Water main leaking in front yard

[titan77]

2nd problem of the day. I noticed in the front of my house where the water line comes in the house and the hose bid is that the river rocks I have for ground cover are now under water and I can see the damp dirt around the surrounding areas. I am assuming I have a leak on the main suppy to the house. The last couple of months my water bill has been sky high, I could not figure out why. The street meter is about 30 feet away strait line from where I am seeing the water. I am hoping it's broken near the house so they do not have to break up the cement walkway:eek:

I have a good plumber coming out on Wed, that's the soonest he can come out. Is this a job for a plumber or do I need some sort of specialist?

thanks!

[hj]

It is a plumber's job and may be a connection between a PVC and copper line near the house or near the meter.

[Jay Mpls]

Water and sewer company may have to set you straight on this problem.
How old is your house.What part of the country are you in.Newer line may just require a spot repair.Not uncommon to find lead coming in from the street here!

[titan77]

I live in Southern CA. The house is 30 yrs old. We had a pretty good earthquake about 2 months ago and since then the city has had to repair two underground waterleaks on my street.

[Gary Swart]

Might be worthwhile to check your homeowners insurance. If the damage was earthquake caused, it might be covered.

[Southern Man]

Also call the water company once the leak is found and fixed. They may have a policy of leak forgiveness so you don't have to pay a huge water bill.

[titan77]

Well the plumber came today, the Poly supply line cracked at the hose clamp where it met up with the copper going into the house. Estimates were as follows:
$800.00 to repair it.
$2200 to replace the supply line to meter with PVC
$2800 to replace supply line to meter with copper.

I almost fell over, not sure if these are out of line in So. CA or not. I went with the repair, since I have had no issues in 30 years. I did not want to spend 2-3k for a total replacement. My plumber said the repair could last a week or forever.

So did I get hosed?

[Southern Man]

Always ask for an itemized bill with man hours and rates. A typical billing rate of $75/hour means that he should have worked over ten hours. I think you got the shaft.

[titan77]

Thanks, they were here 4 hours @ $200.00 per hour, hell I am in the wrong business. Thanks for the tip but I no plumber around here works on a hourly rate for this job. I called 3 places.

[Southern Man]

So two guys at $100 each? That's crazy. And they won't guarantee their work.

[MACPLUMB 777]

Hate to say this but for $2800.00 and a 30' run to the street i could have just about installed a new 1" gold plated copper line and warranted it
till your grand children died of old age ! !

P. S. E-MAIL WITH INFORMATION AND I WILL TELL YOU HOW TO POSSIBLY ? ? GET SOME MONEY BACK ?

[Terry]

Plumbing rates are variable depending on "where" you are, and who "they" are.
Most people want a quote for the job, not an opened ended hours plus material.

Without seeing the job, it's hard to second guess.
The last water service leak I looked at was near an electrical vault, has cable, electrical and gas running in the area.
Before digging was started, those items were marked.
Some of the time on these jobs is in the phone calls, and transportation.
It's like doing a water heater,
Go to a supplier to get the heater and parts,
drive over to the job,
Do the job,
Then drive to the metal recycle and drop off the tank,
Then drive back to the shop.

[MACPLUMB 777]

Yes "terry" i know all that;
and i agree with you but calif. Has open contract laws
if you can get the homeowner to sign a contract,
and the sky is the limit,
just going by what they posted which i know you can't do ! !

[Terry]

MACPLUMB 777,
Well, I know what you mean, some of these outfits are doubling my pricing.

But if they signed before the work was started, there isn't much you can do later.

[Southern Man]

Yeah, like that.;)

[Terry]

At least you now notice how much time is spent for a job that is off site and invisible to the homeowner.

Like today, I went out and found that the lav problem was the drain, it had completely rotted out.
It was the forth place we went to before we found a replacement in stock, Darn, should have been charging by the hour.

[Southern Man]

There are typically more unknowns on the engineering side of a job because it involves planning. Typically an owner doesn't know the scope himself at that point in the project. So what I typically do is give people a proposal with an educated guess of a defined scope, my hourly rates and expenses and a NTE budget. If the scope changes then I stop and renegotiate. If the job takes less time then he gets a bargain. If I get stuck on something within the original scope then I charge only up the the NTE price.

