran the water for a least 8 hours total recently, but still have the high numbers

Am I better off passing on the house rather than try to treat water with this high of an iron content?

We have spoke with 4 local water treatment business and get 4 different opinions, often also explaining why the other guys system will be ok for a few months then fail. Would really like to get educated here, thanks.

[drick]

I guess the question is how much do you like the house? 16ppm is very high iron (mine is 12ppm last check). The good news is its treatable, the bad news is its gonna cost you. Knock 15K off the asking price just because of this! You can fix your iron problem for about half this assuming you can live with average (not spectacular) water pressure. Also you may find that the high iron has damaged your pipes, water heater, dishwasher etc so be prepared for this possibility

What type of well do you have? How deep is it? What is its GPM recovery rate of the well? How many GPM does the well produce (get a 5gal bucket, open up the outside faucet, see how long it takes to fill it, and do the math) What are the low/cut it, high cut out water pressure readings on the gauge at the pressure tank? Do the neighbors also have high iron and sulfide smell? Is there anything else you can tell us about the well itself???

What type of filter system is installed currently? What is its approximate age? What were the recommendations of each of the four water treatment companies? DO you want someone to install this for you or are you up for a moderate DIY project?
-rick

[leejosepho]

... Iron content ...
... rotten egg smell in both hot and cold ...
... reddish brown staining ...
... two tank treatment system ...
House has been unoccupied for almost two years ...

Our house had been sitting empty for only one year when my wife and I first moved in, but our overall water situation was then very similar to yours. I stumbled along trying various things for a while and added filters ahead of the softener, then finally sanitized (chlorinated) the well and all the plumbing in the house over a two-day period.

I do not know exactly how or why, but we no longer have a staining problem even though a very slight odor still does occasionally come and go. Our water heater is set at 140*, and that definitely helps. Then most recently, a significant increase in the overall volume of water used here has been keeping the odor away almost completely.

I had not noticed any of the water problems here before we got this place, but I can say I would have proceeded anyway ... and having since found this discussion board, I can tell you there are people here who can definitely steer you toward quality water.

[yoxman13]

Hi Everyone,

Thank you for the replys

Here is some of the information asked for in the forum:

Total Hardness : 84.64 mg/l
Sufates: 16.21 mg/l
Chlorides 56.16 mg/l
Hardness: 84.64 (mg/l)
Turbidity 77.8 NTU

The water appears clear after running for a bit, but I do not know quanity of ferric vs ferrous iron. I assume there is a special test for that?

Well Depth is approx 130 feet, drilled in 1996,
The home inspector measured 4gpm, but that was taken on an outside spigot, after a long run of pipe, so I think the actual flow rate may be higher. He also measured 40 psi with the water shuf off. I do not have any info on cut-in / off.

The house is in Madison CT

The current system is a 1996 water softener with some type of pre-filter tank.
The neighbors have 4 tank systems, not sure of the type, which they claim to work ok as long as the water is run, but if they go away on vacation for a week, the water smells for 3 days or so. One recently measured 13ppm iron. They all said their treatment companys told them the water is OK to drink, they drink bottled water……..

All of the water contractors are suggesting using an ion exchange water softener, with various types of pre-filters. One wants to use catalyzed carbon, calcium and manganese as a pre-filter, another wants to use and aeration system as a pre-filter, another had a pre-filter that required a very small amount of chlorine bleach, but I do not have the details from him with me right now.

I am willing and able to perform a DIY project, even a big one ( fwiw, I am a engineer in the aerospace industry and work on hydraulic systems), but with the levels this high think I need an expert to at least determine what type of system can handle this water and not be a huge hassle.

I appreciate your replies!

[speedbump]

Whatever iron passes the carbon, the softener will pick up as well as the hardness.

Are you suggestion using carbon as an iron filter?

bob...

