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nhmaster
10-30-2008, 04:36 PM
Don't the fools at the state house and the fed realize that every time they either come up with a new tax or raise the business taxes we already pay that we have to raise our prices to cover the increase. Naturally then we pass the tax on to the customer. So do all businesses. When the taxes eventually get to the point where we can no longer sell our products or services then we pack up and move our businesses to Taiwan or Korea. All business taxes are regressive and punish the consumer. Businesses don't just take the hit and live with it. We pass the misery on. I think there should be absolutly no business taxes at all. It's unfair to the consumer to tax business. Imagine how much less a gallon of gas would be if there were no business taxes attached to it. Would businesses be awash in profit? No more so than they would be anyway. The market adjusts to need and what the consumer is willing to pay. competition drives prices. Taxes drive prices up.

Where's the harbor and that damn boat full of tea? :rolleyes:

Ladiesman271
10-30-2008, 04:47 PM
No taxes on business? What, Exxon Mobil should not pay taxes on a $15 billion profit for the past quater? If they should not pay, then who should?

http://www.thestreet.com/story/10445084/1/exxon-mobil-has-new-record-profit.html

By the way, no taxes on business means your personal income tax rate will go back to the old 90% rate for the high bracket. That includes S corporations!

Redwood
10-30-2008, 05:32 PM
No taxes on business? What, Exxon Mobil should not pay taxes on a $15 billion profit for the past quater? If they should not pay, then who should?

http://www.thestreet.com/story/10445084/1/exxon-mobil-has-new-record-profit.html

By the way, no taxes on business means your personal income tax rate will go back to the old 90% rate for the high bracket. That includes S corporations!

Oh no they get substidized! Check your facts!

nhmaster
10-30-2008, 07:40 PM
No taxes on business? What, Exxon Mobil should not pay taxes on a $15 billion profit for the past quater? If they should not pay, then who should?

http://www.thestreet.com/story/10445084/1/exxon-mobil-has-new-record-profit.html

By the way, no taxes on business means your personal income tax rate will go back to the old 90% rate for the high bracket. That includes S corporations!


You did not read and or understand. A tax on business is a tax YOU pay. If there were no business taxes, goods and services would be way way less expensive and the economy would be booming in a real way (not the wall street speculator way) and we would have a return of our industrial base that has been shipped overseas in the last 75 years. You can not continually punish capitalism and then expect your economy to be strong. You can directly trace the decline of Americas industrial base and the shipping of corporations and jobs overseas to the continuing rise in business rax rates. When the tax burden reaches the point where the company can no longer sell it's product at a competitive market price then they pack up and move to a more favorable environment. It is in vogue to blame the company and believe that they are only jumping ship in order to get cheap foreign labor. Though labor rates do indeed sweeten the deal, it is the grossly lower tax rates that are the real driving force behind their exodus. Do you really believe that if you raise Exxon Mobile's taxes that they will take it on the chin wighout raising gas and oil prices? To believe that is naive at best. Again, raise their taxes and YOU will pay the price.

Cookie
10-30-2008, 07:49 PM
You did not read and or understand. A tax on business is a tax YOU pay. If there were no business taxes, goods and services would be way way less expensive and the economy would be booming in a real way (not the wall street speculator way) and we would have a return of our industrial base that has been shipped overseas in the last 75 years. You can not continually punish capitalism and then expect your economy to be strong. You can directly trace the decline of Americas industrial base and the shipping of corporations and jobs overseas to the continuing rise in business rax rates. When the tax burden reaches the point where the company can no longer sell it's product at a competitive market price then they pack up and move to a more favorable environment. It is in vogue to blame the company and believe that they are only jumping ship in order to get cheap foreign labor. Though labor rates do indeed sweeten the deal, it is the grossly lower tax rates that are the real driving force behind their exodus. Do you really believe that if you raise Exxon Mobile's taxes that they will take it on the chin wighout raising gas and oil prices? To believe that is naive at best. Again, raise their taxes and YOU will pay the price.

Corporate greed will never go away even if business taxes would.

Redwood
10-30-2008, 08:09 PM
Corporate greed will never go away even if business taxes would.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2/Redwood39/smiley_with_thumbs_up.gif

You said it all Cookie...

Looks like we still have a firm believer in the "Trickle Down Theory of Economics" among us...

After 29 years of hearing that giving the wealthy breaks so they can get more wealth which they will then pass down to us worker bees...
All we have seen is they want more for less and they are more willing to walk over anyone to get it...

If you still believe that stuff you have got to have one of these things hanging off your lip!

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2/Redwood39/crack_pipe.jpg

Cookie
10-30-2008, 08:34 PM
Greed rules.
I think the average lifespan of an executive is -42. And, the lifespan of someone working for them, can be even worse.

maintenanceguy
10-31-2008, 12:55 AM
The govt. is not going to do without the tax revenue it's now getting from business. So it really doesn't matter much if they pick the pocket of business who in turn picks my pocket or if they just pick mine directly.

It's just easier for our government to tell the stupid public that they're not taxing them, they're taxing business.

Besides, there are a huge number of 9-5ers who resent the business owner that does better financially than they are doing. It doesn't matter that the business owner usually works twice the hours, takes more then twice the risk. They just want to see the business owner get "what's coming to him" so tax away.

nhmaster
10-31-2008, 02:41 AM
Please define for me "Corporate Greed" Are those of us running plumbing businesses greedy? How much profit should we be allowed to make? Is Exxon Mobile more greedy than a one man plumbing shop? Does it not stand to reason that companies driven by corporate greed will price their product out of reach? Why do we punish profit? Do you really want anyone putting a limit on your profit?

Cass
10-31-2008, 04:59 AM
Lets see I build and sell 10 expansion tanks a year.

I sell it with my profit included for $10.00 each so I make $100.00 / year.

The government assesses me a tax of $100.00/year.

I tack it on to my expansion tank sales so now my tank sells for $20.00/each. and gross sales are $200.00/year.

Ten home owners buy 1 tank each this year so I sell $200.00 worth.

I send $100.00 to the government and keep my $100.00.

Is this what your saying = taxing the people through taxing businesses?

Ladiesman271
10-31-2008, 05:04 AM
Please define for me "Corporate Greed" Are those of us running plumbing businesses greedy? How much profit should we be allowed to make? Is Exxon Mobile more greedy than a one man plumbing shop? Does it not stand to reason that companies driven by corporate greed will price their product out of reach? Why do we punish profit? Do you really want anyone putting a limit on your profit?



You would fit in well with the wall street crowd. AKA greed is good.

The way the wall street crowd thinks is that all profits should go to the risk taker. In the fine print notes, they forget to say that all losses will be paid for by the government (AKA the public).

This is known as free market socialism. Wait until you see your next retirement account statement!

hj
10-31-2008, 06:06 AM
How much money does the government "earn"? Absolutely ZERO, therefore its only income to fund social, welfare, and community development is from taxes. No taxes means no road work, no medicare, and no aid to the needy, (and I guess no bailout of the greedy ceos), regardless of how we feel about the needs of these programs. The problem is with the politicians who are more concerned with "pork" projects ifor the good of their states, or their reelection, than with using their tax income for the good of the entire nation. Thus needing more and more revenue to fund them. One candidate is boosting both increased social programs AND massive tax cuts, but I doubt if he is worried about how to accomplish that as long as the masses THINK it will benefit them.

jimbo
10-31-2008, 06:34 AM
Oil companies only work on less than 5% profit margin. Most business would fail trying to work on that small a margin. The upfront exploration and drilling costs in that business are huge, and so are the risks.

Now for the best part: If there is some "windfall" profits due to the ahabs jacking up the price of crude, where does that money go....( the part that does not go to the ahabs)? It goes out as dividends to people who are smart enough to own Exon stock. Like ME!!! So keep ponying $4 for gas....I love it!!!!!!!!!!

MACPLUMB 777
10-31-2008, 09:56 AM
BAR STOOL ECONOMICS

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100.

If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do. The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the</ SPAN> owner threw them a curve.

'Since you are all such good customers, he said, I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20.

Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his 'fair share?'

They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so:

The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.

'I only got a dollar out of the $20, 'declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man, 'but he got $10!'

'Yeah, that's right,' exclaimed the fifth man. 'I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got ten times more than I!'

'That's true!!' shouted the seventh man. 'Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!'*

'Wait a minute,' yelled the first four men in unison. 'We didn't get anything at all. The syst em exploits the poor!'

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.
Professor of Economics, University of Georgia

For those who understand, no explanation is needed.
For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.










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nhmaster
10-31-2008, 11:25 AM
I'm just glad I got everyone thinking. Maybe if we all did some deeper thinking then we would begin to take a much closer look at the people that we elect to do our thinking for us. I do not have a solution. If I did I would be either the richest or dead'est person on the planet. I do know that I, as a businessman pass along any and all taxes, fines and fees to my customer base. So when I hear about upping taxes on business I know and they know that what they are really talking about is taxing you. And then to make you feel a little better they give you a tax break that amounts to fas less than the hidden tax increase because they know that Joe Average will never do the math and even if the figures are flashing neon in front of his eyes, he's too apathetic to actually do anything about it. I don't mind paying my fair share for security and infrastructure. But I do mind paying for needless and mindless waste. And Washington is more than full of it.

