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jar546
11-28-2008, 03:25 PM
The last 3 code inspections that I did for DIY projects all failed. These are the ones that at least got a permit.

Many times you can get something to work but it does not mean that it is right or safe.

Even the pros get it wrong. Please watch both.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-5Erq7Co0E&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQiMr5Xm2sU&feature=related

Billy_Bob
11-28-2008, 04:54 PM
Thanks for posting that. Quite a bit of "handiwork" there.

I've seen that grounding problem before. An entire new addition to a small office building with grounded wiring to everything but they never connected the grounds to the main panel!

I always say behind every electrical code is a tragic death or fire.

They should have mentioned GFCI's on the news report...

drick
11-28-2008, 06:46 PM
This is an unfortunate preventable tragedy. However, sadly, it illustrates why some people prefer DIY. Even a homeowner with average skill could have done a more competent job than the illegal, shoddy workmanship performed by the licensed electrical contractor.

-rick

jar546
11-28-2008, 07:09 PM
This is an unfortunate preventable tragedy. However, sadly, it illustrates why some people prefer DIY. Even a homeowner with average skill could have done a more competent job than the illegal, shoddy workmanship performed by the licensed electrical contractor.

-rick


The problem here was at multi-levels.

1) The idiot employee who performed the improper job
2) The employer for not checking the work of the employee
3) The employer for not pulling an electrical permit
4) The building inspector who did not bump a note to the electrical department to make them come out and inspect the electrical work being performed.

If anything, this should teach us all that electricity is dangerous and even the professionals make mistakes, some of them deadly. It is even more dangerous when DIY are involved.

If I fail a job performed by a licensed electrician I am usually nitpicking as I should be.

When I fail a DIY job, there are far more dangerous defects that are found.

This is the simple truth.

seaneys
11-28-2008, 11:45 PM
The last 3 code inspections that I did for DIY projects all failed. These are the ones that at least got a permit.

Many times you can get something to work but it does not mean that it is right or safe.

Even the pros get it wrong. Please watch both.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-5Erq7Co0E&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQiMr5Xm2sU&feature=related

That is just plain stupid and lazy. I really feel sorry for the guy who was killed.

Steve

Cass
11-29-2008, 04:57 AM
The problem here was at multi-levels.

1) The idiot employee who performed the improper job
2) The employer for not checking the work of the employee
3) The employer for not pulling an electrical permit
4) The building inspector who did not bump a note to the electrical department to make them come out and inspect the electrical work being performed.

If anything, this should teach us all that electricity is dangerous and even the professionals make mistakes, some of them deadly. It is even more dangerous when DIY are involved.

If I fail a job performed by a licensed electrician I am usually nitpicking as I should be.

When I fail a DIY job, there are far more dangerous defects that are found.

This is the simple truth.

If you inspected and failed that job you wouldn't have been nitpicking...and it wasn't a DIY job. The boy died...you can't get more dangerous than that.

The boy died because of negligence pure and simple...while there were a few people who should / could have caught something that would have prevented it the majority of fault lies with the...

Professionally Trained & Licensed Electrical Contractor...this may include his employees.

It might have been a mistake that the ground was never hooked up before the job was finished...but it wasn't a "mistake" that a GFCI wasn't used and it wasn't a "mistake" that the wrong # of conductors were used and it wasn't a "mistake" that a permit wasn't pulled and the whole job never being tested is just pure neglence...Not installing the GFCI, 4 conductor wire, and not pulling the permit were $$$ saving things that were done purposely...not by "mistake". This is my NSHO.

I wonder if the contractor will have his license pulled permanently or do any jail time.

jar546
11-29-2008, 06:54 AM
The importance of this post is to realize that electricity is not a hobby and that we all make mistakes. It is also important to realize just how critical it is to perform electrical work to a safe, code compliant level.

Yes, professionals at more than one level made a mistake that costs someone's life.

Most of the time professionals do work, they pull permits and get the work inspected. If they are true professionals then they have the proper training and experience to perform the work. Like all humans, they too make mistakes.

Most homeowners never pull permits and rarely get their work inspected. Most homeowners rely on information from people at big box stores or printed DIY books, both of which are full of bad information. Most DIY jobs that I do inspect fail inspection for major violations. Most pro electrician jobs pass with no problems and those that fail, fail for smaller nitpicky violations. Again we are all human.

I have inspection thousands of homes and this is a sad fact, the DIY electrician is very dangerous.

jar546
11-29-2008, 07:02 AM
Professional Work:
http://remasinspections.com/images/ProPanel.JPG


DIY Work:
http://www.remasinspections.com/images/MainPanelMess.jpg

Cookie
11-29-2008, 07:10 AM
The importance of this post is to realize that Again we are all human.

