Please help me design a new heating system!

[Gnfanatic]

Hi guys, I have been lurking around and read quite a few posts here. I am hoping you guys can helpme decide on what to buy. I have a 1600 sq ft house with 2 bedrooms and 1 bath. The bathroom, living room,kitchen and dining room will have radiant heating in cement with tile on top. the bedrooms have cast iron baseboard radiators (made by burnham)). I old oil heating steam system took a dump and I need to replace it. KEYSPAN has a deal that you get a boiler and tank for $899 if you convert. Problem is that the boiler is only 85% effecient. So here are my questions.

1-) should i get their boiler or pay a little more and get a much more effecient one like a weil-mclain ultra series?

2-)Do I need a tank?

3-) I have seen people use 1/2 inch pex, 5/8 or 3/4 for their floors. How do you know what size to use???

I trully appreciate any suggestions or comments. I only have one income coming in so my budget is around $6000. I already have the rads in the bedrooms.


thanks!!!!:D

[BigLou]

well with only 6K that kinda limits you.
1)I think you should buy the highest efficiency boiler you can afford. I recomend buderus.
2) what kinda tank ? an inderect fired hotwater tank is a must
3) what exactly are you trying to do ? there is a lot more to it then just pick a size also concrete is the worst medium for radiant are you adding this in an addition ? how were the rooms heated before hand ? maybe forego the radiant now and buy a better boiler

Lou

[Gnfanatic]

Thanks for the quick response Lou! I am looking for an effient heating system.

1)I think you should buy the highest efficiency boiler you can afford. I recomend buderus. I cant get a weil-mclain in my budget>?
2) what kinda tank ? an inderect fired hotwater tank is a must Def a indirect, I dont know what brand or size.3)

what exactly are you trying to do ? there is a lot more to it then just pick a size also concrete is the worst medium for radiant are you adding this in an addition ? how were the rooms heated before hand ? maybe forego the radiant now and buy a better boiler. The old system was a steam system, had big rad's in the walls. I took them out and all. I though concrete was greeat becuase the heat in the tubings would heat the concrete. as of now the floors are down to the subfloor in the lvingroom, bathroom and kitchen.


thanks again!

[edlentz]

I have a radiant system that my wife and I installed ourselves 3 years ago. We have about 1200 SF. We bought our boiler , tubing, manifolds for about $3500.00 Yes the boiler was a huge chunk. Our Boiler is a Crown, not a Weil Mcann but a good one none the less. We also have an indirect tank for hot water. We put copper fin in an upstairs bedroom. All our main floor is hardwood, the tubing is stapled to the subfloor with plates and insulation. Saying that putting Pex in concrete is wrong is uninformed! There is a website that I frequent. www.heatinghelp.com Go there with your questions. Most of the people there are professionals in the warm water / steam heat business. They have a search for local pros that will help you out. I have read some good stuff here, but for you you need professionals. There is alot of misinformation out there.

Good Luck

[Bob NH]

A proper radiant heating system in a concrete floor is expensive because it must have a lot of insulation below the concrete. Otherwise you are going to waste a lot of gas to heat the earth. Even with the best insulation you will lose some heat to the ground under the concrete.

You or Keyspan can make a calculation to determine what is the best solution for the boiler. Let's say you are taking out a loan to build the addition. Let's say your payments on the loan are $150 per $1000 of loan. Keyspan can tell you how much you will save with the more efficient boiler. If your total loan payment + fuel cost with the more efficient boiler is the same or less than the total loan payment plus fuel cost for the less efficient boiler then you should get the more efficient boiler.

Keystone should give you the same credit for the more efficient boiler that they give you for the less efficient boiler.

[Bill Arden]

1-) should i get their boiler or pay a little more and get a much more efficient one like a weil-mclain ultra series?


Nope, get something cheep and spend more on things you can't replace latter.
The savings between a 80% and a 90% is very small compared to a heat pump.



2-)Do I need a tank?

Yes. any system you make will need either a expansion or a small storage tank.



3-) I have seen people use 1/2 inch pex, 5/8 or 3/4 for their floors. How do you know what size to use???


This is a tricky question.
The bigger the better, but there is a issue of cost.

[Gnfanatic]

Hey guys!
Bob, my house is not on a slab! I have a full basement. I have 3/4 inch thick plank floor that the mud will go on.

Bill, my friend gets 40% at a large plumbing chain here. so the cost between 1/2 and 3/4 and cant be that big of a difference. i didnt know they larger the better.

Ed, good job! thats awesome. I am mech inclined, I can solder well and do electrical. I feel I can do this jsut need to be directed in the right direction. I neevr heard of Crown? I always hear Weil Mclain thats why i brought them up

thanks guys!! getting some ideas here!

[edlentz]

I was fortunate that the distributor I bought from a. was a boiler installer (state licensed) b.sat down with me and drew out the whole system (took 2.5 hours!) before I gave him a dollar. Good luck getting that lucky! :) Tell you what I had a small bathroom that had Red Oak flooring 45 yrs old. I took it up and laid down tile over the pex stapled to the underlayment. I tell you what it warmed up right nice. It sure felt good in the winter!

There is a series of pictures:
Before:http://forums.invision.net/Attachment.cfm?Kat2.JPG&CFApp=2&Attachment_ID=34216

After:http://forums.invision.net/Attachment.cfm?Kat7.JPG&CFApp=2&Attachment_ID=34220

For more go to healtinghelp.com Questions and look for the Coupla Jobs thread.


The previous post is correct that you need to insulate under a slab, but from what I have read the cost is well worth it. These guys do municipal garages with pex in the concrete. They know what they are doing.

[Gnfanatic]

so even though the floor is above a basement I still need to insulate it?? Good job BTW, big room you got there!! what size pex did you go with?

[edlentz]

OOPS that's not my room! That is one from the heatinghelp forum. My room was SMALL. There are alot of ways to install the radiant. I think you can layout the pex probably 1/2" on top, alot of installs use gypcrete (very lightweight) over the pex and then put down tile. I am not sure that you would need to insulate below.

[Bob NH]

You don't need to insulate much or at all below if you want to heat what is below. If you don't want a lot of heat below you should add some fiberglass insulation below the tubes.

For the radiant systems smaller pipe is probably less expensive for material for the same performance. It costs less and you need less concrete to cover it.

The PEX tubing is a heat exchanger. Heat exchanger effectiveness is based on area. The surface area in a foot of PEX is proportional to the diameter but the material is proportional to the square of the diameter. Also, with larger diameter you need a lot more flow to get the velocity necessary for good heat transfer.

[Gnfanatic]

Thanks bob,. so I sure dont want to waste heat heating up the floor beams in the basement. So I will insulate the ceiling in the basement.I will look into whats good out there. I am looking into the ultra series which is about $3000 and the in-direct tank which is another $1000.I have another $2000 to spend on materials, so you guys are sayign thats not enough? Dont forget I already I have the cast iron baseboards.

thansk again!!

[jadnashua]

Before you do anything, you need to figure out the heat load of the building. Then, you can apportion it to each room by square footage, number of windows and exposure. Then, you can figure out how much pipe you need in each area. Depending on the design temps, running the pipe in tighter loops allows more heat to be transferred. There is a maximum supply temp that can be used to make sure the floor isn't overheated. The heat transfer decreases as the difference between the room and the supply. The ideal temp will depend on the insulation factors between the heat and the surface. Laying out the piping is also important - it is often a good idea to lay it out so the side just off the boiler is going around the perimeter, where it is coldest.

