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Speedy Petey
10-04-2008, 11:09 AM
This is posted for, and with permission of, member mat159:


I am wiring for a 220v hot tub in my back yard which will then also feed an above ground pool. I was told that I could use this dedicated line after the GFCI to run both.

The distance I have to go is great, approx 80-90ft from the breaker box (60ft indoor 20-30ft outside). For the Hot Tub I need to use 4 wires plus a ground.

My tub, Thermospa is calling for 220v, 50 amp breaker, 4 line (2 hot, neutral & ground)

I am having trouble finding this wire. Plus it seems this amount of wire is very expensive for this length. Can I double up two sets of 6-2 wires to make the set or can I purchase the #6 hot leads, #8 neutral and #12 ground each separately and run as one?

I am not going to do the box or unit wiring but I do want to run the lines to save $$. Your wisdom is appreciated.

Thanks & Best regards,

Matt

Speedy Petey
10-04-2008, 11:16 AM
Matt,

ALL of the outside portion of the wiring for a hot tub of pool equipment MUST be in conduit, along with an insulated ground.

To do what you want you'll need a sub-panel. You CANNOT feed a 50A hot tub and a 20A pool pump from the same circuit.

You will need at minimum a 60A feeder to the sub-panel. I would recommend #4cu and a 90A breaker though. Pools can have a lot of peripheral equipment.
From there you can run the circuit to the tub and pool equipment.

The run would consist of three #4cu THWN (one marked white) and one #8THWN green.
To the tub you will likely be required to run #6cu. Most manufacturers require this.

Speedy Petey
10-04-2008, 11:19 AM
I forgot to add. You CANNOT double up on the lines (parallel conductors) of this size.

I would STRONGLY suggest you have your electrician come out before you do anything. See what he suggests. You may wind up running something different that what he wants and you'll waste money re-doing it.

Billy_Bob
10-04-2008, 01:57 PM
And might want to sit down before they tell you the cost of wire these days!:eek:

mat159
10-04-2008, 06:03 PM
Petey-Thank you for bringing my question to the board.

So here it is...
Like I said earlier, i have to go nearly 50-60' indoors then another 30-40' outdoor. I can run the wire through the house then goto conduit once I go outdoors with it.

Like BB said, the cost of wire this length & gauge is going to be a car payment. I need to know exactly what type of wire I need then I can shop it online (**** etc).

With this being said is there anyway to guess-ti-mate what I will need?

I know with computer wiring, similar to Romex, some cords are merely 3 or 4 color-coded wires with an outer shell wrapping. With the computer wiring, you can take & run each of the needed wires and run them single (but together) as if they were wrapped without the outer covering of a cord.

Given the length I need to go I was thinking it would be much cheaper to buy 100' of #4, along with 100' of ground #?) Would this be a feasible idea or should I not even bother and just close my eyes when paying??

Petey, I think you're already with me on this, based upon how I read this statement, "The run would consist of three #4cu THWN (one marked white) and one #8THWN green."
If I am wrong, please let me know. (I don’t recognize your acronyms, THWN & #cu, please explain)

mat159
10-05-2008, 07:53 AM
Well here's the thing...I only have the Hot Tub now and the pool is to be installed in '09. I havent purchased the pump & filter for the pool yet so I dont know what the specs will be. I can only assume it will be 220 even though it could be 110.

Food for thought; the pool pump & filter will be on a timer going off once or twice a day. This means I can have the pool off anytime i use the hot tub which will lessen the electric pull.

jimbo
10-05-2008, 11:01 AM
We'll let speedy or bobnh tell us about the code issues of what you propose. I suspect that your personal "assurance" that you won't run the pump and the hot tub at the same time is not sufficient basis for installing smaller guage wire and smaller breakers.

