Should the big 3 auto-makers be bailed out?

[Dunbar Plumbing]

When the automakers went to the table,


they didn't even cut any executive salaries/bonuses or trim the excess at the top.


The top 3 have been losing ground for years.....and truth be known?


The MAJORITY if they could afford it, would buy a toyota or honda, nissan or any I missed that literally run forever.


Someone's signature line reads:


"If Honda made humans, we'd never die." :D


It's really hard to kill a honda or toyota...they last forever and their product lines involving generators for honda or other machine equipment is taken in high regard as quality.

I own nothing but ford and chevy but my eyes are turning to a Toyota full sized truck on my next buy. I know someone that owns one and talk about tough.


Discuss, or throw knives and stones...

[Redwood]

I'm hoping that Toyota hits our market with a full size work van before I have to get another one.

This last Jimmy has been the biggest POS I've ever owned.:mad:
It's been on the hook more than any other vehicle I have ever owned in my whole life.

Once again as the US companies outsource the jobs south of the border to take advantage of that cheap labor pool quality suffers, reputations die, and Japanese companies build profitable production facilities in the US...

Go figure!

Seems to be a trend going on here...

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Tis true.


My older box van is a more comfortable ride than my ford F-350. Both are one tons.


Both had major motor work this year....for strange but obvious reasons.

[Cookie]

Not on your life. Let them bail theirselves out.

[maddog]

Have the UAW bail them out - they are the major reason why the US auto manufacturers can't compete.... the bloated labor cost per car ensures they will lose money.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

http://www.wlwt.com/money/17996817/detail.html




Doesn't seem to be hurting Honda one bit.



Jobs jobs jobs.



Build a good product and job security will always be there.


.

[Redwood]

Totota neither...
http://www.toyota.com/about/our_business/operations/manufacturing/

[maintenanceguy]

It's time for the dinosaurs to die.

They'll never be viable saddled with their legacy and union costs.

Letting them fail will be hard for a lot of people in the short term but new industries will open up to fill the void. In the long term, we're all better off without them.

But...they spent a lot of money on political campaigns. If you can't get something for contributing, businesses will stop contributing so our politicians will bail them out. It's in their own best interest.

[alternety]

NO. But I think the government should pay me for everything my retirement investments have lost because of their incredibly stupid oversight and collusion with greedy, remorseless, high level criminals, short sellers, commodity traders, etc. (AKA Senior Management).

[Redwood]

NO. But I think the government should pay me for everything my retirement investments have lost because of their incredibly stupid oversight and collusion with greedy, remorseless, high level criminals, short sellers, commodity traders, etc. (AKA Senior Management).

I'll agree with that!

[Hillbilly Man]

Welp If I paid any taxes on the corn licker I make I'd be concerned about bailing these companies out. But, I don't pay any taxes.

My only concern is for my customers. I'd like to see them have more money to buy more corn licker.

[D.Smith]

If the big 3 would bring back the jobs spent oversees then I can see some type of loan to help them but as I see it they made their bed when the said screw you and move all the jobs oversees. Have China bail them out.

As far as them making junk I have a 2002 E350 pushing 140k, 94 Ford bronco also at 150k neither needing major work. I run my trucks hard and they wont die. I just sold my 98 gmc with 220k with only issue is the fuel pump. Never got more than 70k on a fuel pump. Now my 01 Caravan only has 100k and this year alone I have dropped 2.5k in repairs. I dont see it lasting another 100k.

[Redwood]

My Jimmy has had the following replaced...
Fuel pump, Transmission, & Engine, All before 200K!
I consider it to be a lemon!

I treat my vehicles right too!
As a comparison I bought a 69 chevy van in 1980 with at least 230K on it and I drove it an additional 550K on top of the 230K so that might be a comparison for how I treat a vehicle.

I also have a Toyota Camry with 230K on it with only routine maint. done on it.

