water softener

Hello, I recently rented a culligan water softener that was installed by my plumber. The culligan man told me to bleed the softener. How do I do this? Thanks

Just run it through a manual regeneration cycle to get rid of any air inside it.
Mike

softener

The FIRST thing you do after an installation is to regenerate the softener to flush all the "fines" and air out of the tank.

You only have to do a manual regeneration IF filling the resin tank with water initially after the plumbing was not done correctly. Actually doing a regeneration, or allowing it to do its first automatic regeneration, without filling the resin tank with water correctly can cause problems like resin getting into the control valve.

A new softener has new resin, so it does not need to be manually regenerated.

Just piggybacking since this is the most recent softener thread I found -

I've been told my water is 42 g/gal hard. (By a softener salesman.) I have 5 people in the house. Based on this the various online calculators I've found seem to indicate I need ~50,000g system. However, since 3 of the people are little kids that don't take showers every day, I'm sure our actual requirements are somewhat lower.

I just purchased an 80,000g system with a Fleck 7000SE control valve from ****. I went with it because the Flecks seem to have a good reputation and the price was about 1/5 what the local sales guy quoted me for a 64,000g system. (I'm so annoyed by them - the hard sell was amazingly long, condescending, and included many rather dubious claims. But enough.)

My question is: is 80k too big? I don't want to have to return it (expensive shipping), but I also don't want to create a maintenance problem by getting the wrong size.

I plan on engaging a local plumber to do the installation, although I will evaluate the job once I have the equipment in hand to see if it looks like I can handle it.

You should have talked to me before buying. I would have told you that I stopped selling the 7000 2 yrs ago because of problems and frequent regenerations using more water than softeners with different control valves etc..

Who did you buy it from?

Didn't they go over sizing with you before you bought it?

Did they tell you what K of capacity and salt dose to use and how to program the control valve with the figures?

Without more info I can't say if it is the right size but, your kids count the same as if they were older and independent water users.

Andy CWS said:

Since you purchased it already, then that's water under the bridge.

Click to expand...

Not true. He can return it and even mentions the expense of doing so... you must have missed that part.

Andy CWS said:

42 grains is extremely hard. Was there an iron count? What about total TDS? Any other test results?

Click to expand...

Extreme hardness is any water containing more than 13 gpg of hardness.

He said he used a number of online calculators to size the softener. IMO all would take the iron, and probably manganese, into consideration. The TDS and any negative effect it would have on hardness removal with a softener is not near as important as living with the 42 gpg of hardness. So instead of asking him questions that he probably can not answer, why not help him understand the importance of the TDS?

Andy CWS said:

The machine will work for you. It is better to get one that size than one that is way too small for your needs.

Click to expand...

His concern of it being too large is valid and a WQA level CWS-II should know that so what are you basing your comment "it will work for you" on when above you allude to the TDS AND below you ask what size tank he has? Do you even know what size softener an 80K is?

Andy CWS said:

What are the dimensions of the tank (h x w)?

Click to expand...

Andy CWS said:

With single tank systems, calculating is done by a combination of water quality and the estimated number of gallons (based on the number of people, assuming that everyone uses the same everyday) used on a daily basis, which is never fully accurate, of course. But it is a general target at getting the unit working. Yours is a demand system so it counts the gallons between regenerations.

Click to expand...

Yes they are sized on an average number of gallons of water used per day by the household. Sizing that way allows for a wide range of flexibility; easily changed by the owner when needed. Unlike say a Kinetico where the homeowner having to make changes must change a part (a disk) after buying it from the one'n only local Kinetico dealer; or suffer much more frequent regenerations. That's IF that one'n only dealer will sell or give the disk to a DIYer. Otherwise, usually, the dealer will charge a service call to come out and change it. To support that position they use excuses like "it will void the warranty" and "you may have trouble changing it yourself"... etc..

His softener counts gallons the same as all metered/demand regenerated softeners do.

Andy CWS said:

If your iron count is low or negligable, use a higher salt efficiency setting. Andy Christensen, CWS-II

Click to expand...

Ah yes, that's part of the flexibility I mentioned above with his type of softener. He can change the K of capacity by adjusting the salt dose lbs. (which is extremely easy compared to a Kinetico), the salt efficiency and the frequency of regenerations as his water quality and/or family circumstances change over the years.

Now if he had just bought a Clack WS-1 instead of the 7000...

I don't think I have significant levels of iron or manganese. However, I don't have the actual measurements. (Probably should have gotten that first, eh?) TDS is 949 ppm according to the last annual report sent out by my city water department. (We do not have great water.)

The resin tank is 13x54 with 2.5 cu/ft of resin in it. It's supposed to be rated for 25gpm flow, which I think is more than adequate. That might be with 1.25 pipe, but I have 1 inch pipe in my house.

I was told by a water softener salesman who came to our house and is familiar with our city's water that he recommended a 64k grain system. So I guess I did get some guidance on size. However, I didn't trust him for various reasons so that's why I tried to find information on the web myself about sizing. (this was all before I ran across this site. I think this site is better than the other sources I found. Gary I probably would have bought from you if I'd found you before I bought the one I did.)