You may make it on that budget, but it is likely to be very tight, and you'll need to do all of the work yourself. Keep in mind you will likely need to include permit fees.

This is a complex project to both do well and end up with a comfortable and efficient end result. Do your homework.

You could easily spend that much on the floor coverings themselves, so I'm assuming you have budgeted monies for that above and beyond.

Before you tile, make sure your floor is sufficient to hold it up without deflecting too much and compromising the tile and grout. Check out www.johnbridge.com (http://www.johnbridge.com) for help in tiling and use their 'Deflecto' deflection calculator to verify your construction. You wouldn't want to get all of the mudbed and tile down, then find it all cracks. It is highly recommended that you install a decoupling membrane between any radiant floor and tile. One brand is Ditra from www.schluter.com (http://www.schluter.com). The tile will also need expansion joints. The temperature swings with radiant heat can really stress rigid materials like tile.

[Gnfanatic]

wow, some very interesting stuff and I appreciate it. I am a member of Johnbridge.com :) Very cool people there. I ordered Kerdi for my bathroom that I am building right now. I have money on the side for the mud and tiling, I am lucky that my fathers friend owns a a huge tile shop, he gives me everything at cost. Its funny you mentioned the deflection detection calculator. Of all the houses I have witnessed being cemented and tiled I never saw any of these "pro's" ever use these calculations. I was always told 3/4 thick mud min! I have 3/4 tonge and groove boards with 2x6 16 inchs on center. I am going to check out the calculator and do some math. I will also draw out the rooms, measure them and the windows. Guys, its VERY hard to find a REAL pro out there. How many of these so called plumbers would go measure rooms, windows and such? I rather do my homework, take my time and do it myself. I heard so many horror stories, they make the system ineffecient, poor design, poor electrical work, who got robbed etc etc! Thanks for the info , I appreciate it. Is there some sort of calculation to meaure heat load of my house????

[jadnashua]

Just google "heat load calculator". No comment on which one(s) are any good. Many can be obtained as a free trial, so you could try several and compare the results. Some suppliers will take your house plan and calculate it for you and lay out the most efficient tubing install.

[Gnfanatic]

Thanks Jim, by the way my joists are 2x8 not 2x6 and they are sistered. so I checked out the calc on johnbridge.com and I can put tile and stone NP. I am going to do some search on google./


thanks!

[BigLou]

GN,
screw the concrete and do a staple up system, its cheaper and works better. you also save the height and weight of the concrete. You did a span cacl but did you include the added weight of the mud it self ?

My vote is still to buy the best boiler possible and add the radiant later if need be. Its a lot easier and cheaper to staple up some tubing after the fact then it is to install a new boiler. This is how I did it here spent about $6K installing the new boiler and I will add staple up radiant later when I have mroe money. I have lots of steel tube baseboards so I can still run low temp water and get the HE benefits of the boiler. I went from 1350 gallons of oil to $650 worth of gas.

I also have a quick and dirty heat load calc speadsheet if I can find it I will post it later

Lou

[Gnfanatic]

Hey lou, thanks for the post! The cal said i was good for tiles and mud but did not state how thick of mud. Can you explain what a staple up system is?? and what going on top of? cement boards?? What boiler did you go with?


thanks man!

[Gnfanatic]

Lou, I looked it up on radiantec.com and now know what you are talking about. I thought people used this type of system when they didnt want to do their floor over or they had a wood floor. It seems to be very effecient when done properly (shielded). I also thought that having the pipes in the cement is more effecient then under the floor. Looks like I am wrong. so.... put 5/8 pex under the floor with alm plates, I am going to remove the regular floor and pit 1/2 inch cement board on top of the 3/4 oak flooring?? or should I go for a 1/2 inch mud job?

thanks guys!!

[nhmaster]

So you have an in slab radiant loop that needs to maintain between 85 and maybe 110 degrees and a CI baseboard loop that will need water at 160 or better. That means, primary secondary piping along with a tempering valve or injection circulator. The boiler you use for the application can have a great effect on total system efficiency. Just looking combustion efficiencies tells you very little. If you stick with oil though, almost all moder boiler are going to give you pretty good numbers. Weil McLain, Peerless, HB Smith, Crown to name a few. When you get into the higher efficiency boilers, Viessmann, Buderus, System 2000, ect you do pick up more system efficiency and therefore you save oil. How much? Depends on a lot of factors, but the big question is payback. Will the extra 2 to 3 grand difference in price be paid back over the life of the system. Quick dirty answer is no, probably not.

[jadnashua]

None of the above:
- no tile on top of a hardwood; the hardwood changes shape too much with the seasons - the hardwood should come out entirely. You don't want to install tile on top of planks, either...you want a layer of plywood on top of them.
- unless you want the height, 1/2" cbu is a waste on the floor; 1/4" is fine
- a mudbed over wood needs to be nominally 1-1/4" thick...1/2" is WAY too thin

A membrane like Ditra is much easier to install than cbu and gives better isolation than cbu.

[Gnfanatic]

Jim, thats for the response :) I know I cannot put tild over the wood floor. Under the wood floor is a subfloor (obv). My subfloor consists of 3/4 thick plank wood (I am thinking oak). IF I put 1/2 cbu over that and then tile over that it would be leveled with the wood floors in the bedrooms. So mud is out of the question becuase 1/2-3/4 is to thin. My question to you is ditra seems to be a very thin/soft material. The site states that if you have a plank floor you need another layer of plywood over that then install ditra. Would it feel and be more solid if I use 1/2 cbu instead of 1/2 plywood?? I want to do this one and I truly appreciate you guys patience on this post.

thanks!!

[jadnashua]

You don't want ANY hardwood in your subfloor with tile on top of it. CBU is not considered structural, it's quite brittle, so for practical purposes, on a floor, thickness doesn't matter or count for strength. It's only purpose is to provide a good substrate for tile. You need a layer of ply on top of planks, and I wouldn't risk it if they are hardwood. Softwood, okay. It's not a strength issue here (the hardwood is stronger), it is a seasonal movement issue - the hardwood just moves too much.

Plus, screwing or nailing cbu down where there's hardwood underneath will likely cause tenting and be a major pain to install. Remember, the goal is 100% support under the tile - the thinset under the CBU provides that if done properly, but you need to anchor it to the subfloor, and it would be really tough if there's hardwood under there, regardless of the fact that it moves too much.

If you need height, thicker cbu is okay, but additional ply adds strength. I'm a fan of Ditra - easy to cut, easy to carry, thinner, and provides more decoupling than cbu. if you haven't done it, the large quantity of screws (or nails if you want to use them on a subfloor) can be a major pain to get down. If you use nails, for a non-pro, since they don't get recessed like a screw, it's more of a pain to spread the thinset. With the screws, if you're off a little, the head can be high (if you use them, get the ones with the square drive head...less likely to strip the head when driving them in).

Don't obsess over trying to keep the levels between rooms exact...transitions are not a big deal if done right, and are easy between tile and hardwood.

[Gnfanatic]

Thanks Jim, my planks are def soft. I will use plywood instead of the cbu. I will order Ditra next week from tilexperts in NJ. Quick question for ya. 1/2 inch ply or 3/4?