As far as the cost, I am always suspicious of the online sites such as you propose. In the case of wire, there is a LOT of stolen stuff out there. Some goes the the recyclers, but some ends up on you-know-where. The price of copper is what it is. If you can find somebody on line that just got overstocked with something he can't use, well these are the deals that people look for on line. Shipping will add to the cost. But check it all out, anyway.

Speedy Petey
10-05-2008, 01:15 PM
#4, #8, #6, etc are all conductor sizes. THHN or THWN are conductor types.

Dual rated THHN/THWN is the most common conductor by far.

What I meant was that a larger feeder to this new sub-panel would be advised. There is no way for you to tell when the heat will kick on with your tub, so going bigger might be a good idea.

I would say a 60A feeder would be the smallest you should possibly go.
This would require #6 cable or THWN conductors in conduit.
The bump up in size to #4 would not kill you money wise.

jwelectric
10-05-2008, 04:08 PM
Not meaning to sound rude but it seems to me that if someone can afford a hot tub and pool they can afford an electrician to install them.

This is not like changing out a switch or receptacle and needs to be done correctly or someone could die

Chris75
10-05-2008, 04:25 PM
Not meaning to sound rude but it seems to me that if someone can afford a hot tub and pool they can afford an electrician to install them.

This is not like changing out a switch or receptacle and needs to be done correctly or someone could die

I was thinking the same thing... Must be tough to be so poor.

Southern Man
10-05-2008, 05:16 PM
Not meaning to sound rude but it seems to me that if someone can afford a hot tub and pool they can afford an electrician to install them.

.... Not to mention the monthly power bill. :)

Speedy Petey
10-05-2008, 05:32 PM
I don't know. I always get yelled at when I say such things. :p

jwelectric
10-05-2008, 05:37 PM
I don't know. I always get yelled at when I say such things. :p

You have given him the best advice that he would ever get so there wasn't much more to say. :D

mat159
10-08-2008, 07:04 AM
Everyone's a critic... I have been out of work since June and have come across a used hot tub for a steal, $1000.

Maybe I wasn’t clear about my intentions, in an effort to avoid spending another $1K , I want to buy and run the lines then have an electrician do the hook up. I merely needed to be sure of what type of wire to run and the type of outdoor hook up I need to look for so I can shop the materials and know what the electrician is telling me when I get one.

I had been told a couple of things ranging from splitting the hot tub line to feed both the pool and hot tub. But I now know this is not feasible.

Petey- thanks for all your help. I now have all of my questions answered.

jwelectric
10-08-2008, 01:13 PM
Everyone's a critic... I have been out of work since June and have come across a used hot tub for a steal, $1000.

If I had been out of work for 5 months I think I would be saving money instead of blowing $1000 on something that is going to cost even more but then again I have never drawn public money either.

Chris75
10-08-2008, 03:12 PM
If I had been out of work for 5 months I think I would be saving money instead of blowing $1000 on something that is going to cost even more but then again I have never drawn public money either.


But.... it was a steal, how could he not buy it?

jwelectric
10-09-2008, 06:25 AM
There is a lot more to installing a hot tub outside than the feeder or branch circuit that supplies the piece of equipment.

There is the issue of an insulated equipment grounding conductor, GFCI protection, the raceway in which the conductors are installed, the equipotential bonding grid and the list goes on and on.

It has been my experiences that the installation cost of a hot tub far exceeds the cost of the tub itself. The installation is far more than something that a weekend warrior can attempt.

A tub or pool has treated water and electricity in the same area. To simply install a circuit that makes the water churn about is nothing more than a death trap waiting to be sprung.

Every one asks the question, “can I do this or can I do that” when the question should be, “is this safe or is that safe” but this is not what is on their mind. All they are thinking about is jumping into the water and having fun.

My question is always, “are you willing to place yourself and your family in jeopardy just for the sake of having fun?” If you are then just jump into a pond full of alligators and have all the fun that they will allow you to have.

The bottom line here is simple; if you can’t afford the cost of hiring a professional to make the installation then you can’t afford the tub.

