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jwelectric
12-01-2008, 09:16 AM
In lieu of resent events and comments on this site something came to mind from a question from another site.

It has been said that proper terminology is not a factor in giving advice on a DIY web site. It has also been implied that the DIYer donít need to fully understand just what is taking place in a circuit in order to work with electricity.

Here is a problem for some of you to think about and see if you can come up with an answer.


I have a 100 watt and a 50 watt light bulb connected to opposite legs of a multiwire circuit. I open the neutral of these two circuits which bulb will burn brighter?

This is a question I ask in the first semester of an electrical class. We then go to the lab and see just what happens.

Unless you can answer this question and explain why then you should be asking yourself if you should be messing with an electrical circuit.
Should you come in contact with a 120 volt circuit the same will happen to you as happens with these two bulbs.

jwelectric
12-01-2008, 12:26 PM
20 views and no replies??????????

frenchelectrican
12-01-2008, 12:35 PM
I have a 100 watt and a 50 watt light bulb connected to opposite legs of a multiwire circuit. I open the neutral of these two circuits which bulb will burn brighter?

This is a question I ask in the first semester of an electrical class. We then go to the lab and see just what happens


C'est simple one word Ohm Laws you can not bend , beat or do houdi on this one.

My answer is 50 watt bulb will burn much brighter while the 100 watter will be dim or not even glowing.

Merci,Marc

jamiedolan
12-01-2008, 12:44 PM
20 views and no replies??????????

It took me a few minutes to set this up and give it a try. I of course knew that I would be feeding 240 to the bulbs once the neutral was open, and I suspected that the bulb with a filliment with less resistance would be brighter, the 40 w bulb in my test setup.

And I was correct, the 40 watt bulb became much brighted once the neutral was opened. The 100w bulb did not go out, but became dim.

So the test confirmed what I suspected would happen.

Did I understand what happened properly, that the 40 became brighter instead of the 100 because it's filiment has less resistance?

Jamie

frenchelectrican
12-01-2008, 12:48 PM
Jamie .,

You got the correct answer there.

Merci,Marc

jamiedolan
12-01-2008, 12:54 PM
Thanks for the confirmation Marc.

ok JW, I am ready for the next question / experiment, don't make it too hard...

Jamie

jwelectric
12-01-2008, 12:58 PM
It took me a few minutes to set this up and give it a try. I of course knew that I would be feeding 240 to the bulbs once the neutral was open, and I suspected that the bulb with a filliment with less resistance would be brighter, the 40 w bulb in my test setup.

And I was correct, the 40 watt bulb became much brighted once the neutral was opened. The 100w bulb did not go out, but became dim.

So the test confirmed what I suspected would happen.

Did I understand what happened properly, that the 40 became brighter instead of the 100 because it's filiment has less resistance?

Jamie

But the two burned as they were supposed to before the neutral was opened did they not.

Why did they react the way they did?

What changed?

The wattage of the bulbs did not change did it?

Why did they change?

220/221
12-01-2008, 02:49 PM
Unless you can answer this question and explain why then you should be asking yourself if you should be messing with an electrical circuit

I disagree.

I thought that the bulbs would burn out @ 240 volts.

I've been messing with electrical circuits most of my adult life.

jadnashua
12-01-2008, 03:20 PM
The two bulbs end up looking like they are in series. The larger the resistance gets a bigger voltage drop across it, so the smaller bulb which had to have a greater resistance to only use the smaller amount of power now gets a larger voltage across it and burns brighter. It might not last all that long because the voltage should be more than 120V. This assumes that the neutrals between the two light sockets are still connected, providing a path for the current to complete the circuit. If one bulb was twice the wattage of the other, the higher wattage bulb should show 80vac across it, and the smaller bulb 160vac (i.e., 2/3 verses 1/3).

power....bigger bulb....neutral to other socket....smaller bulb...other power lead. Series connection.

jimbo
12-01-2008, 03:53 PM
What is different is that you now have 2 resistances in series with the total 240 volts. You will have a certain current flowing ( I think it is 0.55555 amps) and whatever that current is, it will be the same through both bulbs. The bulb with the lower original wattage rating has a higher resistance. But since it is now in a simple series circuit, the higher resistance bulb will consume more watts. The 100 watt bulb will be glowing dimmer than "normal" and the 50 watt bulb will be brighter than "normal".

jar546
12-01-2008, 04:35 PM
Can I take a stab at it??

OK, under normal circumstances the 100w bulb would draw .8A and the 50w bulb would draw .4A PROVIDING the feed is from separate phases.

The return to the grounded conductor (neutral) would only be .4A when both bulbs are on.

Then you take away the neutral (you bad boy) and make the circuit a 240vac series circuit.

The resistance of the bulbs does not change but since they are different it changes the voltage because they are in series.

The 100w bulb with 144 ohms is now drawing approximately 80 volts therefore making it very dim since it is way below its voltage rating.

The 50w bulb with 288 ohms is now drawing approximately 160 volts, way above its rating and will probably burn out soon.

The total draw on this circuit is now .6 amps at 240vac where with the shared neutral at 120vac it was only .4 total.

The idea here is that the resistance and amperage changed the voltage in a series circuit.

That was a good question and I only hope that I got it right.

Thanks Jw

jamiedolan
12-01-2008, 06:28 PM
But the two burned as they were supposed to before the neutral was opened did they not.
Yes they did burn correctly at first, just as they would on a regular MWBC.
Why did they react the way they did?
Because each leg of the MWBC landed on a different leg of the panel, so feeding in power, without the neutral was equivlent to hooking up a 240v connection to the lamps.

What changed?

The wattage of the bulbs did not change did it?

Why did they change?

It no longer had a neutral to use as a return current path, so the current then started acting as a 240 connetion, where the neutral is not used as a regular return path. Now that is the point I get confused as to exactly what is going on beyond this point, can you point me in the right direction so I have a better understanding of what is happening here?

Thanks
Jamie

jamiedolan
12-01-2008, 06:37 PM
The two bulbs end up looking like they are in series. The larger the resistance gets a bigger voltage drop across it, so the smaller bulb which had to have a greater resistance to only use the smaller amount of power now gets a larger voltage across it and burns brighter. It might not last all that long because the voltage should be more than 120V. This assumes that the neutrals between the two light sockets are still connected, providing a path for the current to complete the circuit. If one bulb was twice the wattage of the other, the higher wattage bulb should show 80vac across it, and the smaller bulb 160vac (i.e., 2/3 verses 1/3).

power....bigger bulb....neutral to other socket....smaller bulb...other power lead. Series connection.

This is what I thought, it ends up being like a series setup in a way. I need to go get out a meter and actually take readings off of each bulb. I am not sure though if I am going to see reduce votlage when taking a reading between the 2 lights on the "neutral" connection or if I am going to see increased voltage there.

