Need help with water treatment!!

[tntg]

My husband and I have been dealing with bad well water for a year and we have reached the end of our rope. We have really bad sulfur (50 ppm)! From what I am understanding from the various water treatment "specialists" I have had come in that is almost unheard of.
Here is the problem: a year ago we paid almost $8k to have a system installed that, as we were led to believe, would address our water issues. It consists of a hydrogen peroxide injection (Stenner pump) which then goes to two carbon filters/tanks and then passes to a water softener. It has worked intermittently over the past year but now the sulfur smell is back and it appears it is here to stay. There is a really long time between when we turn on a faucet and when the hydrogen peroxide pump kicks on...is this what is potentiallyl causing the problem- is this allowing untreated water through our pipes until the pump starts injecting the peroxide (35% peroxide)?

We have gotten 3 new proposals from other water treatment companies and they are all three proposing the same thing but very different from what we have installed. The problem is, we will have to go to court to get the company to pull out our existing equipment, even though it is very clear by the smell in our home that they have failed to give us a product that works! The new companies are all proposing a chlorination (pool chlorine) system (using Stenner pump) which leads to an aeration tank and then to a carbon filter/tank and finally to a water softener. How large should the retention tanks be? They have all three proposed different size tanks!

Does anyone out there have this high level of sulfur (not that I would ever wish this on anyone!)? If so, PLEASE let me know how you addressed it!

Thanks
TNTG

[speedbump]

I have never dealt with that much Hydrogen Sulfide so I won't pretend to be an expert. 6- 10 is about what I'm used to and we get rid of that with an air pump and a galvanized tank. Nothing more.

I for one don't like injecting chlorine especially if it's not necessary. And even more so with a Stenner. If your Stenner comes on slowly, it may be that the flow switch is gumming up with sulphur or it may not be hooked to a flow switch. It may be coming on with the water pump.

Aeration, Chlorination and Carbon filters are three different ways of dealing with sulphur odor. Why all three I'm not quite sure. Maybe it's what is needed to get rid of that much sulphur. The carbon filter will deal with about 1/2 part per million and that's about all. Chlorine will treat much more as will aeration, but how much I'm just not sure.

My system works very well on all the water we have treated, but again, that's not much over 10 ppm.

bob...

[tntg]

Thanks for your reply.

The Stenner pump is triggered by the pressure in the pressure tank...when the water is running and the pressure drops to 45 the hyrdogen peroxide pump kicks on and when the pressure gets back up to 75 the peroxide shuts off until it drops back to 45. I'm assuming there is not a flow switch if this is the case?

[Gary Slusser]

My husband and I have been dealing with bad well water for a year and we have reached the end of our rope. We have really bad sulfur (50 ppm)! From what I am understanding from the various water treatment "specialists" I have had come in that is almost unheard of.
Here is the problem: a year ago we paid almost $8k to have a system installed that, as we were led to believe, would address our water issues. It consists of a hydrogen peroxide injection (Stenner pump) which then goes to two carbon filters/tanks and then passes to a water softener. It has worked intermittently over the past year but now the sulfur smell is back and it appears it is here to stay. There is a really long time between when we turn on a faucet and when the hydrogen peroxide pump kicks on...is this what is potentiallyl causing the problem- is this allowing untreated water through our pipes until the pump starts injecting the peroxide (35% peroxide)?
You should fix what you have rather than buy new, except for a retention tank that you don't mention as part of your current system. Without a retention tank that kind of system can't work well for long. No retention tank means the carbon has to remove what H2S the peroxide doesn't get and the residual 'sediment' the peroxide causes in oxidizing the H2S it treats.

Without a retention tank, yes, the pump being operated by the pressure switch is a problem and requires the carbon to remove the H2S when there is no peroxide in the water.

These two carbon filters, are they plumbed in line, on after the other (series) or, side by side by side inline (series parallel)?

I don't like solution feeders like you have. You're always mixing solution and it usually weakens as it sits in the tank for days or weeks and the solution used is always the strongest (at the bottom of the tank if the chemical, like chlorine, is heavier than water) yet the feeder pump is constantly injecting a weaker solution until you mix up a new batch, which starts weakening immediately. So most folks increase the volume of solution being injected, and then eventually go to other equipment or give up and settle for poor quality water.


We have gotten 3 new proposals from other water treatment companies and they are all three proposing the same thing but very different from what we have installed. The problem is, we will have to go to court to get the company to pull out our existing equipment, even though it is very clear by the smell in our home that they have failed to give us a product that works! The new companies are all proposing a chlorination (pool chlorine) system (using Stenner pump) which leads to an aeration tank and then to a carbon filter/tank and finally to a water softener. How large should the retention tanks be? They have all three proposed different size tanks!
You say they propose the same thing yet it's very different than what you have....

I'm seeing the addition of chlorine and an aeration tank but the same Stenner pump and carbon filters... So they are adding those things and going to use the peroxide too? You probably need new carbon, especially if it is regular carbon and not the special carbon I use. BTW, never use pool chlorine to treat potable water.

Another thing, your carbon filters most likely are too small for the peak demand gpm your house uses.

I do not think an air pump aeration system alone will remove 50 ppm of H2S but then I question the 50 ppm test result. I may not be correct but that is probably sufficient to cause a confined space condemnation of the house.