Southern Man
10-09-2008, 10:06 AM
You're right not something to be cavalier about. But for a DIYer who's diligent about reading the manufacturer's requirements and following them to the letter, shouldn't that be OK? I installed the wiring to my outdoor spa myself. Just as instructed I used a dedicated 50 amp breaker at the main panel, located the spa panel at the proper distance to the water surface (it has to be not to close to reach it while in the spa, but close enough to get to it quickly when you are out), calculated the correct wire size based on length, installed it in PVC conduit with access boxes all all junctions, and grounded everything. I even installed a new ground rod next to the spa and ran that wire in a slab control joint and caulked it in.

As I recall the electrical parts alone cost me about $500.

jwelectric
10-09-2008, 10:41 AM
located the spa panel at the proper distance to the water surface (it has to be not to close to reach it while in the spa, but close enough to get to it quickly when you are out), There is no need to have a disconnect for a residential tub that is close to the tub.
A maintenance disconnecting means is required by 680.12 but it is to be no less than 5 feet from the tub up to 50 feet from the tub as long as it is with-in sight of the tub motor.
680.12 Maintenance Disconnecting Means.
One or more means to simultaneously disconnect all ungrounded conductors shall be provided for all utilization equipment other than lighting. Each means shall be readily accessible and within sight from its equipment and shall be located at least 1.5 m (5 ft) horizontally from the inside walls of a pool, spa, or hot tub unless separated from the open water by a permanently installed barrier that provides a 1.5 m (5 ft) reach path or greater. This horizontal distance is to be measured from the water's edge along the shortest path required to reach the disconnect.

An emergency switch is not required for a residential tub at all.
680.41 Emergency Switch for Spas and Hot Tubs.
A clearly labeled emergency shutoff or control switch for the purpose of stopping the motor(s) that provide power to the recirculation system and jet system shall be installed at a point readily accessible to the users and not less than 1.5 m (5 ft) away, adjacent to, and within sight of the spa or hot tub. This requirement shall not apply to single-family dwellings.

I even installed a new ground rod next to the spa and ran that wire in a slab control joint and caulked it in.
As I recall the electrical parts alone cost me about $500. Unless you expect lightning to strike the tub the ground rod is as useless as tits on a bore hog.
There is a requirement to install a equipotential bonding grid under a tub that is installed on the outside of a building. If the tub is going to be on a concrete pad this grid must be part of the pad even if the pad already exists. This requirement if found in 680.26 as mandated by 680.42.
This bonding grid is one of the most important items to be installed as it keeps everything at the same potential electrically.

Once again look at the picture that Steve posted to my last post above. To do anything less is to dive into that pond.
Unless you understand why the code requires some of things that it requires then it is best to leave the installation to someone who does before you kill yourself or someone you love.

Southern Man
10-09-2008, 11:27 AM
There is no need to have a disconnect for a residential tub that is close to the tub.....
Unless you expect lightning to strike the tub the ground rod is as useless as tits on a bore hog.

There is a requirement to install a equipotential bonding grid under a tub that is installed on the outside of a building. If the tub is going to be on a concrete pad this grid must be part of the pad even if the pad already exists. This requirement if found in 680.26 as mandated by 680.42.
This bonding grid is one of the most important items to be installed as it keeps everything at the same potential electrically. .....

It's a "spa panel" as specified by the manufacturer. The County inspected and approved this along with the deck work (overhead) that I did at the same time.

The concrete pad doesn't have rebar in it so there's nothing to ground there. Besides 680.26 applies to Part II permanently installed pools, and this is a "portable spa", which are covered under part IV (I guess). For this, grounding is 680.42 (B). Regardless, all metal parts of the spa (there are none) plus the motors and all that are grounded back to the spa panel and to the main panel and to the new grounding rod installed at the edge of the concrete slab. Maybe the new ground rod is overkill but I'd rather not be killed at all.