I suspect that testing from line side of the 40 watt bulb to the neutral side when running as 240, I am going to see the higher 160+volts. Then on the other side on the 100 watt bulb, I suspect that I am going to read a lower 80voltish reading on that one. I suspect that whatever the 2 readings are that they will both add up to a total of 240v. (i.e. one will be 160v, one will be 80v total 240v)...

Jamie

seaneys
12-01-2008, 07:12 PM
In lieu of resent events and comments on this site something came to mind from a question from another site.

.....

Unless you can answer this question and explain why then you should be asking yourself if you should be messing with an electrical circuit.
Should you come in contact with a 120 volt circuit the same will happen to you as happens with these two bulbs.

It's a neat question that is often used in second semester physics for engineers. I'd be very disappointed if a sophomore in engineering did not get the question right. They might need a circuit diagram to understand what you were trying to say.

I'm also very certain that I would not want most undergraduate engineers near my wiring. Maybe a few that grew up building stuff.

Steve

hj
12-01-2008, 07:46 PM
That once happened in the entire house when I disconnected an electric water heater. ALL the light bulbs which were turned on burned out, along with the TV, radio, and other appliances which were running at the time.

jadnashua
12-01-2008, 08:35 PM
Keep in mind that a meter is sort of like a light bulb...when you insert it in the circuit between say ground and neutral, you've now connected them together albeit with a very high resistance. It's more realistic to have a load in the circuit (say a lamp on), then measure voltages between neutral and ground or neutral and hot, or hot and ground. A high impedance meter can introduce its own oddities.

If you have any electronic dimmers or digital timers or photocells in the circuit, they could be connecting things together but drawing milliamps.

jwelectric
12-01-2008, 08:56 PM
All and all you all did very good on this experiment a couple of mistakes from a couple of posters but all in all very good.

First in a 240 volt single phase panel there is only one phase present. Yes I know that there two voltages present but only one phase.

When the neutral is opened or broke or unconnected the circuit becomes a series 240 volt circuit instead of the parallel 120 volt circuit that we had with the neutral attached, closed or on. As several has already pointed out Ohmís law can be used to show the voltage drop across each bulb. If both of these bulbs had of been the same size when the neutral was opened you wouldnít have notice any difference between them. If we remove the neutral coming into our homes the same effect will occur to our 120 volt circuits in the house.

Current leaves one leg of the phase and returns through the other leg just as in any 240 volt circuit. In the 120 volt circuit the current will leave one leg and return half way through the phase on the center tap or the neutral. This center tap is always grounded or connect to earth at both the utility pole and again at the building served.

I can go out side and touch the bare copper conductor that is attached to my ground rod with out feeling a thing. This grounding electrode conductor is connected to the neutral either in the meter base or to the neutral bar in the service panel.
But if I disconnect the neutral and touch it and the neutral bar in the panel at the same time I would be dead.

We manipulated the current flow through the bulbs by opening a conductor. We could see the results of what happens when we change the path of current flow. We determined that in a series circuit that the voltage drop will be greater across the load with the most resistance.

Now for one more problem, letís add one more resistor in series with this circuit of 5000 ohms. This is the average resistance of the human body when it is completely dry and has no wounds exposed to the points of contact (taken from OSHA).

How much of a voltage drop is across the human body?

What happens to the light bulbs?

More so than any thing else what happens to the human body?

Just as with the 50 watt light bulb the human body will burn brighter than the 100 watt light bulb. All of that heat will be in this human causing severe damage to the internal organs.
Now if you think that a Do-It-Yourselfer can learn enough to keep his/her self safe by posting and reading a couple of post on the internet then I surrender all my years of experience and knowledge to nothing more than a waste of time.
Praise God and greyhounds give me a pipe wrench cause I already know that a stack vent is dry and a vent stack is wet I am going into plumbing.

Thank you

leejosepho
12-02-2008, 03:05 AM
... implied that the DIYer don’t need ...

Since "DIYer" is singular, the word there would be "doesn't" ...


All [in] all you all did very good ... all in all very good.

... and the word there would be "well", as in:

"It is good when everyone in class does well while trying to do some good!


It has been said that proper terminology is not a factor in giving advice ...

I agree with you, JW. Words and wordings are quite important.

jwelectric
12-02-2008, 06:42 AM
Thank you Lee for your expertise in the English language.
Notice that the sentence above showing gratitude for your knowledge of the English language, although it conveys a message does not have an action segment or verb if you like.
This is grammar or the structure of a language something that is taught in communication classes such as elementary school English.

Terminology on the other hand is a study of terms. Terminology is used to define something within a discipline or specialty field.

With your help maybe the two of us can learn how to construct a message that not only has good grammar but the proper terminology.

Thatguy
12-02-2008, 07:07 AM
Incandescent lamps act like resistors whose resistance value is current-dependent. The cold resistance is 10x or 15x lower than the hot resistance so they sort of act to maintain constant current in a circuit like this.

Regarding safety, and the big picture: somehow, I can't imagine how, only 1300 people per year are electrocuted in the U.S.
Maybe it is their natural fear of something invisible and hard to understand and that can cause harm. On the other hand, with moving machinery and the like, the danger is obvious (to adults).

1300 is "down in the noise."
Hospitals kill 90,000/yr. Highways kill 40,000/yr. Smoking kills ~400,000/yr. Food poisoning, 5000/yr.

jwelectric
12-02-2008, 07:43 AM
Thank you for the post and the numbers concerning the number of death annually due to electrocution.

When displaying those numbers as a whole to show that more people die annually from smoking or car accidents than from electrocution it doesnít look very bad or dangerous.

But on a side note;
If even one of them was one of my family members I donít think those numbers would have very much meaning to me. If one of those numbers was me I donít think my children would much care about those numbers either.

Now couple all those numbers together with the total number of people that smoke daily and those that drive daily with the total number of do-it-yourselfers that are working on live electrical circuits daily and the ratio looks drastically different.

Again thank you for those numbers as even 1300 annually is way two many for something that can be avoided.

sjsmithjr
12-02-2008, 10:00 AM
Now couple all those numbers together with the total number of people that smoke daily and those that drive daily with the total number of do-it-yourselfers that are working on live electrical circuits daily and the ratio looks drastically different.

Yep. Also consider that of the 1300 deaths attributed to electrocution, only 135 or so were work related deaths. That ratio doesn't work out so well for the inexperienced either.

220/221
12-02-2008, 05:16 PM
I still think it's a trick question.

I still want to know why the bulbs don't burn out?

Anybody?

240V thru a 120V filiment?