If hubby is handy instead of or in addition to handsome, ya'll can install a retention tank and replace the carbon yourselves.

[Southern Man]

Lots of good advice for you here, especially about the retention tank. It will help equalize the chemical balance as well as give more time for the reaction to take place.

I would also look into changing out the carbon filters quite often. That's where the sulfur eventually ends up. Activated carbon has a nasty habit of releasing contaminants in a "slug" if something comes along that it has a greater chemical affinity for- especially if the cartridge is near capacity.

You should invite the salesman of your system back in to maintain/ fine tune they system.

[tntg]

The H2O2 is 35%.

The 50 ppm hydrogen sulfide test result was by two separate companies- one using the test with the color and the other using the alka seltzer (don't know what either one is called) so I believe it is accurate and trust me, the smell could knock you over from miles away.

The carbon filters are 1.5CF, installed one after the other and are backwashing- they are set every other day on opposite days.

We have a submersible well pump and I can't remember how many gallons the pressure tank is.

We did get a couple of proposals to modify what we have:
1. Everything I currently have (Stenner w/ 15 gal container of 35% hydrogen peroxide- first carbon filter, second carbon filter, water softener) PLUS pump control module, Hayes water meter and in line mixer

2. Swap H2O2 for chlorine (using same Stenner pump after cleaning), replace carbon in both filters, add two 120 gal retention tanks, use existing softener

3. Swap H2O2 for chlorine (using same Stenner pump after cleaning), replace carbon in both filters, add Duke aeration system INSTEAD OF two retention tanks, use existing water softener

It seems nobody wants to use the H2O2?!

Here are specifically what the new proposals state:

1. Chemical feed tank 15 gal w/chemical feed Stenner (110/230 17 GPD)w/chlorine, RamJet aeration tank, retention tank (120 gal), 1.5CF filter w/centaur carbon, softener 1.5CF impression IM-1054-ME

2. Duke aeration (not sure # of gal) 220v w/chemical feed pump (chlorine) w/ sol tank and 1.5cf carbon filter, 45cm clack meter water softener

3. 120chl inj w/carbon, 1 chemical feed pump (chlorine) w/sol tank, two 120 gal retention tanks, 1 carbon backwashing filter 1.5 and 45cm clack meter water softener

4. 300 gallon aeration storage tank, chlorinie feeder, 120 gal retention tank, carbon filter, softener

I have a lot of proposal but am very confused as to which option would work, whether my handsome husband does it himself or not!!

It seems, from all of your great responses, that if I keep what I have but add a retention tank I should be ok.

Gary, you said "I don't like solution feeders like you have. You're always mixing solution and it usually weakens as it sits in the tank for days or weeks and the solution used is always the strongest (at the bottom of the tank if the chemical, like chlorine, is heavier than water) yet the feeder pump is constantly injecting a weaker solution until you mix up a new batch, which starts weakening immediately. So most folks increase the volume of solution being injected, and then eventually go to other equipment or give up and settle for poor quality water."
What other options are there?

[tntg]

I forgot to ask...what is the proper way to drain the backwash from the filter? I am being told it was done incorrectly and there is nothing preventing the sewer from coming into the house through that line in the event of a backup. Is the proper way a drain pipe?

[Gary Slusser]

What state are you in?

Is your equipment installed in a basement? If not where is it?

I have to run so I'll post more later today.

[Southern Man]

You said the system "worked intermittently". Does that mean that it worked well for a while at first?

You should have an air gap on the backflush line, just like your washer drains into the system.

[tntg]

What state are you in?

Is your equipment installed in a basement? If not where is it?

I have to run so I'll post more later today.



I am in NY and the equipment is in the basement.

[tntg]

You said the system "worked intermittently". Does that mean that it worked well for a while at first?

You should have an air gap on the backflush line, just like your washer drains into the system.


It has never worked great but there were periods of time when we didn't smell sulfur in the water. This is part of my frustration- we'd call the company who installed it and they would come and increase the amount of hydrogen peroxide being injected and it would work ok for a while. Then a few weeks later the water would smell again (not like sulfur- fishy) so they came back and said there was too much hydrogen peroxide being injected which caused the carbon tank (we only had one at first) to have to work too hard trying to remove the hydrogen peroixde that it let some get through which ruined the sulfate tank (this is the first I am mentioning a sulfate unit because we no longer have it). It was removed and they added another carbon tank. Not because we needed it, I am sure, but just so they didn't have to give us back any money for the sulfate unit. Our sulfate is under 400 which was too high to get our CO in Albany County which is why we needed the sulfate unit to begin with. It worked ok for a while...about a month or two and then the sulfur smell came back again. They came back and this time they said the carbon filter was clogged (the ring at the top)- $50 please- and so on and so on and so on. This company has come back here at least a dozen times nickel and diming us to death and it is never a permanent fix.

Furthermore, to make things more confusing...on the original proposal it states Chlorination System which we never got...instead the hydrogen peroxide unit was installed. It is now my understanding that the chlorination system is a bit more money than a little tank with a stenner pump but we were never compensated for that.

