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View Full Version : Farm house gutted, Plumbers weigh in



samoht
11-13-2008, 09:31 AM
Hello,
New member with a few questions about an essentially new plumbing system on an old farmhouse. I have submitted two pictures:

1. FIRST FLOOR: I have a toilet located in the corner of the first floor that is difficult to get a vent to. With my current arrangement, the toilet can be vented either through the vanity or the washing machine line. The vanity has a 5 foot wet horizontal run between it and the toilet. The washing machine has a 16 inch horizontal run between it and the 3" waste line coming from the toilet. Each of these have 1/4"/foot or slightly more slope and a 2 inch vent. Is the inspector going to fuss about this wet venting? There is the main vent about 8 feet from the toilet, but from the toilet trap to the 3" horizontal line is about 32" of drop.

2. SECOND FLOOR: I was reading that it is a good idea to wash the toilet waste line with an upstream tub or wash machine. I have the 2" tub line coming into the top of a wye laid on its side and the toilet coming into the 45 of the wye. Also there is a vent in the 2 inch line just upstream of the wye for the toilet and tub. Will this arrangement pass with the inspector? If not, what should I change. (Nothing is glued yet. The vanity will come into the top of the low heel 90 and will have a Studor on it for venting).

Thanks for your help
Matt

samoht
11-13-2008, 09:32 AM
And, sorry for the jack studs. The foundation is having some work done. Also, the electrical is a mess until I get the hvac ducting in.

Terry
11-13-2008, 09:46 AM
On the bottom picture, the toilet is not vented right, and neither is the tub.

I can't see how the venting is being done on the top picture to comment.
Please don't close this up without a plumbing inspection.
Right now I see too many problems.

samoht
11-13-2008, 11:31 AM
For the bottom picture: I was having finding a way to put a tee or wye just after the tub trap and have the vent come up at a 45 degree angle and vent to the inside wall (same wall the tub's faucet will be on). Looking through a plumbing book, it showed a toilet vent using a 3x3x2 waste tee on its back just downstream of the toilet with a 2" street 90 to a horizontal vent running some distance to an available wall, then turning up and into the attic. Can you suggest another way of venting the tub and toilet? The toilet has a window on the wall it backs to, otherwise I would use that.

I will take a few more pictures of the first floor to show it better.

All help is appreciated.
Thanks

jimbo
11-13-2008, 02:22 PM
One big problem is that a vent cannot run horizontal until it is 6" higher than the fixtures it vents.

samoht
11-13-2008, 03:08 PM
Thanks for the information about the vent low vent. I would still like to be able to vent the tub into the interior wall that in which the faucet is located. I am having difficulty finding a way to do this and keep the tub trap high enough for ceiling drywall. On way would be to remove the street 90 from the trap and replace that with a 2" sanitary tee on its belly (where a trap arm would typically come in pointed down and connect to one end of the tub trap). The one end of the sanitary tee would point horizontal as the drain and the opposite end would be connected to a street 45 or 90 and serve as the vent. Would this pass code?

nhmaster
11-13-2008, 05:42 PM
You can't lay a sanitary tee on it's back.

Southern Man
11-13-2008, 07:05 PM
One big problem is that a vent cannot run horizontal until it is 6" higher than the fixtures it vents.

Maybe he can drop the drain in the bottom picture to be all below the joists, then run his smaller vent lines in the joist space and if needed, through them.

Attached is the allowable cutting and notching from our 2006 residential Code.

Dunbar Plumbing
11-13-2008, 08:53 PM
Tear it all back out because it's wrong, and it's going to be a problematic plumbing system. Flushing the toilet is going to suck the lavatory dry.

Southern Man
11-14-2008, 08:05 AM
Methinks less drastic measures will prevail. :rolleyes:

Hillbilly Man
11-14-2008, 10:50 AM
Southern Man is smart i'll tell U.
My outhouse wuz stankin reel bad n he helped me cut out a couple of moon shaped vent holz so the wind blues right threw...
No more stank he's a magic man.