Anybody?

jimbo
12-02-2008, 05:39 PM
It is NOT 240 through a 120 filament. It is 240 through TWO 120 filaments in series. As mentioned, the lower wattage bulb will receive somewhat more than its rated current, so will have a shorter life, but would not usually blow immediately.

jadnashua
12-02-2008, 05:44 PM
Voltage drops across resisters in series based on their ratio of resistance...the higher the resistance, the larger the voltage drop across it. More resistance, more voltage. A short is like a zero resistance resistor...no voltage drop across (or along, if you prefer). All wires have some resistance, so if you have a good enough meter, you can measure it.

maintenanceguy
12-02-2008, 07:49 PM
....
Here is a problem for some of you to think about and see if you can come up with an answer....

Unless you can answer this question and explain why then you should be asking yourself if you should be messing with an electrical circuit.
Should you come in contact with a 120 volt circuit the same will happen to you as happens with these two bulbs.

I disagree with this statement because I didn't know which would burn brighter.

I can quickly calculate the current through each bulb and I can see that the 40W bulb would be brighter than usual and the 100W bulb would be dimmer than usual but that doesn't mean that the 40W bulb would be brighter than the 100W bulb.

The problem isn't a lack of understanding of electric. I just don't know the relationship between current and lumen output or even the relationship between lumen output and perceived brightness.

seaneys
12-02-2008, 08:12 PM
Yep. Also consider that of the 1300 deaths attributed to electrocution, only 135 or so were work related deaths. That ratio doesn't work out so well for the inexperienced either.

I'm not sure you can relate this to DIY'er.

Is there anything to indicate they weren't simply using their hair dryer in the shower?

jwelectric
12-02-2008, 09:40 PM
I disagree with this statement because I didn't know which would burn brighter.

I can quickly calculate the current through each bulb and I can see that the 40W bulb would be brighter than usual and the 100W bulb would be dimmer than usual but that doesn't mean that the 40W bulb would be brighter than the 100W bulb.

The problem isn't a lack of understanding of electric. I just don't know the relationship between current and lumen output or even the relationship between lumen output and perceived brightness.

It is okay if you want to disagree with me and I am sure that there are many that does.

If you don't know the relationship between lumen and current the answer can be found by clicking here (http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showpost.php?p=169531&postcount=4)

jwelectric
12-02-2008, 09:42 PM
I'm not sure you can relate this to DIY'er.

Is there anything to indicate they weren't simply using their hair dryer in the shower?
I would say this would fall under the inexperienced

sjsmithjr
12-03-2008, 06:32 AM
I would say this would fall under the inexperienced

Yep. One should also consider that some number of the 135 workplace fatalities were not qualified electricians. We are constantly reminding our guys in the field that unless they are a qualified electrician that they are not to attempt electrical work of any kind.

Thatguy
12-03-2008, 02:10 PM
Wiki says incand. lamp power is proportional to V^(1.6).

Based on this, I for a 100w bulb = .047[V1^(0.6)] and I for a 50w bulb = .024[V2^(0.6)], with V1 and V2 the voltage across each, respectively.

Since current is the same in a series circuit, these two equations must be equal to each other, and V1 + V2 must equal 240v.

By trial and error, my spreadsheet tells me that the 100w bulb has 57v across it and the 50w has 183v across it. I'm too lazy to solve it the other way.

There is also the issue of luminous efficiency, but I think with this voltage difference the 50w will shine brilliantly for its very short life.

seaneys
12-03-2008, 03:21 PM
Yep. One should also consider that some number of the 135 workplace fatalities were not qualified electricians. We are constantly reminding our guys in the field that unless they are a qualified electrician that they are not to attempt electrical work of any kind.

Hmmm.. Are you sure? The only two people I know of who were killed by electrocution were electricians. One was a friends dad from high school, the other was a lineman at our local power company.

The death of the lineman is hearsay I guess, but the source was one of his team members.

Steve

sjsmithjr
12-03-2008, 04:37 PM
Hmmm.. Are you sure? The only two people I know of who were killed by electrocution were electricians. One was a friends dad from high school, the other was a lineman at our local power company.

The death of the lineman is hearsay I guess, but the source was one of his team members.

Steve

Actually, I was incorrect about the number of fatalities. About one worker (as opposed to electrician) dies every day as a result of electrical hazards while 135 died last year from contact with power lines. OSHA revised their electrical installation standards last year, noting that "while not the leading cause of workplace deaths, electrical accidents are disproportionately fatal when they do occur."

Also to clarify, our companies policy is that only a qualified electrician can perform electrical work. That means that the qualified electrician (meaning someone licensed in the state we are working) has to actually perform the work; he can't tell Steve to connect the black wire here, the white wire there, and do the hokey pokey. This isn't our policy because we're nice guys - if our LWCIR (feel free to google it) gets to high we'll be out of business.

By the way Steve, forgive me if I wasn't paying attention, but what exactly is your area of expertise again?

220/221
12-03-2008, 07:05 PM
It is NOT 240 through a 120 filament. It is 240 through TWO 120 filaments in series. As mentioned, the lower wattage bulb will receive somewhat more than its rated current, so will have a shorter life, but would not usually blow immediately.

One filament, two filaments...I still think it would burn out immeadiatly. I'll try it someday soon.

And why do you say it would not usually blow out immeadiately?

jwelectric
12-03-2008, 08:36 PM
One filament, two filaments...I still think it would burn out immeadiatly. I'll try it someday soon. Until the filament gets to the melting point it will emit light. This may burn like this for several hours before blowing


And why do you say it would not usually blow out immeadiately? The main reason I will say it won’t burn out immediately is because I have done it no less that 27 times in the past 9 years. That is three classes a year for the past nine years. You can do the same experiment with 120 volts wired in series.

dx
12-03-2008, 10:05 PM
Thatguy gets the prize for most thorough understanding and knowledge of electricity. He actually calculated the voltages.

jwelectric gets the prize for most astute lightbulb shopper :) He actually found bulbs that withstand 183V for at least the duration of a lab session! That bulb dissipates 1.96 times its rated power.

Dunbar Plumbing
12-03-2008, 10:50 PM
Crispy Strips! (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f5c_1217506214)


Got a Ground? (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=815_1203399759)


Honey, What in the world did you flush? (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=393_1220768640)


Whoops! (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5d0_1205545672)

Mikey
12-04-2008, 05:16 AM
This may deserve another thread, but if we were all sitting around discussing the 100W/50W thing over a few beers, I would bring up this puzzler eventually, so here goes:

At the bar of the Magic Castle in Hollywood there is a display consisting of a standard line cord feeding 4 devices mounted on a wooden board. All wiring is exposed, and everything is in series as follows:

Hot side of the line cord -> Red knife switch -> light socket with red bulb in it -> Green knife switch -> light socket with green bulb in it -> neutral side of line cord.

Starting out with the thing plugged into a standard 120VAC receptacle, both knife switches open, both bulbs are out.
-close the red switch: the red bulb lights.
-close the green switch: the green bulb lights (red bulb stays lit).
-open the red switch: red bulb goes out (green bulb stays lit).
-open the green switch: green bulb goes out.