Cookie
10-31-2008, 03:26 PM
Please define for me "Corporate Greed" Are those of us running plumbing businesses greedy? How much profit should we be allowed to make? Is Exxon Mobile more greedy than a one man plumbing shop? Does it not stand to reason that companies driven by corporate greed will price their product out of reach? Why do we punish profit? Do you really want anyone putting a limit on your profit?

I don't know, you tell me. What is greed to you? What is the difference between greed and a corporation greed? I can't answer if you are as a businessman, running your plumbing business or any business for that fact greedy. Are you? How much profit do you want to make? How do you want to make that profit? In what terms? Is Exxon more greedy than a one-man show? I can't answer that either, who is the one man? I don't punish profit, so how can you say, " we" punish profit? You can punish profit, but, you can't say we meaning, me. No one is putting a limit on how much profit you can make, it is on only HOW you make that profit. If you can understand greed, then you would understand that last sentence.

I hope I answered your questions to the best of my ablility.

nhmaster
10-31-2008, 05:07 PM
First off Cookie, I didn't mean you. I was talking metaphorically. On to how much profit do I want to make? As much as the traffic will bare.

Mac Plumb that piece is absolutly brilliant. Indeed if you don't understand it you probably never will.

Furd
10-31-2008, 05:19 PM
In principle, I agree with nh. It truly is the end consumer that really pays all the taxes. But in many cases the consumer can reduce, if not avoid, taxes simply by not buying the goods or services offered by any particular seller.

Cookie
10-31-2008, 05:25 PM
First off Cookie, I didn't mean you. I was talking metaphorically. On to how much profit do I want to make? As much as the traffic will bare.

Mac Plumb that piece is absolutly brilliant. Indeed if you don't understand it you probably never will.

I didn't think you did, but when you generalize that is the way it looks to others. You got to realize that. I was setting an example for you by which to learn. I am quoting you when you said, " you are glad you got everyone thinking and thinking to deeper levels" I am just enlightening on using generalizations. To go deeper you would have to start to use statistics, and collect data from research. You would need to delve deeper into philosophical reasonings. This may not be brillant, infact, it is just first year material.

Cookie
10-31-2008, 05:27 PM
In principle, I agree with nh. It truly is the end consumer that really pays all the taxes. But in many cases the consumer can reduce, if not avoid, taxes simply by not buying the goods or services offered by any particular seller.

Yep, they could always replace their own gas lines and boilers. *Grumpy, are you reading this, jump in and say something!" You are boiler king!

Just for your knowledge:

Metaphorical Generalisation
The use of metaphor is a dynamic phenomenon which enables us to generate new meanings from old. This process can be illustrated with the phenomenon of metaphorical generalisation. The view that metaphor is a principal avenue by which language progresses is based on the perfectly reasonable assumptions that language has to start somehow, and its initial concerns would have been with items in a speaker's immediate vicinity. A plausible origin myth is that the most primitive linguistic resources provided rudimentary verbal representations for solid sensible objects and for animal and (especially) human activities (Stanford 1936). Initially the resources of natural language would presumably have been fairly parsimonious. A problem is: how could the primitive linguistic resources, grounded in representations for sensible objects and expressions for basic activities, be extended to embrace the higher reaches of abstract thought that we now articulate through the rich resources of natural language? A fundamental mechanism for extending and refining language is metaphor.

Consider the verb 'run'. In its simplest and most basic sense it designates a human (and animal) activity. But through metaphorical extension it comes to be applied to objects which lie outside its basic reference class, such as rivers. The term began with a more limited scope or extension, and when talk first arose of rivers running it must have sounded bizarre. It might well have been objected, when the metaphor was green and fresh, that rivers cannot run: they have no legs. This is a banal example of so-called frozen (or dead) metaphor. Once metaphor freezes (or dies) it becomes an ordinary part of our literal vocabulary. So it comes about that rivers run, taps run and fences run, and they 'run' in a way which has generalised the meaning of this expression.

When we speak of fences 'running' around a boundary, for example, there is no suggestion of motion. The metaphor has generated a static sense of 'running'. Running has acquired the sense of following a path. That has amplified one aspect of the original idea of running, and suppressed other elements. Running is a simple activity which involves putting one leg in front of the other in a certain systematic, sequential and rhythmic fashion. It is a basic activity, but one nevertheless with complicated aspects, and by abstracting certain elements of the activity we are able to produce a generalisation of the basic sense of the word.

Metaphorical extension in this way, starting from the modest beginnings of describing macroscopic objects and simple activities, forges and reshapes concepts and thereby modifies language so that it comes to embrace an ever wider and more complicated repertoire of referents and activities. This process or generalisation and abstraction is a plausible explanation of how it is that we are able to start off with a decidedly limited or restricted set of verbal resources and extend them further, and reshape and refine them, to cope with the ever more complicated world which these very resources help us to create.


Semantic Depth
Metaphor, then, is not an alternative way of expressing common sense but a common way of achieving new sense. But how does metaphor change meaning? And why is the process problematic? A basic puzzle is that metaphors are typically literally false. Yet clearly there is some sense in which they are not only not false, but can provide very valuable insights. But how can a sentence provide important insights if it is false? Evidently there must be some internal or underlying complexity which will explain this.

Expressions surely must have a deep as well as a surface level. It is at the surface level that we recognize the falsehood of the metaphor. Consider the example (taken from Searle 1979) 'Richard is a gorilla'. We apprehend immediately that this sentence is not literally true. Indeed if Kripke (1980) is right about the meaning of natural kind expressions, not only is Richard not a gorilla, he is necessarily not a gorilla. How can a necessarily false statement provide us with an interesting and possibly useful insight?

The answer presumably is that the words have more complex structure than a naive Fregean account might lead us to believe, and this structure is revealed by the possibility of metaphorical use. Expressions may have a primary sense and a primary reference, but metaphorical use is able to activate secondary sense, and thereby generate a new extension for the expression. These subsidiary ideas and associations show that in addition to a primary sense and reference there is also a penumbra of additional associations or meanings. When the literal meaning is deactivated, because of the falsehood of the sentence, a switching happens and the secondary meanings latent in the penumbra are activated.

It will have been noted that I have been producing a steady stream of metaphors in the process of explicating metaphor. There is nothing viciously circular or objectionable in this procedure. In the case of metaphor, explication need not involve elimination.

The penumbra of associated secondary meanings is extremely interesting. Suppose that Mabel is a gorilla in the local zoo. When we say that Mabel is a gorilla, the associated meanings do not intrude at all. But when we apply the description to the man Richard, something interesting happens. As soon as we apprehend that the description is literally false, which usually happens immediately and unconsciously, the expression becomes semantically charged with secondary meanings latent in the associated semantic penumbra. Metaphors work typically by activating these subsystems of associations described by Black (1962), as a 'system of associated commonplaces', and by Mill (1875: Book I, Ch. 2, 5) as 'connotations'.

Another interesting fact is that the associated commonplaces are often not literally true of the objects from which they are derived. To describe someone as a gorilla might be to suggest that they are large, clumsy, hairy, and perhaps unpleasantly fierce or aggressive. That is one possible interpretation of this metaphorical description. But, thanks to ethologists such as Dian Fossey (1985), we know that gorillas in fact are quite gentle creatures, and by no means clumsy. What is important for the effectiveness of the metaphor is not what is true about gorillas, but rather the associated conceptions, or misconceptions, about gorillas.

These commonplaces or associations have a habit of hanging around, even after the literal meaning has changed. To be in a political wilderness is not to be in a pristine, unspoiled place of great natural beauty. Even a person who knows what gorillas are really like, may use and understand that word metaphorically in a way which respects not the actual characteristics of gorillas, but the common prejudices that are associated with them.

There are, in short, commonplaces or connotations associated with a large number of expressions, and this constellation of associated ideas provides the semantic charge which explodes when the expression is used metaphorically.

Gary Slusser
10-31-2008, 11:27 PM
Just a few facts.

The corporate tax rate in the US is the second highest in the world. Most countries with growing economies have a tax rate of 11% or slightly more while ours is 30%+. And more'n more of us call for higher rates and then wonder why companies move off shore, or go broke.

US history shows that every time taxes on business and/or the population have been reduced, the US Treasury receipts increase substantially, the unemployment rates fall and the stock market rises and the standard of living for most Americans rises because many new jobs are created.

The city dwellers in America have been voting for one tax raising political party for 5-6 decades and are still poor out of work souls with gangs and crime and drug invested neighborhoods where they live with Pitbulls behind bared windows and doors inside fences all around their houses while their kids are jailed repeatedly or killed because there are NO new jobs ad old jobs are constantly being lost because the city fathers are anti business and constantly raising taxes and making it harder for anyone to start a business in their cities.

The oil industry operates at a 5-7% of sales which is about half of what a grocery store and the vast majority of other industries get.

In the last 3 weeks I bought gas at a station in CO that had the Federal, State and County taxes per gallon on the pumps. The total was some 60some cents per gallon; regardless the price per gallon.

Exxon's $38+ billion 3rd quarter profit is mentioned but, not the 32 million 3rd quarter taxes they paid. Or the oil industry's 2007 R&D etc. expenditure of IIRC 1.2 TRILLION dollars.

We should be damned glad we have the oil industry, without oil we would not have all the products that are made out of a barrel of oil that ranges from fuel for all our various vehicles to fabrics, plastics asphalt for roads and parking lots, lubricants of all kinds for all the machines we have and fuel for many electrical power plants etc. etc.etc. etc..