I have inspection thousands of homes and this is a sad fact, the DIY electrician is very dangerous.

I think that is one of the reasons why, Terry created this forum, so, DIY'ers can learn how-to-do-it safely. And have discussions. That kind of is the purpose of this all, so DIY'ers can learn from the pro's more than just to change out a light bulb.

Not all DIY'ers are dumb and not all pro's are the best or the brightest light bulb in the box either. Just the way it is.
This is DIY'er forum with different interests people can discuss on.
Electrical is one of them.

Cass
11-29-2008, 07:28 AM
The importance of this post is to realize that electricity is not a hobby and that we all make mistakes. It is also important to realize just how critical it is to perform electrical work to a safe, code compliant level.

Yes, professionals at more than one level made a mistake that costs someone's life.

Most of the time professionals do work, they pull permits and get the work inspected. If they are true professionals then they have the proper training and experience to perform the work. Like all humans, they too make mistakes.

Most homeowners never pull permits and rarely get their work inspected. Most homeowners rely on information from people at big box stores or printed DIY books, both of which are full of bad information. Most DIY jobs that I do inspect fail inspection for major violations. Most pro electrician jobs pass with no problems and those that fail, fail for smaller nitpicky violations. Again we are all human.

I have inspection thousands of homes and this is a sad fact, the DIY electrician is very dangerous.

When someone dies because of something a professional does it is rarely a mistake...it most times will be something they did deliberately...you see it is very difficult for a professional to make a mistake...that is why he is a professional...

I dislike the word "mistake" because most times when it is used...it is not...it is mistakenly used to describe things that are deliberate.

Cookie
11-29-2008, 07:34 AM
The importance of this post is to realize that Most DIY jobs that I do inspect fail inspection for major violations. Most pro electrician jobs pass with no problems and those that fail, fail for smaller nitpicky violations. Again we are all human.

.

In my books when someone is doing their job to the best of their ability, if they are inspecting accordingly, then their is no nitpicking...

Nitpicking to me, sounds personal. Business is not personal, business is business.

Cookie
11-29-2008, 07:53 AM
When someone dies because of something a professional does it is rarely a mistake...it most times will be something they did deliberately...you see it is very difficult for a professional to make a mistake...that is why he is a professional...

I dislike the word "mistake" because most times when it is used...it is not...it is mistakenly used to describe things that are deliberate.

It then becomes negligence. That is why their are lawyers.

jar546
11-29-2008, 08:06 AM
Here is a good example.

If you look at the photo of the Professional job that looks great there are no safety hazards but there are still 3 code violations that caused the job to fail. They are small and not really safety related but still code violations.

Can any of you DIYrs see the 3 code violations in the professional photo?

Cookie
11-29-2008, 08:10 AM
Is a DIY'er supposed to see it on a Professional job?

Speedy Petey
11-29-2008, 08:12 AM
I was going to say there are several violations in that "professional" install but I didn't want to get flamed for being a jerk.
Very impressive LOOKING but still not 100% compliant.

If I do say so, my work is very nice looking. I do get compliments all the time. Even my rough-ins, but my panels DO NOT look as anal as that. Pretty close to as neat, but not so "perfect" looking.

I HATE bringing that many wires in the side KO's.

Speedy Petey
11-29-2008, 08:13 AM
Is a DIY'er supposed to see it on a Professional job?These violations are quite obvious.

Cookie
11-29-2008, 08:16 AM
With your level of expertise I would hope so. If not, why do you hold a license?
But he said, a DIY'er...
The forum here is that to help, advise, discuss for the DIY'er.

I would point out what is wrong with the picture so the DIY'er can learn and things can be discussed. Is that not the point of it all?

jwelectric
11-29-2008, 08:22 AM
I think that is one of the reasons why, Terry created this forum, so, DIY'ers can learn how-to-do-it safely. And have discussions. That kind of is the purpose of this all, so DIY'ers can learn from the pro's more than just to change out a light bulb.

Not all DIY'ers are dumb and not all pro's are the best or the brightest light bulb in the box either. Just the way it is.
This is DIY'er forum with different interests people can discuss on.
Electrical is one of them.

Herein lays a major problem in the electrical trade. Most of these Do-It-Yourself web sites are moderated by people that have little or no knowledge of the aspects of electrical theory their self and will allow someone with even less knowledge give advice to someone about an electrical circuit.

I have no problem with helping someone do something that they have the capabilities of doing but every once in a while someone comes along that wants to argue with the sound advice they are receiving which leads into something going tragically wrong. This type person I have a problem with giving advice to.