Now interchange the bulbs, so that the green bulb is where the red one used to be, and vice-versa. Again,
-close the red switch: the red bulb lights.
-close the green switch: the green bulb lights (red bulb stays lit).
-open the red switch: red bulb goes out (green bulb stays lit).
-open the green switch: green bulb goes out.

Explain.

jwelectric
12-04-2008, 08:13 AM
This may deserve another thread, but if we were all sitting around discussing the 100W/50W thing over a few beers, I would bring up this puzzler eventually, so here goes:

At the bar of the Magic Castle in Hollywood there is a display consisting of a standard line cord feeding 4 devices mounted on a wooden board. All wiring is exposed, and everything is in series as follows:

Hot side of the line cord -> Red knife switch -> light socket with red bulb in it -> Green knife switch -> light socket with green bulb in it -> neutral side of line cord.

Starting out with the thing plugged into a standard 120VAC receptacle, both knife switches open, both bulbs are out.
-close the red switch: the red bulb lights.
-close the green switch: the green bulb lights (red bulb stays lit).
-open the red switch: red bulb goes out (green bulb stays lit).
-open the green switch: green bulb goes out.

Now interchange the bulbs, so that the green bulb is where the red one used to be, and vice-versa. Again,
-close the red switch: the red bulb lights.
-close the green switch: the green bulb lights (red bulb stays lit).
-open the red switch: red bulb goes out (green bulb stays lit).
-open the green switch: green bulb goes out.

Explain.

It is magic

Thatguy
12-04-2008, 10:23 AM
standard line cord feeding 4 devices mounted on a wooden board.
All wiring is exposed, and everything is in series as follows:

Hot side of the line cord -> Red knife switch -> light socket with red bulb in it -> Green knife switch -> light socket with green bulb in it -> neutral side of line cord.

Starting out with the thing plugged into a standard 120VAC receptacle, both knife switches open, both bulbs are out.
-close the red switch: the red bulb lights.
Violates Ohm's law.

I say, Hoax.:cool:

Thatguy
12-04-2008, 10:24 AM
Thatguy gets the prize for most thorough understanding and knowledge of electricity.

That and $2 buys me a cup of coffee.
What guy are you talkin' about???:D

Mikey
12-04-2008, 10:30 AM
It is magic
Close...

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

-- Arthur C. Clarke. "Technology and the Future". Report on Planet Three (http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/susan/bib/nf/c/clarke.htm#report3). 1972

Mikey
12-04-2008, 10:33 AM
I say, Hoax.:cool:
Nope... not even close.

Thatguy
12-04-2008, 12:00 PM
Nope... not even close.
If it's not a hoax, it means I am assuming something that is not true.
Can you post a photo, on the assumption that words have failed me?

Mikey
12-04-2008, 12:19 PM
If it's not a hoax, it means I am assuming something that is not true.
Correct.


Can you post a photo, on the assumption that words have failed me?
Sorry, no. But it looks exactly as described, like an old-time piece of laboratory equipment. It's on a nicely-finished wooden board. The line cord is attached to two surface-mounted terminal posts. A wire goes from one post to one end of the knife switch. Another wire goes from the other end of the knife switch to one terminal on a surface-mounted ceramic socket, into which one bulb is screwed. Another wire goes from the other socket terminal to one terminal of the 2nd socket, etc.

Here's a hint, maybe. I was puzzled at first, but when everything behaved identically when the bulbs were swapped in their sockets, I knew immediately what the magic was.

seaneys
12-04-2008, 08:51 PM
By the way Steve, forgive me if I wasn't paying attention, but what exactly is your area of expertise again?

I spend a lot of time deciphering analytical information. I make a decent living at it. I guess I could throw out degrees and certifications too, but I'm not sure that is important.

Your numbers are intriguing, but you have not tied them to fatalities or injuries of homeowners attempting to perform electrical work in their own premises. They are great numbers, but it's not possible to draw conclusions from them without additional detail.

I'm all ears if you have reliable stats that relate an increase in electrical deaths, fires, etc. to DIY activities. Did I miss something in your argument?

A lot of this type of information is public, Quite a bit is even online if you have access to a good academic data source. I did some checking do not see a reference.

Steve

Dunbar Plumbing
12-04-2008, 08:59 PM
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Got a Ground? (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=815_1203399759)


Honey, What in the world did you flush? (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=393_1220768640)


Whoops! (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5d0_1205545672)






What?

You no Rikey?

I guess I'll have to come up with more gore to get the point across that licensed electricians are a must!



Here's a sampler (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_f3o4ohARs) of what's to come!

seaneys
12-04-2008, 09:11 PM
By the way Steve, forgive me if I wasn't paying attention, but what exactly is your area of expertise again?

Now that you have me digging.

Where did the 1300 come from? It is almost 3x higher than any reference I can find without using Lexis / Nexis.

Steve

jwelectric
12-05-2008, 06:56 AM
Steve

The bottom line here is people are dying from something that can be prevented.

Someone good with numbers can manipulate numbers to make any statistic look the way they want it to so I just donít put a lot of faith into them. OSHA has one set of numbers and AMA has another set of numbers.

All one has to do is pay a little attention to the type of questions being asked on these DIY forums and if they have any knowledge of heat energy at all they know that a lot of what a homeowner is trying is not good.

Every one of these DIY forums will deal out advice on how to trouble shoot a circuit. It doesnít matter if the person doing the trouble shooting has any knowledge of the meter they are using or not the advice is posted for anyone to try.
Meters have ratings for the type of circuit and test being preformed. I have yet to read a post where this information is given to the one asking the question.

An inverse time circuit breaker can carry five times its rated current for up to 20 seconds. On a 15 amp breaker this would equate to over 10,000 watts of heat that would be allowed to pass through the body for 20 seconds. Do you understand what this kind of heat would do to the body? I truly hope that everyone asking for help understands the danger of working on a live electrical circuit.

Now if you want to play off the number of deaths and the number of DIY deaths it is okay with me but I just canít see how the families of someone that died would much care about the numbers. To them the only number that counts is one.

Cookie
12-05-2008, 07:06 AM
Now that you have me digging.

Where did the 1300 come from? It is almost 3x higher than any reference I can find without using Lexis / Nexis.

Steve

Just so you know, I can't find it either Steve.
I bet Mikey can find some stuff, he can find everything, how about it Mikey.

sjsmithjr
12-05-2008, 08:59 AM
Regarding safety, and the big picture: somehow, I can't imagine how, only 1300 people per year are electrocuted in the U.S.

I got it from this thread, but I'll be happy to look into the numbers for you if you like.

For what it's worth, Steve, I'm not trying to take a dig at you. I merely wished to confirm your qualifications and experience with respect to electrical safety.

Thatguy
12-05-2008, 09:06 AM
Now that you have me digging.

Where did the 1300 come from? It is almost 3x higher than any reference I can find without using Lexis / Nexis.