[Cookie]

I read where they are begging this morning for the bail out.
Wow. Some class. I wouldn't give them a red cent. If I were in charge of this I would make them give everyone who bought a car from them in the last 10 years, 3000 grand back and also, gift cetificates for the Olive Garden. :D

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081118/ap_on_bi_ge/congress_autos;_ylt=AhKWYVq1HO33bMtWnE7rbNil24cA

It kind of reminds me of a conversation with the boys growing up:
Kid: "Why can't I have 50,000 bucks?"
Mom: " Because I already gave you money, THAT's why, quit yer beggin."
Kid: " I hate you, I hate you, (while stamping his feet)."
Mom: " Good, I am doing my job right." :)

Congress needs to know, the word: NO
Treat em like the kids they are. Thankfully, mine was a lot younger and now grown up, and I beg them for money. (In fairness to my kids, they held jobs since they were old enough to know what money was, I got worker bees...) They are great kids and I proud of them.

[Cass]

NO...No bail out $$$...

I just parked my E 150 for the last time with 345K on it. Original engine and trans.

I am sold on synthetic oil...Royal Purple or Mobile 1 Extended Mileage and Lucas pure synthetic additive added at a ratio of 1 plus 4 qts.oil or 20%. This will get me 10-12K before I change the oil again...the oil will be dirty but will not have broken down. I also change the filter every 5-6K and I use good filters.

If the engine does not have any problems this will greatly extend the life of the engine. When I started using the Lucas Pure Synthetic I noticed the oil staying cleaner much longer...

The other thing I have started using and like is Autolite double platinum Spark Plugs and Bosh wires...it gives you the hottest spark for better combustion and the Platinum will give long plug life.

The wires are important...I ohmed a new set of Auto Zones Lifetime and they ohmed in at 10-11 the bosh ohmed at 3-4...the old ones I was taking out which were the original wires with 95K on them ohmed at 7-8 ...:eek:

[Dunbar Plumbing]

Henry Paulson just mentioned this morning,



"Look, were not going to bail out plumbing contractors in this matter, along with others who are lining up to take advantage of this money."



Great,

We're getting used like a pawn again for political rhetoric, bastards!


The way it sounds, they seem pretty sure they are NOT going to lend them money.

Time to go BUH-BYE.


$67/hour per worker is an extreme number to build a car, don't ya think?

And they can't make money in building vehicles with the idea of flex fuels.

That just minimizes that margin even greater.

I've had good luck with Ford and Chevy, never owned a Dodge but there's a competitor that builds vehicles that last twice as long without major nickel and diming along the way.

It's time to pay the piper.....tnose people will find jobs just like all the others did when other automobile companies went under in years past.

[Cass]

I say we all on this board start an auto company and see if we can get some of the bail out $$$...we can build cars that run on wind energy

here is my next work vehicle prototype

http://static.flickr.com/58/197393607_d8a900ae44.jpg

when we make our millions then we can spread the wealth around and then when we are broke go back for another hand out.

[master plumber mark]

Their is a stink going on right now in Washington about
how the federal reserve wont divulge the names of
everyone in the financial world that got bailed out...

They refuse to tell the news papers how many bernsteins,
weinstings, goldbergs, rotternbergs, goldsteins,
and others put their hand out and got millions of dollars for a bail out.


they are all embarrassed to be caught with their hands
in this political cookie jar. they dont want to show how much
the federal reserve gave away to political cronies and people in favor........

they should have let them all fail and have been done with it..




Now as far as the BIG 3..... its going to be a mess..

this will be the death of the unions, and the death of a lifestyle that has been going on since WWll....

they certainly dont deserve what they all make from the very top to the bottom and when it fails it is going to drag
the whole country into a deep depression..

When a country gets the mentality that they are too good or too lazy to work for less than 10 bucks an hour and they give all their jobs away to Mexico and China,

and then open the borders to anyone who will come up here and do all the nasty jobs that neither the blacks or whites will do. anymore........then you got troubles.......

Everyone from the top too the bottom wanted to be paid like kings for doing menial... mostly mindless jobs at all these factories, and the unions fought for those higher wages... 67 per hour... .

The unions fought for all of this and now they have basically killed the goose that laid the golden egg...