Then we have those who read something without doing any research and think that just because someone else half heartily agrees with their thoughts that they must be correct. We see this daily here on this site. How many times have you seen, “well that is what my electrician said?” Maybe their electrician is a first year man or even a maintenance man at the local factory without any knowledge of what they are talking about in the first place.

I have been teaching electrical classes at the local community college for many years now and can safely say that more than half of the students I see are taking the class so they can learn how to do work around their own house or that of a friend. Most will call me a few weeks after finishing school and ask questions about some project they are doing.
A few will go on into the electrical field and pursue a career which takes years to learn.

Then we have the Do-It-Yourselfer that thinks as long as it works it must be alright. This is where things go array. Not picking on any one individual on this forum but just in the past day I have read where a smaller breaker was used on a circuit just to make the old wiring safer. Any one with knowledge knows this does not make it safer. The voltage applied does not change with a smaller overcurrent device.

Yes we do have license holders that cut corners to make a dime. This is bad and needs to be addressed with a heavier hand than what it is today. But when we have someone that has little or no knowledge in the electrical field that starts cutting corners then we have death on a stick.

I admire Steve and what he is trying to do but he needs to get a little better grip on some of what is taking place in his forum. Leaving all the liability on the table and only addressing the burden of responsibility for the safety of others the loan of a discussion forum is a heavy burden. If the story of Isaac was due to advice given on this forum it would be a terrible burden for him to carry.

This forum as well as all other forums should have safety as the first rule. This is why there are so many forums out there that will only allow someone who is in the profession to post. There they can debate the safety aspects of different installations without giving advice to someone who might hurt their self or others. When someone post remarks that display a total disregard to safety that person should be put on notice and if they continue then they should be banned.

Remember that it is always safety first, safety last and safety always. There is always numerous ways to make an electrical installation but only one way to make it safe for everyone involved. The code making process is an on going process with nothing but personal safety at its heart. To just disregard these code rules thinking that it works is nothing less than playing Russian roulette. One day it is going to go wrong and when it does it could be a disaster.

Speedy Petey
11-29-2008, 08:23 AM
With your level of expertise I would hope so. If not, why do you hold a license?
I was NOT talking about me. I mean they should be obvious to ANY diy'er doing electrical work.

Cookie
11-29-2008, 08:29 AM
[quote=jwelectric;169110]

I have no problem with helping someone do something that they have the capabilities of doing but every once in a while someone comes along that wants to argue with the sound advice they are receiving which leads into something going tragically wrong. This type person I have a problem with giving advice to.


quote]

My advice to you would be not to give advice. If it makes you uncomfortable then, you should not do it.

Cookie
11-29-2008, 08:30 AM
I was NOT talking about me. I mean they should be obvious to ANY diy'er doing electrical work.

How can that be?

Speedy Petey
11-29-2008, 08:38 AM
How can that be?
How can that NOT be?????

What do you think folks should do. Say "I need to do an electrical project in my house. I think I'll go online and ask how to do the whole thing."

The code book is over 700 pages long. WHY do you think that is?

I am of the FIRM belief that folks should have a good clue about what they are doing BEFORE the attempt it. And coming to an internet message board and asking for 100% of the information is NOT the answer!!!
This is why I rarely help posts like "I want to replace my service panel. How do I do that?"

Cookie
11-29-2008, 08:49 AM
Now Speedy Petey,

If someone asks, " I am replacing my panel and has some questions, because they are already doing it, then, I guess they have enough of expertise to do it, eh? If someone asks, " how do I bond the panel, I guess they know enough, eh. If someone starts off, " I WANT TO REPLACE MY ENTIRE PANEL BOX, GIVE ME STEP BY STEP DIRECTIONS, TELL ME NOW HOW TO DO IT!" , then you could give the standard forum answer of, " call an electrician."

I am going now to change my light bulb.:D and, I don't need an electrician.

jwelectric
11-29-2008, 08:52 AM
I have no problem with helping someone do something that they have the capabilities of doing but every once in a while someone comes along that wants to argue with the sound advice they are receiving which leads into something going tragically wrong. This type person I have a problem with giving advice to.

My advice to you would be not to give advice. If it makes you uncomfortable then, you should not do it.

Didn't say I was uncomfortable giving advide just said that something needs to be done about those who keep giving bad advice.

If it were not for people like me giving advice pray tell me who would be handing out this advice.

Would it be those who have no knowledge at all?
Would it be those who have a total disregard for safety?
Would this site be a site of the blind leading the blind?

Okay if you would like I can stop giving advice and only make comments.

Dunbar Plumbing
11-29-2008, 08:57 AM
I did work on a house that literally had open wire nutted connections everywhere, from the homeowner who added and spliced a ton of lights without boxing them properly.