The only thing that I might have messed up on is that I used a rigid PVC conduit on top of the slab for about 4' between the wall of the house and the spa. I have it protected by portable wood "tiles" (for lack of a better term) that I have positioned at the front of the spa where folks get in an out. Although it has joints at both ends to risers so its not liquid tight I felt that this was better protection than a flex conduit.

jwelectric
10-09-2008, 12:42 PM
It's a "spa panel" as specified by the manufacturer. The County inspected and approved this along with the deck work (overhead) that I did at the same time. One of the funniest things I hear on a daily basis is, “the inspector passed it so it must be right.” I wonder if the inspector that passed it can also walk on water. If he can’t then he is just like the rest of us and capable of making mistakes wouldn’t you think.
If the panel is specified by the tub manufacture then it will come with the tub. If is doesn’t come with the tub then it is part of the premises wiring and must conform to the requirements of the NEC.


The concrete pad doesn't have rebar in it so there's nothing to ground there. I don’t see anything in 680.26 that says that if no rebar is present that the bonding grid can be left out. What I do see is that where no rebar exists then an Alternate Means shall be provided. This grid is not something that requires to be bonded it is something that is required to be installed to keep everything at the same potential electrically. This is why it is named, “The equipotential bonding grid”

680.26 Equipotential Bonding.
(A) Performance. The equipotential bonding required by this section shall be installed to reduce voltage gradients in the pool area.


Besides 680.26 applies to Part II permanently installed pools, and this is a "portable spa", which are covered under part IV (I guess). For this, grounding is 680.42 (B). Regardless, all metal parts of the spa (there are none) plus the motors and all that are grounded back to the spa panel and to the main panel and to the new grounding rod installed at the edge of the concrete slab. Maybe the new ground rod is overkill but I'd rather not be killed at all. This is just what I am talking about in my post through this entire thread. What is said in 680.42 is:

680.42 Outdoor Installations.
A spa or hot tub installed outdoors shall comply with the provisions of Parts I and II of this article, except as permitted in 680.42(A) and (B), that would otherwise apply to pools installed outdoors.
This means that a hot tub installed outside must conform to the requirements of PART II of 680 as well as Part IV.
With a quick read of 250.4 one can easily see that the ground rod is not worth a damn at a pool or a hot tub. It was nothing more than a waste of time and energy. It benefits nothing. It has the same value as dentures for chickens. It would be better used to tie out a cow with than to try and remove voltage at the pool.
This bonding grid that is required by 680.42s reference to Part II of 680 is not required to be bonded back to the service panel nor any part of the service panel.

680.26(B) Bonded Parts. The parts specified in 680.26(B)(1) through (B)(7) shall be bonded together using solid copper conductors, insulated covered, or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG or with rigid metal conduit of brass or other identified corrosion-resistant metal. Connections to bonded parts shall be made in accordance with 250.8. An 8 AWG or larger solid copper bonding conductor provided to reduce voltage gradients in the pool area shall not be required to be extended or attached to remote panelboards, service equipment, or electrodes. I do hope that you understand that the rod will not protect you when you step out of the tub onto those tiles that you didn’t grout in around from being killed in the event that something goes to fault in the tub. The grid when installed properly will keep every thing at the same potential which would be just like the bird that perches on a high voltage line and then flies away. The bird is at the same potential as the high voltage line therefore no harm comes to the bird.


The only thing that I might have messed up on is that I used a rigid PVC conduit on top of the slab for about 4' between the wall of the house and the spa. I have it protected by portable wood "tiles" (for lack of a better term) that I have positioned at the front of the spa where folks get in an out. Although it has joints at both ends to risers so its not liquid tight I felt that this was better protection than a flex conduit. As long as the PVC is schedule 80 there is nothing wrong with having it lying on top of anything. Lets hope that the equipment grounding conductor inside is insulated as the bromide or chlorine will take it away in a hurry.