Everryone has lived like kings for a long time and got fat and lazy, living in houses larger than they can afford, ect ect////

I thik its called the American Dream??

now that the Goose that laid the golden eggs is dieing right before our very eyes, ,

I really fear that we are all going to have to learn how to
live like peasents for a decade or so till we finally come to our senses... and back down to earth...

In 2000 I had had employees walk out my door screaming calling me a dirty S.o.b for 25 per hour plus full medicle benefits for his family (650 per month) , plus a truck to drive and he refused to more than 40 hrs per week...

how the screw has turned.....

at a supply house downtown, a plumbinc company paid their over due bill with a plumbing truck that they are going to raffle off this week.....10 dollars per ticket..

that company got ate up with high salaries, medical packages, trucks, and no more work comming in...


enough ranting and raveing.........,

I got to go out and do some of the dirty work today...

Install 1 water heater, cut open a ceiling and find a leak,

winterize two houses......

plus whatever else comes in on my phone today...

I am blessed for now that our phone still rings and we
ahve plenty to keep things moveing.....

Enjoy it while you can fellas,

cause the phone will
probably stop ringing someday when the bottom falls out for everybody.....

....






...

[hj]

They didn't even blink when they were asked to bailout the financial market which has been stealing money for years and then cried for help when they got caught. Now we hear that half the 750 billion dollars has been "donated" and the only ones who have benefited so far have been the banks, not the consumers. If you think the auto industry will still fail if given an infusion, what do you think will happen once the financial industry has stolen the 750 billion, and needs a new loan? At least the auto industry is producing a usable product. You do realize, I hope, that if the auto industry fails, the pensioners will not lose their benefits. The government, meaning you and me, will probably have to assume the cost.

[jimbo]

Sunday's paper had an article about the 10 cars that killed Detroit. You can find the article with a google so I won't copy it here. But there are no surprises, and anyone outside the industry could have told you the story last year...and 10 years ago....and 30 years ago.

The article also mentioned the 10 cars that could save Detroit....if they got their head out of their ass, which they won't.

[Mort]

Kind of a tangent, but as of today, Mattel has over twice the market cap of GM.....whoda thunk:eek:

These car guys are kind of pikers in the great 08 bailout mania.....hecks fire, AIG alone is up above $150B with no upside in sight.

Please write your representatives and urge them to help the Bank of Mort....we'll bail cheap.

Mort

[Redwood]

Today the vote was delayed and the auto execs must present a business plan before they get money...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081120/ap_on_go_co/congress_autos

I wonder why the finance wizards that squandered my 401k didn't have to do that?

Get the rope! It's time to have a few good ol fashioned necktie parties!

[maintenanceguy]

Heard on the radio yesterday that the rail and public transit industry is having a difficult time now too. I bet they'll be in Washington with their hand out within a month.

[Cass]

Obama will save us...

[Mort]

Obama will save us...

Fixed it for you

[Obama the Plumber]

Obama will save us...

Well, thank you , but I mainly just do plumbing.
I will think about it though while I'm watching football today.

TOTO manufactures many of their products in America (http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32281&highlight=buy+american)

[Redwood]

A Japanese company (Toyota) and an American company (Ford Motors) decided to have a canoe race on the Missouri River. Both teams practiced long and hard to reach their peak performance before the race.

On the big day, the Japanese won by a mile.

The Americans, very discouraged and depressed, decided to investigate the reason for the crushing defeat. A management team made up of senior management was formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action. Their conclusion was the Japanese had 8 people rowing and 1 person steering, while the American team had 7 people steering and 2 people rowing.

Feeling a deeper study was in order; American management hired a consulting company and paid them a large amount of money for a second opinion. They advised, of course, that too many people were steering the boat, while not enough people were rowing.

Not sure of how to utilize that information, but wanting to prevent another loss to the Japanese, the rowing team's management structure was totally reorganized to 4 steering supervisors, 2 area steering superintendents and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager.

They also implemented a new performance system that would give the 2 people rowing the boat greater incentive to work harder. It was called the 'Rowing Team Quality First Program,' with meetings, dinners and free pens for the rowers. There was discussion of getting new paddles, canoes and other equipment, extra vacation days for practices and bonuses. The pension program was trimmed to 'equal the competition' and some of the resultant savings were channeled into morale boosting programs and teamwork posters.