The people that go on about the price of oil should be very glad they live in the USA where the oil industry was born and so should those that go on about oil company or other "corporate greed". Most have never managed or owned any type of business and are very uninformed while they mimic the rhetoric of a certain bunch of politicians that tax reducing JFK would be embarrassed by. He also was not for the population becoming dependent on government as we have become today.

Cookie
11-01-2008, 02:57 AM
Just a few facts.

The people that go on about the price of oil should be very glad they live in the USA where the oil industry was born and so should those that go on about oil company or other "corporate greed". Most have never managed or owned any type of business and are very uninformed while they mimic the rhetoric of a certain bunch of politicians that tax reducing JFK would be embarrassed by. He also was not for the population becoming dependent on government as we have become today.

I wonder how you really ever experienced "corporate greed". I wonder what it really cost you. I can tell you what it cost me, but you might not like to hear it. http://www.hollandsentinel.com/opinions/x2031260627/LETTER-Medical-system-is-motivated-by-greed

Most people get real turned off when I mentioned my ...ahem, small health problem. Most people want me to sweep it under the rug which adds to the problem but, those who are healthy, those who have never experienced more than a pimple on their ass just don't get it. That's when I talk about my illness, listen, pay attention, stand up, put yer ears on, I have something to say which just might effect you someday, when that someday comes, which it will, because no one gets out of this alive. We all will die, become fish bait. Don't tell me to move on, get over it, or say, "aren't you glad it worked out for you?" Or, " gee, you didn't lose your hair." YEAH, only my mind. I spent almost 5 years on chemo. What did I learn sitting in that pink chair? Lots.

Corporate greed in the medical field is HUGE. Ok, know what it cost me? In cash? Should I tell you? You might not want to hear because it might cause you to think and thinking sometimes is not a good thing, for some folks. It is easier to put your head in the sand and pretend. Ah, I wish I could pretend... I wish I could be one of the elite.

Medical care if very expensive, you are not safe with insurance. Don't make that mistake. If you got 100,000 in a bank somewhere and your school of thought is, wow! I am going to retire on that, take a cruise when I retire, well, you might have to spend it on scans, tests, chemo, surgeries, shots, ( not just whiskey either) and who do you have to thank for this? Corporate Greed. If you put one million aside to retire on, pray you don't get cancer, for it won't be enough.

I have a business. I wear many hats, I have to. How I make my money is which determines if I am a corporate greedy person. Now, do you think I am? Or, since, I know what it feels like... I give the next person a fair break. Sadly, it isn't until, you walked in those uncomfortable shoes you know, you realize, you understand, what it feels like. Until, then, you are brain dead. Take for instance, the Kennedy fighting brain cancer, wow, he is rehabbing the medical insurance thingee... why now? Why didn't he do it 10 years ago? This is a common occurrence, until, now, he didn't hear " US" Us, being people like me, now...him... how sad, that is what it takes for people to wake up. I hope it isn't too late for him.

We got a woman now, who will take a stand for Autism, gee that is nice, I worked with autistic kids for years, but, it took her having one to do something about the cause. Eh.

So, you go to the gas pumps, and you bitch about 4 bucks a gallon, well, that is a drop in the bucket to what I pay to live. To wake up each morning to what most bastards take for granted.

I am going to go eat my icecream, it cost me, 3.99 on sale. Corporate Greed is here to stay and if you don't harp about it, it ain't goin to go away folks. Just like cancer, you can't ignore it, it just grows and grows and grows. You want a better life? Fight for it.

Buy a lottery ticket.

nhmaster
11-01-2008, 03:58 AM
Ok, back to flat rate vs time & material :D

Cass
11-01-2008, 04:14 AM
I wonder if any one could figure what they pay...exactly...just for 1 year in taxes...so may are hidden in the goods and services that we use I don't think it would be possible for any one to compute...

Cookie
11-01-2008, 06:45 AM
Ok, back to flat rate vs time & material :D

That is a novel idea. :D It won't include fines right?

Cookie
11-01-2008, 06:55 AM
I'm just glad I got everyone thinking. I do know that I, as a businessman pass along any and all taxes, fines and fees to my customer base. But I do mind paying for needless and mindless waste.

I think customers would consider paying your fines a waste to them. In those instances a flat-rate makes more sense.

nhmaster
11-01-2008, 07:56 AM
Even flat rate incorporates these expenses into the bottom line. There is NO SUCH THING as corporate greed. It is a term made up by those that do not understand or want to understand capitalism. Greedy corporations go out of business. When profit exceeds value, customes either stop buying or go elswere. This is why, when the corporate taxes get to the point where the company can no longer offer goods and services at a competitive rate, the pack up am move overseas. The moves gives them the advantage of being able to hold product cost within competitive limits and still pay the stockholders. Show me any large corporation who's net profit is grossly outside of normal earnings and I'll show you a company heading for failure. Exxon-Mobile gets this crap press all the time, yet their net it 5%. Well within normal business practice. in fact my company could not operate at a net that low. Yet because they sell a crap load of product their earnings are spectacular. Isn't that what capitalism is all about? Isn't that one of the principals this nation was founded on? And Huge corporations like this employ thousands of people and pay huge amounts in stock dividends. Sorry, I just can't agree with Marxist, socialist policy. It has never worked in the past and it will not work in the future. Even the psuedo communist nation of China has finally figured out that capitalism is far superior to socialism. Sit back and watch as they bury the economies of the world it we don't keep up.

Cookie
11-01-2008, 08:41 AM
Even flat rate incorporates these expenses into the bottom line. There is NO SUCH THING as corporate greed. It is a term made up by those that do not understand or want to understand capitalism. Greedy corporations go out of business. When profit exceeds value, customes either stop buying or go elswere. This is why, when the corporate taxes get to the point where the company can no longer offer goods and services at a competitive rate, the pack up am move overseas. The moves gives them the advantage of being able to hold product cost within competitive limits and still pay the stockholders. Show me any large corporation who's net profit is grossly outside of normal earnings and I'll show you a company heading for failure. Exxon-Mobile gets this crap press all the time, yet their net it 5%. Well within normal business practice. in fact my company could not operate at a net that low. Yet because they sell a crap load of product their earnings are spectacular. Isn't that what capitalism is all about? Isn't that one of the principals this nation was founded on? And Huge corporations like this employ thousands of people and pay huge amounts in stock dividends. Sorry, I just can't agree with Marxist, socialist policy. It has never worked in the past and it will not work in the future. Even the psuedo communist nation of China has finally figured out that capitalism is far superior to socialism. Sit back and watch as they bury the economies of the world it we don't keep up.


What is your degree in? Where did you study? You paid too much.
There certainly is corporate greed. Always was, always will be, as long as humans walk upright. IF their was a nuclear war greed as an entity in itself, would outlive the dreaded cockroaches. It is the nature of the beast to want more and more and more, supersize everything, our stomachs, our lives and our bank accounts. How we do it is what determines greed.

Do you believe in God? Or do you think we hatched from under a leaf in a pumpkin patch field? If you believe in God, then, you realize the bible talks extensively about greed. I hardly, consider God a Marxist.


Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life. (NIV, 1 Timothy 6:17-19)

Myself, I believe in God and follow his word to the best of my ability. I have in many ways devoted my life in doing good in his name, but I judge no other man if they choose different.


In Jesus' time it was a common belief that wealth was a sign of God's favor and poverty was God's punishment for sin. Jesus flatly rejected that idea most clearly in the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31 (http://javascript<b></b>:quote('Luke_16_19_31'))). The rich man ended up in hell at least partly because of his hard-heartedness toward the beggar Lazarus. His great wealth was obviously not a sign of God's favor. The beggar Lazarus ended up in heaven although he was about as impoverished as a man could be. His poverty was obviously not a sign of sinfulness or folly. Despite the Bible's many warnings against it, the idea that wealth is a sign of God's favor and that the poor have done something to deserve their condition persists as an undercurrent today that is sometimes used to justify callous economic and social policies.

http://www.twopaths.com/faq_money.htm

Redwood
11-01-2008, 10:34 AM
Corporate Greed Examples...
Hmmmm
Walmart?
Plumbing companies with rooter in their name?
Enron?
Automated Waste Disposal?
Colonial Realty?

It's a good start!

nhmaster
11-01-2008, 10:39 AM
It's a horrible start. Show me the numbers.

Just because you say so don't make it so. Show me the numbers. What are their gross and net's. What do the dividends look like. I need more than names. I need proof.

I'll give you a few days. It's going to take some time. By the way though, I'd pass on Wally World. though they are a very large corporation indeed, their numbers a way within the accepted range and they are responsible for the livings of tens of thousands of people either directly or indirectly.

nhmaster
11-01-2008, 10:40 AM
Wooops. Enron is great though. Here is an example of corporate greed that eventually was the downfall of the corporation. They are out of business, proving my point.

Cookie
11-01-2008, 11:08 AM
It's a horrible start. Show me the numbers.

Just because you say so don't make it so. Show me the numbers. What are their gross and net's. What do the dividends look like. I need more than names. I need proof.

I'll give you a few days. It's going to take some time. By the way though, I'd pass on Wally World. though they are a very large corporation indeed, their numbers a way within the accepted range and they are responsible for the livings of tens of thousands of people either directly or indirectly.

The numbers could fall out of the sky hitting you in the head and it wouldn't mean a thing. So why bother? You started this thread with good intentions, but only if the intentions were serving to you, which is fine by me, but, a conversation or discussion is both ways. I am never too old to learn most people aren't.