Southern Man
10-09-2008, 05:58 PM
One of the funniest things I hear on a daily basis is, “the inspector passed it so it must be right.” I wonder if the inspector that passed it can also walk on water. If he can’t then he is just like the rest of us and capable of making mistakes wouldn’t you think.
If the panel is specified by the tub manufacture then it will come with the tub. If is doesn’t come with the tub then it is part of the premises wiring and must conform to the requirements of the NEC.

I don’t see anything in 680.26 that says that if no rebar is present that the bonding grid can be left out. What I do see is that where no rebar exists then an Alternate Means shall be provided. This grid is not something that requires to be bonded it is something that is required to be installed to keep everything at the same potential electrically. This is why it is named, “The equipotential bonding grid”


This is just what I am talking about in my post through this entire thread. What is said in 680.42 is:

This means that a hot tub installed outside must conform to the requirements of PART II of 680 as well as Part IV.
With a quick read of 250.4 one can easily see that the ground rod is not worth a damn at a pool or a hot tub. It was nothing more than a waste of time and energy. It benefits nothing. It has the same value as dentures for chickens. It would be better used to tie out a cow with than to try and remove voltage at the pool.
This bonding grid that is required by 680.42s reference to Part II of 680 is not required to be bonded back to the service panel nor any part of the service panel.
I do hope that you understand that the rod will not protect you when you step out of the tub onto those tiles that you didn’t grout in around from being killed in the event that something goes to fault in the tub. The grid when installed properly will keep every thing at the same potential which would be just like the bird that perches on a high voltage line and then flies away. The bird is at the same potential as the high voltage line therefore no harm comes to the bird.

As long as the PVC is schedule 80 there is nothing wrong with having it lying on top of anything. Lets hope that the equipment grounding conductor inside is insulated as the bromide or chlorine will take it away in a hurry.
Actually what I said is that the inspector passed it. To me that means he is a trained second pair of eyes, sometimes equipped with a measuring tape, nothing more.

The manufacturer specified a panel in accordance with the NEC. It also specified a flat, stable surface to install the unit. Neither were supplied with the unit.

Since I installed this in 2002 I went by that Code. 680.26 is simply titled “Bonding”, and requires all structural metal including rebar to be bonded, if it exists. There is no requirement for a grid. Again, it does not apply, since it is a portable spa, and 680.42 requires Part II provisions “except as permitted in 680.42(A) and (B)…”, where (B) describes bonding. These requirements are even simpler, and do not include grounding wood tiles (again, for lack of a better term) or the wood steps to get in and out (which were provided by the manufacturer).

jwelectric
10-09-2008, 06:29 PM
Actually what I said is that the inspector passed it. To me that means he is a trained second pair of eyes, sometimes equipped with a measuring tape, nothing more. But sometimes he has limited training and little or no knowledge of electrical systems. How can I say this? I have been teaching electrical inspectors for the past eight years.


The manufacturer specified a panel in accordance with the NEC. It also specified a flat, stable surface to install the unit. Neither were supplied with the unit. Which of both must conform to the sections mention above that just found in a different place in the 2002 code cycle


Since I installed this in 2002 I went by that Code. 680.26 is simply titled “Bonding”, and requires all structural metal including rebar to be bonded, if it exists. There is no requirement for a grid. Again, it does not apply, since it is a portable spa, and 680.42 requires Part II provisions “except as permitted in 680.42(A) and (B)…”, where (B) describes bonding. These requirements are even simpler, and do not include grounding wood tiles (again, for lack of a better term) or the wood steps to get in and out (which were provided by the manufacturer).

Even as far back as the 2002 code cycle a hot tub installed outside was to conform to the rules found in Part II of 680 This is found in 680.40. The bonding requirements found in 680.42(B) simply states that the metal parts found on the wooden supports for the skirting of the tub is not required to be bonded,
The verbiage found in .40 that a tub installed outside is to adhere to the rules in Part II deals mainly with the equipotential bonding grid. In the 2002 code cycle in 680.26(B)(1) the requirement to install a copper conductor where there is no rebar or the rebar is encapsulated in a nonconductive compound.