The next year the Japanese won by two miles.

Humiliated, the American management laid-off one rower, halted development of a new canoe, sold all the paddles, and canceled all capital investments for new equipment. The money saved was distributed to the Senior Executives as bonuses.

The next year, try as he might, the lone designated rower was unable to even finish the race (having no paddles,) so he was laid off for unacceptable performance, all canoe equipment was sold and the next year's racing team was out-sourced to India .

Here's something else to think about: FORD has spent the last thirty years moving all its factories out of the US, claiming they can't make money paying American wages. TOYOTA has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants inside the US. The last quarter's results: TOYOTA makes 4 billion in profits while Ford racked up 9 billion in losses.

Ford folks are still scratching their heads, and collecting bonuses... and now wants the Government to 'bail them out'.

IF THIS WEREN'T SO TRUE IT MIGHT BE FUNNY :mad:

[jimbo]

This is the home of Bob Nardelli. Built with the loot he plundered from Home Depot, and now Chrsysler. For pete's sake...HE could bail out Chrysler all by himself!
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_il8Um8Q4Eb8/STXPqnH61GI/AAAAAAAAC9U/R4z-DDQIEUg/s400/garmonroad.JPG

[99k]

A Japanese company (Toyota) and an American company (Ford Motors) decided to have a canoe race on the Missouri River. Both teams practiced long and hard to reach their peak performance before the race.

On the big day, the Japanese won by a mile.

The Americans, very discouraged and depressed, decided to investigate the reason for the crushing defeat. A management team made up of senior management was formed to investigate and recommend appropriate action. Their conclusion was the Japanese had 8 people rowing and 1 person steering, while the American team had 7 people steering and 2 people rowing.

Feeling a deeper study was in order; American management hired a consulting company and paid them a large amount of money for a second opinion. They advised, of course, that too many people were steering the boat, while not enough people were rowing.

Not sure of how to utilize that information, but wanting to prevent another loss to the Japanese, the rowing team's management structure was totally reorganized to 4 steering supervisors, 2 area steering superintendents and 1 assistant superintendent steering manager.

They also implemented a new performance system that would give the 2 people rowing the boat greater incentive to work harder. It was called the 'Rowing Team Quality First Program,' with meetings, dinners and free pens for the rowers. There was discussion of getting new paddles, canoes and other equipment, extra vacation days for practices and bonuses. The pension program was trimmed to 'equal the competition' and some of the resultant savings were channeled into morale boosting programs and teamwork posters.

The next year the Japanese won by two miles.

Humiliated, the American management laid-off one rower, halted development of a new canoe, sold all the paddles, and canceled all capital investments for new equipment. The money saved was distributed to the Senior Executives as bonuses.

The next year, try as he might, the lone designated rower was unable to even finish the race (having no paddles,) so he was laid off for unacceptable performance, all canoe equipment was sold and the next year's racing team was out-sourced to India .

Here's something else to think about: FORD has spent the last thirty years moving all its factories out of the US, claiming they can't make money paying American wages. TOYOTA has spent the last thirty years building more than a dozen plants inside the US. The last quarter's results: TOYOTA makes 4 billion in profits while Ford racked up 9 billion in losses.

Ford folks are still scratching their heads, and collecting bonuses... and now wants the Government to 'bail them out'.

IF THIS WEREN'T SO TRUE IT MIGHT BE FUNNY :mad:

Before I got into this business, I worked directly with the Big 3 as a Tier 1 auto supplier. I wore many hats as Manufacturing Engineer, Design Engineer, and Project Manager. The above joke is dead on ... they deserve to go down the toilet. Ford was the worst organization and to this day I would never buy one of their products.

[excalibu26]

What is conveniently ignored, and you need to wrap your brain around this, is all the tax benefits Tokyo gives their auto makers. Including rebating taxes that Toyota, Honda, et al pay in the USA.