They don't have a clue what they are doing (every time they came here I had to repeat the events leading up to the visit in their entiriety...God forbid he keep notes) and at this point we have asked that they remove their equipment from our basement and give us most of our money back so we can start fresh with the first option under the new proposals on my previous post.

[Gary Slusser]

You are experiencing the problems in using a solution feeder with any size solution tank.

I think you'll have to end up in small claims court before you'll get any money back.

You can use chlorine or peroxide in the tank you have; the only difference is a 15 gal or 30 gal size. The pump etc. is the same.

You can possibly reuse the filters and softener you have IF they are sized correctly, which their addition of the second carbon filter says the first filter wasn't sized correctly.

I've used the indoor Duke (powered outside vented) and I sell a lot of inline chlorinators with the special mixing tank. That makes a great system and then you could plumb the filters in series parallel and use your softener. I don't think I would install the chlorinator ahead of the Duke though, until I spoke with you it would go after it.

My prices would be thousands less than what you've paid or would from a local dealer but then you install it or hire a plumber to do it. Installation is simple plumbing but a Duke and the filters and chlorinator plus rebedding of the carbo filters with a special carbon would take the better part of a day.

[tntg]

You are experiencing the problems in using a solution feeder with any size solution tank.

I think you'll have to end up in small claims court before you'll get any money back.

You can use chlorine or peroxide in the tank you have; the only difference is a 15 gal or 30 gal size. The pump etc. is the same.

You can possibly reuse the filters and softener you have IF they are sized correctly, which their addition of the second carbon filter says the first filter wasn't sized correctly.

I've used the indoor Duke (powered outside vented) and I sell a lot of inline chlorinators with the special mixing tank. That makes a great system and then you could plumb the filters in series parallel and use your softener. I don't think I would install the chlorinator ahead of the Duke though, until I spoke with you it would go after it.

My prices would be thousands less than what you've paid or would from a local dealer but then you install it or hire a plumber to do it. Installation is simple plumbing but a Duke and the filters and chlorinator plus rebedding of the carbo filters with a special carbon would take the better part of a day.

The reason he added a carbon tank is because he removed the sulfate tank and instead of doing the right thing and giving us back money for it he swapped it for the carbon tank- that was the only choice we were given. It's not a matter of being the wrong size.

We are going to court, by the way, but it's not small claims. We've spent over $8000 on a system that leaves our water smelling like crap and on a company who, after 12 months of coming in and performing minor changes and claiming "it's fixed" is now saying they really do have the fix and it's to install a post-cholrination system. They told us we then have to play chemist in order to get the right level of chlorine to make sure not too much was getting into our drinking water!

This Thursday we're having installed the Duke, chlorinator, 120 gallon tank, carbon tank and softener. Keep your fingers crossed. The other equipment is going to wind up in our garage until this court thing is settled but I took lots of pictures! I should post some of them and get opinions!

Thanks for all of your help and advice,
Tina

[Southern Man]

I’d like to see how this thing gets resolved. I lived south of Syracuse for 11 years and although we had good water a lot of people in that region do have sulfur problems. It seems that yours is unique as it's really high, and the company tried to manage it with a system designed for a lower concentration. Court or arbitration cases like this typically come down to expert testimony, and it won’t hurt things at all to hire an expert now, get advice on what type of system that you should have, then go in to court on that basis. Legal battles take time and there’s no reason to have to deal with water problems while you’re waiting for a financial resolution.

Upstate NY has a real glut of good environmental engineers, and there should be plenty of local talent in Albany. You can call up the State Dept of Environmental Conservation of the State Professional Licensing Board for a list of them.

I worked for an excellent firm in Cazenovia for 6 years back in the 1980’s but you should be able to find someone closer. I recall one job that we did treating water for a large power systems boiler where we had to take city water down to some very high purity. We ended up subcontracting Culligan for treatment advice. So Culligan is another expert that can probably help you, but since they also sell the treatment equipment they may not be the best people to use with a pending legal case.

Before you hire anyone talk to your attorney.

[Gary Slusser]

Tina, I wish you well in your court endeavor, but in the case of water treatment, size does matter.

I've been to court twice, I think you are making a mistake by buying new and not using the carbon filters and the softener. That assumes the decision is not a full refund. And to buy new equipment before the court decision may be a mistake. BTW, all chlorination equipment may require you to test and adjust the fine tuning.

[speedbump]

You will find that a Court case can cost as much and many times more than the amount your going for. Sometimes the Judge will award Attorney fees in the mix. Then it's up to you to find the money. Good luck on that one.

I have been there and done that from the other side of the fence. Where someone owed me money either for services rendered and one for a home I rented that got trashed. We won easily in court with an Attorney, then we had to go find not only the X-Renter but the money. They don't have anything worth going after including garnishing wages. They just quit that job and move on.

bob...

[tntg]

I've met with an attorney who happens to be my neighbor who happens to work for the Legislature. I am meeting with her "officially" today. I would write more but you never know who's reading this!

By the way, the company I am referring to thinks all this advice I'm getting on-line and the other proposals I've received (which are all very similar to your suggestions) is from a "bunch of schleps who have no idea what they're talking about". The post-chlorination is the only thing that will work, according to them yet it's taken 13 months to come to that conclusion?