In the 1999 code cycle this requirement was found in 680-22(b)(3). This rule to install a bonding grid is not something that is new and had been around for quite sometime. It is those who never saw any use in having this grid that seems look past the fact one is not installed around tubs installed outside.

Not meaning to sound rude or anything like that, just speaking code but by your own admission you tub is not in compliance with the NEC today nor was it at the time of installation.

Southern Man
10-10-2008, 06:48 AM
I don't think that you're being rude. You do, however, have me confused. 2002 NEC 680.40 requires conformance with Parts I and IV. It doesn't say Part II is required. The bonding requirement in (B) states that "metal to metal mounting on a common frame or base shall be permitted", which is what I have.

And in Part II, 680.26(C) requires a Common Bonding Grid, where (3) allows a copper conductor. I don't find anywhere where the grid is specified to be under the tub on a unreinforced slab. I do have a ground buried in a control joint right in front of the tub where people walk to get in and out. This is bonded to the tub components, panel ground, and then to a ground rod. When I put it in I thought it was overkill but I did it anyway.

With regard to non-compliance, If I need to change out a short length of conduit that runs on the floor to a piece of liquidtight then I can. But that is a mere technicality as it pertains to corrosion protection that is probably not necessary in this location, since the floor is rarely wet.

Also if I need to cut in a perimeter ground wire then I can do that also.

jwelectric
10-10-2008, 10:01 AM
Well I guess I made a typo in the code section so to help me get it right I will just post the code pages and sections that mandate a bonding grid right out of the 2002 code cycle.

Please overlook my markings as this is how I remember what to point out when teaching an electrical inspector’s class. See page eight of this link (http://www.randolph.edu/continuinged/schedule.php) for more information concerning these classes.

First let’s look at the page where the installation of hot tubs is found in the 2002 cycle,

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y63/jwelectric/200268040.jpg

Look closely at section 680.42 for outdoor installations (http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y63/jwelectric/200268042.jpg)

Here is where we are told that a hot tub installed outside must conform to Part II of 680.

The Common Bonding Grid is found in 680.26 in the 2002 cycle

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y63/jwelectric/200268026.jpg

In 680.26(C) the parts that are to be bonded together is outlined,


http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y63/jwelectric/200268026c.jpg

In the first sentence it states that those parts specified in 680.26(B) shall be connected to the common bonding grid.

680.26(B) in the last sentence of 680.26(B1) (http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y63/jwelectric/200268026b.jpg) it gives us the alternate method in there is no rebar or if the rebar is encapsulated with an nonconductive coating. This alternate method is outlined in 680.26(C)(3).

Be sure to click on the blue links to see the code sections mentioned in this post.

Edited for spelling

Southern Man
10-10-2008, 01:29 PM
OK so Part II is required. I'm fairly certain that I complied with it.

jwelectric
10-10-2008, 03:59 PM
OK so Part II is required. I'm fairly certain that I complied with it.


Not hardly


I do have a ground buried in a control joint right in front of the tub where people walk to get in and out.

This grid is to be part of the pad not stuck in an expansion joint

Been involved in the process more years than most are old :D

TheElectricalGuru
10-10-2008, 04:55 PM
Not hardly



This grid is to be part of the pad not stuck in an expansion joint

Been involved in the process more years than most are old :D


I agree.......he is old...thehehehehehe:eek:

Yikes....lol....you know I love ya big guy :)

Southern Man
10-10-2008, 05:38 PM
Not hardly



This grid is to be part of the pad not stuck in an expansion joint

Been involved in the process more years than most are old :D

Not hardly but you can't say where. :cool:

A control joint is not quite the same as an expansion joint.