The seller, who I'm not trying to hide, sells on e b a y. (The site stripped that out before, not me). I didn't converse with him first, I just went with the combination of what I heard from the salesman I did talk to, and what I calculated online, and went with the size he was offering (since he was the cheapest on e b a y) that was rated at a higher grain capacity than what I thought I needed at that point (50k - 64k). Also I understand that 42gpg is very high so I figured I probably needed a high capacity softener.

So it sounds like the Clack saves salt. Any idea how to guesstimate how much it would save? I'm not sure if returning the entire system will be worth the cost in salt savings - the shipping to me is costing $100 and I think it would cost a similar amount to ship it back. It might take a while to recoup that in salt. If you have an opinion let me know.

You should program it for 50K and 15 lbs of salt, DFff and not use the variable brining feature. Those settings will give you 3333 grains/lb salt efficiency and a regeneration on average every 4 days. I would have told you a larger softener would give you a regeneration every 8 days but I don't know the age of the kids and number of bathrooms and type of fixture. If they are older and will be leaving hpme in a few years you're fine with the one you have.

No the control valve has nothing to do with salt efficiency, it is the volume of resin in the tank and the lbs of salt used per regeneration. That gives you the K of capacity and that gives you the gallons between regenerations.

Sear Water Softner

I'm having problems with a gradual decrease of water flow through the softner over the last several months. When I bypass the softner all flow with pressure returns. I've disasssembled and cleaned everything that can be taken apart including the screens in the resin tank. Everything is clean. The Sears softner is 9 years old. I can't figure out why I'm losing so much pressure through the water softner.
Any suggestions?

BJD

khhgrr said:

I don't think I have significant levels of iron or manganese. However, I don't have the actual measurements. (Probably should have gotten that first, eh?) TDS is 949 ppm according to the last annual report sent out by my city water department. (We do not have great water.)

Click to expand...

City water rarely if ever has any ferrous iron. Your TDS is high but not high enough to cause a problem for a softener. Especially if it has been chlorinated.

khhgrr said:

The resin tank is 13x54 with 2.5 cu/ft of resin in it. It's supposed to be rated for 25gpm flow, which I think is more than adequate. That might be with 1.25 pipe, but I have 1 inch pipe in my house.

Click to expand...

That 25 gpm is @ 15 psi meaning, there is a 15 psi pressure drop/loss through the softener. The constant SFR (service flow rating) of a 2.5' softener is 13 gpm but, the 1" or 1.25" pipe makes no difference; it is the peak demand gpm versus the 2.5' of resin. The peak demand gpm is the sum of all the water being run through the softener at the same time.

khhgrr said:

I tried to find information on the web myself about sizing. (this was all before I ran across this site. I think this site is better than the other sources I found. Gary I probably would have bought from you if I'd found you before I bought the one I did.)

Click to expand...

There is a lot more sizing info on my site than I can give you here. Maybe next time...

khhgrr said:

The seller, who I'm not trying to hide, sells on e b a y. (The site stripped that out before, not me). I didn't converse with him first, I just went with the combination of what I heard from the salesman I did talk to, and what I calculated online, and went with the size he was offering (since he was the cheapest on e b a y) that was rated at a higher grain capacity than what I thought I needed at that point (50k - 64k). Also I understand that 42gpg is very high so I figured I probably needed a high capacity softener.

Well you didn't do too bad but the correct size would have been larger.

khhgrr said:

So it sounds like the Clack saves salt.

Click to expand...

The Clack is the control valve, just one part of a softener so it isn't the control valve that saves salt.

Saving salt means to reduce the amount of salt used over a period of time; a week, month or year.

Salt efficiency is the number of thousands of regenerated grains (K) of capacity per lb of salt used per regeneration. It doesn't matter what brand or type of control valve is on the softener; it's K of capacity per lb of salt used per regeneration.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Andy CWS said:

I hope you don't live in California, because 3333 grain per pound of salt would not be acceptable as 4000 gpp is the minimum.

Click to expand...

And IF he lives in CA.... he can set his control valve to give him any number of grains/lb salt efficiency he wants to. Changing the salt dose lbs is extremely easy with a Clack or Fleck control valve, unlike softeners that use a float in the salt tank to do it; like Kinetico and most big box store brands, or Ecowater.

Andy CWS said:

A twin-tank softener at 2.7 lb salt setting would provide a 4,622 grains per pound. And you wouldn't have to guess when the regenerate or how old the kids were.

Different valves types can be a big difference in efficiencies according to a major resin manufacturer. Timer valves are universally considered 'salt hogs'.

Click to expand...

ANY type, brand, or model of control valve can be set for any number of lbs of salt per regeneration.

The only type of control valve that uses a "guess" as to when to regenerate is a manually operated type; the owner must guess when to do the regeneration. That type of control valve is used very rarely.

Electronic or mechanical day timer, metered demand initiated type control valves are all programmed to regenerate in x days or x gallons, so no, there's no "guess".

As to the age of the kids... I've not had any experience of parents not knowing the age of any children living with them in their house.

dupuybj said:

I'm having problems with a gradual decrease of water flow through the softner over the last several months. When I bypass the softner all flow with pressure returns. I've disasssembled and cleaned everything that can be taken apart including the screens in the resin tank. Everything is clean. The Sears softner is 9 years old. I can't figure out why I'm losing so much pressure through the water softner.
Any suggestions?

BJD

Click to expand...

The most common cause is bad (mushy or clumped) resin. The cure is to replace the resin. Another cause may be something blocking the by-pass valve.