[sjsmithjr]

Everything I've done in the last 3 years has been firm fixed price for A&E services; competitive bid. Scope change? Our clients don't go for that so easy any more. Sometimes you make money; sometimes you lose. Overall the margins have been better than T&M or NTE.

[titan77]

I am not knocking the plumber, I have used them 4-5 times during bathroom remodels. I just thought it seemed high but not much you can do when water is flooding the front yard.

It seemed pretty straight forward, they dug up the dirt, the leak was at the hose clamp. Now, they had to figure out a way to join the repair to the copper, etc, but there was nothing else.

I guess I figured it was going to be $1000 to replace the entire service. Never had an issue like this before so I guess sticker shock kicked in.

I know if it took 4 hours there must have been more to it but all they told me they were going to do is repair the connection.

I think I will get more estimates before I replace the entire service. I am not paying $3000.00 for a straight 30 foot run that only has to go under the city sidewalk and one 5x3 foot slab. there is nothing else in the way.

[hj]

It doesn't sound like a two man job in the first place, and unless they were completely incompetent it should not have taken four hours. But when you ask for a fixed estimate, they have to ASSUME it WILL take two men and four hours. If it takes less time they got a bonus, and if it takes longer they lose money. But the odds are that whatever they estimate will be on the hign side so they get more bonuses than losses.

[Southern Man]

I find it had to believe that a hose clamp meets Code. Where is this, Mexico?

[Terry]

I find it had to believe that a hose clamp meets Code. Where is this, Mexico?


Most water services and wells are installed with poly pipe, insert fittings and hose clamps. All of these are code approved legal in the United States under all of the codes.

Other options are PEX, PVC, Copper

Pipe information (http://www.terrylove.com/pipe.htm)

[Southern Man]

Most water services and wells are installed with poly pipe, insert fittings and hose clamps. All of these are code approved legal in the United States under all of the codes.
So the professional plumber who said that "the repair could last a week or forever". Was trying to hood wink titan77 into buying a more costly and intrusive repair. Right?

[Terry]

So the professional plumber who said that "the repair could last a week or forever". Was trying to hood wink titan77 into buying a more costly and intrusive repair. Right?

No, he was just being honest.
You can repair a poly line, and the part that is new should be good for years.
The pipe he can not guarantee, is the old stuff that was not replaced.

Are you sure you have any experience in the construction field?
These things you come up with don't make any sense.

[Southern Man]

The pipe he can not guarantee, is the old stuff that was not replaced. I didn't say that the plumber should warranty the old pipe, but if the repair was made on poly pipe that was to code 30 years ago, I would expect the pipe to last as long as the manufacturer thinks that it would:

With the unique combination of flexibility and corrosion resistance, even conservative research shows that the life of a hdpe piping system is at least several hundred years when the pipe is properly selected and installed. http://www.uspolycompany.com/index.php?ID=57

The professional should have stated such to the owner rather than try to hood wink him into a more costly repair.

[Terry]

I commonly find cracked poly pipe on water services.
I replaced my entire poly line two years ago,
The neighbor two doors down did hers last month.

If you are lucky, you can dig right down to the cracked pipe and replace it.
There is no rhyme or reason to it.
I'm not an engineer, I'm just someone that works with it every day.
Been there done that, have you?

[Southern Man]

I commonly find installation mistakes as well.

[Terry]

I commonly find installation mistakes as well.


And plumbers find pipes that have cracked for no reason at all buried in sand with no rocks nearby.

Sometimes you will find roots that have grown near the pipes.
Now the root wasn't there when the ditch was dug, but after 10-30 years, the roots show up.

Sometimes I think the pipes can have bad spots in them.
We don't send them out for testing, we just cut out the bad section, and hope that the rest of the pipe is not like this.

Now there are miles and miles of pipe in the ground that is still working, but there will always be some that need replacement.