Gary Swart
11-14-2008, 11:03 AM
My friend, you are obviously not too well up on plumbing code requirements. While there are several very knowledgeable folks on this forum that have pointed out some of your errors, there are still many ways to screw this job up. Like you, I'm a committed DIYer, but I subscribe to the Dirty Harry Principle that says, "A man's got to know his limitations." The trick is to recognize when you reach your limits and go for help. There are limits to how much help we can give on the forum. My advice to you is to have your drains and vents done by a real plumber. You will be time and money ahead.:)

hj
11-14-2008, 12:05 PM
We have no problem advising on minor DIY repairs, but this is a major plumbing system, and as such is not a DIY project unless you know what you are doing. How a plumber would perform your questions would often depend on how he decided to do it AFTER looking at your building and the plumbing fixture placement. It is also the reason why we spend years in school to learn how to make those decisions. The second floor tub and toilet are not vented, and the vent you do have was a waste of time and material because it does nothing.

nhmaster
11-14-2008, 01:08 PM
Honestly, if faced with what is there I would cut it all out and start over. Trying to re-work it is more work than it's worth.

Redwood
11-14-2008, 01:48 PM
I might reuse some of the long lengths I cut out.

samoht
11-14-2008, 08:08 PM
I made some changes and I will pay the $50 for a reinspection. Getting a plumber would put me time ahead, but money way behind. For those of you who offered help, thank you. To me, it looks like the toilet is vented through the vent in the 90 bend that goes from horizontal to vertical (the toilet being within the critical distance to the vent). All the piping is just fitted at this point, so no need to cut and scrap it.

Redwood
11-14-2008, 09:05 PM
You mean everything we see is dry fit?:eek:

samoht
11-14-2008, 09:29 PM
The plumbing inspector said to dry fit everything and get it inspected.

samoht
11-14-2008, 09:45 PM
Unless you have advice, please save your interjections for another thread. This is the "DIY advice forum". Not blowhard forum. Writing "thats wrong" or "tear it out" does not help.

Redwood
11-14-2008, 09:58 PM
The problem is that when you dry fit the connections do not seat fully. When you you cement the connections every connection is going to be between 1/2" to 1" deeper into the hub socket than when it is dry. Your pipes will be too short.

Sorry if you don't like "Blowhard Advice" but You are messing up!

Dunbar Plumbing
11-14-2008, 10:20 PM
Unless you have advice, please save your interjections for another thread. This is the "DIY advice forum". Not blowhard forum. Writing "thats wrong" or "tear it out" does not help.


So you come to a very helpful site,

you don't give us a state or reference to what code your state enforces, let alone the local authority that can supercede any/some or all of the code implied by state.


Then,


1. FIRST FLOOR: I have a toilet located in the corner of the first floor that is difficult to get a vent to. With my current arrangement, the toilet can be vented either through the vanity or the washing machine line. The vanity has a 5 foot wet horizontal run between it and the toilet. The washing machine has a 16 inch horizontal run between it and the 3" waste line coming from the toilet. Each of these have 1/4"/foot or slightly more slope and a 2 inch vent. Is the inspector going to fuss about this wet venting? There is the main vent about 8 feet from the toilet, but from the toilet trap to the 3" horizontal line is about 32" of drop.

2. SECOND FLOOR: I was reading that it is a good idea to wash the toilet waste line with an upstream tub or wash machine. I have the 2" tub line coming into the top of a wye laid on its side and the toilet coming into the 45 of the wye. Also there is a vent in the 2 inch line just upstream of the wye for the toilet and tub. Will this arrangement pass with the inspector? If not, what should I change. (Nothing is glued yet. The vanity will come into the top of the low heel 90 and will have a Studor on it for venting).

http://www.terrylove.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=6020&stc=1&d=1230323207



I see keywords that spell disaster on a system that when done right, doesn't have words like:


wet venting

studor vent

vent 8' from toilet



You are expecting someone who does this for a living to say "it's okay" to run this system the way you did.


Since we have absolutely no clue where you live, what state codes you run under...


it all looks fine. Glue that piping together and cover it up. Feel free to enjoy your work.

Somewhere you've missed the point of constructive criticism and turning defensive because you've double worked your project isn't my fault or any of the plumbers here that are trying to help you.


This statement below,


Getting a plumber would put me time ahead, but money way behind


gives me satisfaction knowing that once again, whenever I hear someone trying to install the mechanicals in their home based solely for financial reasons...


the project shouldn't even exist.



I've been the lucky plumber walking into brand new bathrooms, new flooring, new walls, nice trimmings and the plumbing has to be tore out to keep it from constantly clogging up on a regular basis.