[GrumpyPlumber]

I only skimmed this thread, so some details have likely gotten past me.

I saw mention of a budget of $6k, with a desire to install a Buderus.
The Buderus alone will cost about $3,500 for the GB 125 (most likey the model for a 1600 sq/ft home) alone.

Circ's, relays, copper tubing (required copper manifold with Buderus) and overall miscelleneous parts for radiant loops will as much as double that.

I also noticed the mention of Keyspan (now Nat'l grid, services MA, NY, NJ) it looks like you'd like to attempt to tackle this install yourself, Keyspan won't turn on the gas unless it's being done by a licensed plumber or gas fitter.

As for cost justification -
Your big savings will come from the simple coversion from oil to gas regardless how efficiant the boiler is, you'll likely save big.

A gallon of oil is the equivalence to 1.4 therms (CCF) of Nat. gas, at a current price of $1.80 per therm vs $4 a gallon of oil, do some math.
The gas equivalence is about $2.50.

The Burnham gets 85% as opposed to the Buderus's 95%, which is CONDITIONAL that the Buderus operate at a temperature of 140.
Standard baseboard heat would not have reasonable enough recovery at that temperature.

That 10% difference is looked at in terms of fractional...you'd have a tenth the efficiancy increase with a buderus over a Burnham SCG to justify a price difference from $900 to $3500...ONLY if you invest the added money for radiant floor heat and add heat exchangers with seperate circ's and the added manifolds.

Your $6k budget is shot, for stock alone.

I have to mention that I think you may be underestimating the value of the cost vs savings in this case, as well as the potential difficulty involved in the work.

You may want to call Keyspan (nat'l grid) before you make further plans on budget, I doubt they'll allow you to do this yourself without a licensed pro.

The heat portion of the job could theoretically be done by you, but the boiler, the gas and meter connection cannot be done by anyone aside from a licensed guy.

Also, be mindful that the MFG warranties are void when not installed by a professional.

[Gnfanatic]

Grumpyplumber, thansk for the excellent post. I am looking at the Weil-Mclain ultra series unit and a in-direct. I do know that Keyspan wants a lic plumber. My idea was to do all the work (raidiant,baseboards,elec,run all the lines etc) and get a lic plumber to connect gas and meter. I am single guy and make so much, I cant afford to hire a crew to do it.
"That 10% difference is looked at in terms of fractional...you'd have a tenth the efficiancy increase with a buderus over a Burnham SCG to justify a price difference from $900 to $3500...ONLY if you invest the added money for radiant floor heat and add heat exchangers with seperate circ's and the added manifolds".

Interesting stuff, so that 10% difference costs me an extra $3000. Sometimes i wonder if it is worth going for the ultra effecient units with such a small house? BTW, the baseboard's in the bedrooms are cast iron. I dont know wwhat temp they need to run at but I always ehard they are more effeient then the reg base board rads.
Grumpyplumber, what state are you located in that you know keyspan well?

thanks!

[GrumpyPlumber]

Gn, I'm Mass.
You NEED to call plumbers asap.
You've made an assumption that will likely land you disappointment.

I'll be honest, if you were to call me and say you'd done all the work & just want me to get the inspection..I probably wouldn't get back to you...most won't hold themselves liable for your work, nor risk being caught allowing someone else to work on their license.

In your situation, I'd go well out of my way to talk you out of anything extravagant with the budget you mentioned...the amount you save percentage wise is trivial when you do the real math in lieu of your circumstance.

A Buderus functions at 95+% efficient when run at 140 or less, you already mentioned you need to heat a portion of the home with radiators, so now you're running it at 160, which will still give you a slower recovery time.
You'll be running at about 90% to 92% efficient at that temperature.

Thats 5% better than the $900 boiler.

If your heat bill comes to $1200 a year, a 5% difference comes to $60.

The boiler, stock and labor your getting into will add thousands to your stock bill alone, not to mention the amount of work is substantial.

IF you had a gas bill of $5k per year, it might be worth the payoff...but I doubt you fit in that category, especially NOT with a $6k budget.

Also, missed this detail...you said you were converting from steam heat w/oil.

Is the current radiator system a one, or two pipe system?

If it's a one pipe, you are into major repiping, to the extent that a steam replacement with gas might be a better option price wise.

You really need to have the whole situation scoped by a pro.

My impression is that you're getting "swiss cheese" info...and interperetting a convenient outcome based on relatively few parameters...please think these things through before you dig a hole, talk to a pro and get some realistic idea's in real life.

[Gnfanatic]

grumpy. thanks again. I had a single pipe system with the radiators in the walls.The system was very old and there was no insualtion behind the rads (obv). So I removed the pipes and the rads, insulated the walls and closed the holes up. Yes, things are getting confusing on what path to take. I will call some plumbers during the week and make some appointments. I gaurantee I will have 10 diff designs, 10 diff amounts and all that good stuff. Looks like I am going to skip the exp boiler and go for Keyspans deal. I get 40% off at blackmans so that obv helps buying the stuff. I will see what the plumbers have to say. I still would rather do it myself.

[BigLou]

Grumpy,

gota disagree with your premise that a 10% gain in efficiency is a 10% savings. A HE boiler will modulate as well as operate at a higher efficiency. On a warm day(40 degrees) you not only get 95% efficiency if you set it up right but you avoid short cycling and only make the amount of BTU's you need. This is where the real savings come in If the unit is slightly undersized it will almost always operate at peak efficiency

Its a lot like how your driving habits can affect your fuel mileage

Most standard boiler efficiency ratings are overblown and in reality are in the high 70% range. as I recall they use a delta T of 40 degrees to rate that we both know thats not real world.

Whats a G125 ? I see a GB124 and thats not their high efficiency model.

I went from a standard oversized oil boiler using 1350 gallons/year to a GB142 and my gas bill for the year is a hell of a lot less then $1200 maybe $800 tops and my house is poorly insulated.

Too bad he got rid of his old radiators they would have worked perfectly with a new HE boiler run 110 degree water through them 24/7 and watch the savings pile up

I think before you tell some one they are only going to save $60 you should get your facts straight. The actually savings will be a lot more

Lou

[GrumpyPlumber]

Lou,
My facts were straight, read again..I wasn't comparing oil to gas in that 10% figure.
You didn't read it all.

Read it, I said switching to a gas boiler with the same efficiency as the old oil boiler will save him at least 30% off his fuel bill and his old oil burner is likely operating closer to the 70% mark. (Therm to BTU per gal comparison...read it)

The 10% figure was a rough figure ONLY comparing the two types of GAS boilers.

I have two individual customers from last summer that have given me copies of their gas bills since last summer and the previous year.

Both were gas before replaceing the boilers.

One was a Buderus, the other a Burnham SCG (85%)

The Burnham has saved my customer MORE money than the Buderus.

Why?

The Burnham customer has a massively larger bill, but more importantly the comparison is for a boiler that was literally falling apart.

His gas bill has come down 40% over the year, with no DHW.

The buderus customer has a newer home, heavily insulated and his old gas bill was about $1200 a year.
The boiler I replaced wasn't quite as old, he just wanted to decrease his "carbon footprint".

His gas bill has come out to 25% less over the year, with DHW.