Call me crazy but court it is. I will keep all you schleps ;) posted! Thanks again.

[tntg]

Tina, I wish you well in your court endeavor, but in the case of water treatment, size does matter.

I've been to court twice, I think you are making a mistake by buying new and not using the carbon filters and the softener. That assumes the decision is not a full refund. And to buy new equipment before the court decision may be a mistake. BTW, all chlorination equipment may require you to test and adjust the fine tuning.

I thought of that but you don't understand. We live in a gorgeous new house and can't even use our water at this point! So, I have taken plenty of pictures and video and will take lots of pictures during the dismantling phase of anything that my be relevant...appreciate the advice and this is my first time taking someone to court. Not something I make a habit of doing! We had been willing to accept 80% refund with removal of all equipment. They could have re-furbished/re-used it and still got compenstated for labor but that wasn't acceptable so...this is the alternative.

[Southern Man]

.... all this advice .... is from a "bunch of schleps who have no idea what they're talking about". ......

That means that we're on the right track! :)

[tntg]

I have to back track a bit. We have, as previously mentioned, the Stenner Chemical Feed injecting 35% hydrogen peroxide...then the two carbon tanks...then the softener.

IF we were to let this company come in and do what they are proposing, which is a Post-Chlorination System (another Stenner w/a retention tank), what are your opinions as to whether or not that will fix our sulfur problem?

Also, does anyone know what happens when the carbon tanks become clogged/need replacement and the hydrogen peroxide gets through and mixes with the chlorine?

DON'T ASK! :eek::confused:

[Southern Man]

I would let them in if they didn't charge anything. After all, it is to fix their system that didn't work from the start. But hydrogen peroxide and chlorine do the same thing.

I've read up on this a bit and there are some things that may help you understand the situation a bit better:
1. The smell is hydrogen sulphide H2S. Concentrations down to 0.05 ppm (1000 times less than you have) can create odor problems. Although it is common in well water, it can be formed from bacteria in your well, so that should be checked first. This would be done by shock treatment- chlorination of the well.
2. Chlorine will oxidize H2S to insoluble sulphide particles that can then be removed with a filter. The reaction takes time so you need a contact tank to allow time for it to occur. What I’ve read says use a sand filter but there might be other types of filters to use. You need 100ppm Cl to oxidize 50ppm H2S. Normally activated carbon is used as a finishing step to remove excess chlorine.
3. Hydrogen peroxide H2O2 will oxidize H2S as well. Again you’ll need a contact tank and a filter. You need 50ppm H2O2 to oxidize 50ppm H2S. You should not need activated carbon because excess H2O2 forms water and oxygen. Maybe it is they who are the schleps and used the carbon on the wrong type of system.
4. What I’ve been reading is for treatment of relatively low concentrations. You may need to use a primary step, such as aeration, to remove the bulk of the H2S, then proceed with chemical treatment. An aeration system could be a tower mounted outside, trickling water over coarse media (rock or plastic shapes) with a fan on top drawing air from openings in the bottom. You may need more than one pass in the tower, with a pump recirculating water from the bottom (instead of just a single pass, using only the well pump). Of course where you are you need to be concerned with freezing an all that. Someone who’s creative could do a fountain or a water fall as part of this process.

Again I suspect that this company got in over their head because of the high concentration. The only understand that equipment that they sell (if that), so aren’t able to “think out of the box” and propose a different type of system. You would be wise to hire a local environmental engineer who doesn’t have a financial interest in specifying a particular system or brand.

[Gary Slusser]

I don't know why a new thread was started, now no one can go back and look up anything that was said about this previously...

I don't agree with most of that. There is no way to make a "tower" or other open to air system to get rid of H2S gas in potable water. Even if some of the materials were NSF Standard 61.

I do not agree with getting any type engineer involved. Or any governmental agency, you have already spent thousands of dollars and doing any of that will only cost more. Also, the water quality improvement industry has the only equipment that can legally be used unless you pay no attention to codes.

I say those guys should add the retention tank they should have been using since day one. Their carbon filters are too small and they should not need two in series, one correctly sized would suffice.

[tntg]

Hi, Gary...not a new thread...go back a page and you'll see what Southern Man is responding to...thanks.

[Southern Man]

More on aeration treatment of potable water: http://www.wrights-trainingsite.com/WTaeratonb.html

[tntg]

I think chlorine with aeration and the right size carbon tank will work but that is not what this company is willing to do. As a matter of fact, they are insisting that their way is the only way...their post chlorination system will be in addition to the 35% hydrogen peroxide and will come after the carbon and after the water softener. There will not be anything removing the chlorine from the water. And, they are NOT willing to do it for free- they want another $800.

I can't seem to find anyone who knows what the potential hazzards are of inadvertantly mixing hydrogen peroxide with chlorine?

Did get some good news today. A man up the road, whose system we are looking at Monday or Tuesday, had sulfer between 40 - 50 ppm (this whole area seems prone) and he had Culligan install something (don't know the particulars yet). He ended up getting frustrated, took them to court, got all his money back including atty fees and then did his own research as I am doing and fixed it himself with an aerator. He has other components to the system and I'll find out what those are early next week.

The saga continues. All I know is, pardon the pun, this stinks!