Steve
Re: 1300, I thought CPSC said so.

Cookie
12-05-2008, 09:38 AM
I think 1300 is too low. I can't find those numbers anywhere. Given the big picture it seems really off.
I know one electrician alone who fell into a vat of steel at a mill where my husband was working a long time ago, I remember him always talking about how dangerous the jobs were there and how he got angry because they would not take the precautions they should had. There were many instances. Work-related those numbers have got to be high. They were alone when and where he was working.

Everyone jumps on a DIY'er, well the bottom line is those people don't take short cuts, they check, they ask, they check, they ask, before they actually do the work. I think, if anyone reads the posts that is pretty obvious. I would imagine those numbers are lower.

You can quote this or any of this, I don't care, but, when people get overly confident they can get sloppy and careless. Someone who is learning is very careful quite the opposite.

Cookie
12-05-2008, 10:16 AM
I got it from this thread, but I'll be happy to look into the numbers for you if you like. While I'm looking, you can read this:

http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_case_************_home/


For what it's worth, Steve, I'm not trying to take a dig at you. I merely wished to confirm your qualifications and experience with respect to electrical safety.

The page you linked to, said, it can not be displayed, the only thing there is something by Joe Tedesco, ( his, What is wrong with this picture?) is this what you wanted to show us?

sjsmithjr
12-05-2008, 10:43 AM
My apologies; it would seem that the link triggers some auto-editing.

Go to:

http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_case_************_home/

replace the asterisks "do it yourself", no spaces. If all else fails google "The Case of the Do-it-Yourself Home Electrocution".

In my opinion, it is a must read for aspiring DIY electricians. It is a story about a man who, by taking a home improvement project into his own hands, set the stage for his pregnant wifeís death.

A tragic and completely avoidable death.

Cookie
12-05-2008, 11:03 AM
Can't find that article.
But, did find this one:

The Case of the Houseboat Electrocution

Oct 1, 2008 12:00 PM, By Andrew Paris, P.E., Anderson Engineering
Damaged neutral on faulty light fixture and reverse polarity spell disaster for families’ day of water fun at the lake.

Now that one wasn't from a DIYer. And, totally unavoidable as well, if not more so.

sjsmithjr
12-05-2008, 12:02 PM
I shall try one last time to link to the article.

http://www.americanbusinessmedia.com/images/abm/pdfs/events/neal_library/EC&M--Class%20B%20Cat%204--3.pdf

Well, that only get's you to the first page. Here's the ending:

"The investigation showed that the electrocution was most likely an accident, and the husband was spared from criminal prosecution. However, he wasn't completely relieved of responsibility. Not only did he fail to secure a permit for the work in his shower or have it inspected, thereby violating state and local laws, he had no formal training in electrical system construction. Although he wasn't directly involved with the electrocution, his disregard for electrical safety and proper installation rules no doubt played an indirect role in his wife's death."

I shall now bid you adieu with a wish that each and everyone of you stays safe.

jwelectric
12-05-2008, 12:58 PM
Etiology
Approximately 20% of all electrical injuries occur in children, with a bimodal peak incidence highest in toddlers and adolescents. Most electrical injuries that occur in children are at home, with extension cords (60-70%) and wall outlets (10-15%) being by far the most common sources in this age group. Electrical burns account for 2-3% of all burns in children that require emergency room care.
In adults, most electrical injuries happen at the workplace and constitute the fourth leading cause of work-related traumatic death. One third of all electrical traumas and most high-voltage injuries are job related. More than 50% of these occupational electrocutions result from power line contact (5-6% of all work-related deaths), and 25% result from using electrical tools or machines. The annual occupational death rate from electricity is 1 death per 100,000 workers, with a male-to-female ratio of 9:1.
This can be seen by clicking here (http://www.emedicine.com/med/TOPIC2810.HTM)


Everyone jumps on a DIY'er, well the bottom line is those people don't take short cuts, they check, they ask, they check, they ask, before they actually do the work. I think, if anyone reads the posts that is pretty obvious. I would imagine those numbers are lower. Cookie, I donít think that anyone is jumping on someone that is trying to do something their self but instead is just trying to point out that some things a person should not even attempt to try without some proper training. One of these is testing a live circuit.
If you can imagine 18 100 watt bulbs in one tight area that is how much heat energy a 15 amp circuit is designed to hold on a continuous load.
If you can imagine a hundred 100 watt light bulbs in one area that is how much heat energy that a 15 amp circuit will hold for a few seconds,
It is not the person doing something that the knowledgeable fears but instead the danger involved. It is not how careful the DIYer is but the knowledge the DIyer lacks.


You can quote this or any of this, I don't care, but, when people get overly confident they can get sloppy and careless. Someone who is learning is very careful quite the opposite. I totally agree that the trained person does get overly confident and that is why so many ends up hurt daily. I also agree that the trained doing the dangerous work is what adds confidence into those that have no knowledge as they want to do as they see others do.
I have been in this field for over 40 years and in the classroom for about 10 of those years and I can tell you that it is not how careful the DIYer is but the knowledge he/she doesnít have that causes them to be hurt or hurting someone else.
We can post all the numbers of how many are hurt and killed till the cows come home but I wonít give that person without some type of formal training the knowledge they need to attempt some of the things I see here on this site from time to time.

Another aspect of this danger that has not been discussed yet is the number of electrical deaths that are attributed to something else. A person gets a shock today and dies two to three days from now. The death is ruled heart failure. In reality the heat made the blood clot and it took that long to hit the heart. Someone in a pool or bath tub that died by drowning. The electrical shock caused them to take a deep breath which filled the lungs with water.
Both of these have been documented by the Medical Association of America.
I just donít know how to convince some of you the danger involved in electricity as long as blinders keep you looking in one direction.

As many can attest I have done a lot to help many on these sites and have always been first to say, you should hire a professional when I thought they were in over their heads.
I quote code a lot simply due to the fact that the NEC is a minimum safety code. To do anything less than what the code call for is to do something unsafe. The code itself makes this statement in the Introduction.
90.1 Purpose.
(A) Practical Safeguarding. The purpose of this Code is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity.

There is a big difference in helping someone do something when you can be present to watch over their work and when you are answering questions over the internet.

Thatguy
12-05-2008, 01:00 PM
Can't find that article.
But, did find this one:

The Case of the Houseboat Electrocution

Oct 1, 2008 12:00 PM, By Andrew Paris, P.E., Anderson Engineering
Damaged neutral on faulty light fixture and reverse polarity spell disaster for families’ day of water fun at the lake.

Now that one wasn't from a DIYer. And, totally unavoidable as well, if not more so.
I saw that one in EC & M. One guy was prevented from drowning because he couldn't release his grip on a live conductor.

http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_case_************_home/
in this shower incident link I still don't see why the GFI didn't immediately trip.
What an awful way to die.

sjsmithjr
12-05-2008, 02:49 PM
http://ecmweb.com/mag/electric_case_************_home/in this shower incident link I still don't see why the GFI didn't immediately trip. What an awful way to die.