Redwood
11-01-2008, 11:21 AM
Me thinkest thou are speaking through the seat of your pants.... PFFFFFT!

Enron as we all know was the ultimate in corporate greed...

Colonial Realty was a $2 B real estate company in Connecticut that was out selling investments in the company the day the news hit that they were bankrupt... They even had Arthur Andersen swearing the finances were in great shape... http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C07EEDC153EF933A25757C0A9629582 60

Automated Waste Disposal... Formerly owned by James Galante Mob owned trash hauling business... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Galante

I'll send a rooter plumber to your house to take care of your plumbing problem... I'm sure you'll go for the deal the commision plumber offers you!

Walmart??? No there is no corporate greed there...
http://wakeupwalmart.com/

Dunbar Plumbing
11-01-2008, 12:45 PM
Corporate greed lies heavily in these STUPID associations like cystic fibrosis, cancer foundations, kidney foundations, liver foundations, all these "foundations" set up as non-profit entities so they can act like a damn church avoiding the paying of taxes.


Now, think about those in the victim side of those equations. Your health insurance still is going to find a way not to pay for things. And are those entities going to fit the mold and take care of everything for you when you're dying? NO.

Will they comfort you in some way, send you pamphlets and make you jump through a bunch of hoops? Of course.

My mother fought cancer for 13 years and guess what, she died and the breast cancer foundation did little or nothing to help with that. Where did those donations go?


Why do I walk in stores and see breast cancer awareness pink bottles? BUSINESS, GREED, CORPORATE GREED that sits inside nestled in the good for all thinking that we are helping others die slowly. Get into the inner workings of these foundations and you'll see expenditures just as victimizing as exxon mobile, that's a fact.


All these marathons? Where does 80% of the money run to? ALL to the MACHINE with is the advertising wheel to get you to keep spending money in charity thinking because

It's
Tax
Deductible

So what?!!!

Then they throw a cover story saying "it's for the continued money asking for development and studies, ya know, those studies that you sign your life away at the door because you are being tested like a lab rat and they certainly won't be held accountable if you start pissing green or your eyes glow at night.


Cancer and all the associations around it is the biggest money making mogul out there because if I can sit on my toilet and talk to somebody in Hong Kong, or Pakistan to some idiot trying to fix my computer, they can fix/cure/stop cancer...but they won't.


Why build a tire on a car that lasts forever? That costs jobs.
Why build a water heater that last 50 years? That costs jobs.


Why fix a disease that will destroy the main frames of ECONOMIC GREED that you find a cure, everybody is fixed! Here, take this and we'll get you more life, medical free!


Here's the basis of the rant above:


When I was a nobody, just a simple minded employee plumber, I never heard from the associations above.

NOW, that I'm a multiple business owner that works off of a base of more than a simple median base income, these associations, charities, foundations come out of the ****ing woodwork looking for handouts.


They splash my emails with colorful and prominent information and well documented growth patterns showing their spending habits,


They litter my effing mailboxes with some of the fanciest, EXPENSIVE direct mail advertising that I in no way in hell can I afford. This stuff costs HUGE to make, distribute, give to others.

BIG MONEY.

Now, here's where a simple $50 charitable contribution to Cystic Fibrosis landed me and one simple response to an email:


Emails from 25 extensions that all related back to the foundation, blocking one wasn't going to work as they sold my email address to everyone.


I PROMISE I have received well over $50 worth of advertising to my office with advertising products that are so expensive that my companies will never afford.


Stuff I literally have to throw away because its purpose is to feed feed feed back into the personal mindset that you're doing "for the good of the less fortunate" and that

"you have an obligation as a business to do so" .....nevermind ignoring me all those years before.



So, I give $50 and you spend over $50 in waste to make sure I donate again? The only reason I stopped the madness is because like a dispute on a credit card bill, I had to call and asked to be taken off, I blocked emails, I refused to spend money again knowing what and how I was exploited.


And don't worry, they put you on a ticker; they track you and your information and when that ticker shows after so many months that you haven't contributed, the mailings stop by DEFAULT.


This is a call out for those of you who "do for the better of mankind" thinking that contributing to these associations are a betterment to society and likewise...to yourself someday thinking you might be afflicted? maybe a family member?



You see or hear of someone dying, affected by situations that these diseases create........give DIRECTLY to that person in need, not an infomercial on tv showing the sad faces and bald heads that come with someone dying. There's two kinds of dignity in this world and one of them chooses to dominate in where the handout is coming from. Big business, CORPORATE GREED thrives inside these MEDICAL FOUNDATIONS promising you comfort and new cures. What is missing is that doctors are the think tanks...not those outside the globe with snow in it that you can shake and change what it looks like.


The focus of these groups are to tug at your heart strings and feel sorry for the less fortunate, I should worry about children dying 12,000 miles away, keep sally struthers from eating them as a snack? Please. There's so many problems right in my own damn back yard to say that we need to concentrate on the here and now, not some "machine" that follows the good vibes of traditional "we help all" sick ironies that make us believe that every dollar you contribute is every dollar to that in need.


Try less than 20%....and that's being excessive at best. You're giving into big business, and you're the fool for thinking that people CAN'T do for themselves and help others in that mindset of having to rely on huge outfits with fancy advertising are the only ones that can provide for these sicknesses and diseases.


I hope I piss the whole world off with my statements, better yet, I hope someday I die from one of these diseases because that's where the dignity comes into play. Those of you who donate freely would expect a return given your good deeds, or at least a helpfulness in helping you in your situation. That's going to be your day of reckoning, realizing that you are a name and a number in the big pattern of life and for the majority, better off dead than alive depending on what value is placed on your noggin.

If you really want to help others in need while being sick or diseased, contribute directly to the cause, remove these billion dollar companies that thrive on your soul to care to a stranger by a 16 digit credit card number and a thoughtful thank you smile on the letter or email you basically paid for.


Nothing that the breast cancer foundation did was there to save my mother, or even provide anything in relation to the situation at hand.


The Hope and Wellness Center however was a great comfort to my mother in all those years struggling, and they were not the vultures that hover over the near dying carcass looking for more and more of what your heart desires.


Nobody is willing to admit the above because it's the "how dare you" thinking. I will.....and I know a lot of it to be true by many others who won't be a voice to the reality that it does exist, corporate greed.


The line between these affiliations of following the medical game beds one with another with the hospitals/doctors.


Ever saw how much money a hospital makes? CORPORATE GREED


I've been charged $80 for a pack of Q-tips before. $30 for soap.


I'm just warming up...

Redwood
11-01-2008, 01:38 PM
I hear ya Rugged!

Look at the biggest of the big charities...
Can you say the American Red Cross...

Red Cross CEO Marsha Evans
Drew a Paycheck of $651,957 (FY ending 06/30/03)

When 9/11 brought in the dough for them they caught a bunch of flack about holding onto the dough and not distributing it to those in need...
They were hard at work fixing up offices and getting new computers...

I recall a friend when I was in the service whose father died. he needed money to fly home for the funeral, The Red Cross "loaned" him the money he had to pay it back....



I'll tell you the one charity that I give money to...
The Salvation Army!
Their CEO takes a Salary of less than $20K a year!
They show up at disasters and serve food to the relief and emergency services workers.

9/11 Terrorist Attacks: September 11, 2001:
The Salvation Army was the first relief agency to reach Ground Zero, reporting within a half-hour following the first plane crash at the World Trade Center site. With its mobile canteens, counselors and thousands of volunteers, The Salvation Army served relief workers at the WTC site for over 9 months; leaving only when operations at Ground Zero officially concluded in May, 2002. In the course of the relief effort, dubbed "Operation Compassion Under Fire", The Salvation Army was granted full control of the feeding operation at Ground Zero and also distributed other essential items to relief workers. Perhaps most importantly, Salvation Army counselors provided emotional and spiritual support to rescue and recovery workers working under incredibly difficult conditions.

3.2 million meals served
39,000 TSA officers, volunteers and staff provided assistance
1 million volunteer hours provided
$90 million donated

Hurricane Katrina: August 29, 2005:
Hurricane Katrina made landfall on the Gulf Coast of the United States as a strong Category 3 storm on August 29, 2005. The storm proved to be one of the costliest and most deadly in U.S. history. Huge sections of coastline in Alabama, Louisiana and Mississippi were utterly devastated and approximately 1,600 individuals died as a result of the storm. The Salvation Army responded to the immediate needs of survivors following Katrina and other storms during the unusually active 2005 hurricane season. The Army continues to serve individuals and families affected by Katrina by coordinating long-term clean-up and restoration efforts, providing financial and social service support to hurricane survivors and offering spiritual and emotional care to those impacted by the disaster.

5.6 million meals served
2.5 million people assisted
$382 million donated

When I was a kid they even sent me to summer camp. I was one of six kids, dad was a low paid cop... A few of my brothers and sisters also went...

http://www.use.salvationarmy.org/images/use.www_use_sne/24baea76ce6b84cb85256ef9006739b1_Body_0_39e8.gif

What has the Red Cross done for you besides cash your check?

This upcoming holiday season think about dropping some $$$ in the red Kettle...
You'll get some bang for your buck!

http://www.use.salvationarmy.org/images/use.www_use_sne/online_redkettlesm.jpg Put some $ in the kettle! (http://www.salvationarmyusa.org/usn/www_usn_2.nsf/vw-text-dynamic-arrays/251F59D756CFC754802573250030B4A9?openDocument)

nhmaster
11-01-2008, 03:31 PM
Me thinkest thou are speaking through the seat of your pants.... PFFFFFT!