In a perfect world, you would never need a service plumber.
If you consider perfection materials that never break down over time and with usage.
There is a certain logic to decomposition, you see it in trees and leaves that turn into top soil.

I'm an avid skier, one Spring, both of my boots snapped in half, the ski store told me that after a number of years, the plastic boots would do that.
The material was only good for so many years. So in the trash they went, and I had to buy a new pair.

By the way, I notice that the Champion toilet uses plastic to divert water around the bowl, I wonder how long before that thin plastic starts to go bad and start cracking.

[Southern Man]

...
Sometimes I think the pipes can have bad spots in them.
We don't send them out for testing, we just cut out the bad section, and hope that the rest of the pipe is not like this. ....

I'm an avid skier, one Spring, both of my boots snapped in half, the ski store told me that after a number of years, the plastic boots would do that.
The material was only good for so many years. So in the trash they went, and I had to buy a new pair.

.....

Holidays are common in plastic materials that are otherwise consistent along large lengths. You are therefore correct to assume that an isolated repair would not affect the remainder of the system.

Three years ago my fiend Butch (please, no Bubba jokes) were skiing Whoopdedoo on Sugar Mountain near here. It is the only double black in the South. One of his boots failed and he was lucky to get to the bottom unhurt. The dummy stored his boots in his attic! I had a much older pair of Raichle boots from the 1970's that I had stored properly and were still structurally sound. In any event, we both bought new boots that weekend and have since learned the new skiing methods developed along with the shaped skis. In fact I've brought my NASTAR handicap down to 16 and have joined a second race league this year.

[Terry]

You are therefore correct to assume that an isolated repair would not affect the remainder of the system.



I don't assume that the rest of the pipe is good.
I don't assume that the repair changes the rest of the system, but it certainly does not give me fuzzy warm feelings about it either.
That is also why the repair plumber at the top of the thread would not guarantee the old pipe.

Most plumbers suggest complete pipe replacement unless you can quickly find the problem.

I used to do the double blacks with my brothers at Whistler when we were kids. My parents had a condo there.

[wraujr]

In our neighborhood they used the Blue Poly for about half the neighborhood and then switched back to copper tubing. There have been a few leaks in the 13 years since homes built and have usually occurred to homes where the pipe is surrounded by concrete. I.E. they poured floor slab right around pipe. The other case is pipe goes thru wall and is mortared in place. Both cases there is no give and pipe shears below floor or out side wall as ground shifts.

Local plumber offers service where blue poly is cut at both ends (trench at street connection) and then 1" copper tube is pulled thru blue poly. A cone shaped device precedes the copper to "spread open" the blue poly.

Going cost is 2000 (group buy) to 2500 depending on whether PRV is replaced. Both plumbers put in new "ball" shut-off valves.

[Terry]

Local plumber offers service where blue poly is cut at both ends (trench at street connection) and then 1" copper tube is pulled thru blue poly. A cone shaped device precedes the copper to "spread open" the blue poly.



That sounds like a great way to do it.
No diggin up the entire yard, I love it.

[Southern Man]

No sane person would warranty materials that he didn't install himself. Along with a smack upside the head their insurer would drop them. But I'd discuss the pros and cons with an owner before I suggested replacing the entire line.

I've only skied Western snow one week in my life and I've been skiing since I was 13. I did Keystone, A-Basin, and Breck. Each is only about 16 times larger than my home field. I must admit that I found skiing above tree line very intimidating due to the lack of perspective.

[titan77]

I did not mean to cause any issues about the job. I was just wondering what the cost to do this repair/replacement would be. Heck now I am wondering if I just should have had the service replaced?

Since the leak was found right under the front of the house right behind the hose clamp connection I figured, hell it's been there 30 years and it once that's fixed I hope that will be it. Seemed like the smart way to go instead of dropping another $2200 on top of the $800 repair to replace it. Oh well, it's water under the bridge.

Would you pros suggest I just leave things alone or replace it the service now?? I guess I should have done more research on this.

[Southern Man]

The life of the pipe is well beyond 30 years. It probably failed prematurely at the connection because of something at that particular point. This should have no bearing on the remainder of the system.

In other words, 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'.