Since you asked - it had to do the construction of the drop lamp and condition of the drop lamp, which should not have been used in that location. It's in the full article if you get a chance to read it. Had it not been for the suspicious nature of her death, it might well have been attributed to other causes, as noted by JW.

Guys - it's been nice talking to you, but this thread has reminded of too many things I wished that I hadn't seen or had to deal with. Some related to electrical work, most having to do with inexperience and lack of training.

frenchie
12-05-2008, 04:29 PM
in this shower incident link I still don't see why the GFI didn't immediately trip.

Joe T once posted a video, where he dropped a hair drier into a sink full of water, and the GFI didn't trip. I'll see if I can dig up the link...

Basically, there wasn't a ground path. To the GFI, everything's fine if the short isn't grounded, they work by detecting any difference in outgoing & returning current... no leakage of current, no trip.

What he explained to me, about that video, was that if he stuck his hand in the water, THEN the gfi'd trip.

...

frenchie
12-05-2008, 04:39 PM
No dice. He's somehow removed his entire PROFILE from JLC, along with every/any post he ever made... weird.

I found links to it at Mike Holt's but it looks like Joe took the video down from all the places he'd had it up.

Cookie
12-05-2008, 04:58 PM
Don't know if this helps Thatguy, but I found a reference to it.
http://www.nachi.org/forum/f19/should-happen-hair-dryer-falls-into-sink-4903/

Thatguy
12-05-2008, 05:19 PM
Don't know if this helps Thatguy, but I found a reference to it.
http://www.nachi.org/forum/f19/should-happen-hair-dryer-falls-into-sink-4903/
Yeah, I have to sleep on this one, with the shower and a path to ground. It still doesn't quite sit right with me, even if the worklamp had no insulation.

Not to beat a dead, or semi-comatose horse, but I have some problems with this link
http://www.emedicine.com/med/TOPIC2810.HTM

Their classification as to high voltage may be generally accepted but there is a breakpoint at 600v above which the skin is punctured so you lose the benefit of skin resistance.
The power transformers of vacuum tube TV sets could easily put out more than 600v, believe me.

They also imply that people would have 15A flowing through their bodies from household voltages.
Electric chairs only pass 4A to 8A, and this is at 2400v. The body temp. is raised by 20įF or so, and this temp. rise by itself doesn't do anyone any good.

I don't know where they get this 240A max current value.

As to cataracts, I thought cancer was the only disease that can wait years to show up. I guess the current causes cell damage on a molecular level.

jwelectric
12-05-2008, 05:36 PM
In order for a GFCI to trip there has to be a difference in the current between the ungrounded (hot) and the grounded (neutral) conductors.

Take a GFCI receptacle out and reach across the device with your finger and thumb touching the black and white wire and the device will not trip. It is not the job of the device to stop current flow if the load is between the hot and neutral but to open if the current between the two is not exactly the same.

Anyone who thinks that a GFCI will keep someone from being electrocuted just donít understand how one works and helps substantiate the reason for someone to call a professional instead of trying to do something electrical their self no matter how simple that job might seem.

Cookie
12-05-2008, 06:00 PM
Years ago I was working with my dad on the old Tube tv's and they have very high voltage. They have capacitors that discharge, I got shocked a few times, I was about 9 then. Electrical current can change the cell on the molecular level because it is a known fact that people working with high voltage/lines, have a greater rate of cancer. Mostly, the blood cancers. Where it can cause cancer I believe as well as a scientist in Erie, Pa, it can cure cancer. Here is a small something about him. It is very exciting. There is a series of 3 on You Tube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIq4xcq2Ojo

John Kanzius Machine / Cancer Cure / Radio Waves

jwelectric
12-05-2008, 06:05 PM
Electric chairs only pass 4A to 8A, and this is at 2400v. The body temp. is raised by 20įF or so, and this temp. rise by itself doesn't do anyone any good.

This is what I found about the heat in the body from the chair,

Electrocution
Seeking a more humane method of execution than hanging, New York built the first electric chair in 1888 and executed William Kemmler in 1890. Soon, other states adopted this execution method. Today, electrocution is not used as the sole method of execution in any state. Electrocution was the sole method in Nebraska until the State Supreme Court ruled the method unconstitutional in February 2008. For execution by the electric chair, the person is usually shaved and strapped to a chair with belts that cross his chest, groin, legs, and arms. A metal skullcap-shaped electrode is attached to the scalp and forehead over a sponge moistened with saline. The sponge must not be too wet or the saline short-circuits the electric current, and not too dry, as it would then have a very high resistance. An additional electrode is moistened with conductive jelly (Electro-Creme) and attached to a portion of the prisoner's leg that has been shaved to reduce resistance to electricity. The prisoner is then blindfolded. (Hillman, 1992 and Weisberg, 1991) After the execution team has withdrawn to the observation room, the warden signals the executioner, who pulls a handle to connect the power supply. A jolt of between 500 and 2000 volts, which lasts for about 30 seconds, is given. The current surges and is then turned off, at which time the body is seen to relax. The doctors wait a few seconds for the body to cool down and then check to see if the inmate's heart is still beating. If it is, another jolt is applied. This process continues until the prisoner is dead. The prisoner's hands often grip the chair and there may be violent movement of the limbs which can result in dislocation or fractures. The tissues swell. Defecation occurs. Steam or smoke rises and there is a smell of burning. (Hillman, 1992 and Weisberg, 1991) U.S. Supreme Court Justice William Brennan once offered the following description of an execution by electric chair:
...the prisoner's eyeballs sometimes pop out and rest on [his] cheeks. The prisoner often defecates, urinates, and vomits blood and drool. The body turns bright red as its temperature rises, and the prisoner's flesh swells and his skin stretches to the point of breaking. Sometimes the prisoner catches fire....Witnesses hear a loud and sustained sound like bacon frying, and the sickly sweet smell of burning flesh permeates the chamber. (Ecenbarger, 1994)

At postmortem, the body is hot enough to blister if touched, and the autopsy is delayed while the internal organs cool. There are third degree burns with blackening where the electrodes met the skin of the scalp and legs. According to Robert H. Kirschner, the deputy chief medical examiner of Cook County, "The brain appears cooked in most cases." (Weisberg, 1991)
see here ( http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/descriptions-execution-methods)

Cookie
12-05-2008, 06:21 PM
Here is Part one, if this doesn't work they can easily be found.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RPoNJ51dYg&feature=related

This is very promising and very exciting and he is a man without even a college degree or a background in it. He is a DIY'er in every sense of the word. He has cancer, and may just had found a cure and will save many people's lives, including mine because I live with cancer, and he did it with electrical/radio/energy waves! How remarkable.

tvl
12-05-2008, 06:42 PM
You stated:

I quote code a lot simply due to the fact that the NEC is a minimum safety code. To do anything less than what the code call for is to do something unsafe. The code itself makes this statement in the Introduction.