Enron as we all know was the ultimate in corporate greed...

Colonial Realty was a $2 B real estate company in Connecticut that was out selling investments in the company the day the news hit that they were bankrupt... They even had Arthur Andersen swearing the finances were in great shape... http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C07EEDC153EF933A25757C0A9629582 60

Automated Waste Disposal... Formerly owned by James Galante Mob owned trash hauling business... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Galante

I'll send a rooter plumber to your house to take care of your plumbing problem... I'm sure you'll go for the deal the commision plumber offers you!

Walmart??? No there is no corporate greed there...
http://wakeupwalmart.com/

Most of these examples prove my point. Corporate greed always leads to the downfall of the company as it should.
Wal-Mart's business model is the envy of the world.
As for the Rooter companies, if their pricing and greed reach the point where the consumer is no longer willing to use their services they will fail also. The free market system does a very good job of weeding out the weak and the greedy all by itself without the help of government.
Again. find me a profitable company, that has been in business for 10 years or more and then prove their greed.

Dunbar Plumbing
11-01-2008, 09:19 PM
Misrepresentation and Churches and...Taxation (lack of)



How to avoid paying into a tax system by simply using the word GOD:


It's great to be a believer in god. Those who don't, shouldn't. You shouldn't be brainwashed to believe in something you don't feel is right.


But those of you who do, consider this:


The church you go to...is it a church like any other church, small and old, suits its purpose, keeps you dry when you're praying. Has a small group of people coming together and in unity, pray.


Or do you belong to a church where everything you see is turned to gold, marble floors, marble columns, 74 foot ceilings, more stained glass than 100 churches, and they are constantly building more and more and more and more onto to the church because they can, with your money and your donations.

Corporate greed and churches, one in the same. Do you really think god cares if you walk on dirt or walk on marble to sit in the house of god and pray? Of course not. He isn't materialistic like a lot of churches are.

I like to compare churches to fire trucks. Every community has both, every fire company wants a bigger and better fire truck than the other community. All that a fire truck really needs to do is put out a fire, not be a 900 thousand dollar fancy machine to show off at parades. Back to the churches.

When you don't have to worry about taxation, you bring misrepresentation to the community when you spend millions on churches with extravagant and posh structures with the sole intention of being "better" than the community down the road. You've now taken what the bible has asked for *10% of your weekly earnings by most* and consider it god's will. We're not supposed to ask where this money is going, we're just supposed to give it and let the powers that be take care of the rest.

When you don't have to be taxed, you can do lots of things with money, lots of things. You can take money and do whatever you like with it, justify it all in god's name because hey, I'm a church and I have followers who pay me to spread the word. Wanna be radical? Come join us at the Church of Scientology! Are you wealthy? You're money *10%* has a place right here at our church sitting on our 12 million dollar campus! We even created a milllion dollar day care center for you "working" millionaires that need some kind assistance during the day right here where you worship.

Churches are huge tax exempt shelters. They were once considered sacred and served a primary purpose, to bring those who believe in the word of god some shelter to sit and pray and believe. Now, they are the kingdom enterprise to televangelists, power and wealth hungry select few who take your money as tax free charitable contributions in trade for a mass produced bible to say you got something for your money.

When I watched a Billy Graham show one night, inspired by his voice and thinking, I saw that he offered a free publication. I called and asked for it, as the tv said it was free.


What I didn't realize in the wording of "free" ...was I didn't know for 2 years that I would be hustled for donations by mail, constantly afterwards. I was now obligated to donate for something I received for free. I don't understand why participating in something for free should I now be encouraged to donate/contribute/spend money all of a sudden.


That's a false meaning of "free" as it was a bait and switch tactic. I'll never take anything away from Billy Graham as false or wrong, he's a great individual and very inspiring (getting my drift yet?)and he's been a great person to the religious world.

God doesn't care where you worship, god doesn't care if you pray from a box.

God doesn't believe in massive riches are the way to a better life, OR a better representation of his following with the people inside of those communities.

In god's eyes, we are all equal, our clothes are put on the same way. In the end, riches and wealth are left behind, nothing is taken with us.


I could start a church tomorrow, get my credentials online and become a preacher and instantly become tax exempt spouting the religious sayings and asking for money. Perfectly legal and don't have to worry about getting audited, no taxes to pay. All in the name of god. Remember what the legal tender says on the note:



"In God we Trust"



I pay taxes and don't misrepresent myself in the eyes of God when I pray anywhere I decide to, without having to give a third party money as a charitable contribution because someone somewhere said 10% was the given rule in the bible. You want gold chalices and gold laced marble staircases? I want to protect my belief that god doesn't act materialistic and avoids paying taxes because they can.


Think about that when you drive to church tomorrow morning and wonder where all that tax free money is going, and why so much is needed to purport another addition or large multi-million dollar addition, "because our family is growing" ****-eating grin on their faces justifying it like a second drink at a bar. Pathetic.

Cookie
11-02-2008, 05:09 AM
Gary, I am going to delete both our posts here just so you know. I refuse to argue with you. I hope you understand.

master plumber mark
11-02-2008, 07:17 AM
The web site listed takes you to the Wachovia Bank... It is a matter of public record what has been said..




THIS WILL CHANGE YOUR RETIREMENT


For those among you who have more money than you will ever need, save your
time and delete this email.

For the rest of us who are still working with mortgages, children and grandchildren

or retired living on a pension and or Social Security perhaps you will take a couple



of minutes to read the proposed changes in the American tax system.

Sharing this email with others can make a difference on November 4, 2008;


for our citizens and our country.

INTERESTING DATA JUST RECEIVED ON TAXES

This is something you should be aware of so you don't get blind-sided.

This is really going to catch a lot of families off guard.

It should make you worry.

Proposed changes in taxes after 2008 General election:


CAPITAL GAINS TAX
MCCAIN
0% on home sales up to $500,000 per home (couples) McCain does not propose
any change in existing home sales income tax.

OBAMA
28% on profit from ALL home sales

How does this affect you? If you sell your home and make a profit, you will
pay 28% of your gain on taxes. If you are heading toward retirement and
would like to down-size your home or move into a retirement community, 28%of the money you make from your home will go to taxes. This proposal will
adversely affect the elderly who are counting on the income from their homes< BR>as part of their retirement income.


DIVIDEND TAX
MCCAIN 15% (no change)

OBAMA 39.6%

How will this affect you? If you have any money invested in stock market,
IRA, mutual funds, college funds, life insurance, retirement accounts, or
anything that pays or reinvests dividends, you will now be paying nearly 40%
of the money earned on taxes if Obama become president. The experts predict
that higher tax rates on dividends and capital gains would crash the stock
market yet do absolutely nothing to cut the deficit.


INCOME TAX

MCCAIN (no changes)

Single making 30K - tax $4,500
Single making 50K - tax $12,500
Single making 75K - tax $18,750
Married making 60K- tax $9,000
Married making 75K - tax $18,750
Married making 125K - tax $31,250

OBAMA
(Reversion to pre-Bush tax cuts)
Single making 30K - tax $8,400
Single making 50K - tax $14,000
Single making 75K - tax $23,250
Married making 60K - tax $16,800
Married making 75K - tax $21,000
Married making 125K - tax $38,750

Under Obama your taxes will more than double! How does this affect you?




No explanation needed. This is pretty straight forward.


INHERITANCE TAX
MCCAIN 0% (No change, Bush repealed this tax)

OBAMA Restore the inheritance tax

How does this affect you? Many families have lost businesses, farms and
ranches, and homes that have been in their families for generations because
they could not afford the inheritance tax. Those willing their assets to
loved ones will not only lose them to these taxes.


NEW TAXES BEING PROPOSED BY OBAMA

* New government taxes proposed on homes that are more than 2400 square feet

* New gasoline taxes (a s if gas weren't high enough already)

* New taxes on natural resources consumption (heating gas, water, electricity)

* New taxes on retirement accounts and last but not least....

* New taxes to pay for socialized medicine so we can receive the same level
of medical care as other third-world countries!!!


Thank You

Robert D. Jenkins
Vice President - Investments
Chartered Retirement Planning Counselor
Wachovia Securities, LLC
314-991-7812
800-999-4448 toll-free
robert.jenkins@wachoviaseccom
www.home.wachoviasecurities.com/robert.jenkins (http://www.home.wachoviasecurities.com/robert.jenkins)

Gary Slusser
11-02-2008, 11:05 AM
Are we in for a constitutional crisis?

http://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/pennsylvania/paedce/2:2008cv04083/281573/13/

Gary Slusser
11-02-2008, 12:27 PM
I heard of it in August when it was filed and then nothing until this week.

I have heard of all the problems he has with his birth certificate and half his family in Kenya saying he was born there and some others saying it was at both hospitals in HI. I've heard about his web site putting up and within 2-3 days pulling what was considered a fake copy of a birth certificate from HI.

And then his visit last week to HI to visit his white grandmother when it was reported a few days later that the (democrat) Governor sealed his record or file.

If he wins this election this is a serious constitutional problem. And if he were made to step down, I can imagine the 'civil unrest' that probably will cause.