The grin on my face denotes sarcasm and they know it when I'm there telling them the hardships they now own with no way of ever correcting without large expenditures.


You wouldn't believe how many homes I've been to where a fixture was disabled for that reason.

All because glue and pipe easily come together to make a toilet flush or a sink drain.



5754

samoht
11-15-2008, 05:11 AM
Constructive criticism is welcome. Saying "thats wrong" or "tear it out" without detailing why it is wrong or what to do instead is not constructive. This is what I was referring to with the comment "blowhard".

Your advice to avoid:

wet venting
studor vent
vent 8' from toilet

was constructive. Thank you.

master plumber mark
11-15-2008, 05:41 AM
Dont take anyone too personally here....

call the insprector out and let him look at it ...

Like everyone says...
The top picture cannot tell much

but the bottom picture could use some modifications...

You have a drop ceiling or a chase where the plumbing is
so its not going to be hard to change and to modify

For INDIANA only I would suggest that
you simply put in another 3 x2 wye in the line past the
toilet ..... and use it for both a revent and the lavaroty drain (still useing the studor vent under the cabinet)
you should have the room to do that...


run the revent down the chase to the other vent
take it up to the next floor and
tie it back in on the next floor up with the other vent.
at least a foot above any flood rim of any fixture.....

capp off or throw away that open end elbow..

then you have two 2 inch revents in the system

In this state that would pass,

somewhere else they
might want another re-vent on the tub....


before you listen to me or any other wizard here,


I would just call the inspector and let him tell you what
he wants you to change to make HIM happy

hj
11-15-2008, 06:38 AM
Our inspectors would have told you to glue it all together and then fill it with water. THEN they will inspect it. ANYTHING they do not like would be rejected and you would have to cut it out and redo it, and if there were any leaks you would have to do that for them also.

hj
11-15-2008, 06:45 AM
Unless you have advice, please save your interjections for another thread. This is the "DIY advice forum". Not blowhard forum. Writing "thats wrong" or "tear it out" does not help.

But when we give you the DIY advice that you are in over your head, that you should rethink the installation, and it is incorrect, you don't want to listen anyway. This is not a "Flip this House" column telling you how to do things the cheapest way just to get it done. Some of our worst jobs are DIY installations where someone has followed someone else's instructions but had no idea what they were being told. It is a DIY column only to the extent that we have to decide what is suitable for you to DIY. The inspector will tell you whether he thinks the toilet is vented, regardless of your opinion, but if he actually told you to dry fit the installation before an inspection, he may not be much of an inspector either. Once it is inspected and you start taking things apart HOW will he know if you reassemble it the same way, or decide to make some modifications that will save you some time? He must be a very trusting inspector, and I know a lot of plumbers in this area who would love to have him as an inspector. In fact most of them who do new construction would appreciate him.

Dunbar Plumbing
11-15-2008, 07:35 AM
Constructive criticism is welcome. Saying "thats wrong" or "tear it out" without detailing why it is wrong or what to do instead is not constructive. This is what I was referring to with the comment "blowhard".

Your advice to avoid:

wet venting
studor vent
vent 8' from toilet

was constructive. Thank you.



And I also stated this:



Flushing the toilet is going to suck the lavatory dry.





You still have not given us a location where you live, where the structure is located. Is this intentional?

Makes it impossible for anyone to directly target code reference to which you are to abide by in that plumbing system.

Terry
11-15-2008, 09:35 AM
Knowing the location helps.
I work on the Left coast, "West" so my advice would be for the UPC plumbing code.

You've heard by now that you can't "dry fit" waste lines.
Whoever told you to do that wasn't thinking.

All fittings on the horizontal below grade need to be wye type fittings.
You can use a Santee on the vertical.
In fact, when running a trap arm over, you would "use" a santee in that case. A wye fitting would create an S trap.

Most plumbers aren't allowed to run waste and vents until they have been running copper alongside waste and vents for a year.
It's not that plumbers are stupid, like some people think, it's just that it takes a while for it all to sink in.
Once we have learned how to do it right, it's very hard to "quickly" explain the how and why, and even harder when we are not on site.
One thing that hj mentions, is that if a plumber were to look at the job, he would "see" everything that needed to be missed, and where he could opportunistically locate fittings and pipes in the most useful and economical way.
A "plumbers way" may look very different.