You literally had to walk through the basement carefully to make sure you didn't hit them, for fear of causing them to break loose.


I hope the city, the electricians all got their arse sued to hell and back and lost their jobs respectively.


Who in the **** wires a entire garage off an outside outlet?

Even as a plumber I know that due to the load on those circuits that a new wire pulled to the panel, a heavy one is required if you have at least 6-10 circuits.


And from a novice I am, I've wired 3 way switches up and it's mandatory 14-3. Never knew that ground could be used in such a way.

It's a shame but in this case it takes dead kids to get people to wake up to reality.

I say the building inspector has a heavy hand in this, more than the electrician because this guy is trained to make sure the electric is inspected.


But then again, no electrician with half a ****ing brain knows to check continuity of a ground before ASSUMING there's a ground to follow. Idiots!


Fast buck antics is all this is. $40 would of saved a life, but it took a life to find that out.

Cookie
11-29-2008, 09:05 AM
Herein lays a major problem in the electrical trade. Most of these Do-It-Yourself web sites are moderated by people that have little or no knowledge of the aspects of electrical theory their self and will allow someone with even less knowledge give advice to someone about an electrical circuit.

I have no problem with helping someone do something that they have the capabilities of doing but every once in a while someone comes along that wants to argue with the sound advice they are receiving which leads into something going tragically wrong. This type person I have a problem with giving advice to.
.


You sound uncomfortable to me by the way you write, you give an air of not wanting to. If you don't want to give advice that is fine, there are others who will, and will correct others bad advice. People who are knowledgeable are needed here to help DIY'ers. If people choose to do that is great, if not that is great, too.

I am sure Terry would appreciate it.

tvl
11-29-2008, 09:44 AM
Here is a good example.

If you look at the photo of the Professional job that looks great there are no safety hazards but there are still 3 code violations that caused the job to fail. They are small and not really safety related but still code violations.

Can any of you DIYrs see the 3 code violations in the professional photo?

I would certainly like to know the answers so that I can learn ........... learning is a good thing.

However, I would like to try and find the violations myself:

1: The electrical panel is located entirely to close to the plumbing manifold. Water and electricity do not mix!
2: That appears to be an electrical transformer attached to the outlet box in the lower left-hand corner. The wire terminations are exposed.
3: The outlet in the lower left-hand corner should be a GFCI. Can't really tell by the photo.
4: The exposed wire end on the upper right-hand side of the electrical panel should be capped, even though it isn't connected being or being used. I am guessing on this one !!!!!!!

Well, how well did I do? At least I tried and I am willing to learn!

Speedy Petey
11-29-2008, 10:11 AM
RUGGED, I had the SAME thing happen with Advanta!!! F- that company! :mad: :mad: :mad:

I should have the same sig line as you just to warn folks.

jar546
11-29-2008, 11:22 AM
I would certainly like to know the answers so that I can learn ........... learning is a good thing.

However, I would like to try and find the violations myself:

1: The electrical panel is located entirely to close to the plumbing manifold. Water and electricity do not mix! NO
2: That appears to be an electrical transformer attached to the outlet box in the lower left-hand corner. The wire terminations are exposed. Wrong Again
3: The outlet in the lower left-hand corner should be a GFCI. Can't really tell by the photo. It is GFCI Protected, good thought
4: The exposed wire end on the upper right-hand side of the electrical panel should be capped, even though it isn't connected being or being used. I am guessing on this one !!!!!!! Again, Wrong

Well, how well did I do? At least I tried and I am willing to learn!


This is how you did. There are 3 violations and you did not find any of them. Your guesses are admirable and I thank you for trying.

This goes towards proving my point that there is much more to electrical work than reading a DIY book and watching an episode of This Old House.

If you screw up a plumbing job then your crapper overflows or you have a leak. Worse case is a venting problem that fills the house with a smelly yet deadly gas.

If you screw up electric you can kill yourselves or others with the smallest of mistakes.

tvl
11-29-2008, 01:03 PM
This is how you did. There are 3 violations and you did not find any of them. Your guesses are admirable and I thank you for trying.

This goes towards proving my point that there is much more to electrical work than reading a DIY book and watching an episode of This Old House.


Ok, I do appreciate you allowing me to take the test ............. although I flunked!

But, I believe you stated this job was originally done by a professional ............ and he flunked also. That does say something!

Now, don't get me wrong, although a professional is better equipped with tools and knowledge, he does make mistakes too. I still believe the DIYer can do minor electrical jobs as well as the professional, given the right guidance/information.

I believe the real problem with a lot of professional outfits today is they know all too well that time is money. Extra time spent on a job will certainly mean the difference in neatness, as shown in your earlier post, quality and less code violations. I guess some contractors may be simply testing the "system" to see what they can get by with because of the issue of "time is money".