[Southern Man]

....A man up the road, whose system we are looking at Monday or Tuesday, had sulfer between 40 - 50 ppm (this whole area seems prone) and he had Culligan install something (don't know the particulars yet). He ended up getting frustrated, took them to court, got all his money back including atty fees and then did his own research as I am doing and fixed it himself with an aerator. He has other components to the system and I'll find out what those are early next week.

The saga continues. All I know is, pardon the pun, this stinks!

Bingo there you go. Hire his attorney and copy his design.

[Bob NH]

An air stripper can be constructed to remove hydrogen sulfide from water. However, it won't do anything about bacteria that may produce hydrogen sulfide after the water passes through the stripper.

It may take quite a high column to get enough hydrogen sulfide out of the water. Design of a stripping column is beyond the scope of this forum, but is it possible to reduce the concedntration by a factor of 100 if necessary. A stripper is fairly complex and usually not the best solution for a very small system.

Chlorine can be neutralized by injecting an appropriate amount of sodium thiosulfate. You need 3.5 mg/liter of sodium thiosulfate to neutralize each mg/liter of chlorine. http://www.cnykoi.com/calculators/calcdechlor.asp

Neutralization of the chlorine will produce small amounts of sodium, chloride, and sulfate ions.

[Gary Slusser]

Hi, Gary...not a new thread...go back a page and you'll see what Southern Man is responding to...thanks.
Sorry, I didn't notice that.

[Gary Slusser]

More on aeration treatment of potable water: http://www.wrights-trainingsite.com/WTaeratonb.html
Yes I know all that but my point was or is that this homeowner and 99.999% of others will not and can not use air stripping due to freezing, the size needed, the space required and numerous other reasons. And frankly they don't need to because there are a number of common every day ways of treating this water and they have already spent $8k and with an additional piece of equipment, and it isn't a second solution feeder, and sizing things correctly, their problem will be solved. I say that after selling the type of equipment for over 21 years now.

[Gary Slusser]

I think chlorine with aeration and the right size carbon tank will work but that is not what this company is willing to do. As a matter of fact, they are insisting that their way is the only way...their post chlorination system will be in addition to the 35% hydrogen peroxide and will come after the carbon and after the water softener. There will not be anything removing the chlorine from the water. And, they are NOT willing to do it for free- they want another $800.
I wouldn't pay them another penny, and if I did I would not accept the chlorine and any particulate matter chlorination would cause, to remain in the water. Ask them what the chlorine is supposed to oxidize that doesn't cause turbidity (dirty water caused by particles) and why you should end up with varying amounts of chlorine in your household water and two solution feeders to maintain because they didn't install a retention tank to begin with.

I'd go to court.

Gimmee their number and I'll tell'em. LOL

[tntg]

I am curious. You say one of the testers used Alka Seltzer for his hydrogen sulfide test. Is this where (he) took a sample in small bottle and put the AS in? Then placed a paper disk in the lid and closed the bottle? HACH makes one like this. After a couple of minutes, the disk is removed and compare with a color chart.

Thanks,
Andy Christensen, CWS-II

Yes...that's the one. He had 10 disks in there all of which discolored.

[tntg]

I wouldn't pay them another penny, and if I did I would not accept the chlorine and any particulate matter chlorination would cause, to remain in the water. Ask them what the chlorine is supposed to oxidize that doesn't cause turbidity (dirty water caused by particles) and why you should end up with varying amounts of chlorine in your household water and two solution feeders to maintain because they didn't install a retention tank to begin with.

I'd go to court.

Gimmee their number and I'll tell'em. LOL

Now that's what I'm talking about! :D

I am not going to pay them another penny. My attorney is thinking if we don't let them come in and try the post-chlorination system they could say they were willing to fix it and we didn't give them an opportunity. Never mind that they've had 13 MONTHS and he's been here at least a dozen times. What I'd prefer to do is find documentation from an unbiased source that clearly indicates all the faults with what they installed and how their last proposal won't work. If I get enough support I won't let thim come in and I will take them to court. I don't know if you saw my previous post about a guy up the road who sued Culligan due to the same problem. Monday or Tuesday I'm going there and copying all his paperwork and documenting what he has installed that fixed his problem and then calling HIS lawyer!

We asked him what would remove the chlorine from the water and his response was we don't need to because public water has chlorine in it (which I believe is true but isn't it constantly monitored for proper levels?) but we didn't ask him how the particles would be removed. I'm getting smarter and smarter by the day when it comes to this stuff:cool: Is it because chlorine is an oxidizer and turns the H2S into sulphide particles? So that is what would remain in our water? Real nice.

Seriously though, thanks for all of your help. It's difficult when you have all these people telling you a hundred different things! We were supposed to have the new system installed today but we post-poned it until we can get our ducks in a row.

This guys a butt-hole. No two ways about it.

[tntg]

I wouldn't pay them another penny, and if I did I would not accept the chlorine and any particulate matter chlorination would cause, to remain in the water. Ask them what the chlorine is supposed to oxidize that doesn't cause turbidity (dirty water caused by particles) and why you should end up with varying amounts of chlorine in your household water and two solution feeders to maintain because they didn't install a retention tank to begin with.

I'd go to court.