These comparison were figured by THERM useage, NOT the actual bill, as gas prices have increased.

Your situation was unquestionably an old oil boiler burning at extemely low efficiency as well as being oversized ...you were basically heating the sky above.

Peeked on the Buderus site, and it appears the model #'s have changed.

I believe one of this sites moderators has a 125, maybe he'll correct me, but for the point it's splitting hairs.

Do a web search for the 125 and you'll see them on sale on auction sites.

You're right, he should NEVER have removed any piping, BIG mistake.

Your boiler running at 110 is definitely going to optimize it's performance, you're getting the full 95.9% efficiency, but at that temperature you're either already piped for radiant floor heat or you live in a southern state.

If you attempt to run a boiler at 110 for standard radiator or baseboard heat, you'll definitely get 95%, but you'll be running MUCH more frequently to try to heat your home as the boiler tries to keep up.

THIS is what I meant by "swiss cheese", you CANNOT run a boiler at 110 in the northern states and get reasonable recovery in the colder months on radiators.

That temp works on radiant floor with the larger area coverage.

Gn has radiators (some that he removed, unfortunately), he's in my area of the country where it gets very cold in the winter.
He has a budget of $6k and would have to add a fairly complicated heat exchanger set-up to get the floor temps down to 110-130 yet still be able to keep the existing radiators operating at a feasible temperature.

Lou, get your facts straight.

[nhmaster]

Let's try to clarify a couple things. You said the house had steam heat? so it's an older house I assume. Then you want to put radiant piping in a few rooms in conctrete so I am assuming that you are or have stripped the house down to the framing? And you have existing CI base in a couple bedrooms?

Lets start at the start so to speak. # 1, you are going to need a design professional to come out and heat loss the house first. This is vital, especially with radiant heat. As nice as radiant is ( I have it in my house) It does not react rapidly to tempreture changes and it can not supply the same btu\hr that baseboard and radiators can. I'm betting that if this is an old house, you will more than likley require supplimental heat in the radiant zone. Either baseboard or radiators or even toe space heaters.

#2 Balancing loop temperatures. The in pour radiant will take slightly higher temps than say an in slab loop would take, but still signifigantly lower that the Baseboard loops. That means primary secondary piping or hydronic separator ( I prefer) and either a tempering valve or an injection circulator for the radiant loop, along with the appropriate floor sensor. ( I like Tekmar )
Loop pipe sizing and spacing can only be done properly by designing from the heat loss\load calculations. 1/2" os normally used but occsionally 5/8 may be required.

#3 Cost. With a new boiler (anybodys) piping, valves, controls and misc. stuff you are looking at at least $ 7,500.00 for the materials alone and around 15 to 20 grand to have the system installed.

You are in Mass so Grumpy is correct, you can't get the sign off without a license. Pretty depressing Huh? If I were you, I'd drop the radiant idea. Put in a fairly high efficiency gas boiler (you pick- go on web-investigate) and put baseboard back in along with a boiler temp modulating control. (Tekmar) Radiant heat is not necessaraly more efficient, just more comfortable.

[BigLou]

Lou,
My facts were straight, read again..I wasn't comparing oil to gas in that 10% figure.
You didn't read it all.

Read it, I said switching to a gas boiler with the same efficiency as the old oil boiler will save him at least 30% off his fuel bill and his old oil burner is likely operating closer to the 70% mark. (Therm to BTU per gal comparison...read it)

The 10% figure was a rough figure ONLY comparing the two types of GAS boilers.

Grumpy I did read it and I disagee that a 10% increase in efficiency equates to a 10% decrease in fuel bills. If that is all you get you don't have the thing programmed correctly. I agree that gas is much less costly per BTU then oil also a lot cleaner and more reliable.



I have two individual customers from last summer that have given me copies of their gas bills since last summer and the previous year.

Both were gas before replaceing the boilers.

One was a Buderus, the other a Burnham SCG (85%)

The Burnham has saved my customer MORE money than the Buderus.

Why?

The Burnham customer has a massively larger bill, but more importantly the comparison is for a boiler that was literally falling apart.

His gas bill has come down 40% over the year, with no DHW.

The buderus customer has a newer home, heavily insulated and his old gas bill was about $1200 a year.
The boiler I replaced wasn't quite as old, he just wanted to decrease his "carbon footprint".

His gas bill has come out to 25% less over the year, with DHW.

These comparison were figured by THERM useage, NOT the actual bill, as gas prices have increased.

What kinda buderus ? I am talking about the GB142 capeable of 98% efficiency if set up right and allowed to modulate. Running almost all day at a low water temp if highly efficient. Modulating boilers are great for this sort of application as they can always raise the water temp as demand dictates.



Your situation was unquestionably an old oil boiler burning at extemely low efficiency as well as being oversized ...you were basically heating the sky above.

Old and oversized yes but not any more or less then anything else out there today. All non modulatiing boilers are oversized for the application 99% of the time



Peeked on the Buderus site, and it appears the model #'s have changed.

I believe one of this sites moderators has a 125, maybe he'll correct me, but for the point it's splitting hairs.

Do a web search for the 125 and you'll see them on sale on auction sites.

Model numbers do make a big difference, try ordering parts or supplying a customer with the wrong model number and see what happens. the GB124 is a standard replacement model, the GB142 is a modulating condensing model BIG DIFFERENCE. maybe we are comparing apples to oranges here .



You're right, he should NEVER have removed any piping, BIG mistake.

yes always get a good design in place before you do any demo saves a lot in the long run. My system was designed by a licensed plumber who also has a batchlors degree in Mechanical Engineering and is working on his PE stamp.



Your boiler running at 110 is definitely going to optimize it's performance, you're getting the full 95.9% efficiency, but at that temperature you're either already piped for radiant floor heat or you live in a southern state.

If you attempt to run a boiler at 110 for standard radiator or baseboard heat, you'll definitely get 95%, but you'll be running MUCH more frequently to try to heat your home as the boiler tries to keep up.

Ok perhaps I miss represented my self here and I want to say I am sorry. I can run 110 water but not all winter long and I don't live in a southern state. I do however manage to spend at least 80% of my running time in condensing mode. I can do this because I have way to much steel fin tube baseboards left over from the old oversized system. I do not have in floor radiant yet. Perhaps you are of the old school but with my HE systems long run times are not a problem they are desired for them. They respond to demand by increasing output temp not run time. This is where Mod/Con boilers justify thier cost. Making 85,000 BTU when the home only needs 35,000 is a waste talk about heating the sky.



THIS is what I meant by "swiss cheese", you CANNOT run a boiler at 110 in the northern states and get reasonable recovery in the colder months on radiators.

I agree with the swiss cheese info and that you can't always run 110 degree water but I would wager you could keep that radiator at 110 50% of the heating season and have a comfortable room . What does recovery have to do with it ????? comfort is attained by keeping the room a constant temp, not by letting it swing up a down. My buderus even has a setting for CONSTANT CIRCULATION.



That temp works on radiant floor with the larger area coverage.

Gn has radiators (some that he removed, unfortunately), he's in my area of the country where it gets very cold in the winter.
He has a budget of $6k and would have to add a fairly complicated heat exchanger set-up to get the floor temps down to 110-130 yet still be able to keep the existing radiators operating at a feasible temperature.