[drick]

I would go with a chlorinator, 120 gallon retention tank, a 2 cubic foot auto backwash carbon the a 90k-120k softener. It is the most effective way I have found to get the water right. The chlorine does 3 things to the water. Kills bacteria, oxidizes the iron, and the h2s. Then the carbon will pick up the chlorine. Whatever iron passes the carbon, the softener will pick up as well as the hardness.

First he needs to find out what size filters he can backwash. The outside faucet test only yielded 4gpm, which seems wrong given the pressure switch is most likely set at 60/40psi. He needs to determine the actual GPM output of the well after the pressure tank so the filters can be sized appropriately. MAKE SURE all the filters are bypassed when you test. The low GPM you measured leads me to believe the filters were online at the time of the outside faucet test. The outside water should not be filtered, but thats another story.

I mostly agree withe the above suggestion, however I would filter the iron using filox. Look here: http://www.pwgazette.com/filoxfilters.htm. I tried filtering with just carbon and the results were only fair at best. Adding a filox filter totally solved my iron problem to the point where hardly any iron even makes it to the carbon filter. You can't go with just the filox filter though because you need to remove the chlorine before it gets to the water softener. Chlorine will destroy the water softener resin eventually. The flow would be as follows chlorination -->retention tank --> filox filter --> centaur carbon filter -->water softener. That said you may still end up needing airation in front of all this to get rid of the hydrogen sulfide gas smell. I'd try it without it, but pipe your system in such a way so that you can add an airation tank in front of the chlorinator without having to re-pipe too much.

So with the final product you will have 3 backwashing filters and a chlorinator that need some degree of baby sitting. Its not as bad as it sounds, mostly just adding a gallon of plain old chlorine bleach once a month, maybe mixed with some soda ash to bump the PH a bit. And the water softener will need salt added probably at about the same time. The carbon will need replacing every 2-4 years as it will eventually become saturated.

Also, invest in a water testing kit so you can track the ph, chlorine, and hardness levels yourself. You can test for iron as well, but you will discover it will be 0 or almost 0 after that much filtering. The chlorine will bond with the iron so if you have it set at 4ppm before the retention tank tank you should see approx 1ppm just before the carbon filter and 0ppm after it. Any more than 1ppm you will use up the life of the carbon unnecessarily fast. Lower than that and you may not be oxidizing all the iron.
-rick

[drick]

Yes. It works quite well with oxidzed iron.

Drick....Filox may be good but I don't use it because of it's weight. With low flow rate, it packs and becomes useless.

You are right it is very heavy, and you have to allow for that by using a smaller tank otherwise you will have backwash problems. I was prepared to run two tanks in parallel to increase removal capacity, but it was not needed as the 1.0cuft tank works fine for me on 12ppm iron. My flow rate is 9gpm at 50psi (35/55 cut in/out) and I have no problem backwashing with a 1.0 cuft tank. With just a 1.5cuft centaur carbon filter I was not getting clear water - better than without, but not clear.

-rick

[Gary Slusser]

Chlorine will oxidize all the things that can be oxidized; iron, manganese, H2S, and it will kill all types of bacteria.

You do not want to use any type of carbon to remove iron.

The 4 gpm at an outside faucet is low but you can not use that to determine the flow rate to equipment right after the pressure tank. He would replace the plumbing to the equipment with 1". I don't think a 1 cuft Filox filter will work very long, how old is it now? And the flow rate it can service is only like 4 gpm/cuft.

I suggest he look at the drop pipe in the well to see how blocked up it is and if he has IRB or other types of reducing bacteria. Possibly replace it and clean up the pump inlet if it is blocked. If there is blockage, a pellet dropper on the well, a mixed bed turbidity filter and then Centaur and then a softener. If no blockage, then an inline pellet chlorinator including the mixing tank, the Centaur filter and a softener.

[99k]

Have you tested your water for radon? I strongly recommend that you do this test before your contingency expires. I also recommend you do not use any carbon until you know your radon levels since carbon can become radioactive from the radon daughter elements. We worked on a house similar to this that had high radon, Iron, and Manganese. The pretreatment before the radon system was manganese greensand regen with chlorine and then followed by a softener.