I have looked at MANY homes being built in our community and the neatness of the wires being pulled to the electrical panel doesn't even come close to the photo you posted. Once again, time is money! This is why I believe a homeowner will do a better job given the chance ........... it is their home!

So, my purpose of stating these things isn't meant to offend the expert, but to only show that the homeowner is more than willing to take the extra time to do the jobe neatly and correctly ........... at least that is me!

The outside panel, that some were more than happy to point out the code violations, was installed by a local electrical contractor some years back. Trust me, I will fix the problem because this is our home and I want it done correctly and neatly .......... I simply need the information and I can do the rest.

I trust the "experts" will be willing to help the DIYer complete minor task such as adding a breaker or new circuit. Otherwise, what is the real purpose of this site? ........ telling an individual to contact an electrician isn't always the answer in an economy which is full of greed and where ample "time" on a job is not allowed.

I certainly do hope I haven't offended anyone here, as I felt the need to add a few comments on behalf of the DIYer.

And by the way, will someone let us know what the code violations are in the earlier photo???

jar546
11-29-2008, 01:10 PM
1) Not all cables are secured within 12" of the panel.
2) The bending radius of the NM cable is too small where it is 90'd.
3) There are 3 NM cables under 1 staple in several areas.

Speedy Petey
11-29-2008, 01:18 PM
1a) SEC not supported at all.
1aa) That SER cable does not look supported either.




3) There are 3 NM cables under 1 staple in several areas.This one I didn't even consider because there are staples that are rated for that.

jar546
11-29-2008, 01:32 PM
1a) SEC not supported at all.
1aa) That SER cable does not look supported either.


This one I didn't even consider because there are staples that are rated for that.


OK great, now show me your derating calculations.

seaneys
11-29-2008, 01:41 PM
Most of the time professionals do work, they pull permits and get the work inspected. If they are true professionals then they have the proper training and experience to perform the work. Like all humans, they too make mistakes.


I know of professional and diy work in my area that is done off-permit. The professional work tends to get lumped in with larger jobs or side work that does not require permits. I'm not sure if I agree with your generalization.

Wasn't this job done by a pro? Laziness, sloppiness, and carelessness are not reserved for DIY'ers. I wonder if the contractor decided to make an extra buck or cover up a mistake.

Steve

Cookie
11-29-2008, 01:42 PM
Tvl,

There is no way a DIY'er unless they have been a DIY'er for years would had known the code violations. So, don't feel bad. My husband was a sparky and an EE for years, he was just the nicest man I ever knew. He would put on demonstrations in our garage in the summertime showing the neighborhood kids things, to teach them things. It was pretty amazing for he was so low-keyed and humble; the parents would come along once a awhile or they would call and ask, what he was going to do that Saturday afternoon. He always took the time to help a neighbor, to show them what they needed and in many instances, he just did the work while they watched and learned. He loved his line of work and was the cream of the crop. He designed the electrical for NASA on the wind tunnels and I did the mathematics to it. Plus other things. We had alot of fun. No one said, electrical is safe, it is like anything else, if you are going to do something you need to learn it safely. That is where, this wonderful forum devoted to DIY'ers comes into play. I hope they will site the different code violations on other pictures for people as well, that is a great idea with the pictures and I think would enable others to learn. Some people are visual learners. Then, when someone is in over their head to the point of no return, then, suggest of course, the services of a sparky. A mind is a terrible thing to waste, and if someone is interested in learning, and if we have the capacity to teach, to share, it is the right thing to do.

seaneys
11-29-2008, 01:53 PM
If you screw up a plumbing job then your crapper overflows or you have a leak. Worse case is a venting problem that fills the house with a smelly yet deadly gas.

If you screw up electric you can kill yourselves or others with the smallest of mistakes.

Let's give the plumbers a break and please have a bit of respect for your parallel trade.

I live in an old house. The plumbing inspector was nice enough to notice that the boiler did not have a backflow prevention valve on the supply. I have stared at the pressure reducing valve hundreds of times.

The pressure reducing valve was installed by a licensed HVAC contractor in my area about 10 years ago. I paid him about $1000 to put in two large ball valves, replace the pump, and perform general maintenance on the system. He did not pull permits and I was not smart enough to ask.

The water from the boiler could easily have back fed into the cold water line of the house when they were working on the street a few years ago. I could have been a substantial health issue that could have sent my kids to the hospital.

I wonder if he saved a few bucks or a trip back to the shop. Perhaps it was just an honest mistake.