Lou, get your facts straight.
My facts are straight
We agree again that $6k is unrealistic unless he has a licensed plumber who will do it for free like I did. The mixing valve is close to a grand alone last time I checked, however if you make the whole house radiant one is not needed with new mod/con boiler because you can set the temp in the boiler to only be 130 degrees tops. Its also not nearly as cold around here as you make it sound. I live in western Massachusetts near springfield where do you live ? I want to say the average day time temp is like 35-40 degrees in the middle of winter. Its new worthy when we have more then five days in a row below freezing. I would still want heat at 35 but its not nearly the damnd on the 1-2 nites a year when it drops to 10 below. This is a common design temp around here that leads to the majority of the systems being oversized

I respect all your experience and knowledge but I think maybe you need to go back to school and learn the new way of things.

Lou

[nhmaster]

I guess we can all agree that this job can't be done for 6 grand, yes? So what's this poor fellow to do? His house is torn apart, It's August with September on his door step, he has no heat and only 6 grand in his pocket. In my opinion his only option is to put an non condensing high efficiency gas boiler in and run baseboard in the house. You can spend a whole lot of money chasing after the highest efficiency but you will pay a premium for every efficiency point gained. Most often to the point of no return. It makes no sense to spend 20 grand on a system that has a 20 year return. Who's to say the system will even be viable in 20 years?

[BigLou]

I guess we can all agree that this job can't be done for 6 grand, yes? So what's this poor fellow to do? His house is torn apart, It's August with September on his door step, he has no heat and only 6 grand in his pocket. In my opinion his only option is to put an non condensing high efficiency gas boiler in and run baseboard in the house. You can spend a whole lot of money chasing after the highest efficiency but you will pay a premium for every efficiency point gained. Most often to the point of no return. It makes no sense to spend 20 grand on a system that has a 20 year return. Who's to say the system will even be viable in 20 years?

I guess thats a good of a solution as any. But I still think he is better off with the best boiler he can afford even if its hooked up to baseboard Gas aint going to get any cheaper

Lou
PS
how did I get an avatar ?

[GrumpyPlumber]

Lou, yes, the Buderus can be set to operate conditionally for BTU output.
However, there is no "non-condensing" mode...it's always condensing.
If not, yer in deep doo-doo when the plastic exhaust pipe gets hit with it.

It modulates based on delta T & exterior temperature sensor.

READ your MFG manual, the efficiency may go up if you run the boiler to max at 110, but the boiler runs longer, that means it eats gas while running, thats not calculus there.
The in depth technique to adjusting the temperature is in the "hidden" control panel on that hard to see knob the displays the temp settings in BOLD type, real mechanical stuff there.

You stated you had been using over 1300 gallons of fuel oil and went to an $800 gas bill.

Add that up, a gallon of oil has the same BTU output of 1.4 therms, I think you maybe meant 1300 dollars(?)

1300 gallons would be a $5k+ fuel oil bill, a far stretch with a current gas bill of $800.

So, you're new Buderus is 7 times more efficient eh?
That means your oil boiler was operating at around 14% efficient...but then, my calculus is rusty, gotta grab a team of engineers for dat one.

I betcha you know how to tweak that bad larry to get the gas co to pay you back...huh?

All things aside, with you being the expert and me just grabbing at straws...I'd just like to get back to the purpose of my interjecture here:


well with only 6K that kinda limits you.
1)I think you should buy the highest efficiency boiler you can afford. I recomend buderus.
2) what kinda tank ? an inderect fired hotwater tank is a must
3) what exactly are you trying to do ? there is a lot more to it then just pick a size also concrete is the worst medium for radiant are you adding this in an addition ? how were the rooms heated before hand ? maybe forego the radiant now and buy a better boiler

Lou


I get silly there sometimes and recommend cheaper boilers when the budget is that low.
But, I apparently need some schoolin'.

I wonder at what point he realized he had the budget and built up the courage to rip out all those pesky radiators?

Oh, I guess it looks like Gn is in good hands here, maybe I oughtta just back out and let you do the advizin'...silly me, pardon the interuption.

Hope his wiring can handle the space heaters this winter.

See, you and I can chuckle at the funny repartoire, it's all in fun as we exchange snyde comments.

I am curious about how much chucklin' our friend is doing right now though.

[BigLou]

Grumpy,
I can see how you got your name, tell me where in MA you are and I will take you out for some coffee and try to put you in a better mood.

I stand by my statement that GN should do the best he can for the money what ever that may be.

Your wrong about the always in condensing mode sorry but unless you can explain to me how you are going to get a 45 degree change in temp when running at `180 its not condensing plain and simple. it has a max exhaust temp of 155 so how does it do that and have 135 degree water ?

you adjust the line that determines the temp on the AM10 module not the knob on the slide out control panel just so you know, you do have to take the cover off.

By my math the old unit was about 35-45% efficient due to lots and lots of short cycling. I know you may not understand this but short cycling is the enemy, on a 15 minute cycle I bet about 25% of the energy goes to heating up the system NOT HEATING YOUR HOME. sounds like a waste to me

I don't see the problem with it sipping gas for longer time periods its still more efficient the using lots and lots of gas for a 10-20 minute run time. I think you are just set in your ways and afraid of change

People like you who refuse to learn and change are why we can't move forward in this country. I know your a licensed plumber and I am not but that still does not mean your right. maybe its time to teach the old dog some new tricks

Sorry if i am sounding disrespectful and poking jabs at you. I do respect you for all you experience and knowledge and the coffee offer is for real. But just because you have been at this as long as I have been alive does not make you always right. If you have not been at this at least 27 years I appoligize for calling you old

Lou

[GrumpyPlumber]

Lou, you hook this fella up.

You offered the great advice on how $6k would do it.

Get him out of this jamb.

You can entice me into a really productive debate on why the Buderus condenses and why your a better thumb wrestler too while your at it.

Problem not resolved.

You gave him the go ahead with a $6k budget to buy a $3,500 boiler and install radiant.

He effectively proceeded to remove his current heating system & rip apart his home in full confidence.

Condensing, by the way, refers to the exhaust...the heat removed from the expelled gas is so great that it causes vaporized liquid to re-condense, you just made the argument.

Steam is created at 210...think, think hard.

Buderus's max temp is 196 for the DHW, by the way.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Grumpy,
I can see how you got your name, tell me where in MA you are and I will take you out for some coffee and try to put you in a better mood.

I stand by my statement that GN should do the best he can for the money what ever that may be.

Your wrong about the always in condensing mode sorry but unless you can explain to me how you are going to get a 45 degree change in temp when running at `180 its not condensing plain and simple. it has a max exhaust temp of 155 so how does it do that and have 135 degree water ?

you adjust the line that determines the temp on the AM10 module not the knob on the slide out control panel just so you know, you do have to take the cover off.

By my math the old unit was about 35-45% efficient due to lots and lots of short cycling. I know you may not understand this but short cycling is the enemy, on a 15 minute cycle I bet about 25% of the energy goes to heating up the system NOT HEATING YOUR HOME. sounds like a waste to me

I don't see the problem with it sipping gas for longer time periods its still more efficient the using lots and lots of gas for a 10-20 minute run time. I think you are just set in your ways and afraid of change

People like you who refuse to learn and change are why we can't move forward in this country. I know your a licensed plumber and I am not but that still does not mean your right. maybe its time to teach the old dog some new tricks

Sorry if i am sounding disrespectful and poking jabs at you. I do respect you for all you experience and knowledge and the coffee offer is for real. But just because you have been at this as long as I have been alive does not make you always right. If you have not been at this at least 27 years I appoligize for calling you old

Lou

Lou, I'll buy the coffee and you can throw it in my face if thats what it takes for you to see my point.