This is not a level playing field at all. Even with all the *legacy* problems that US auto makers have. The goal from Tokyo has been, and still is, to destroy as much American industry as they can, and that we are willing to allow with unwitting fools.

[99k]

What is conveniently ignored, and you need to wrap your brain around this, is all the tax benefits Tokyo gives their auto makers. Including rebating taxes that Toyota, Honda, et al pay in the USA.

This is not a level playing field at all. Even with all the *legacy* problems that US auto makers have. The goal from Tokyo has been, and still is, to destroy as much American industry as they can, and that we are willing to allow with unwitting fools.

There is always a "real" reason and a "good" reason in any argument. You have given me the "good" reason. Show me the data. They simply don't know how to run a business and their quality and levels of customer service can't compare. Also, costs are totally out of control ... but the answer was not to keep pounding on their suppliers so that there was zero profit in it for them ... that just leads to more problems. It is also interesting to look back into history at the last oil crisis during the 70's ... again the Big 3 was caught with their pants down with huge inventories of gas guzzlers. All of the profit margin is in the gas guzzler. Last I knew, Ford made about 15,000 on a larger truck like an F350. Yet a small car like a cavelier (GM) made only $100.

[excalibu26]

Perception counts for too much. The quality gap has been virtually closed since the 1980's low point. But perception is different, and adversely affects the issue.

The facts are that Tokyo aids their car makers, big time, to the detriment of America's. Yes, *legacy* costs need to be reigned in. But as for quality, there is little difference any more.

[Master Plumber 101]

It appears the same people who feel the goverment interferes to much now want the goverment to save them. I don't blame the workers for this situation. It's clearly greed of the elite who put our country in this position. They can continue to bath in the filth they created but in the end the axe will drop on them. It's us peons who truly control this great nation. The way we get goverment and the elite to listen is with our pocket books. Things have to get much worse before they can get better.

TOTO manufactures many of their products in America (http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32281&highlight=buy+american)

[99k]

But as for quality, there is little difference any more.

You're joking right? Do you really think a Honda or Toyota quality and the big 3 are at par ... not even close. My Toyota truck at 186K miles has only needed a clutch and a slave cylinder. That was it. Last month, Toyota bought back my truck do to excessive rust ... paid me $8700:eek: ( that was 1.5 x retail book value)and put me in a rental car for 7 weeks at NO COST. That is customer service.

[master plumber mark]

It's us peons who truly control this great nation. The way we get goverment and the elite to listen is with our pocket books. Things have to get much worse before they can get better.


this is all probably true,
the one part you have not taken into consideration is " us peons" dont really control anything....

and when its all said and done and everything starts going down the drain we are not going to just be peons anymore....

most of us are gonna all be called " peasents".......


basically ...... if we dont bail them out and somehow castrate the idiot management at the top,,,,

we are going to all be peasents for a long time.

no home, no job and no where to go......

I dont think many people know exactly what the
difference is between being a peon and being a peasnet.

A peon is someone who still has a job and a
living and was willing to make concessions to his lavish paycheck and benefits he has enjoyed for 45 years......

those concessioins are necessary or he will learn what it means to be a peasent...


A peasent is someone standing at the street corner with a "I will work for food" sign...



I suggest that we bail them out ,
or be willing to suffer some very dire consequences




..

.

.

[Dunbar Plumbing]

BANKRUPTCY (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a8NiLMoTo1v8&refer=worldwide) 5882



Grab some 5883 cuz yo gonna need it.

[99k]

You've heard the old axiom: "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results".

If you give the Big 3 all that money, what is going to change? Perhaps we may see what the airlines did, go bankrupt, bust the unions, and start the business back up. Something radical must happen ... we do not have the money to bail out every business that is failing.

[99k]

Hey Rugged:
Are you close to the Ford Transmission plant in Sharonville ... I made many a trip out there. I seem to remember the plant was 100 acres under one roof ... monsterous.

[Redwood]

Perception counts for too much. The quality gap has been virtually closed since the 1980's low point. But perception is different, and adversely affects the issue.