Steve

Speedy Petey
11-29-2008, 02:22 PM
OK great, now show me your derating calculations.
Well, if you mean the potential six CC conductors bundled, I don't even consider it until the number reaches ten. ;) :D

jar546
11-29-2008, 04:25 PM
Let's give the plumbers a break and please have a bit of respect for your parallel trade.

I live in an old house. The plumbing inspector was nice enough to notice that the boiler did not have a backflow prevention valve on the supply. I have stared at the pressure reducing valve hundreds of times.

The pressure reducing valve was installed by a licensed HVAC contractor in my area about 10 years ago. I paid him about $1000 to put in two large ball valves, replace the pump, and perform general maintenance on the system. He did not pull permits and I was not smart enough to ask.

The water from the boiler could easily have back fed into the cold water line of the house when they were working on the street a few years ago. I could have been a substantial health issue that could have sent my kids to the hospital.

I wonder if he saved a few bucks or a trip back to the shop. Perhaps it was just an honest mistake.

Steve


I am comparing electrical to plumbing, not electrical to the mechanical trades there is a different inspection, certification and code for that.

As a matter of fact residential construction inspections are broken down into several categories and certifications for inspectors.

Building Inspection (foundation, frame, egress, fire protection, roofing, etc)
Plumbing (water in, water out)
Electrical (nough said)
Mechanical (HVAC, boilers, furnaces, fuel piping, ductwork)
Energy (insulation)

wallyworld
11-29-2008, 04:33 PM
The code book is over 700 pages long. WHY do you think that is?


So manufacturers can sell more crap?

Billy_Bob
11-29-2008, 05:39 PM
Also... Isn't that doorbell wire (class 2) supposed to be 2 inches away from that wire?

(I hope this inspection is done and over with and you are not going to include these additional things for him to fix! :) )

frenchie
11-30-2008, 11:24 AM
The boy died because of negligence pure and simple...while there were a few people who should / could have caught something that would have prevented it the majority of fault lies with the...

I wonder if the contractor will have his license pulled permanently or do any jail time.

We've discussed this, elsewhere, about a year ago... the contractor got off with a fine.

...a factoid I find obscene.




edit - WTF is this banner ad doing in my post?

2nd edit - now it's gone? Huh?

3rd edit - NOW IT'S BACK? I'm so confused...

jwelectric
11-30-2008, 12:21 PM
I'm so confused...

You poor child

jimbo
11-30-2008, 12:45 PM
edit - WTF is this banner ad doing in my post?

...


Well, the cost of keeping a website on the air did not go down with the price of gas! The forum owner is utilizing his air time for a little support!

frenchie
11-30-2008, 12:54 PM
Yeah, it was just strange seeing it in my post. That was new.

I still don't understand why/how it appears & re-appears... very strange.

jadnashua
11-30-2008, 01:50 PM
I think it shows up in the first post of the page, which changes as more posts are added.

Speedy Petey
11-30-2008, 02:58 PM
I think it shows up in the first post of the page, which changes as more posts are added.Yup, I've noticed that too. Sucks because FF Ad Block Plus does not recognize it as an ad.

kingsotall
11-30-2008, 04:02 PM
I vote for having the ad appear in every one of Frenchie's post. :D

jamiedolan
11-30-2008, 09:08 PM
Professional Work:
http://remasinspections.com/images/ProPanel.JPG


DIY Work:
http://www.remasinspections.com/images/MainPanelMess.jpg


Is the NM standard colors? White NM 14 awg and the yellow 12 awg?

If so, the 20A outlet violates 210.21(B)1

Jamie

jwelectric
11-30-2008, 09:57 PM
Is the NM standard colors? White NM 14 awg and the yellow 12 awg?

If so, the 20A outlet violates 210.21(B)1

Jamie

That is real close but the section would be Table 210.21(B)(3)

frenchie
12-01-2008, 06:23 PM
I vote for having the ad appear in every one of Frenchie's post. :D

:D

Do I get a cut of the action?

apparentgenius
12-01-2008, 10:09 PM
Here is a good example.

If you look at the photo of the Professional job that looks great there are no safety hazards but there are still 3 code violations that caused the job to fail. They are small and not really safety related but still code violations.

Can any of you DIYrs see the 3 code violations in the professional photo?

Ok,

I'll open myself up for abuse. I'll go for it looks like the runs are stacked and stapled more than 2 deep, the bend radii look tight and the receptical box looks like it isn't very securely mounted.

glen

jamiedolan
12-02-2008, 05:30 AM
Ok,

I'll open myself up for abuse. I'll go for it looks like the runs are stacked and stapled more than 2 deep, the bend radii look tight and the receptical box looks like it isn't very securely mounted.

glen

Add not all cables are stapled within 12 inches of panel.