Referring to another thread I started, this is why I am sooooooo confused. I was thinking of making some additions to an outside sub-panel until I was told I was approaching the matter incorrectly AND the panel and breaker needed updating. I have since taken the advice of those here and decided not to make my original additions, but I have decided to correct the discrepancies that were called to my attention .............. this weekend as a matter of fact!

Now for my confusion: Since I decided NOT to make any additions and I now have no need of going inside the panel, I was informed I could leave the panel as is and not be concerned about the main breaker and missing bushing as this was installed at a time when the code was not as strict.

In your statement, you say "To do anything less than what the code call for is to do something unsafe". Can't you see my dilemma. Obviously, the code has changed since our home was built in 1977 AND if one looked closely, I and many others will most certainly have what is now considered a code violation. How can the NEC grandfather electrical wiring in an older home when it is considered "unsafe" ............. and according to you "the code itself makes this statement in the Introduction".

Are there other circuits in our home which are unsafe? Why aren't homeowners contacted with new code updates, such as an automotive recall? As I stated earlier, I am very confused ............... I need to make a change, I don't need to make a change, anything less than code is unsafe. How in the world does one make a proper and/or wise decision with this kind of obscurity.

Confused in SC!

Cookie
12-05-2008, 07:05 PM
Tvl,

I am not an electrician, but if I were you, since it is grandfathered in as long as it has met all the standards of that day, it is safe; but if you wanted to feel more comfortable, you could update it. I would probably update if you got the time and the money. Updating it to today's NEC's standards would make it safer.

A car has a VIN number and can send the owner information about a recall, it would be impossible to send a homeowner information because they would not know where the units/parts are at. You could probably find information about electrical item recalls on the net.

Good luck.

jwelectric
12-05-2008, 07:25 PM
You stated: Confused in SC!

The NEC is updated every three years and this process is done through a process that anyone can be involved with.

The cut off date was the first of last month for proposals for the 2011 code cycle. Sometime toward the end of next year these proposals will be sent to those that made one or anyone can see them by going to www.nfpa.org

From there the proposals will go through a comment stage where the proposal will be picked and probed until its final adoption into the code.

When a proposal is made there has to be something to substantiate the proposal, a reason for the change. The Code Making Panel will vote on the proposal and comment on their findings. Here is an example.

5-120 Log #1298 NEC-P05 Final Action: Accept
(250.32(A))
__________________________________________________ __________
Submitter: Joseph Whitt, JW Electric
Recommendation: Revise text to read:
250.32 Buildings or Structures Supplied by Feeder(s) or Branch Circuit(s).
(A) Grounding Electrode. Building(s) or structure(s) supplied by feeder(s) or branch circuit(s) shall have a grounding electrode or grounding electrode system installed in accordance with 250.50 Part III of 250 . The grounding electrode conductor(s) shall be connected in accordance with 250.32(B) or (C). Where there is no existing grounding electrode, the grounding electrode(s) required in 250.50 shall be installed.
Substantiation: As now worded, 250.32(A) only states that this grounding electrode is required to conform to the provisions of 250.50 and nowhere in
250.50 does it refer to 250.53(D) nor 250.56.
As an instructor of both electrical contractors and inspectors in the state of
North Carolina, the most asked questions on grounding are about 250.32(A).
The questions I am always asked are:
What are the requirements for the grounding electrode system at a building or structure fed by a feeder? If a water pipe that is in contact with the earth for more than ten feet and then it is connected to a nonmetallic pipe is used as the grounding electrode is it required to conform with 250.53(D)? If a ground pipe or rod is used as the electrode, is it required to conform to 250.56?
By adding that 250.32(A) must comply to Part III of 250 would be all encompassing and include the supplementary addition of another electrode outlined in 250.53(D)(2) and the resistance to ground of a rod, pipe, or plate found in 250.56. There would be conformity to the grounding electrode system between a feeder that supplies another building or structure and at a service.

Panel Meeting Action: Accept
Number Eligible to Vote: 15
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 15

Here I saw an issue with the method of installing a grounding electrode at the remote building and addressed it with a proposal. The Code Making Panel agreed with me that this was an issue and accepted my proposal which was adopted to the 2008 code.

Now does this mean that every installation, maybe millions, that were done and code compliant in the 2002 code cycle needs to be changed? Who would pick up the bill for all this work? No they complied with the code of that era and do not need to be addressed unless someone works on that installation at which time it must meet the current standards.
This type of discussion could go on for days or even weeks concerning such items as equipment grounding conductors, two wire receptacle verses three wire receptacles, GFCI devices and the list goes on and on and on.

The bottom line on your installation is this, it wouldnít pass an inspection today and in my opinion wouldnít have passed an inspection in 1977 but the fact is that it is there now. As long as you do nothing to it then it needs nothing done but the minute you start working on it then it must meet todayís standards.

If I buy a brand new car that car will have seat belts and air bags but if I buy me a 1949 Packard it will have neither but I can still buy insurance and tags and drive to and from work each and every day. Now in your mind which is safer the new car or the old car? Will either one of them do the same job? The same is true with the installation you have.

jwelectric
12-05-2008, 07:28 PM
Here is Part one, if this doesn't work they can easily be found.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RPoNJ51dYg&feature=related

This is very promising and very exciting and he is a man without even a college degree or a background in it. He is a DIY'er in every sense of the word. He has cancer, and may just had found a cure and will save many people's lives, including mine because I live with cancer, and he did it with electrical/radio/energy waves! How remarkable.

Would you say that he has a background in the field that he was working or do you think he got all his information from a do-it-yourself web site?

I was impressed with his work, good find.

Cookie
12-05-2008, 07:55 PM
Would you say that he has a background in the field that he was working or do you think he got all his information from a do-it-yourself web site?

I was impressed with his work, good find.



All I can say is that his "find" would not had been invented if he didn't believe in himself and trust in what he was doing. Because of this, many lives may be saved. This is remarkable.

sjsmithjr
12-06-2008, 04:23 AM
Would you say that he has a background in the field that he was working or do you think he got all his information from a do-it-yourself web site?

Kanzius is an autodidact. The people working on the nanoparticle technology at M.D. Anderson are not. Very promising technology on both ends. Clinical trial may start in three years.

The doctors at Anderson are the best; they treated my younger sister. If anyone can make it work, they will.

Cass
12-06-2008, 05:37 AM
Kanzius is an autodidact. The people working on the nanoparticle technology at M.D. Anderson are not. Very promising technology on both ends. Clinical trial may start in three years.

The doctors at Anderson are the best; they treated my younger sister. If anyone can make it work, they will.