Gimmee their number and I'll tell'em. LOL

Let's see how well I know these guys. I think I know what they would say to your question/s above. They will say that it is not H2S that is causing the odor...it is sulfur bacteria which the chlorine will kill thereby taking care of the odor and not leave any particles.

We disinfected the well recently and the sulfur smell was only gone while the bleach was still present. The minute that water circulated through it was back in full force. If it was bacteria in the well wouldn't that have taken care of it for a least a little while?

[Gary Slusser]

Hydrogen peroxide or chlorine or any other disinfectant kills bacteria. The question and bottom line is why isn't their peroxide working, and why do they have to add chlorination to kill sulfur or any other bacteria that the peroxide should be killing?

I have heard that peroxide doesn't work well on any type of reducing bacteria... And that is what they are using and it is not working, for whatever reason; it has not worked and is not working period.

Also, they can not prove that SRB is the cause of the odor, actually they produce gas and that is what the odor is (you aren't smelling the bacteria); it can be H2S getting past the peroxide, and/or SRB living in the carbon filters. Either way, the peroxide, and the carbon filters, isn't working.

Swapping to chlorine in the solution feeder you already have is easily done. And, they could install the new retention tank that they should have installed initially (which they want to do now) after the solution feeder that is there now. That should work as long as they can inject sufficient chlorine.

Which brings us to ask why they had to add another carbon filter months ago, which didn't solve the problem. And now they're back for another 10% ($800) of the $8,000 you have already paid them.... I call'em CROOKS.

They should eat the cost in swapping to chlorine and moving things to add the retention tank and throw in a new correctly sized carbon tank. If it were me I would because I know that I'll lose more by you telling everyone you talk to for the next 5 years how I didn't get it right and to stay away from me. But no, they'll continue to be stuck on stupid until they learn, if they do.

BTW, there are many ways to treat water and all well etc. waters are different. So you aren't going to be able to nail down "it shoulda been done this way and we wouldn't have the problem". So stick with the "it has not worked from the beginning and we want it out of here unless they fix it free of charge; they've had 13 months and $8000.00. If chlorine can solve it after all their equipment, why not at the beginning?

And insist that you will not accept constantly chlorinated water, and what that volume can do to your softener's resin. Their position will be that they can add a carbon filter after the new retention tank.... and you can remind them you already have two, so put the chlorine and retention tank ahead of them.

IMO, they are acting this way simply to prevent themselves from losing any money. If they go to court I think they will lose a bunch.

[Gary Slusser]

Yes...that's the one. He had 10 disks in there all of which discolored.
The best, easiest and most commonly available test for H2S is your nose.

[tntg]

IMO, they are acting this way simply to prevent themselves from losing any money. If they go to court I think they will lose a bunch.

I agree completely and I think he knows it but is too arrogant to admit he's wrong.

[tntg]

Here is exactly why we ended up with 2 carbon tanks.

We started out with one carbon tank and a sulfate unit. They had the peroxide set too high and it got through the carbon tank and damaged the sulfate unit (our sulfates aren't that high so we weren't too worried about it but we had to lower them for the DOH to do its final test in order to get our CO in Albany Cty). So, it's not that we even needed another carbon tank but if they didn't give us something they would have had to have given us a refund for the sulfate unit. Better for them to just slap on another piece of equipment and still make money as opposed to giving some back. You said it earlier...crooks. I didn't know half as much as I do now when this was all going on...not that I am classifying myself as an expert by any means.

My lawyer is drafting a letter tomorrow asking them to address our concerns with the post-chlorination system- all the things you listed in your previous post as well as putting the responsibility on them to explain what happens when hydrogen peroxide mixes with chlorine when the carbon needs changing, etc. His defense is going to be they offered to come in and fix it but we wouldn't let them but if they can't address our concerns with regards to their proposed fix and offer valid explanations then that will be our reason for not letting them back in. If he doesn't respond at all then that still works to our benefit.

When all of this is said and done I will make sure you and half of NYS know who this company is! Maybe I'll put a sign in the back of my husbands pick-up truck and drive all around town for a few months. I always thought that would be fun!

[Gary Slusser]

One last thought, they are not 'fixing' anything, they are consistantly adding NEW equipment and you pay for it while living with bad water quality.

IMO they owe you at least the difference between the price for the anion resin (sulfate) filter and the carbon they exchanged that resin for. I say that assuming that they set the volume of hydrogen peroxide to be injected with the solution feeder; and that ruined your expensive anion resin. BTW, that should have been regenerated with softener salt, so where's the brine tank? And that requires a softener control valve. The control valve on a carbon filter is a non regenerated backwashed only (read less expensive) control valve. So I supposed they swapped the valves or removed certain parts to make it into the filter version.

I want a picture of the truck with the back window sign.

[Southern Man]

......

We disinfected the well recently and the sulfur smell was only gone while the bleach was still present. The minute that water circulated through it was back in full force. If it was bacteria in the well wouldn't that have taken care of it for a least a little while?

Once you disinfect a well it should stay clean unless the well is getting surface water in it somehow. With a new house that is doubtful as in NYS the well should be in bedrock with the casing driven down to the top of the bedrock then sealed in. At least that's my understanding of the requirements when I lived up there.