Can you believe that the FBI does not do any checks on candidates because the political parties are charged with the responsibility of making sure the candidate is leagally able to run for the office (the DNC is a Defendant also in this court case). And then if the person is elected to Congress or the Presidency, they, the FBI, simply gives them a Secret Security Clearance? Unbelievable!

Ladiesman271
11-02-2008, 12:43 PM
Oil companies only work on less than 5% profit margin. Most business would fail trying to work on that small a margin. The upfront exploration and drilling costs in that business are huge, and so are the risks.

Now for the best part: If there is some "windfall" profits due to the ahabs jacking up the price of crude, where does that money go....( the part that does not go to the ahabs)? It goes out as dividends to people who are smart enough to own Exon stock. Like ME!!! So keep ponying $4 for gas....I love it!!!!!!!!!!



More like clearing 16 to 17% before income taxes (XOM for last three years).

I would like to know which members of the hedge fund / retirement fund / wall street crowd has been manipulating oil futures for the past year.

Ladiesman271
11-02-2008, 12:51 PM
Here is a method of "investing" for profit that has sunk more than one financial institution in the past few months.

Some people may call these investments just a method of making a "fair" profit. Others may call it greed. Others may call it manipulation (be it legal or illegal).

http://www.thestreet.com/story/10442288/1/cramer-shorts-got-booted-out-of-paradise.html

frenchie
11-02-2008, 01:29 PM
Gentlemen, adjust your tin hats?


Gary - the plaintiff in that case, is the same cat who sued the government for being complicit in 9/11. He's a wingnut. And the reason it's back in the news, is that the court threw it out.

As far as his case, factcheck & other have thouroughly de-bunked it. Do a LITTLE reasearch before you repeat stuff? It only takes 1/2 minute to see if snopes has something on it...

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/citizen.asp



Mark - attaching a legit name & email adress to a bogus message, doesn't make the message any less bogus. Have you looked at the candidates' actual tax plans?

It only takes 1/2 a minute to check snopes, when you get one of these...

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/taxes.asp



C'mon - with all the real, legit differences between the candidates and their policies - why are you participating in this gutter BS?

This is how republics die - when citizens put their party ahead of the country, ahead of honest discourse, ahead of their responsability as citizens.

I'm completely disapointed in you guys.

Dunbar Plumbing
11-02-2008, 02:59 PM
Gentlemen, adjust your tin hats?


Gary - the plaintiff in that case, is the same cat who sued the government for being complicit in 9/11. He's a wingnut. And the reason it's back in the news, is that the court threw it out.

As far as his case, factcheck & other have thouroughly de-bunked it. Do a LITTLE reasearch before you repeat stuff? It only takes 1/2 minute to see if snopes has something on it...

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/citizen.asp



Mark - attaching a legit name & email adress to a bogus message, doesn't make the message any less bogus. Have you looked at the candidates' actual tax plans?

It only takes 1/2 a minute to check snopes, when you get one of these...

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/taxes.asp



C'mon - with all the real, legit differences between the candidates and their policies - why are you participating in this gutter BS?

This is how republics die - when citizens put their party ahead of the country, ahead of honest discourse, ahead of their responsability as citizens.

I'm completely disapointed in you guys.



Frenchie,


Those "links" you just posted don't hold water as credible because of the following:


Goooogle ads all over that site loaded with Obama links

Pop-up ads are from Sundance Channel.....you know what affiliation that comprises

The references to data on the tax plans is from CNN, CNBC? And what side of the fence do those affiliations tie to?

The birth certificate link you provided is referenced to published books, not any credible reference to "actual" data. Those are opinions written by 3rd parties, not a .gov document listing showing the statistics of what qualifies and what doesn't.

Why won't he show the true document? Or release his college records? Where there is smoke, there is fire.


Snopes as you might think is a good way to debunk statements from time to time but it's clearly evident that between their advertising and pop-ups, who they refer to for statistical data is in question.


Just the same as if someone proved a point and linked out fox news or a gop.com website.

You'd be the first to toot your horn stating it can't be credible.


So...

Please, provide us with links to proof about these statements that come from a source that doesn't participate in catering to one party or another.



Those tax statements are from the sources back in June of this year....and we all know they've been tweaked on both sides since then.


In my opinion about the birth certificate and tax proposals....none of it really matters to me. There's tons of reasons for or against an opponent...


my beef is with the company he has kept all the years leading up to this point. That's my concern.



I'm going to wait for you to bring up some credible sources, or anyone for that matter. No spin either.




C'mon - with all the real, legit differences between the candidates and their policies - why are you participating in this gutter BS?

This is how republics die - when citizens put their party ahead of the country, ahead of honest discourse, ahead of their responsability as citizens.

I'm completely disapointed in you guys.


It seems you're doing the above to prove a point. Please don't disappoint us.

Terry
11-02-2008, 03:10 PM
I won't bother to say who I'm voting for, only I will know on Tuesday.
Well, maybe my kids will know.

But it is that time of year, where you can't look at a website without ads popping up with campaign messages, the television and radio are playing more ads, and most of what you see and hear is just white noise.

In a few more days it will all end.
At least for the past month I haven't seen any competing plumbing ads on televison.
So if you are in the Seattle area, this is my ad.
See, even I'm doing it.
Terry Love

nhmaster
11-02-2008, 03:14 PM
So we have dragged both candidates, a few corporations and finally God himself into the discussion and all without a solution. Not that I expected one. After all some very very smart folks have been slugging away at this for a lot longer than any of us have. Still, if it all makes you take a few moments and take more than a fleeting glance at your candidate of choice, perhaps you just may change your mind. When you hear words like corporate greed and Unfair tax rates for the rich it's easy to jump on that band wagon. This is America. Everyone despises a winner:D However it's not enough to take these statements at face value. to get a clear picture you need to look into both sides of the equation with as much open mindedness as you can muster. I will say it one more time. A business tax is another tax on the consumer. Prove me wrong.

By the way. I totally agree about churches. The founding fathers wanted a separation of church and state, not a free ride. They own property, they should pay property taxes. They have income, they should not be tax exempt. Nor should any organization that is paying salaries to those working for it.

Cookie
11-02-2008, 05:04 PM
A friend, who is a Harvard Prof, sent me this tonite, he just toured Australia and we started talking about economics. Universal problem.

This is dated Oct 08.
http://video.aol.com/video-detail/corporate-greed/1776943696/?icid=VIDLRVNWS02

nhmaster
11-02-2008, 06:01 PM
I have a very good friend that lives in Melborne. those poor folks are about at wits end with the endless taxation and corruption that runs rampant in Austrailian government. We are by no means alone in this. In fact many nations suffer far worse than we do.

frenchie
11-02-2008, 06:09 PM
Just the same as if someone proved a point and linked out fox news or a gop.com website.

You'd be the first to toot your horn stating it can't be credible.


You're doing that thing again, bro - where you argue with the leftie in yer head, instead of me.

I've been known to link directly to Fox.



And... you're missing my point, completely.

Dunbar Plumbing
11-02-2008, 06:42 PM
You're doing that thing again, bro - where you argue with the leftie in yer head, instead of me.

I've been known to link directly to Fox.



And... you're missing my point, completely.




LOL!


Sucks when you're asked to back up a statement and can't.


BTW, There's no McCain ads on that site, NONE. Nothing that represents an equal division.


Entertain us when you can muster more credible statistical data instead of quick witted one-liners.



You didn't expect me to check the sources.......did you...

master plumber mark
11-02-2008, 06:49 PM
Talking politics all makes me want to puke...

smoke and mirrors, lies and false allegations...
and all around horse-shit



I cant wait till its all over....


I cant wait till OBAMA becomes president....


and I will be forced to pay health benefits for all my employees...

its no problem, I just wont have any...

Cookie
11-02-2008, 07:17 PM
I have a very good friend that lives in Melborne. those poor folks are about at wits end with the endless taxation and corruption that runs rampant in Australian government. We are by no means alone in this. In fact many nations suffer far worse than we do.

We studied economics together and toured the land of oz once or twice together. I know you will disagree with this, but, they are at no more wits' end than we are here. This is a discussion in itself which is too extensive. My point in posting the video was to show that corporate greed is worldwide. Nothing more.

Gary Slusser
11-02-2008, 08:27 PM
I have a very good friend that lives in Melborne. those poor folks are about at wits end with the endless taxation and corruption that runs rampant in Austrailian government. We are by no means alone in this. In fact many nations suffer far worse than we do.
Speaking of other countries... And being worse off.

My wife was born in South Africa in 1952 and the family moved to Rhodesia when she was 2. For the geographically challenged, that's Zimbabwe now, it's on the east coast of Africa. Africa is a continent between the southern Atlantic and Indian oceans, south of Europe. Those oceans, they are the big blue areas on a world map...

Her Dad died and the family, she and her family moved back to SA in 1975 during the 'civil war' in Rhodesia. She and her son came here (legally) in 1999.

She is in contact with many people from both countries that due to 'politics' and the aftermath of drastic changes made in both countries have scattered around the world. Many are in Australia, New Zealand, England, Canada and here.

The majority of them see a sinister similarity to our current political situation and what happened in SA and Zimbabwe over the last 10-20 years.

My wife has two daughters and their husbands and kids, her mother, a sister and her husband and 3 daughters and a brother and his wife still in SA.

I also see a similarity and hear the same type rhetoric from Obama as was and is still used in SA and Zimbabwe, especially when CHANGE is the only thing I believe he is being honest about.

nhmaster
11-03-2008, 02:44 AM
Change is a powerfull word. Bill Clinton rode it to victory and 8 years later the power of the word is still strong. A candidate can use it with impudence. Some change is good. Some change is necessary. Not all change is for the better.