The guys home is in pieces, he has no heat, a short supply of money, and summer is almost over.

I understand the "feel good" intentions of helping someone out with your personal experience, but...what exactly did that do here?

[nhmaster]

There seems to be some confusion on the condensing issue. The Buderus gb series, the Baxi's and the Viessmanns are all condensing boilers. When the boiler is fired, reqardless of modulated input, the boiler condenses.

So what's the difference in AFUE? between that and a non condensing boiler, say the Weil McLain GV series? 95 afue vs 84 afue and a little more than a grand in cost. so for the extra thou you pick up about 11% afue. You also pick up some additional install costs. Is it worth the extra? Your call. For my money probably not. Though I like Buderus products I think the cast iron weil mclain gives you more bang for the buck in terms of service and longevity.

[GrumpyPlumber]

I recall my first conversation with the "boiler man" at the supply when I asked how the boiler could still condense at 180.
He made the point very simple with the 210/steam reverse effect.

Though you get less condensation at higher temps (and lower efficiency), it still condenses.

[nhmaster]

Absoluty correct. In fact if they did not condense there would be a hell of a problem in the venting department as the excedssive temperature melted the silicone gaskets.

[BigLou]

Lou, you hook this fella up.

You offered the great advice on how $6k would do it.

Get him out of this jamb.

You can entice me into a really productive debate on why the Buderus condenses and why your a better thumb wrestler too while your at it.

Problem not resolved.

You gave him the go ahead with a $6k budget to buy a $3,500 boiler and install radiant.

I did ? I think I said $6k was not going to work. I think I told him to abandon the radiant idea for now and install something cheaper but maybe I am losing my mind.



He effectively proceeded to remove his current heating system & rip apart his home in full confidence.

I am fairly confident that he had already ripped his home apart and did not do so on my advising



Condensing, by the way, refers to the exhaust...the heat removed from the expelled gas is so great that it causes vaporized liquid to re-condense, you just made the argument.

Right I get that part. Unless I missed the boat this usually happens at around 140-135 degrees, so 155 is still 15 degrees above that point. While some gas may condense out in the flue the boiler is not actively condensing. But hey maybe I am all wrong.



Steam is created at 210...think, think hard.

Buderus's max temp is 196 for the DHW, by the way.

Ok so steam is created at 210 at the right atmospheric pressure, and the unit has a max temp of 196. This has what to do with anything ????

I see you point the guy needs to take action and fast if he wants to be warm this winter. I also see your point that he is very limited on his budget and this will impact the decisions he has to make. I still think he should get the most efficient boiler he can possibly afford even if its hooked up to baseboard Its going to be worth it in the long run. GAS IS NOT GETTING ANY CHEAPER!!!!!!!

[BigLou]

Absoluty correct. In fact if they did not condense there would be a hell of a problem in the venting department as the excedssive temperature melted the silicone gaskets.

UMMMM most if not all silicone is good to at least 500 degreees. I agree you would have one hell of a problem if the flue gasses were 500 degrees in a PVC pipe.

[Gnfanatic]

guys, sheesh! Their are many ways to skin a cat :) Please dont get into arguments, you all have you own idea's which is great. I spoke to my friend who is a plumber. He is a licensed plumber for my area. Due to the tight money i am going to take adv of keyspans $899 deal. He is going to do all the paperwork and such, and will pick up the unit for me. I also heard I can install something outside the house that will make the unit more effecient as well. Up to 90% he stated?? Someone asked me why the radiant flooring? well why not? Its 79 cents a foot for the oxy barrier , i do realize I need manifolds and such, I heard its the most effecient system to go with . Guys , not only my system was very old but those big ass rad's were in my walls and had no installation behind them.I was spending $300 a month on oil when the house was at 60 degrees!! Thats why I ripped them out. I have ALOT of Burnhad cast iron baseboard rad's! I can do my whole house with them instead of the radiant heating but I thought radiant was the way to go!! SO, should I jsut use the burnhams and forget about radiant???? I forgot to mention to you guys I am not living in this house yet, I sure wish I was!! Worse comes to worse, I jsut wont have heat this winter. All my water lines are empty. Another thing, I myself installed all new sheetrock, high qaulity installtion (better then r13), Anderson 400 series windows and r40 in the attic, all walls and outlets are sealed. So the house is well insulated.

thanks guys!!

[BigLou]

Ralph,

I would save your money and go with the baseboards. Heavy basebaords like that will produce nice even comfortable heat. You also can't beat the price right ?

Before you take the keyspan deal. Remember they are in business to sell you gas not save you money. They plan on your gas bill being high enough to pay off the money they are subsidizing the unit with. Don't believe what anybody tells you about installing something outside and getting 90% efficiency. Unless you start condensing its just not possible. There are a few things you can install that will help with short cycling and what not. They however will not make an 80% efficient unit 90% just not possible

goood luck

Lou

[Gnfanatic]

Grumpy, I removed the system months ago :) One of things I really dont understand is the cost os the radiant system you guys are taling about. Sounds like it costs alot?? I guess I am mis-informed but these sites I go on like radianttec.com tells you how to install one without costing alot of money. It was in my head that radiant for the living room, kitchen and bath would cost me about $1000 in materials? At least thats what it looks like on their site.


:)

[Gnfanatic]

Good mornin Lou :) I agree about Keyspan, they have us by the nuts, its a monopoly. So no I dont trust them. So I have the baseboards here, for free. Pex wont cost much to hook them up. So the money I save on the radiant idea I should put it towards a more effecient unit, correct?

[GrumpyPlumber]

Gn...thats great news.
The outdoor thing he's talking about is a temperature sensor, smart move, but make sure you have the essentials first, that can be added later..NH mentioned it earlier this thread.

Also, Gn, the Buderus GB142 cost me $3,800 a year ago, I imagine it's gone up since...I STRONGLY suggest you talk with your plumber regarding what stock you still need before depleting that much of what you have left in your budget.

You still need Circs, relay, electrician w/permits for the co detector (inspector will require it) as well as a myriad of other stock & hardware.

Lou, puuulllleease...condensing is condensing is condensing, I find it particularly funny that you tell me I need some schoolin' when I don't agree with your mistake.

I know that 50 is the new 40 and 30 is the new 20..so I guess 27 is the new 17, where you know everything there is to know about everything.

nhMaster is a licensed plumbing instructor & shop owner who's job is to stay well abreast of anything new for both, if he tells me something, I listen.

Telling me I need to get up to date with the new stuff is cute, I think as you proceed in your well informed debate you're likely giving many a quiet chuckle.

I'm nowhere near as old as you think, the picture I use isn't me.

If you don't know who that pic is, you missed my whole "schtick".

[GrumpyPlumber]

Good mornin Lou :) I agree about Keyspan, they have us by the nuts, its a monopoly. So no I dont trust them. So I have the baseboards here, for free. Pex wont cost much to hook them up. So the money I save on the radiant idea I should put it towards a more effecient unit, correct?