My addition; 20A outlet being fed with 14 gage NM, No one else seemed to mention this.

Jamie

jar546
12-02-2008, 04:20 PM
20A outlet being fed with 14 gage NM, No one else seemed to mention this

That is because it is on a 15A breaker so it is a moot point.

Chris75
12-02-2008, 07:46 PM
That is because it is on a 15A breaker so it is a moot point.

How do you figure? Its a code violation, Only a single receptacle on an individual branch circuit shall have an amprere rating not less than that of the branch circuit.

apparentgenius
12-02-2008, 09:45 PM
Ok,

I'll open myself up for abuse. I'll go for it looks like the runs are stacked and stapled more than 2 deep, the bend radii look tight and the receptical box looks like it isn't very securely mounted.

glen


Well, was I close?

jar546
12-03-2008, 05:00 AM
How do you figure? Its a code violation, Only a single receptacle on an individual branch circuit shall have an amprere rating not less than that of the branch circuit.


Exactly, NOT LESS.

jwelectric
12-03-2008, 08:27 AM
Well, was I close?

I will pay you some attention when it seems no one else will. Close but maybe not close enough.

apparentgenius
12-03-2008, 03:02 PM
I will pay you some attention when it seems no one else will. Close but maybe not close enough.

ok, then is the third one that the cables need to be stapled within 12" of the panel and not that the recepticle box is half on/half off of the strandboard?

Chris75
12-03-2008, 04:04 PM
Exactly, NOT LESS.

Ha-ha, too bad in the pic its a duplex and NOT a single receptacle, check out art 100 definitions, Also, check out Table 210.21(B)(3). A 20 amp DUPLEX receptacle is a code violation when supplied from a 15 amp circuit, Where a 20 amp SINGLE receptacle can be supplied from a 15 amp individual branch circuit.

jar546
12-03-2008, 04:17 PM
Ha-ha, too bad in the pic its a duplex and NOT a single receptacle, check out art 100 definitions, Also, check out Table 210.21(B)(3). A 20 amp DUPLEX receptacle is a code violation when supplied from a 15 amp circuit, Where a 20 amp SINGLE receptacle can be supplied from a 15 amp individual branch circuit.

Chris, that table only applies when branch circuit supplies 2 or more receptacles or outlets.

If you looked inside this panel, like I did, you would see that this receptacle was on a dedicated circuit and supplied no other receptacles.

Keep reading, it is a good learning experience for both of us.

Chris75
12-03-2008, 04:24 PM
Chris, that table only applies when branch circuit supplies 2 or more receptacles or outlets.

If you looked inside this panel, like I did, you would see that this receptacle was on a dedicated circuit and supplied no other receptacles.

Keep reading, it is a good learning experience for both of us.


Do you understand the difference between a single receptacle and a duplex receptacle? :rolleyes:


Receptacle. A receptacle is a contact device installed at the outlet for the connection of
an attachment plug. A single receptacle is a single contact device with no other contact
device on the same yoke. A multiple receptacle is two or more contact devices on the
same yoke

Speedy Petey
12-03-2008, 04:30 PM
Chris, that table only applies when branch circuit supplies 2 or more receptacles or outlets.I am with Chris on this one for sure.
A duplex receptacle is TWO receptacles.

Chris75
12-03-2008, 04:35 PM
I am with Chris on this one for sure.
A duplex receptacle is TWO receptacles.

Thanks bud... gets old arguing with myself sometimes.... ;)

jar546
12-03-2008, 04:37 PM
Ok, I fold. You guys are correct. This is a violation.

I am wrong and I thank you for the lesson.

Chris75
12-03-2008, 04:40 PM
Ok, I fold. You guys are correct. This is a violation.

I am wrong and I thank you for the lesson.

No prob :D

Bill Arden
12-03-2008, 05:29 PM
>Panel
I also don't know why it's ok to leave the wire exposed like that.

I know it's allowed by code, but...

I like my wires to be protected by something more substantial than it's plastic sheath.

Also Why would it make any difference how many outlets you have on a 15 amp string? Using a 20 amp outlet is only asking for trouble.

-
Years ago... I was stacking staples when I first started wiring my garage, but I found muti-wire clamps and removed the earlier stacked staples.

Note: The stacked staples looked really nice since I used longer nails to go threw each plastic spacer.
This resulted in spacer-wire-spacer-wire-spacer-wire-board

-
Back on the story. I don't understand why they did not use the white as the traveler?

The neutral could have come back on a separate 14-2

Then again if they did not have a separate 14-2, how did they power the door opener when the light was off?

The hole story makes me wonder about some people.
1. No ground rod at garage. Code requires separate structures to have ground rods.

2. No separate ground wire. Code requires all sub panels not to have neutral bonded to ground.

3. Technically the size of the wire is legal since the breaker in the house was most likely 15 amp, but lights and a door opener could overload a 15 amp circuit.

4. A GFI on the outdoor outlet could have tripped due to the way the 3-way was wired. To make it not trip they would have had to power the 3-way from the GFI and that would have required it to be either in the house or they would have had to add another wire.

5. Multiple hot sources in same wire. This assumes the 3-way was powered by the closest circuit.

6. Who put in the outdoor outlet and did not add a ground wire?

It's too bad it was not a DYI job.
It would have made a nice Darwin award.

alternety
12-04-2008, 12:50 AM
On the pro box; I am having trouble seeing detail, but there is something red at the top of the wire bundle on the far right going from the top of the box to the ceiling. Would that be an unsheathed wire or something else?

sbrn33
12-11-2008, 02:55 PM
As I look at the pro panel, I can count a least 35 circuits going into what looks like a 150 ampere 30 circuit panel.(judging by the se cable). I am pretty sure that isn't a 40 or 42 space panel.
Thanks Scott

jwelectric
12-11-2008, 03:14 PM
As I look at the pro panel, I can count a least 35 circuits going into what looks like a 150 ampere 30 circuit panel.(judging by the se cable). I am pretty sure that isn't a 40 or 42 space panel.
Thanks Scott

Maybe it is a 30/40 panel

I have installed 1000s of 20/40 panels in my life that were supplied by 100 or 125 amps that had more than 20 spaces used in the panel in apartments

sbrn33
12-12-2008, 06:32 AM
Yea that could be right, I didn't really think about that as it would be pretty rare in a Sq-D QO series. Good catch though.
Either way I would not want anything to do with the insides of that panel, between the QO's crappy neutral bar set-up and the side entry of the wires that baby has got to be packed(neat but packed)
Scott

codeone
12-16-2008, 05:58 AM
I dont know about this being a professional installation. Seems to me it could still be an inexperienced person. Using all those ko's. All pros Ive seen come in through the top, using connectors rated for more than one wire. Or through a pipe or two using the Exception at 312.5(C) of the NEC>

This panel looks as though the person had more concern about astetics than anything else.

frenchelectrican
12-16-2008, 07:31 AM
If you really want a super neat and meet the code and I belive this been show up in one of the electrical magaizne.


Warning Keep your jaws properly supported or get a pillow below it

http://www.electrical-contractor.net/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/122309/1

Enjoy it.,,


Merci,Marc

rgsgww
12-21-2008, 04:20 PM
If you really want a super neat and meet the code and I belive this been show up in one of the electrical magaizne.


Warning Keep your jaws properly supported or get a pillow below it

http://www.electrical-contractor.net/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/122309/1

Enjoy it.,,


Merci,Marc


Looks nice, I would have used conduit instead.

GabeS
12-21-2008, 09:09 PM
Is it a good idea to put some material that doesn't catch fire easily on top of the plywood, like type x sheetrock? I'm talking about between the panel and the wood.

Chris75
12-22-2008, 07:38 PM
Looks nice, I would have used conduit instead.

Alot of derating would have to be considered.

rockycmt
12-23-2008, 10:33 AM
This has been an outstanding thread. I am the ultimate DIYer. I have learned so much from this site. Thanks Terry. Saying that I would never touch a project I am uncomfortable with. You guys help us all fill in the blanks.

From all the DIYers.... We would love to see more pics and advise on:

Don't do this and why.
You got to see this idea.
Great install/workmanship.
Accident waiting to happen.

frenchie
12-23-2008, 10:44 AM
Thanks for posting that, Marc. I had those pics bookmarked, a few years ago. Was looking for it the other day, couldn't find it...

Cookie
12-23-2008, 11:30 AM
This has been an outstanding thread. I am the ultimate DIYer. I have learned so much from this site. Thanks Terry. Saying that I would never touch a project I am uncomfortable with. You guys help us all fill in the blanks.


From all the DIYers.... We would love to see more pics and advise on:

Don't do this and why.
You got to see this idea.
Great install/workmanship.
Accident waiting to happen.

Rocky,

On the electrical forum, Cass also put a thread up, called, Electrical Code Violations, you might want to check there from time to time, too. Good luck.

rockycmt
12-23-2008, 05:31 PM
Yes, I saw it. Can't wait to see things get put up.

Thanks all.

frenchelectrican
12-24-2008, 09:35 PM
Thanks for posting that, Marc. I had those pics bookmarked, a few years ago. Was looking for it the other day, couldn't find it...


De Rein Frenchie

( you are welcome Frenchie )

Merci,Marc