Cass
11-03-2008, 03:39 AM
After the election, if Bama wins, we will complain and gripe a while then 4 years from now the frog will be just a little hotter in the pot and one day...some time in the future...he will be totaly cooked.

There are so many trees no one can see the forest..

master plumber mark
11-03-2008, 03:46 AM
Mark!


They are talking about voter machine malfunctions, 2 days before election.


Your thoughts?

:D




TI thought that they were talking about the lawsuit to find out where Obama was legally born.. were they not??..


On your subject......voter fraud....
that is how elections are won in this country anyway???

its never been the popular vote but the electorial vote that counts... theirhas always beena lot of controversy about
that situation


its all the same old horse-crap.....who can lie the best
and cheat without "technically" getting caught..




Politics....

selling your soul to the devil to lie, cheat and slander to to keep
your party in office and keep your bougus job...and all the perks that
come with your job.....




I would much rather just do plumbing...


.



whatever....

Cass
11-03-2008, 03:56 AM
The voter machine problem has been out there for years and the majority don't seem to care.

Dibold is at the bottom of this...as I am sure others are...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZws98jw67g

master plumber mark
11-03-2008, 03:57 AM
I know with my business that I just cant go and write myself a bonus anytime I feel like it, I cant just give my
employees a bonus without them some-how earning that bonus or raise...

their has to be money in the account before I go out and buy a new 45,000 van......I cant just buy it on credit and expect my chilldren to pay my bills for me ....

or can I ???



> _ HOW LONG DO WE HAVE?
>
> This is the most interesting thing I've read in a long
> time. The sad thing about it, you can see it coming.
>
> I have always heard about this democracy countdown. It is
> interesting to see it in print. God help us, not that we
> deserve it.
>
> HowLong Do We Have?
>
> About the time our original thirteen states adopted
> theirnew constitution in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish
> history professor at the University of Edinburgh, had this
> to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000
> years earlier.>
> "A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply
> cannot exist as a permanent form of government."
>
> "A democracy will continue to exist up until the
> time that voters discover they can vote themselves generous
> gifts from the public treasury." ($700 Billion Bailout)
>
> "From that moment on, the majority always vote for the
> candidates who promise the most benefits from the public
> treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally
> collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always
> followed by a dictatorship."
>
> "The average age of the world's greatest
> civilizations from the beginning of history, has been
> about 200 years"
>
> "During those 200 years, those nations always
> progressed through the following sequence:>
>
> 1. From bondage to spiritual faith;
> 2. From spiritual faith to great courag e;
> 3. From courage to liberty;
> 4. From liberty to abundance;
> 5. From abundance to complacency;
> 6. From complacency to apathy;
> 7. From apathy to dependence;
> 8. From dependence back into bondage"
>
> Professor Joseph Olson of Hemline University School of Law,
> St. Paul, Minnesota, points out some interesting facts
> concerning the 2000 Presidential election:
>
>
> Number of States won by:
>
> Gore: 19
> Bush: 29
>
>
>
> Square miles of land won by:
>
> Gore: 580,000
> Bush: 2,427,000
>
>
> Population of counties won by:
>
> Gore: 127 million
> Bush: 14 3 mill ion
>
>
> Murder rate per 100,000 residents in counties won by:
>
> Gore: 13.2
> Bush: 2.1
>
>
> Professor Olson adds: "In aggregate, the map of the
> territory Bush won was mostly the land owned by the
> taxpaying citizens of this great country.
>
> Gore's territory mostly encompassed those citizens
> living in government-owned tenements and living off various
> forms of government welfare..." Olson believes the
> United States is now somewhere between the "complacency
> and apathy" phase of Professor Tyler's definition
> of democracy, with some forty percent of the nation's
> population already having reached the "governmental
> dependency" phase.
>
> If Congress grants amnesty and citizenship to twenty
> million criminal invaders called illegal , and they vote,
> then we can say goodbye to the USA in fewer than five years.
>


Rugged ...what is your opinioin about this?

Cass
11-03-2008, 04:19 AM
Mark...if these stats are real it wouldn't supprise me...human nature what it is...most people won't work if there is a way not to...had a guy living accross from me back in the early 80s and his wife was on welfare and he was in the army at the same time...I guess the gvmt. had no checks in place at that time to catch him...all paper no computers.

master plumber mark
11-03-2008, 04:30 AM
Mark...if these stats are real it wouldn't supprise me...human nature what it is...most people won't work if there is a way not to...had a guy living accross from me back in the early 80s and his wife was on welfare and he was in the army at the same time...I guess the gvmt. had no checks in place at that time to catch him...all paper no computers.


We have seen this in our every day lives for decades.
we work all over our cities and see reality for what it is.

people trying to cheat the system and get everything they can
from the goventment.... ...


all the generations of people on welfare and others out there simply
expect something for nothing and feel that they are entitled to it........

Now they have a candidate for president to vote for that will give them anything
that they ask for.....anything......


guess what is going to happen???..


they will all be disapointed when that politician has to
break those promises that got him into office in the first place.....

and of course someone will have to be blamed .for not supporting the "dream".



Probably the middle class that refuse to support the dream.....


or "the great society" like LBJ tried to do....

----------------------------------------------------------------------


now back to shoveling horse shit...

I got two water heaters,

and a couple of other calls to do today..




you know.....I think I would make a great dictator...



"ask not what your country can do for you ,
but ask how you can get off your lazy ass and do for yourself"




.

Gary Slusser
11-03-2008, 08:10 AM
Mark,
> with some forty percent of the nation's
> population already having reached the "governmental
> dependency" phase.

About 12-18 months ago, IIRC, Paul Harvey announced that for the first time in our history, the dependent urban pukes outnumbered the usually self sufficient redneck rural population; 51-49%.

Checking presidential poles this morning, they are running the same 51-49%.

Cass, many lower ranked military service people have historically been living on welfare and food stamps to survive. IIRC Bush increased pay scales to right that wrong but I don't know if they are all that much better off today.

That's while any national politician that wins a single 2, 4 or 6 year congressional or presidency term gets a pension and other benefits for life.

Cass
11-03-2008, 10:45 AM
Cass, many lower ranked military service people have historically been living on welfare and food stamps to survive. IIRC Bush increased pay scales to right that wrong but I don't know if they are all that much better off today.


You are right but that doesn't mean they should take advantage of the system...if you don't like the $$$ don't join...it is all volunteer so there is no excuse.

frenchie
11-03-2008, 10:48 AM
Strange... I just searched at factcheck.org and can't find a single mention of Obama birth certificate law suit. It looks like an Obama lovefest site...;


You didn't search very hard.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/born_in_the_usa.html



...Look:

- the State of Hawaii says it's a genuine Birth Certificate.

- the judge thinks it's genuine.

- the State department clearly thinks it's genuine, or they wouldn't have given him a passport; and we know he has a passport, since he went to Berlin this summer.

- the newspaper in Honolulu carried a birth announcement, at the time.


Now, MAYBE you're right; MAYBE he's not a natural-born citizen, and there's a vast conspiracy hiding the real facts.

...And MAYBE the WTC was an inside job, maybe the moon missions were all faked, maybe Elvis is still alive.

I can't believe I'm even spending time on this.

Cass
11-03-2008, 11:52 AM
The question is if he was born on US soil not if he is an American with a birth certificate...the only thing that will show the answer is the long form birth certificate not the short form...the long form shows who the attending doctor was and where the birth took place...the short form shows nothing that will answer the questions...he refuses to show the long form...there is ample evidence to warrant with a good conscience, him to reveal his long form birth certificate and dispel any question about his being born on US soil...if he can dispel it....

The short form is what was on the web site...

Gary Slusser
11-03-2008, 12:17 PM
You are right but that doesn't mean they should take advantage of the system...if you don't like the $$$ don't join...it is all volunteer so there is no excuse.
I agree as long as they can't legally qualify for welfare and/or food stamps.

Terry
11-03-2008, 01:11 PM
Okay, this is getting funny now.
I'm sure that both candidates have legal birth certificates to run for president.

Isn't this thread supposed to be about taxation?

Speaking of which, I was helping to grade school papers last night for a Junior High in Blaine WA
The papers were on the Boston Tea Party, and Paul Reveres ride, and the ensuing start of the war between the British and the Colonies that was started in Concord.
A nice little war was started because England had some debt from a war campaign that needed paying off, and it wasn't going to be like that.
But it was.
Something about snowballs with rocks and glass in them, a solider falling, his gun going off, and then
Bam, Bam, Bam,
It got a little more complicated.

It was interesting seeing some of the papers, and some of the answers.
We are talking about an event that took place over 200 years ago, with young kids that are living in a different generation than before.
Some of the kids in the class are homeless, living in tents near the Canadian border. There are bigger concerns for them, than what they are being taught in school.

Is anyone going to catch the Saturday Night Live special tonight at 9:00PM on channel 5?

frenchie
11-03-2008, 02:34 PM
The question is if he was born on US soil not if he is an American with a birth certificate...the only thing that will show the answer is the long form birth certificate not the short form...the long form shows who the attending doctor was and where the birth took place...the short form shows nothing that will answer the questions...he refuses to show the long form...there is ample evidence to warrant with a good conscience, him to reveal his long form birth certificate and dispel any question about his being born on US soil...if he can dispel it....