He may not realize the cost of the GB142...read what I posted above, sounds like you don't have the extra $4k for the boiler alone.

Also, if you go for the SCG, be VERY sure you talk to your plumber about it's location vs windows, doors and vent length...the SS vent can add up to a BIG portion of your cost...there's a bit of strategy involved in locating the boiler.

[Gnfanatic]

hhhmmm, man, sounds like I screwed up or what? The reason i removed the radiators and pipes were because
1-) No installation in the walls behind rads
2-) system was old.
3-) Someone told me its an old steam system, they arent effecient at all ( agreed to this becuase I saw the oil I was using). the system had black steel pipes. I thought these pipes were only used for steam, I never saw someone else's house with black pipes, always copper. so I thought they were useless as well.

[GrumpyPlumber]

hhhmmm, man, sounds like I screwed up or what? The reason i removed the radiators and pipes were because
1-) No installation in the walls behind rads
2-) system was old.
3-) Someone told me its an old steam system, they arent effecient at all ( agreed to this becuase I saw the oil I was using). the system had black steel pipes. I thought these pipes were only used for steam, I never saw someone else's house with black pipes, always copper. so I thought they were useless as well.

Yes, you made some mistakes, potentially costly ones.

At this point it's best you work on NOT making more costly mistakes as well as incorporating your plumbers advice.
He see's the layout and design firsthand, we don't...and some of the advice here might not be the best advice (the internet is a great place to play expert).

Those black pipes are alot more common that you think, they could have been partly used to convert to hydronic and have been a part of your system, but thats history.
I see steam conversions all the time, the copper you see is on newer homes.

Copper is very expensive as well, not to mention time consuming over just reusing the steel (black) that you removed.

Steam is generally a little less efficient than gas, but in your case with your budget it might have been a viable option over the small percentage of difference in efficiency.

Again, the BIG savings in your case is the simple conversion from oil to gas.

[Gnfanatic]

Hey grumpy, so unf I screwed up. I would like to use Pex instead of copper which will save me money as well. At least I have the burnhams I can use. When you talk about the layout and design. Do you mean size of rooms, location of rooms, location of windows and size of windows?

[nhmaster]

There is a misconception that cast iron baseboard or for that matter radiators are more efficient. Just not true and If you take a minute to think about it you will agree. Cast iron rads are great for comfort, they "radiate" warmth into the room. I have them in my house because I like them, but they are not more efficient than copper fin tube baseboard. Why? Copper fin tube baseboard is designed to take the heat from the water and release it into the room as quickly as possible. In other words if everything was "perfect" you could put 180 degree water in one end and have room temperature come out the other. ( a perfecdt delta T) In reality that can't and doesn't happen for a lot of technical reasons, however copper fin tube is a more efficient method of heat transfer than cast iron radiators. Conversly a heating system that holds less water is more efficient because the fire doesn't have to heat a large volume of water before it is delivered to the fin tube. Boilers have gotten smaller and hold less volume of water for a reason. Ideally the boiler itself is able to extract and deliver as much heat from the fire as possible. That's why low volume boilers are so efficient. Condensing is merely a by product of the boilers ability to extract and deliver that heat. You can make anything condense just by lowering the firing rate and or moving water at low temperatures thorugh the vessell. As an aside a steel boiler will be more efficient than cast iron because steel transfers heat better. Radiant heat is not more efficient. It is more comfortable. Maximum efficiency would be an open flame in your living room. Thats 100% heat transfer. There is always a trade off when an exchanger is involves and another reason why forced hot air is more efficient. A forced hot air furnace only has one exchange. A forced hot water system has two.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Nh is correct, also, large radiators hold more heated water...
Once the t-stat is satisfied, they continue to release heat much more so than baseboard.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Hey grumpy, so unf I screwed up. I would like to use Pex instead of copper which will save me money as well. At least I have the burnhams I can use. When you talk about the layout and design. Do you mean size of rooms, location of rooms, location of windows and size of windows?

Talk to your plumber about using the correct pex, the wrong kind can easily shorten the life of your new boiler.

[Gnfanatic]

guys, will my rads keep a tiled floor warm as well? Thats why I wanted to put radiant in the first place. I dont want cold tiles!

[GrumpyPlumber]

Hey grumpy, so unf I screwed up. I would like to use Pex instead of copper which will save me money as well. At least I have the burnhams I can use. When you talk about the layout and design. Do you mean size of rooms, location of rooms, location of windows and size of windows?

That and the exhaust.
Code is very strict on distance from windows, doors and other openings/outlets from co exhaust.

It's a "strategy" finding the best location to put the boiler vs expense on SS venting in conjunction with some other variables to find the most cost effective placement.

[GrumpyPlumber]

guys, will my rads keep a tiled floor warm as well? Thats why I wanted to put radiant in the first place. I dont want cold tiles!

Nope.

However, where your floors are already ripped up, you could consider running loops as a predictive measure for future use.

Right now, it looks like you just don't have the money for the additional hardware to do radiant, you might skim enough loot to add pex lines under the flloor and leave stubs below.

Talk to your plumber about this to make sure you do it smart and not paint yourself into a corner later on.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Also, Gn...you may have to come down to Earth on a few expectations.

I understand all things petroleum are very expensive, but it seems to me like you might be expecting caviar and champagne on a fast food budget.

You haven't a lot of time to waste exploring options.
Get your plumber to schedule this, get Keyspan (nat'l grid) on the phone, get the ball rolling.

You need to prioritize getting the boiler and getting it up and running...maybe your area is different, but Nat'l grid has been VERY difficult to get on the phone, the populace it seems, is inundating them with requests.

[Cass]

Grump....check your PMs

[GrumpyPlumber]

Grump....check your PMs

Done buddy, will do tomorrow...Pats season's a comin'!

[BigLou]

Good mornin Lou :) I agree about Keyspan, they have us by the nuts, its a monopoly. So no I dont trust them. So I have the baseboards here, for free. Pex wont cost much to hook them up. So the money I save on the radiant idea I should put it towards a more effecient unit, correct?

My debate with grumpy aside. On the advice of a MA licensed plumber who also has an ENGINEERING DEGREE who designs heating systems for a living and will soon have his Massachusetts Professional Engineer license so he can stamp plans for heating systems for large commercial buildings. I bought the best boiler I could afford and the pay off has been huge. The largest gas bill I saw was for $147 dollars in the month of FEB 2008. That was keeping the house extra warm due to my son who was born in Dec. It even exceeded my friends expectations who said if its around $225, $250 be happy. I hear of some people with $500/month gas bills.

My total out of pocket cost for a GB142 and all the supplies to make it work was a little under $5500 if I remember correctly. My friend installed it for free because I sided his house. Last year gas networks was offering a $1000.00 rebate I belive they are still offering the same thing this year.

The way I see it I save about $500/year at current cost over a standard boiler. for what ended up being a $1,500 upcharge(before the $1000 rebate instead of a $500) over the standard gas replacement I will have broke even in 2 years. I know it was only $1500 more becuase we priced a complete standard system with the double walled vent pipe(thats where they get you).

Like grumpy said only your plumber knows the conditions at your house and can tell you where and how this thing will have to be installed. At my house we needed quite a bit of stainless steel vent pipe.

One other bit of added efficiency for the mod/con is they are sealed combustion. They do not negativly pressurize your home and draw in cold air that then needs to be heated

[Gnfanatic]

Hey Grump, I truly hope i am driving you guys crazy! I really aprpeciate the help!!! there is a 10 week wait to run the line to my house!! I am going to get the permits and paperwork ASAP.

-I will install radiant in my floor for future use.
- My old boiler which is on a slab (obv) is directly below the chimney. I know I need to install a SS chimney liner for it, or it wont pass code.

-I have a choice here. Either I slowly build the system I really want and possibly not have heat this winter OR build something in my budget and not have the effeiceny and choices I originally wanted???

I can slowly build the system with a kick ass boiler, I know it will be more then $6000 for everything. i will slowly build it up when money allows.

Am I crazy for thinking this? I am pissing you guys off? i hope not!

[BigLou]

You still need Circs, relay, electrician w/permits for the co detector (inspector will require it) as well as a myriad of other stock & hardware.


If his system is all ripped out already won't he need these things no matter what kind of boiler he goes with ? ???


Lou, puuulllleease...condensing is condensing is condensing, I find it particularly funny that you tell me I need some schoolin' when I don't agree with your mistake.

where did I make a mistake ? show me ? I guess my truck has a condensing motor because some of the exhaust condenses in the tail pipe



I know that 50 is the new 40 and 30 is the new 20..so I guess 27 is the new 17, where you know everything there is to know about everything.

now thats just funny. its old enough to get out of college and know a few things but thats about all. At least I don't always think I am right



nhMaster is a licensed plumbing instructor & shop owner who's job is to stay well abreast of anything new for both, if he tells me something, I listen.

Thats nice glad you listen to some one.



Telling me I need to get up to date with the new stuff is cute, I think as you proceed in your well informed debate you're likely giving many a quiet chuckle.

I'm nowhere near as old as you think, the picture I use isn't me.

If you don't know who that pic is, you missed my whole "schtick".

I am well aware of who the pic is and that its obiously not you. I am glad that the all knowing plumbers on this form a getting a chuckle out of this. Its always better to laugh at people then to learn from them right ?

Lou

[GrumpyPlumber]

Lou, for once your figures make sense, $5500 sounds about right for stock only with a 2 zone and existing pipes in place.

NOT in Ng's case, his stuff is ripped out, also it's a one pipe sytem that needs substantial work.

The $5k to $800 figure remains in question, though oil does have a substantially higher cost and your old boiler was no question short cycling, thats a bit off.

Now, factor in the radiant and maybe you finally understand the dilemma Ng is in, having ripped out his baseboard...also the added work of re-installing the removed piping & radiators.

Your friends acheivements have nothing to do with you, your not an expert via exposure.

The simple fact that you stand your ground about the buderus not condensing at higher temps says you haven't even called him with the question and are just name throwing to win a debate.

Call him and ask.

If not, call Buderus tech support, they're fantastic with questions.

[GrumpyPlumber]

Hey Grump, I truly hope i am driving you guys crazy! I really aprpeciate the help!!! there is a 10 week wait to run the line to my house!! I am going to get the permits and paperwork ASAP.

-I will install radiant in my floor for future use.
- My old boiler which is on a slab (obv) is directly below the chimney. I know I need to install a SS chimney liner for it, or it wont pass code.

-I have a choice here. Either I slowly build the system I really want and possibly not have heat this winter OR build something in my budget and not have the effeiceny and choices I originally wanted???

I can slowly build the system with a kick ass boiler, I know it will be more then $6000 for everything. i will slowly build it up when money allows.

Am I crazy for thinking this? I am pissing you guys off? i hope not!

You are, bit it's all good, for once I feel like my "grumpy" nature has accomplished something.

The thought of you on the phone with Nat'l Grind at the start of September announcing you're all set and ready to go gave me the chills.

There'd be a sequence of events...

You calling the inspector right after...
The inspector telling you to get a plumber...
The plumber reaming you on price and explaining half the work is useless...
You resort to a second mortgage to pay it...
Or...worse, electric space heaters on a home with old steam pipes most likely means outdated electrical, not real good with space heaters.

[BigLou]

Lou, for once your figures make sense, $5500 sounds about right for stock only with a 2 zone and existing pipes in place.

Thanks glad to know you agree with my reciepts


NOT in Ng's case, his stuff is ripped out, also it's a one pipe sytem that needs substantial work.
I thought we both agreed long ago that $6,000 was not going to work.



The $5k to $800 figure remains in question, though oil does have a substantially higher cost and your old boiler was no question short cycling, thats a bit off.
I think I may have mis added and its more like $900 a year in gas bills. If you don't believe me come over and I will show you my oil slips and gas bills. The mod/con always operates at peak efficiency and the savings add up.



Now, factor in the radiant and maybe you finally understand the dilemma Ng is in, having ripped out his baseboard...also the added work of re-installing the removed piping & radiators.
I understood all along he had a budget issue but it appears he has time on his side and can save up more money.



Your friends acheivements have nothing to do with you, your not an expert via exposure.
Correct. I do haver have college course work under my belt in heating system design and efficiency. I think this qualifies me to discuss the subject. I was also trying to show that these were not my ideas alone some one with more schooling then both of us thinks its the way to go.



The simple fact that you stand your ground about the buderus not condensing at higher temps says you haven't even called him with the question and are just name throwing to win a debate.

Call him and ask.

If not, call Buderus tech support, they're fantastic with questions.

I E Mailed him on your advice. When he replies I will post here and admit that I am wrong if thats the case

Lou

[GrumpyPlumber]

Interesting that a college teaches condensing isn't condensing.

What college?
What course?

[BigLou]

Grumpy,
looks like I will have to call buderus to see if I can't find some on to agree with you. AT 155 degree exhaust temp the boiler is not condensing. There may be some condensation in the pipe AFTER it leaves the boiler BUT THE BOILER IS NOT CONDENSING. Maybe the company will disagree.


Lou

[jadnashua]

I will say that with my Buderus system, on a cold winter's day, the amount of water rushing down the exhaust vent pipe sounds like a small stream after a heavy rainfall. Most of the time, it's only running around 130-140 degree water temp. On a really cold day, especially if it is windy, it might get higher, but I've seen it run at 110-120 for extended periods with the circulators calling for heat, too. Even with the gas price supply increases over the last few years, mine still costs less than before. The one I replaced was supposedly 87% efficient. The ability to match the house's needs to the boiler output is a great comfort and economy improver.

[GrumpyPlumber]

The Burnham SCG, for example...
You need to pitch the SS venting or connect a drip tee to accomodate for condensate, there is mild condensate, the venting is SS due to the ph levels in condensate in the first place.
This boiler is made to run at 180.

The Buderus is condensing, it will condense water vapor when running, less at higher temperatures, try removing the two connections to the condensate pump at higher temps to test this.

The confusion here is the level of heat transfered to convection via water vapor.

Water turns to steam at 210.

Water vapor heated above 210 that comes in contact with a surface below that temperature will condense.

The lower the temperature, the higher the amount of energy absorbed through water vapor, in theory you could run almost 100% efficient at temps under 100...not very practical.

[nhmaster]

This condensing VS not condensing argument has reached the point of stupid. Of course it's condensing a 155 degrees, look at the water flowing out your condensate line.
It condenses at ALL OPERATING temperatures.