[tntg]

One last thought, they are not 'fixing' anything, they are consistantly adding NEW equipment and you pay for it while living with bad water quality.

IMO they owe you at least the difference between the price for the anion resin (sulfate) filter and the carbon they exchanged that resin for. I say that assuming that they set the volume of hydrogen peroxide to be injected with the solution feeder; and that ruined your expensive anion resin. BTW, that should have been regenerated with softener salt, so where's the brine tank? And that requires a softener control valve. The control valve on a carbon filter is a non regenerated backwashed only (read less expensive) control valve. So I supposed they swapped the valves or removed certain parts to make it into the filter version.

I want a picture of the truck with the back window sign.:D

We were charged $3,500 for the sulfate unit. How much less do you sell the carbon tank/filter for? I don't even know what type of carbon we have or what size it is (live and learn).

That makes two things we paid for that got swapped out and never got compensated for: the sulfate unit and chlorination system (he installed the stenner w/hydro peroxide instead)

The softener was installed after the sulfate unit...are you saying it should have been installed before the sulfate unit and if so, why?

You lost me with the control valve on a carbon filter is a non regenerated backwashed only control valve. I don't recall if they swapped parts but what difference does it make? Our carbon tanks do backwash...explain please :confused:

[Gary Slusser]

We were charged $3,500 for the sulfate unit. How much less do you sell the carbon tank/filter for? I don't even know what type of carbon we have or what size it is (live and learn).

It depends on the size and what control valve is used but a local dealer would want maybe $900-1100 including installation. My delivered price of the same filter is $600.


That makes two things we paid for that got swapped out and never got compensated for: the sulfate unit and chlorination system (he installed the stenner w/hydro peroxide instead)

The softener was installed after the sulfate unit...are you saying it should have been installed before the sulfate unit and if so, why?
IIRC, the sulfate filter should have been after the softener.

You use the same solution feeder to inject peroxide or chlorine. They look and work the same because they are one in the same; there is no difference between them except the chlorine or peroxide you pour in them....


You lost me with the control valve on a carbon filter is a non regenerated backwashed only control valve. I don't recall if they swapped parts but what difference does it make? Our carbon tanks do backwash...explain please :confused:
A carbon filter backwashes only, it does not suck a solution out of a brine tank as a softener or sulfate filter does. The backwashed only valve usually costs less than a regenerating valve. So if they took the regenerating valve and gave you a backwashed only valve, you lost money. Or they could have converted the valve to the backwashed only version, and charged you to do it removing parts they didn't leave with you and they will sell them to someone else while repairing a regenerated valve; with free parts they got from you. Crooks.

And they really took you charging $3500 for the sulfate filter, unless it was very large; like 3 cubic foot or larger. And they may have fully regenerated your expensive resin, sanitized it and sold it to someone else in a $3500 filter. Carbon is like $100 per cubic foot, anion resins about $400+.

[tntg]

It depends on the size and what control valve is used but a local dealer would want maybe $900-1100 including installation. My delivered price of the same filter is $600.


IIRC, the sulfate filter should have been after the softener.

You use the same solution feeder to inject peroxide or chlorine. They look and work the same because they are one in the same; there is no difference between them except the chlorine or peroxide you pour in them....


A carbon filter backwashes only, it does not suck a solution out of a brine tank as a softener or sulfate filter does. The backwashed only valve usually costs less than a regenerating valve. So if they took the regenerating valve and gave you a backwashed only valve, you lost money. Or they could have converted the valve to the backwashed only version, and charged you to do it removing parts they didn't leave with you and they will sell them to someone else while repairing a regenerated valve; with free parts they got from you. Crooks.

And they really took you charging $3500 for the sulfate filter, unless it was very large; like 3 cubic foot or larger. And they may have fully regenerated your expensive resin, sanitized it and sold it to someone else in a $3500 filter. Carbon is like $100 per cubic foot, anion resins about $400+.

Our sulfate unit was a tank the same size as the carbon tanks and with the same meter on top...nothing else? He actually told us he was going to re-use it.

Why does the sulfate unit have to be after the softener? Will it not work properly with hard water? Our hardness is 394 before treatment (acceptable for Alb Cty is <2 - 120).

All these things are exactly why I don't want to use our existing equipment and not let them in here to attempt to "fix" it for the 20th time. When I get the letter from my lawyer that we're sending to them I'll scan it and upload it. I suspect they won't respond but either way it gives us the upper hand. Then we will file appropriate paperwork and let the system take over. I'll keep you posted for sure!

[Gary Slusser]

Our sulfate unit was a tank the same size as the carbon tanks and with the same meter on top...nothing else? He actually told us he was going to re-use it.
ummmm a.... the "meter" is the control valve on the media/mineral tank and plugs into a power source (unless you have a manual or water powered control valve). Inside the tank should have been anion resin. It is very expensive, and especially when compared to carbon. It is regenerated with softener salt, in a softener, because in essence it is a softener with one difference, it had anion resin in it used to remove sulfate (among other negative charged ions in the water) instead of cation resin used to remove positive charged ions like calcium and magnesium (hardness minerals), ferrous iron, manganese etc..

So what was done with the mineral in that tank when they replaced it with carbon? I say they took it and may have sold it to someone else without giving you anything for it.