The short form is what was on the web site...

If you bothered to follow the link to factcheck, earlier, you might have noticed this sentence:

"The Hawaii Department of Health's birth record request form does not give the option to request a photocopy of your long-form birth certificate."


BTW, John McCain was born in Panama - you can argue that a military base is US soil - but that wasn't the court's argument when they dismissed the case against John.

There's also FDR, who was born in Canada...



And then his visit last week to HI to visit his white grandmother when it was reported a few days later that the (democrat) Governor sealed his record or file.


Now that she's dead... proving that his visit last week really was what he claimed (his last chance to see the woman who raised him, before she died)... do you feel like a jerk, at all, for implying otherwise?

Redwood
11-03-2008, 03:32 PM
All I know is if you watch enough of this...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v90/deadkennedys101/faux_news5B15D.jpg

You can get way out there....

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51SV1P69J1L._SL500_AA240_.jpg

We've got an election tomorrow for president...
You can't go in there in this mindless trance your in...

Cookie
11-04-2008, 06:26 AM
This is neat.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2008/11/obamas_attack_ad_on_himself.asp

Cookie
11-04-2008, 06:40 AM
Okay, this is getting funny now.
I'm sure that both candidates have legal birth certificates to run for president.

Isn't this thread supposed to be about taxation?

Speaking of which, I was helping to grade school papers last night for a Junior High in Blaine WA
The papers were on the Boston Tea Party, and Paul Reveres ride, and the ensuing start of the war between the British and the Colonies that was started in Concord.
A nice little war was started because England had some debt from a war campaign that needed paying off, and it wasn't going to be like that.
But it was.
Something about snowballs with rocks and glass in them, a solider falling, his gun going off, and then
Bam, Bam, Bam,
It got a little more complicated.

It was interesting seeing some of the papers, and some of the answers.
We are talking about an event that took place over 200 years ago, with young kids that are living in a different generation than before.
Some of the kids in the class are homeless, living in tents near the Canadian border. There are bigger concerns for them, than what they are being taught in school.

Is anyone going to catch the Saturday Night Live special tonight at 9:00PM on channel 5?


The best part of teaching for me was grading. Did you grade on the curve Terry?

I always gave the kids all A's... even if the papers were horrible, but sent home a note telling the parents that they did poorly, :D (easy to tell when the parents did the work, so why penalize the kids) I loved it.:)

Terry
11-04-2008, 09:19 AM
Did you grade on the curve Terry?



Well, it was just a few of us helping Travis that night.
That's not my normal gig.
He was one of the teachers in Guatemala last year that helped to pour the concrete floors, that you helped donate for.
This year he is back in the US.

My daughter teaches first grade in Mukilteo, I think she has less to grade.

http://www.terrylove.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=4481&stc=1&d=1211240338
Travis on the right.

http://www.terrylove.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=4486&stc=1&d=1211241652
Parts of Guatemala City

Here you live with the very well to do, and those that work for them.
The super markets that you and I would shop in are like any store here in the US.

The people living here, shop at the local markets.

nhmaster
11-04-2008, 09:24 AM
Terry, If those kids don't pay attention to what they learn in school they may just end up spending their whole lives in tents.

I never ever grade on a curve. It penalizes the kids that excel and rewards mediaocraty. I do however allow re-test and make up, though many are too lazy to take advantage of the offer. You do what you can.

For those interested, I'll be having a small gathering on the first moonless night at Boston Harbor. Bring you own pitchfork. :D

Herk
11-04-2008, 11:14 AM
Okay, let's review:

The contention here seems to be that if taxes on corporations go up, the price of their products will go up to the consumer.

So, what do the corporations pay taxes on? Profit. If Exxon were given an extra tax for asinine windfall profits, would they need to raise the price of their product? Remember, profit means all their expenses and salaries were already paid.

Does Exxon or any other corporation not have a responsibility to the people they're fleecing? Do they think that they should enjoy the benefits of a nation without helping to support it? Where does the money come from?

The idea of redistributing the wealth is not new, nor even rare. We do it all the time. The question isn't whether the wealth should be redistributed, but whose wealth and to where.
The current imbalance is creating a class structure that the Founders did everything they could to prevent.

So, do you really think that bought-off politicians who vote in favor of either corporate benefits or tax breaks really believe that somehow the company's employees will benefit? Their consumers?

The biggest failure of Free Market Capitalism is that it ignores the most obvious elephant in the room: corporations are after profit, and in most cases, as much profit as they can get. No, Mr. Reagan, they cannot do things more efficiently than government because their motives are completely different.

The real reason for the invention of Free Market Capitalism was simple and obvious: moving money from the masses of people into the hands of the very wealthy. It's a game, people, and you lose.

Mort
11-04-2008, 01:05 PM
Hmmm....not one mention of government greed...of course it's greedy only because it wants to help;)

Mort

Terry
11-04-2008, 02:47 PM
I voted at the polls this afternoon, took me maybe five minutes.
I preprinted my selections using the Seattle Times tool on their web site, and printed my choices to take with me.

And I voted for............................................... ......

Hmm, Seems it doesn't let me print that.

Dunbar Plumbing
11-04-2008, 02:50 PM
Here's the news flash on Drudge Report:


SENATE: DEMS SEE 58 SEATS; EXIT POLLS SHOW OBAMA BIG

master plumber mark
11-04-2008, 03:34 PM
hey, I voted for the guy who promised me great
benefits ......for no more effort on my part ......


he better give me 100% total health benefits,,

and I better get good dental too,,,,,

and I should get a raise and a bonus...

I hope I can get all sorts of free perks....


Its a brave new world...

Maybe he will buy me a new fiberglass shovel.!!!!


..

....

frenchie
11-04-2008, 05:35 PM
Rugged - I'm gonna try one last time to get across to you.

My point has nothing to do with who wins; everything to do with how the game is played.



If you want to compare their actual tax plans - that would be a valid topic.

If you want to talk about their attitudes towards taxation, and what it might say about their political philosophies... hey, there's another valid topic.

But when you wildly distort one candidate's tax plan, just to score points - that's not a valid topic - it's just a lie.

See the difference?



I keep telling you: try argueing with me, instead of the leftie in your head.

What does it tell you that I went after Northup, on the other site, for bringing up the "Keating Five"?



I didn't bring up his trip to Hawaii, Gary did. All I did, was call him on it.




How was I race-bashing, on the other site? It was you saying Powell's endorsement was race-based...

What's next from you, "War is Peace"? "Ignorance is Strength"?




As for snopes - since you brought it up again - if they're such rabid lefties - how come these?

http://www.snopes.com/quotes/bush.asp
http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/hoaxes/presiq.asp
http://www.snopes.com/politics/bush/house.asp
http://www.snopes.com/politics/palin/bannedbooks.asp
http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/kerrysign.asp
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/airplane.asp
http://www.snopes.com/quotes/candidate.asp

Cookie
11-04-2008, 06:36 PM
Here's a little something I believe in:

The Teacher's Oath

I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:
I will respect the hard-won gains of those educators in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.
I will apply, for the benefit of my students, all strategies known to be effective, avoiding busy-work in favor of work with real meaning to the students and their families.
I will remember that there is art to teaching as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the textbook reading or the multiple choice test.
I will work with my colleagues to inspire one another to achieve excellence. I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed to help my students.
If it is given me to enhance a life through teaching, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to cast a shadow over a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty.
I will remember that I do not teach a lesson plan, or a reading deficiency, but a human being, whose skills may affect the person's future family and economic stability. My efforts will aim to teach the whole child, and help that child develop in mind and spirit.
If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of teaching those who seek my help.

Cookie
11-04-2008, 06:45 PM
Terry, If those kids don't pay attention to what they learn in school they may just end up spending their whole lives in tents.

I never ever grade on a curve. It penalizes the kids that excel and rewards mediaocraty. I do however allow re-test and make up, though many are too lazy to take advantage of the offer. You do what you can.

For those interested, I'll be having a small gathering on the first moonless night at Boston Harbor. Bring you own pitchfork. :D

What? You teach a tech skill, right? If you inspire you would not have lazy students, they would not fail.

Cookie
11-04-2008, 08:02 PM
Terry, like your daughter when I first entered into the field (too many years ago) I taught where poverty was high. I wanted to join the Peace Corps. I was glad I started that way for it taught me to be humble, to listen to words that weren't audible~~ to realize, the importance in other matters. It taught me that the snacks I brought in, the clothes I brought, the pencils, notebooks, and smiles were all very important.

The inner cities are very different than the burbs. On both accounts I felt needed. I was important to the families. Teachers need to have very good listening skills in order to teach; so many fail at that over and over. Teachers are to develop in others all the wonderful things that make life essential and a world easier in live in, work in, play in, love in and if successful, they will remember that special teacher with fondness.

I am sure your daughter loves teaching and finds it very rewarding, Terry.

Dunbar Plumbing
11-04-2008, 08:40 PM
I just saw Master Plumber Mark in Grant Park, with a gold shovel.



Good luck mark!

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_2_26.gif

Redwood
11-04-2008, 09:06 PM
Oh Oh...
I was watching Obama's speech...
I just saw Mark and his gold shovel on CNN...
He was jumping up and down waving his shovel like a mad man and security dragged him away....

Redwood
11-04-2008, 09:15 PM
I hope they don't waterboard him...:eek: