Flange issue

Hey, new to the boards thought I'd ask a question. Here is my situation. Working on putting in some wood floors in a half bath. As part of this process I am replacing the toilet and putting in a pedestal sink. It's just a half bath so not concerned about water with the wood floor.

Since i have the toilet off I noticed there is something interesting with the flange. Looks like there was 2 flanges. An offset cast iron (or brass) flange underneath an oatey twist-n-set. The rough-in was 12" from the back wall and about 10" from the side (right in pic) wall.

Pic:



The house was built in 1980 and since this is 1st floor in Texas, the flange is in a slab. So my dilemma is several fold...1) the old off-set flange stuck out from underneath the base of the toilet. Since the toilet was installed on the twist and set which was centered over the down pipe. Not the look i am going for with a new floor and bathroom. 2) using the twist-n-set, puts the toilet very close to the side wall. There is plenty of room in the bathroom so it's not apealling to have the toilet up against the wall. 3) if i took the twist-n-set off, I could use the offset flange...right...well the offset flange doesn't have the provisions for closet bolts on the "right side"...just top, bottom and left.

more pics:



So I am here asking you for options on what to do. What are my options? Should I:
a) remove the cast-iron flange, put a new twist-n-set in and live with the toilet close to the side wall?
b) remove the cast-iron off-set flange and put on a new off-set flange with a full install ring to mount a toilet?
c) other?

appreciate any advice....

Eric in Austin

Oh, by the way, I already removed the cast-iron offset flange. Interesting thing is that it looks to have been leaded on. Now I don't understand how it could be leaded on, when the piping in the slab looks to be plastic....

You are going to a great deal of work and expense in this job so I'd hate to see you suddenly end up with a hack job on your toilet. From the information you give, I see no way the toilet can be set within or even close to code. There is supposed to be 16" from the center of the drain (flange) to each side. You might fudge that an inch but not 6"! My advice to you is to bite the bullet and spend a bit more than you had planned to hire a plumber to relocate the drain and set the flange properly. Do remember that the flange is supposed to set on top of the finished floor and be anchored into the slab.

flange

IT is 15" from the side wall, and only one kind of cast iron offset flange will work to move it sideways, and they are almost impossible to install even if you could find one. Even a plastic offset flange would only move it about 1 1/2" inches to the side. You had a "hack" installation, and unless you break some concrete and do it right, you will still have a "hack" installation.

Thanks for the replies.

So i figured you might say that I will need to bust up some concrete. So now i think my options are as follows:

1) hire a plumber....any idea how much a job like this costs?

2) bust up the concrete myself and redo the plumbing myself. So in my previous house I went into the foundation to redo a shower drain (put in a tile base shower with a 2 stage drain with the help of johnbridge forums).

Now if i go the second route, i may need some help figuring out a plan. I see a couple of hurdles...
1)I see that the closet bend in the foundation looks to be PVC, however the flange was metal leaded on. How is this done? is there a special type of plastic that can have a metal flange leaded on? Or is it possible that they leaded on the metal to a cast metal down pipe then had some kind of conversion piece from metal to plastic. Think back to what they used in 1980.

2)Need to figure out the route for the pipe. Thier is a closet bend in the cement about 12" below the surface. The outlet of the bend is pointed toward the back wall. I am wondering if remove the concrete, leave the closet bend where it is, put a 45* bend on that pointing away from the side wall, then put in a plastic 45* swivel flange (oatey 43816) with a pvc pipe between. I mocked that up in a lowes yesterday and in 8" of height, it would move the flange over ~4"...possibly more depending on distance from the 45* angle on the closet bend.

Thoughts? Does my explaination make sense? Is that too many bends for a waste pipe.

It looks as though you do not have too much vertal height to do an offset.Rent the electric jack hammer and expose the pipe back to where it is horizontal.Then you *should* have an easier time located the stub up pipe correctly...
if it's 3" use a 4x3 90 degree bend and stub up a piece of 4".cap it,pour back your floor,pergo right up to you stub up pipe and ,get a cold beer as your alost done,cut the pipe flush with the floor and put on your flange into the 4" pipe you so nicely cut off with out scratching your new floor.Cement is cheap but labor is expensive.
A Plumber will be very happy to do all of this otherwise!