Why does the sulfate unit have to be after the softener? Will it not work properly with hard water? Our hardness is 394 before treatment (acceptable for Alb Cty is <2 - 120).
Yes because of the hardness, IMO it's better to have the hardness removed first. Do not base your understanding etc. on treated city water or a water company's statements about THEIR water, you have a well, a totally different animal.

City water companies say "acceptable hardness" when no one in a commercial establishment or industry, or a house, agrees with them. BTW 120mg/l divided by 17.1 to convert mg/l to gpg (grains per gallon) = 7 gpg of hardness. Hardly soft water..... or "acceptable" if you care about your water heater and the money you spend for the fuel to run it or prematurely replace it, or your fixtures, clothes etc. etc. lasting as long as they could with 0 gpg soft water.

For residential and most commercial applications, water is either soft (0 gpg hardness) or hard (1 or more gpg of hardness). Industrial gets down into the mg/l of hardness, and in many instances below 1 mg/l. That "acceptable hardness" statement is more than a bit of the CYA stuff water companies do so they don't have complaints about their water quality. I see they convinced you. lol

[tntg]

You use the same solution feeder to inject peroxide or chlorine. They look and work the same because they are one in the same; there is no difference between them except the chlorine or peroxide you pour in them....

And they really took you charging $3500 for the sulfate filter, unless it was very large; like 3 cubic foot or larger. And they may have fully regenerated your expensive resin, sanitized it and sold it to someone else in a $3500 filter. Carbon is like $100 per cubic foot, anion resins about $400+.

I guess they did take us...multiple times. This is what the receipt says: Sulfate Unit- $3,500, Chlorination System- $2,895, Softener $1,295. When I look at the diagram (chlorination system) they gave us it shows the stenner pump and tank but then it is followed by a 120 gallon retention tank that they never installed. From other quotes I got $2,895 is a ridiculous amount for a stenner, 15gal bucket and 120 gal retention (other quote is about $1,200!!!). Regardless of what someone else charges, we never got money back for the retention tank they never gave us either. I would assume that was at least 700-800 of the $2895 if not more.

Boy, I must have had my head up my butt for this one. I am taking these crooks to the cleaners. Now it has become a matter of principle.

[Gary Slusser]

Yes rip off prices and by their own diagram, proof they did not do it right from day one.

[tntg]

What is the reason the sulfate unit should follow the water softener and not be installed before it?

[tntg]

IMO they owe you at least the difference between the price for the anion resin (sulfate) filter and the carbon they exchanged that resin for. I say that assuming that they set the volume of hydrogen peroxide to be injected with the solution feeder; and that ruined your expensive anion resin. BTW, that should have been regenerated with softener salt, so where's the brine tank? And that requires a softener control valve. The control valve on a carbon filter is a non regenerated backwashed only (read less expensive) control valve. So I supposed they swapped the valves or removed certain parts to make it into the filter version.


The only brine tank we have is the one the water softener uses. Is it possible the sulfate unit used this brine as well? I don't recall there ever being a line between the two. If there is no brine being used and the sulfate unit can't regenerate then it would not work for long...couldn't that be what caused the fishy smell in our water. He said it was because the hydrogen peroxide got through but I can't see how that can be.

[Gary Slusser]

What is the reason the sulfate unit should follow the water softener and not be installed before it?
I've already answered that when you asked the first time. It's better of if it is after the softener.

[Gary Slusser]

The only brine tank we have is the one the water softener uses. Is it possible the sulfate unit used this brine as well? I don't recall there ever being a line between the two. If there is no brine being used and the sulfate unit can't regenerate then it would not work for long...couldn't that be what caused the fishy smell in our water. He said it was because the hydrogen peroxide got through but I can't see how that can be.
If there was no brine tank and it didn't use brine out of the softener's salt tank, then you didn't have an anion resin sulfate filter. But I thought you said you needed one for the occupancy permit.

[tntg]

If there was no brine tank and it didn't use brine out of the softener's salt tank, then you didn't have an anion resin sulfate filter. But I thought you said you needed one for the occupancy permit.

We did need one to get a CO and our sulfates were indeed lowered...they went from 396 to 108 until the unit/resin got contaminated which wasn't shortly after we had it installed. I'm wondering if they installed that incorrectly, too. The sulfate unit is long gone so I am going off memory and I never recall there being a hose from that unit to the existing brine. Would it have worked just long enough until the resins reached capacity and once they did would that cause a fishy smell in the water?

Previous question about sulfate coming after softener...I understand it would be better but I didn't know if there was a scientific reason for that...does calcium or whatever else is found in hard water prohibit it from working correctly, etc.?

[Gary Slusser]

I can't answer that but IIRC, you'd want it after the softener.

Fishy smell can come from anion resins.

They may have used a tee in the brine line from the softener's brine tank and replaced the original brine line when they pulled the sulfate filter out instead of using a coupler in the line.

The MCL for sulfate is 250 ppm but sulfate is not a health concern, it can give a bitter taste and causes a laxative effect in some people. Most people never notice either, but you live in NY where they love to interject government into every aspect of your life...

[nic5]

Any update regarding this matter? There hasn't been a post in over 2 months...just wondering if there's been a resolution yet.