Very fancy way of saying DIYr...while he is not perfecting it he did make the prototype as far as I know by doing a bit of DIYing and asking questions...

jwelectric
12-06-2008, 05:46 AM
Would you say that he has a background in the field that he was working or do you think he got all his information from a do-it-yourself web site?

I was impressed with his work, good find.All I can say is that his "find" would not had been invented if he didn't believe in himself and trust in what he was doing. Because of this, many lives may be saved. This is remarkable.

The question was, ďWould you say that he has a background in the field that he was working?Ē

He said that he was a radio tech and he was working on radio frequencies

I donít think that this can be used to compare someone that has no knowledge in the electrical field asking questions on a web site to make an electrical installation

Cass
12-06-2008, 06:08 AM
His background was building radios as a kid...

Cookie
12-06-2008, 09:04 AM
Here is a good site, his site, you can find info on trials there, they are being held in Erie.

http://www.kanziuscancerresearch.org/

SteveW
12-06-2008, 09:45 AM
Another point of view:

http://www.healthnewsreview.org/review/review.php?rid=1236

Cookie
12-06-2008, 09:52 AM
Here you go: How nice he went to the same school as my husband. This man is a good man who will save many lives.

http://llnw.static.cbslocal.com/Themes/CBS/_resources/img/ico010x010clock.gif Nov 5, 2008 6:49 pm US/Eastern
Doctors Excited Over Man's Cancer-Fighting Machine

(KDKA) A man who grew up in Washington County has come up with a treatment idea that has the nation's top doctors excited.

He was featured on 60 Minutes and since then there has been even more promising news about his cancer fighting machine.

John Kanzius went to Trinity High School, lived in Carrick for a while and has a background in broadcasting. Now, he lives in Erie, where he has a lab, and that's where he show KDKA's David Highfield the machine that could revolutionize how cancer is treated.

It began for Kanzius six years ago after he was diagnosed with leukemia and was at a hospital in Texas.

"There were hundreds of kids taking chemotherapy, and their hair loss, I thought, 'God, I didn't know this existed.' This was like a torture camp that's hidden from the rest of the world," said Kanzius. "I said to my wife there has to be a better way to treat cancer."

That better way came to him one sleepless night and he immediately went to work.

"Three o'clock in the morning, I started ripping stuff apart in my wife's cupboard," he told KDKA.

He built an early version of the machine, which sends radio waves between the boxes. It can make a florescent tube light up.

"The interesting thing is, you can put your hand in here and you don't feel anything," said Kanzius.

But the waves definitely affect tiny pieces of metal called nano-particles and causes them to quickly heat up. In just seven seconds, they are hot enough to destroy cancer without damaging nearby tissue.

For some perspective, imagine a dime is a nano-particle. That means the cancer cell would be the size of Heinz Field. It would take twenty of those nano-particles to kill the cancer cell. The physics changes as you widen the space.

Dr. David Geller, co-director of the University of Pittsburgh's Liver Cancer Center, is now testing the treatment on rats with nano-particles made of gold.

"I'm enthusiastic. I think that we have to take it one cancer at a time, one small step forward at a time," said Dr. Geller. "There are no shortcuts to this type of work."

Kanzius says that they have now tackled one big obstacle in finding a way to target not just tumors but also the rogue cancer cells that spread the disease to other parts of the body. They do it by attaching antibodies to the nano-particles, causing them to hunt down the cancer.

Also, Kanzius says he has built a machine to treat the entire body.

"I think this treatment is only going take about 15, 20 seconds max," said Kanzius.

He also says unlike chemotherapy or radiation, the only side effect from the treatment is a cure. However, for now it's only being tested on animals.

Researchers say they are probably about two or three years away from clinical trial.

"I don't know if I'll be around for it to make a difference, but it was never about me, it was always about others," said Kanzuis.

sjsmithjr
12-06-2008, 04:19 PM
His background was building radios as a kid...

According to his own bio:

"John is the CEO and Manager of Therm Med, LLC, and has spent his entire career in broadcast engineering, management and ownership. John began his career working in the high power AM/FM/Television Engineering Department of Radio Corporation of America (RCA) in Meadowlands, Pennsylvania. While working for RCA in the early 1960ís, John gained notoriety in the engineering community by solving with a fifty-cent part an engineering phenomenon regarding high powered color television transmission distortion which had vexed a team of electrical engineers, Ph.Dís and professors for several years."

and...

"Johnís educational background includes study of electronics and electrical engineering at the Allegheny Technical Institute and the University of Pittsburgh."

Formal study, a lifelong in broadcast career, and notoriety in the engineering community is a long way from a building radios as a kid. I wish him and the researchers at M. D. Anderson the greatest of success in their endeavors.

Cookie
12-06-2008, 04:45 PM
ha ha ha, OH, yes he is. A complete DIY'ER.
You don't know all the facts, he also states he has NO degree, never had one. Not to this day. I guess it isn't fair to you because you are only relying on a quick bio that they placed there it makes it sound like he got degrees. They assume people will read everything.

He started off as a child building radios from scratch. Then, he built ham radios, 73 to you John, lol.

From there he taught himself further electronics. In the 60's while he built up a radio station he hit upon an invention with the 50 cent piece astonishing EE's, and the likes for YEARS.

He worked in broadcasting, at his own station and then, that of others. He never had any formal education past that of high school, unless, you read on about him it is very misleading, and I guess, no fault of your own to accept that he had degrees, when he did not.

He is not an electrician, he is not an EE, he is not a PH'D, he is just a DIY'er and there is nothing insulting in being just that.

Cookie
12-06-2008, 04:54 PM
The first 150 words of the full text (http://jnci.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/100/14/985) of this article appear below.
Great advances rarely come from massive, federally funded directives. So said the late Francis Moore, M.D., surgeon in chief at Brigham and Women's Hospital in Boston and Harvard Medical School professor, reflecting on whether the government's war on cancer might ever yield a cure. Rather, he opined, they tend to come from creative people whom no one has heard of before, working in obscurity. Enter John Kanzius, a retired TV engineer and ham radio operator without a college education, whose use of radio waves for treating cancer has brought him to the attention of the cancer world. Featured on the program 60 Minutes last April, Kanzius is now coordinating the research of scientists at the University of Texas M. D. Anderson Cancer Center in Houston and the University of Pittsburgh Medical Centerófrom his home in Erie, Pa.

Cookie
12-06-2008, 05:19 PM
So, is a person posts a thread on this electrical DIY forum, and wants electrical advice, just remember he might be smarter than he sounds, might be smarter than you think or judge him by. He might be someday saving your butt. Give him a fair shake. Remember: this is a DIY'er Forum. No one is saying to go against anything with safety, but technical advice is also, appreciated to them, I am sure.

Thatguy
12-08-2008, 02:21 PM
might be smarter than he sounds, might be smarter than you think or judge him by.

These two ladies ran into that a lot. . .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers-Briggs_Type_Indicator