Water heater questions from a newbie

[DBS2071]

Hi everyone I've been lurking for awhile and have enjoyed the tips. Well...I installed by water heater today. From reading this forum I decided upon a Rheem. Install went pretty smooth. But before my questions, I do have to share a bit of my stupidity. I hooked up everything, water, gas, vent, earthquake straps, (Chino Hills, CA). tested everything, lit the pilot and it stayed on like it should. Turned the temperature control to 120° and nothing. Would not fire up. I sat thinking what could be wrong. After about 20 mins. and no fire I figured it must be a bad thermostat. I figured I'd have to call Rheem on Monday. That was until my neighbor and his wife came over and after about a minute of them staring at the WH, the wife asks shouldn't this knob be tuned to on not pilot. Geez, I'm a moron. Works like a champ now.

My questions now. The T&P valve is dripping. Could this be a bad valve? Second, When running the pipe from the T&P valve can a flex line be used or does it have to be hard piped?

Thanks, Brian

[Redwood]

Brian, How about posting a picture of your installation?

[Gary Swart]

The TP valve should have been replaced with the tank. It is possible the TP is malfunctioning, but it sounds more like another problem. Do you have a pressure regulator valve on your water supply? If you do, you also must have a thermal expansion tank installed between the PRV and the water heater and it must be pressure-matched to the PRV. If you do have a PRV but do not have an expansion tank, because water expands as it heats it must have a place to expand to. If there is no PRV then the city water main absorbs this expansion and that's that. However, if you have a PRV, it has a check valve built in that prevents this expanded water from passing into the city main so a thermal expansion tank is needed. Without this tank or if the one you have is not set right or has failed, because the expanded water has no where to be absorbed, it trips the TP valve. The TP requires a hard pipe to the floor.

[DBS2071]

The TP valve should have been replaced with the tank. It is possible the TP is malfunctioning, but it sounds more like another problem. Do you have a pressure regulator valve on your water supply? If you do, you also must have a thermal expansion tank installed between the PRV and the water heater and it must be pressure-matched to the PRV. If you do have a PRV but do not have an expansion tank, because water expands as it heats it must have a place to expand to. If there is no PRV then the city water main absorbs this expansion and that's that. However, if you have a PRV, it has a check valve built in that prevents this expanded water from passing into the city main so a thermal expansion tank is needed. Without this tank or if the one you have is not set right or has failed, because the expanded water has no where to be absorbed, it trips the TP valve. The TP requires a hard pipe to the floor.

It came with a new TP valve already installed. I'm pretty sure there is a pressure regulator outside. The supply line comes up from the ground, has a shut of valve, a device that has a dome sticking out horizontally with a screw and lock nut at the end (which I'm sure is the regulator), then the hose bib, then 90's into the house. All of the houses around here have these devices and nobody has an expansion tank that i've seen.

[patrick88]

I would install an expansion tank. It sounds like you have done everything else right. You could change the t&p, but that might be a waste of money. The T&P blow off can be run with hard plastic. The box stores sell the ready made ones.

[sjsmithjr]

Just out of curiosity, did you pull a permit for your installation? To ensure their proper and safe installation, Chino Hills, CA requires a permit for water heater replacements. Contact the Community Development Department at (909) 364-2780 for information; the inspector might even spot the problem your having with your installation.

[hj]

The T&P discharge water will be 200+ degrees if it operates. There is NO plastic that is approved at that temperature, which also has a FULL 3/4" i.d. as required by the code.

[Redwood]

Just out of curiosity, did you pull a permit for your installation? Chino Hills, CA requires a permit for water heater replacements. Contact the Community Development Department at (909) 364-2780 for information; the inspector might even spot the problem your having with your installation.

I would highly recommend this as well!
That was the reason for asking for the picture of the installation.
It sounds like you have researched the topic and probably done it okay but...
I strongly feel that installing gas appliances is not a hobby.

The possibilities of an empty lot with a smoldering pile of toothpicks in the middle of it is very real. As is an entire family not waking up in the morning.

Please have it inspected!

As for the T&P dripping check the pressure with a gauge and a Thermal Expansion Tank will probably fix the dripping problem.