After getting an estimate...i think i am going to tackle this myself. Before I chip away some concrete, I want to get some advice on how to run the new line. Attached is a picture with my fabulous photoshop skills. I have drawn how the pipe runs under the subfloor. What is the best way to tap in and move the flange 5" or 6" over to the left?

Also what are the limitations on using bends on a drain line. Can you use 2 90* bends close to each other?

Bump. Anyone have some ideas?

Yea... How was the estimate?

$500...just over the phone estimate. Reasonable but thinking i can do it for a lot less.

Any idea on best place to cut the old pipe and rough in a new one? Wondering what would be be the best path.

How can I advise you on something I cannot see...
I will tell you that if I found someone here that would do it for that amount I would subcontract it in a heartbeat.

That's the going price for a new installation, and a retrofit is always harder to do, especially since there is concrete demolition and repair to do. Take it and be done. Get the hardwood out of the way so it doesn't get destroyed.

Moving it over is going to be a tight job.
Hard to say how things will line up...

Redwood said:

How can I advise you on something I cannot see...
I will tell you that if I found someone here that would do it for that amount I would subcontract it in a heartbeat.

Click to expand...

I was hoping you could help from the above picture with the black line (symbolizing the pipe) extending from the flange to the wall. Wondering if i put a 45* as close to the back wall as possible then run that into a closet bend to run it to the verticle up to the flange. Pic below. All lines drawn are the horizonal pipe in the slab.

It's hard to say what you can do until you see what you have to work with...

Let me ask a few questions...

1) what is the code restrictions for a flange...how far away from a back wall (12"?) and an ajoining wall.

2) what is the min size of pipe for a toilet waste line.

3) Are there any restrictions, both code wise and professional opinion, on types of bends, how many can be in used in a close distance.

The distance from the back wall is not so much a code issue as it is an installation issue. Toilets can have a 10", a 12" or a 14" rough in,with 12" the preferred because of toilet selection. The distance is measured from the finished wall, not counting base molding, to the center of the drain opening. From side to side, the minimum code distance is 15" also from the center of the drain. Drain pipe can be either 3" or 4". I suspect you are trying to figure how you can avoid rerouting your drain to move the toilet over to a usable location. I can't say I blame you for trying, but it really isn't wise to use bends to reconfigure the rough-in. The normal plumbing is 1 closet bend (elbow) from the pipe up to the floor with a flange on top. My best advise to you is to call a plumber for this job. I'm really afraid you are going to end up with a hack job that will always cause you problems.

I don't understand the reluctance to help. I certinaly don't want a hack up either, that's why I am asking pros on this forum. Keep in mind that I have not commited..heck, haven't even busted a piece of concrete yet. Just thought you all could help brainstorm. I am not sure how a pro would do something much different then what I, in combination with the folks on this board would do.

Back to brainstorming.... I purchased a 4x3 closet bend and a 3" 45* street bend and did a little mock up with some pictures. Is this doable? Is it code? Is there any rules on how close a bend can be to a closet 90?

I took a few pics...the blue painter tape (not the role proping up the closet bend) on the concrete is the outgoing pipe in the slab. With a set up like this it would put the center of the flange an extra 5" over from before giving me greater than 16" from side wall while keeping 12" from back wall.

The smallest pipe for the toilet is a 3"
You can use 4" too.
Some closet bends go from 4" to 3"

After you take out the concrete, and expose the pipe below, you will have a better idea of what will be needed.

Code for a toilet is 15" from center to side, that means a space of 30" if it's set right in the middle.
Most toilets are made for a 12" rough, measured from the back finished wall to the center of the drain.

The water supply can be 8" plus or minus to the left of center.
You don't want it to hit the back of the bowl.

Thanks for the info.

Is it within code to use a closet bend right next to a 45* bend?