[yoxman13]

We did test for Radon in the water and it came back at approx "1600" vs "5000" allowable. This was a vebal report from the lab, waiting for the hardcopy arrive.

[speedbump]

Yes. It works quite well with oxidzed iron.

I guess it's allright if you expect to change it every 6 months or sooner. I don't think carbon was designed to be used as an iron filtering media. And I think you would be doing a customer a disservice recommending such an idea.

bob...

[speedbump]

Well, I've been doing it for over 10 years.

I installed my first Iron filter and Water softener in 1962. So let's not go there.


I also believe in it so much, I put a 5 year warranty on the carbon and have not had to change any under warranty.

That's another thing. I wouldn't want any customer of mine to leave carbon in for five years if chlorine was being used. Or for that matter even if it wasn't being used. I have seen too much of it that has been left in that long and it's pretty disgusting.

bob...

[drick]

You do not want to use any type of carbon to remove iron.


I was under the impression that Centaur is a type of carbon. See http://www.ohiopurewaterco.com/shop/customer/home.php?cat=339. Anyway, that is what I have and alone it did not remove all the iron. I figured the 1.5cuft filter just couldn't handle 12ppm of iron so I added the 1 cuft filox filter in front of it. It is safe to say from the backwash that the filox filter is removing 95% of the iron at the moment.



I don't think a 1 cuft Filox filter will work very long, how old is it now? And the flow rate it can service is only like 4 gpm/cuft.


Service rate is rated at 6 gpm/cuft. See http://www.premium-water-filters.com/oxidation/documents/Filox-R.pdf The filter is new (installed in March 08). As I understand it Filox is a relatively new filter medium. I have no idea how it will hold up over time - fingers crossed - but my water has been clear since installing it. IMO it seems to backwash very well as I can clearly see all the iron coming out 20 seconds into the backwash and continues that way for about a minute before becoming visibly clearer. I am backwashing it daily for 10 minutes at 9gmp (thats the best I can get with the pump I have).

Sorry for the thread hijack yoxman13.
-rick

[99k]

We did test for Radon in the water and it came back at approx "1600" vs "5000" allowable. This was a vebal report from the lab, waiting for the hardcopy arrive.


Assuming you used a certified technician and lab, that number is fine with carbon

[Bill Arden]

This thread reminds me of this Rack fame sized vacuum phase distiller I was bidding on. I got outbid, but that would have done the job :cool:

Why wouldn't one of those green sand iron filters work.

Then again the system that's there probably just needs maintenance.

[drick]

Why wouldn't one of those green sand iron filters work.

They only work to 15ppm iron max. Even if this was not a problem his PH is out of range and would have to be neutralized first. And green sand requires KMNO4 (potassium permanganate - somewhat hazardous) along with a couple hundred gallons of water in order to regenerate.



Then again the system that's there probably just needs maintenance.

Maybe. I'd be more optimistic if it had a retention tank. That doesn't mean he can't use what is there as part of a new setup though.

-rick

[Gary Slusser]

I was under the impression that Centaur is a type of carbon.
It is. I think you are assuming that iron or rust will get to it but you're forgetting the mixing tank. It keeps the ferric iron/rust in the tank.


Anyway, that is what I have and alone it did not remove all the iron. I would have told you that instead of selling you something that wouldn't work. OPW does that frequently.


I figured the 1.5cuft filter just couldn't handle 12ppm of iron so I added the 1 cuft filox filter in front of it. It is safe to say from the backwash that the filox filter is removing 95% of the iron at the moment.
My system will remove 100% of it. And as time goes by your Filox probably will allow more and more iron through it.


Service rate is rated at 6 gpm/cuft.
Which is good for like a 1.5 bath house with 2 people in it, a larger number of people and more standard bathrooms and it's too small. A big tub or shower and it's way too small for just 2 people. OPW doesn't get into that, I do.


As I understand it Filox is a relatively new filter medium. Sorry for the thread hijack yoxman13.
-rick
Yes it is, but IMO it isn't as good as Pyrolox but I won't sell either. That's after selling many filters using Pyrolox in the 1990s.

Yoxman and others can learn a lot from this discussion so I don't see any hijacking.

[Gary Slusser]

There is a twin tank type softener there now. The house has sat empty for over two years. It was an elderly couple and it appears the softener wasn't maintained and it is bypassed. The house was built in 1996 IIRC and I'd suspect the softener was bought then. So it would need new resin in both tanks at least and if it's a Fleck control, maybe new seals spacers and a piston and brine valve probably.

[drick]

I would have told you that instead of selling you something that wouldn't work. OPW does that frequently.

I don't see how the system you are recommending here is much different than mine was before I added the filox filter: chlorinate-->retention tank --> centaur. I started at 12ppm iron and still had 4-5ppm after the centaur filter. Are you using the water softener to remove the remainder of the iron? BTW the system was not purchased from OPW. I just like their website:)



And as time goes by your Filox probably will allow more and more iron through it.
Maybe, but at the moment this is speculation probably based on your experience with Pyrolox and on the assumption the filox will not fully backwash. I am using a vortex tank hoping this will help, and you may turn out to be correct, but so far I notice no degradation of the filox filter's ability to remove iron.



Which is good for like a 1.5 bath house with 2 people in it, a larger number of people and more standard bathrooms and it's too small. A big tub or shower and it's way too small for just 2 people. OPW doesn't get into that, I do.


I agree with your sizing, but I don't think you could have helped me. In my case the problem here is my well pump only delivers 9gpm and almost all backwashing filters require a higher backwash rate than service rate so I'm sort of stuck unless I upsize my well pump (risky), store and repump, or run parallel filters.
-rick

[gmrules]

Was a great and interesting read But I still do not know if he should or should not buy the house??

[speedbump]

Was a great and interesting read But I still do not know if he should or should not buy the house??

With all the experience I have had with high iron content, I wouldn't buy the place. It's a never ending maintenance problem. There is no equipment out there that the head and the nozzle venturi (if using KMNO2) won't plug up in a short time. I don't know of any way to clean out a backwashing head once plugged with iron, so look for a large expense down the road.

Anyone who tells you their equipment will last for 7 to 10 years with 12 parts of iron is just blowing smoke.

bob...

[yoxman13]

Thank you everyone for your replys. I have decided to cancel the contract on the house and get my deposit money back. From everything that I learned, with iron at 16ppm and a smell this bad, it is going to require more effort to keep this water clean than I am willing to do for this house. I have learned a great deal from this thead and will be ready to put in a system when I buy a house, which hopefully will have water that is a little easier to mangage.

[Gary Slusser]

I don't see how the system you are recommending here is much different than mine was before I added the filox filter: chlorinate-->retention tank --> centaur. I started at 12ppm iron and still had 4-5ppm after the centaur filter. Are you using the water softener to remove the remainder of the iron? BTW the system was not purchased from OPW. I just like their website:)
Surely you're joking or you don't know much about me. I would have told you to get the chlorine to work as it should have and saved you whatever you paid for the Filox filter plus, you still aren't getting all the iron out and are depending on the softener to get the last 1 ppm out.

The chlorine should oxidize all of it and all odors unless chemical. You probably didn't have the feeder set up right, weakening solution or improper retention time.


Maybe, but at the moment this is speculation probably based on your experience with Pyrolox and on the assumption the filox will not fully backwash. I am using a vortex tank hoping this will help, and you may turn out to be correct, but so far I notice no degradation of the filox filter's ability to remove iron.
No it's based on what you've said here and my experience with all heavy minerals used for iron, manganese and H2S like greensand and Pyrolox etc..


I agree with your sizing, but I don't think you could have helped me. In my case the problem here is my well pump only delivers 9gpm and almost all backwashing filters require a higher backwash rate than service rate so I'm sort of stuck unless I upsize my well pump (risky), store and repump, or run parallel filters.
I have been a full line full time water treatment dealer since 1987. I have anything any one could need up to large commercial on 3" water lines. So yes I could have helped you as I said above.

As to your pump only delivering 9 gpm, I'll bet you it can deliver more than 9 gpm. I suspect your measurement of the gpm is incorrect by using a 1/2" or 3/4" outside faucet or the same size boiler drain on the tank tee to measure it or, you measured the draw down gallons of the pressure tank which does not give you the gpm flow rate from the pump; it only gives you the time and gallons to refill the tank. IIRC, I mentioned that to you before and you told me that's what you did. I guess you still don't believe me. What that tells you is the time the pump runs to check if the pump is short cycling; not staying off for at least 60 seconds for up to a 1.5 hp motor/pump. The only way to do it right is to disconnect the incoming pipe from the pressure tank's tee, or out at the well by pulling the pump drop pipe some and running the pump to measure open discharge gpm. Ask any pump guy to check that out, although I've been one for a number of years.

[Gary Slusser]

Thank you everyone for your replys. I have decided to cancel the contract on the house and get my deposit money back. From everything that I learned, with iron at 16ppm and a smell this bad, it is going to require more effort to keep this water clean than I am willing to do for this house. I have learned a great deal from this thead and will be ready to put in a system when I buy a house, which hopefully will have water that is a little easier to mangage.
As I mentioned that's not a bad choice especially if the seller won't come down. But the same equipment is used if the iron is over say 5 ppm the amount of iron and odor. Only the size of filters changes.

[drick]

I would have told you to get the chlorine to work as it should have and saved you whatever you paid for the Filox filter plus, you still aren't getting all the iron out and are depending on the softener to get the last 1 ppm out.

I get all or almost all the iron out (I only have test strips which appear read 0 after filtering) and I DO NOT use a water softener. It seems the filox filter pulls out most of it and the centaur gets the remainder.



The chlorine should oxidize all of it and all odors unless chemical. You probably didn't have the feeder set up right, weakening solution or improper retention time.

Hmm, maybe. I airate my water before the chlorine feed. I rely on that to oxygenate the water to some degree so I can set the chlorine feed as low as possible. By the time the water gets to the centaur tank the residual chlorine is down to 1ppm (starts out at 4ppm). This seems ok to me. Weakening solution is no doubt a problem on some level. I did consider adding a tank mixer, but at the moment the water is okay and I don't want to complicate things more than I already have. I try not to mix more that 1 month of solution at a time.



I have been a full line full time water treatment dealer since 1987. I have anything any one could need up to large commercial on 3" water lines. So yes I could have helped you as I said above.


I don't see how. You can't get water where there isn't any. That is, short of a bigger pump, a storage tank, or redrilling the well I'm not going to get more water for backwashing my filters. Thats my problem in a nutshell. When the pump fails I'll most likely be in a better financial position and I'll redrill deeper in search of more water, but until then I'm stuck.



I suspect your measurement of the gpm is incorrect by using a 1/2" or 3/4" outside faucet.
Your correct it was a 1/2 inch outside faucet, but I allowed the pump reach a point where it stopped cycling before I took the measurement (9 gpm).



As to your pump only delivering 9 gpm, I'll bet you it can deliver more than 9 gpm.

Probably, but not much more and not for long. The well is 375 feet deep, recovers at +/- 2gpm and has a 5 gpm pump set 20 feet off the bottom. Static water level is 6 feet below the top of the well head. The lousy recovery rate coupled with the fact I run an irrigation system off this well in the summer doesn't make me feel too comfortable about upsizing the gmp of the pump.



The only way to do it right is to disconnect the incoming pipe from the pressure tank's tee, or out at the well by pulling the pump drop pipe some and running the pump to measure open discharge gpm. Ask any pump guy to check that out, although I've been one for a number of years.

I'm aware of this. However, the fact that my pump stops cycling not too long after opening the outside faucet leads me to believe the pump doesn't have much more to give.

Thanks for your input though, its been an interesting thread! When either the filox or the pump fails I'll go back and revisit the centaur not removing the iron problem.
-rick