[jimbo]

SInce Chino Hills is in the South Coast Air Quality Management District, I assume your new WH is the Ultra Low Nox, and cost you an arm and a leg! What did you pay for that WH if you dont mind my asking? You have noticed that the burner in that is not just an open flame, but a glowing matrix. You mentioned it is a Rheem ......good choice. Rheem got the Ultra design right, just as they got the FVIR right. Some other manufacturers got both of those "wrong".


follow up: You were at ground zero of last weeks earthquake, I believe. Everything come through OK?

[DBS2071]

SInce Chino Hills is in the South Coast Air Quality Management District, I assume your new WH is the Ultra Low Nox, and cost you an arm and a leg! What did you pay for that WH if you dont mind my asking? You have noticed that the burner in that is not just an open flame, but a glowing matrix. You mentioned it is a Rheem ......good choice. Rheem got the Ultra design right, just as they got the FVIR right. Some other manufacturers got both of those "wrong".


follow up: You were at ground zero of last weeks earthquake, I believe. Everything come through OK?

Yep, ultra low nox. And I should have been more precise...It is a GE, which from what I understand is a Rheem. It was $579.00 for a 50 Gal/12 year. And yes, that glowing matrix was one of the first things I noticed

Made through the quake just fine. A few items on the floor, a couple of broken items. No biggie. It beats floods and tornados. Well that is until the so called BIG ONE hits, then I might change my mind.

[DBS2071]

I would highly recommend this as well!
That was the reason for asking for the picture of the installation.
It sounds like you have researched the topic and probably done it okay but...
I strongly feel that installing gas appliances is not a hobby.

The possibilities of an empty lot with a smoldering pile of toothpicks in the middle of it is very real. As is an entire family not waking up in the morning.

Please have it inspected!

As for the T&P dripping check the pressure with a gauge and a Thermal Expansion Tank will probably fix the dripping problem.

I'm very familiar with gases that go boom. I work with Hydrogen tanks and piping as well as piping natural gas to heat treat furnaces. So I am well versed in gas safety. I handled this job like I do with hydrogen, no margin for errors. I am completely confident working with natural gas.

Here are some pictures for your opinions. If you notice I have not finished the piping on the TP valve, I didn't want to finish the hook up until I figured out what was wrong with the dripping. If you notice the small stub in the other picture, that is where the TP valve gets attached.

[MACPLUMB 777]

Ok These Are The Problems I See;

#1 You Need Sheet Metal Screws At Least (3) If Possible In Each Joint Of The Single Wall Vent Pipe, In Case A Minor Earthquake ! !
So The Vent Doe's Not Come Loose And Poison The Family ! !

#2 Yes You Can Use A Water Heater Flex To Connect The T & P Drain
"but" Check With Your City Officials On This,

#3 Where You Have The Cold Water Flex Go Back To H.d. And Get A 3/4" Brass Tee And One Brass X Close Nipple This Allows You To Install Thermal Expansion Tank There, If Not Enough Room Get A
2nd. Brass Nipple And Strap Tank To Sidewalls Being Sure To Hit A Stud With A Second Earthquake Strap Kit And Use A Water Flex To Connect It Together,

The Thing You Must Know About Plumbing The Codes Get Updated All The Time So What Was Allowed At The Time Of The Old Heater
Install Is Not A Approved Way To Install A New Water Heater To Todays Code ! ! !

Yes The Device You Describe On Your Front Water Service Is The Prv. This Doe's Have A Internal Bypass To ALLOW Hot Water To Flow Into Street But The Chino Hills Area Has Very High Street Water Pressure ( Because Of Those Pesky Santa Ana Summer Fires )

So Because Street Pressure Is At Or Higher Then The The T & P Relief Setting Of 150 Psi. You Need The Thermal Expansion Tank
To Test This Get A Double Needle Pressure Gage And Leave On The Wtr/htr Drain Over Nite,
You Will Find That After 10:pm If Not Before The Water Pressure Will Go Up! !

Thats More Typing Then I Have Done In A Long Time

By The Way Just Because I Am In S.l.c. Ut,
I Still Carry A Ca. Contractors Plumbing License

[Redwood]

Thanks for posting the pics I believe our Doctor of Waterheaterology has covered what additional stuff needs doing.

One thing though Jerry...
I would suspect that the hills rather than Santa Anna winds and fires have more to do with the water pressure....
It takes ooomph to make water go uphill!:cool:

Jerry, you might SNAKE ANY DRAIN, PLUMB. ANY PIPE, MAKE COLD WATER BOIL ON A FREEZING DAY but....
I have been there and done all that plus I know how to make water go uphill.:eek:

[MACPLUMB 777]

Yes I Know About How To Make Water To Go Up HILLS ! ! !

But I Also Know Fire Protection I Am A Rated Fire Protection
Specialist Since Oct. 1974
And Carry A Current Fire Sprinkler Lic. In Calif since JAN. 1989

The High Water Pressure Is To Get The Right Volume And Pressure
Up To The "top" Of The Calif. Hills To Fight Fires
I Have Grown Up In Those Same Calif. Hills Helping To Fight Those Brush Fires From A Early Age And That Is What "SPARKED" My
Interest In Fire Fighting

http://gpsinformation.net/fire.jpg

[Redwood]

Well Jerry if you think about it a little, the pressure gets the water up to the top of the hill whether it is going to a faucet or a fire truck. The diameter of the water main is what determines if a fire truck is going to have a satisfactory water supply.:cool:

That area looks a little sparcely populated to find a hydrant... They usually put them next to roads...

BTW Jerry I do miss the volunteer firefighting days... It was fun throwing water around.
Spent a good 25 years + doing it. Saw a couple of big ones too!

One of the things I really liked was the muster competitions that we had. Our company did an event close to this one in the video below where the truck drives ahead ,stops sets up a draft, and pumps water down a 150' run of 2 1/2" hose to a target.

It's funny in the video linked below it shows a 1919 fire truck doing it in about 30 seconds. We did it with a 1975 truck in about 28.5 seconds on the average. Truth is that is pretty phenominal when you think about it because that 1919 White in the video is a ringer for this event. The truck has a positive displacement pump so the priming is easy. We started with a dry pump but ours was a 1,000 gpm centrifugal pump that took some doing to get a prime. Watch the video its neat!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Afmr3Te-X64&feature=related

[DBS2071]

Well the TP valve stopped dripping on it's own. I don't know if air in the lines could have caused it, but once I opened everything up and got all the air out of the system along with opening up the TP valve it seemed stop. It was never dripping bad just seeping a little. I could put my finger on the stem and with the lightest pressure it would stop the drip.

I talked to the city building inspector and he said an expansion tank is not normally used out here and is not needed and therefore is not required for code. The pressure regulator will take care of any thermal expansion.

Now as for the regulator...it must have taken a dump because the pressure is reading 120 psi. :eek: Two of my neighbors have changed theirs for the same reason. I guess that's this weeks project. Maybe that's what was making the TP valve to drip?

[Terry]

So the inspector said that the pressure regulator means you need no expansion tank.

That is the opposite of how everyone else thinks.
Everywhere else, they follow the code book and use one.


The reason it stopped when you opened the T&P, is that you relieved the pressure.
The same thing would have happened if you had opened a faucet.

The reason the pressure keeps climbing, is that the PRV doesn't allow the building pressure to go back out to the main.

[DBS2071]

So the inspector said that the pressure regulator means you need no expansion tank.

That is the opposite of how everyone else thinks.
Everywhere else, they follow the code book and use one.


The reason it stopped when you opened the T&P, is that you relieved the pressure.
The same thing would have happened if you had opened a faucet.

The reason the pressure keeps climbing, is that the PRV doesn't allow the building pressure to go back out to the main.

He said there is no code in this city for an expansion tank and he's the top dog at the city. I know not one home around here has one. He said the regulator does have a bypass for thermal expansion as long as the inlet pressure is not above 150 psi which it isn't. The only reason I mentioned the fact that I opened it up was maybe it wasn't seated right or perhaps it had some dirt in there. Anyway, it hasn't dripped any more since then so if there was a problem with thermal expansion wouldn't it still be doing it? I don't no at this point. I'm leary of finishing hard piping the TP drain line until I am positive that it isn't a faulty valve.

[Gary Swart]

The fact that some, just some, PRV have a bypass for pressure has recently been noted. It would appear that these are newer model PRVs since the majority of the plumbers all testify to the need for a thermal expansion tank in conjunction with a PRV. I certainly found this to be true in my home when I installed a PRV. The TP gushed water every time the water heated until I learned about the thermal expansion tank. I don't know how this "top dog inspector" knows that everyone has one of these PRVs with a bypass, guess that's why he's top dog.

[hj]

This Doe's Have A Internal Bypass To ALLOW Hot Water To Flow Into Street

That must be a humongous amount of expansion and back flow if hot water gets even close to the PRV. Usually it would stop within a few feet, or less, of the water heater. A cup full of expansion will increase the pressure enormously.

[jimbo]

CA codes do not require the expansion tank, not does the local code here in San Diego. They haven't caught on yet. All manufacturers ( read the details in your Rheem/GE install manual ) RECOMMEND an expansion tank.

Your unit has probably a 40,000 btu burner, where 10 years ago a similar tank may have been 34,000, or even less. The overall efficiciency is also higher. SO, it heats the water faster, thus the expansion becomes an issue, whereas in the past it may not have been.

Your inspector, if you call for a permit, will want to see self-tapping sheet metal screws in the connection of the elbow to the draft hood.

[jadnashua]

Excessive pressure inside the house is detrimental to hoses (like on your washing machine, icemaker, dishwasher, and possibly any other flex hose feeding a faucet or toilet). The bypass in the PRV only works if the house pressure exceeds the incoming pressure. If the supply pressure is very high, it may never bypass, and you'll still end up with high pressure in the house. Save wear and tear on any of those flexible fittings, o-rings, gaskets, etc. in the house and install an expansion tank when you have a PRV installed. Things will likely last longer, and your T&P valve won't cycle, possibly rusting out the bottom of the WH from periodic wetting.

[MACPLUMB 777]

I Am Sorry To Disagree With Jimbo, And Your Topdog Inspector,

But The State Of Calif. And "all" Local Jurisdictions Go By The Uniform Plumbing Code Which Since The Early 90's Has Required
The Use Of Thermal Expansion Tanks Anytime There Is A Closed System On The Water Heater

This Is Defined By;
#1 Having A Check Valve Installed On The Cold Water That Prevents Thermal Expansion,
#2 By " Excessive Street Water Pressure That Is Equal Or The Same As 150 Psi" Which At Nite Is What Your 120 Psi Pressure Go's Up To
Remember What I Said About The Double Gage You Leave It On Over-nite The Red Hand Will Stay At The Highest Pressure Reached Overtime,

The Reason This Bad Is When The T&p Weeps Constantly It Causes A
Lime Buildup In The T&p That "could" Freeze The T&p Closed

Which Is Equal To Cutting Your Emergency Brake Cable Loose
Before Coasting Down The Grapevine ! ! !

The Possibility Of All This Happening In That Order Is About The Same As A Space Shuttle Blowing Up On Takeoff Or Burning Up Trying To Land,
But Remember It Only Has To Happen Once To Your Family

All This I Quoted From The Code Book Can Be Backed Up At Your Local Library Or By Calling The County Building Dept,
Since Your Local Inspector Seems Not To Know The Plumbing Code

[MACPLUMB 777]

This Is Also The Way Water Heater Mfg's Look At Your Warranty Claim If Your Heater Starts Leaking Under Warranty

I Know This Because I Have Done Work As A Mfg's Service Agent For All Water Heater Mfg's Full Time Since 1989 And Each Co, As
A Journeyman Plumber Since 1976

And Have Had To Correct Both Lic. Plumbers And Plumbing Inspectors In Regard To Both, Code And The Mfg's Warranty
Rules

[DBS2071]

UPDATE:

1. The valve stopped leaking a few hours after it was installed and hasn't dripped since.

2. Vent has been secured at every joint with 3 screws

3. I'm checking into an expansion tank.

4. I'm getting up a 3:00 am tomorrow morning so I'll recheck the water pressure to see what it will rise up to. I did call the city yard and they said in some areas of the city they are pushing 125-150 psi to get it up the hills. I live about a 1/4 of the way up so they said I should see more pressure that the homes at the top. They are coming by tomorrow to check my pressure though.

5. I've got a new PRV to install this weekend. (unless they get mine adjusted)

What size expansion tank should I get for a 50 gal water heater. I've seen ads stating a 2 gal would be the right size but have also seen 5 gal?

[SteveW]

You can buy a pressure gauge which has a "second hand" which will stay at the maximum pressure even when the regular hand drops to a lower pressure. Very handy for seeing what the max PSI is overnight.

Another good test is to measure the static pressure, then run 10-20 gallons of hot water quickly (e.g. open a tub faucet), then shut off the faucet and watch the pressure gauge for the next 5 or 10 minutes as the water heater heats up that big slug of cold water. With a closed system and no expansion tank, you will be surprised how high your pressure may go (was 180 in my house before we put in the expansion tank).

[jadnashua]

www.watts.com (http://www.watts.com) has a nice expansion tank calculator on their website. It depends on several things: normal incoming water temperature, max temp at the WH, and the size of the WH tank. Make sure you get a potable water one, and not one for hydronic heating.

[DBS2071]

Ok...it looks like you have made a believer out of me with the expansion tank...even though the city says it it not required. It looks like a 2.1 gallon expansion tank will work for me. I do have a couple of questions though.

1. Can the tank be oriented in both vertical or horizontal positions? I have not found in any of the literature that states this. My available space is next to nothing.

2. Does this need to be mounted to the wall? All the diagrams look like it is just sitting on the piping. What about earthquake strapping, is it needed?

[MACPLUMB 777]

Yes It Can Be Eather Way But You Want To Make Sure That You Have Access To The Air Nipple On The End ! !

Set The Air Pressure About 75 Psi. With A Air Gage Before You Mount It

Yes Most Installs Show Mounted On Pipe, But Knowing What Kind Of Room You Have In The Garage Thats Why I Said About Using Earthquake Strap To Mount To The Side Wall As Long As You Find The Studs To Mount It To,

Thinks Steve For Your Input That Is What I Was Trying To Say

[Dunbar Plumbing]

You tellem Mac!


Did you try calling?

[MACPLUMB 777]

One Last Thing If I Was You, ! !
Get The Model #, Date Mfg, Or Serial Number If It Has One
Plus The Same Information Off Your New Water Heater And Start A File In Your Computer,
That Saves A Lot Of Look Up Time If Their Is A Warranty Issue,

If You Call The Mfg, Or A Service Agent The 3 Things They Want To Know
#1 Model Number
#2 Serial Number
#3 The Date Purchased Or Installed

On The Expansion Tank It Depends How You End Up Mounting It
If You Can Later Read This On The Wall

[DBS2071]

I found a pressure gauge with a second "lazy hand". I will have to rig up an adaptor because all of the hose bibs have vacuum breakers on them and they have a small stem that sticks out and blocks the hole for the gauge.

[jimbo]

Well, macplumb is right. Sort of. 608.3 does require an expansion tank on any system provided with a check valve, backflow preventer, or any normally closed device. Apparently the inspectors condisider that most PRV are bypass type, and consider that a "loophole" in the law, because they are not failing installs for lack of expansion tank.

[MACPLUMB 777]

Put Your Gage On The Water Heater Drain Hose Connection

Or Disconnect Your Cold Water Washer Hose Over Nite And Use That One

[Plumbob]

Does an expansion tank need to be close to the water heater? My WH is 30ft away from the meter. There's a good mounting spot near the meter.

Which side of the water softener should the tank be mounted on?

[jadnashua]

Actual distance doesn't matter - the pressure in the house should be essentially the same all over unless a section is closed off. That's the problem, if you turn off the input supply to the WH (and you do want it on the supply side), if the expansion tank is on the supply side of the valve, if the WH is still on, there'd be no place for that expanding water to go...it'd be as if you didn't have one. So, ideally, that tap is after the WH incoming shutoff and before the tank on the cold side. Now, that doesn't mean the tank has to be physically located there, but you may not want to run a pipe back to it in what would end up being mostly stagnent water since there' be no flow, or at least not enough to purge the line as water moved in and out of the expansion tank.

If you can have your shutoff to the WH back there, too, then it would work fine.

[MACPLUMB 777]

Yes You Need The Expansion Tank Between The Cold Water Ball Valve And The Water Heater It's Purpose Is To Protect The
Water Heater From Too Much Thermal Expansion,
That Is A Requirement Of The Mfg's Warranty