The facts are that Tokyo aids their car makers, big time, to the detriment of America's. Yes, *legacy* costs need to be reigned in. But as for quality, there is little difference any more.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2/Redwood39/crack_pipe.jpg

On my GMC work van I have replaced both the transmission and the engine before I reached 200K miles. My wifes Toyota Camry has almost 240K without anything other than routine maint.

Some years back I bought a 1969 Chevy Van used that had 230K on it when I bought it. I drove it for an additional 550K on top of the 230K it already had. I take care of my vehicles but this last Jimmy hasn't taken care of me! I look forward to the day that Toyota introduces a full size work van in the US. I just hope this POS Jimmy lasts that long cause I sure don't want to buy another one!:mad:

[99k]

I look forward to the day that Toyota introduces a full size work van in the US.

You and me both Redwood. Toyota would steal an incredible amount of market share ... why they have not introduced this vehicle is puzzling? Perhaps they are worried of monopolizing the automotive business and decided to leave this slice of pie alone.

[master plumber mark]

I sppose that everyone can start to gear down their life styles and start living more like the Amish do.

plant a garden in the back yard..., .

I probably have a head start on all that...
just being a German Plumber. ......it is in my DNA.

the big problem is ,
their is that "cold turkey" period of about 5 years
when the downsizeing pain almost becomes unbearable...... that I really worry about......

desperate people will do desperate things to feed their family....that is why I pack a Glock.....

I suppose it would be a humbling experience for everyone to have to leave a 6 bedroom home and
move into a two bedroom apartment somewhere..??

we just had a 180,000 house across the lane get foreclosed on and I wonder where they went.....

Basically ,, if they dont bail them all out...

get ready to hear "that giant sucking sound"
that Ross Perot. spoke about when he was running for president back in the mid 90s

[99k]

get ready to hear "that giant sucking sound"
that Ross Perot. spoke about when he was running for president back in the mid 90s

I've heard that sucking sound for the last 10 years when I was in the auto biz ... all of the executives creating big cost reductions by outsourcing to Mexico and third world countries or pounding on their Tier 1 suppliers until they too had to outsource due to mandatory price concessions or breaking the contracts with their suppliers and threatening to never give them future business ... who benefited from these cost reductions? The greedy executives did ... "look at all the money I saved and now I get a big bonus ..."

[Master Plumber 101]

Let's not all forget who got us into this huge pile of you know what. It's not the unions or people buying houses they can't afford, it's clearly greed from a select minority of rich elite. They come up with these scams to make a quick buck without giving a crap about anyone elses future other than their own. These same people who don't want to pay taxes for public schools or welfare when in a situation of discusting filth they created want a hand out themselfs. Like Jonny Cash said "They keep on breathing, that's what tortures me." I think that tortures all of us hard working people who had our savings ripped out from under us in the past few months.

[Verdeboy]

I lived in Detroit for most of my life and always drove a Japanese car. I can't tell you how many times passers-by would yell out insults or throw garbage at me, especially in the seventies and eighties. Most people who lived in the Midwest and drove foreign cars endured this sort of intimidation. The result was that most people would rather "buy American" than risk being called "unamerican." All this intimidation and propaganda served to prop up the Big 3 and allowed them to continue to make and sell millions of crappy automobiles.

Instead of bailing out the big 3, they should take that money and give to a few select entrepreneurs as start-up capital to create a few new car companies that will be better run and produce vehicles with little or no emissions and get very high mileage.

[Redwood]

Looks like congress places a higher value on banks throwing money around unwisely than those that actually attempt to make a profit making a product.

It looks like the bailout has gone down the tubes and the workers (union) are taking the blame.

Figures!:mad:

[Terry]

Huffington Post story
In most cases, we were looking after retirement accounts of workers. Which is to say, few people cared about the investors, and many of the firms "representing" the pension funds were focused on how to generate as many fees and commissions as possible. I remember one co-worker who only half jokingly used to start the day with the remark --" who are we going to f**** today." Some days it was not much of a joke.


The rest of the story (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-love/markets-for-financial-cri_b_150757.html)

[Cookie]

This will explain the bailout.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88E0TYijc5I

[Redwood]

Everybody should know 5 X 14 = 25...
Good one Cookie...