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fidoprincess
07-22-2008, 03:14 PM
Hi, my tile shower is gutted to the studs and now it the time for me to pick out new fixtures. I have a couple of questions if you can help.

The shower is 4.5 by 3.5 so seems big to me. Since I had to redo the thing because the shower pan failed, I'd like to do something different than just the one shower head on the end. My plumber said he can do whatever I'd like but won't help me pick out and design so...

Is the shower deep enough to put 2 heads on the short wall facing out with a 3.5ft depth?

If not, I want to do one at each end but it is all so different picking out things now. All I have now is a threaded pipe sticking out of the top that through the years, I just put new shower heads on myself from Home Depot type stores. The current one is so nice that has a big shower head and a handheld one and I can use either one or both at the same time-good for washing my little kids. Looking at plumbing supply places, all of the sudden this takes a gazillion knobs and handles and you can't use them both at the same time?

Can you tell me what fixtures/parts/brand to buy? I want each end to have a shower head with a hand held and want to use both at the same time and only need one knob to turn them on and off. (No fancy body sprays etc.) I do need the rough in shower valve but do I need 2? Why are some $80 and others $380 for this valve thing. All I know is I don't want to rip out new tile because I picked a cheap bad one and all my plumber says is Hansgrohe which is very $$$. Just a pole with one shower head was $400 and didn't include the rough valve but it slid up and down and came off-ack.

Do I ask the plumber to go off the existing line? How is that done to insure enough water pressure to run both showers at the same time? To run the new pipe to the opposite side, is it better to go up over the ceiling or around the wall inside since it already is open?

Oh and why is the plumber telling me it takes 2 guys 4 hours to just change out the rough mixing valve? Heck, I can see the thing-little triangle piece with a couple copper pipes running in to it-4 hours, 2 guys, really?



Sorry so long!

Mikey
07-22-2008, 04:09 PM
I'm doing the same thing in a 3x5 shower, with 45 degree corners on the front side where the shower controls and heads are, so the sprays go up against the back wall. I'm using Moen fixtures; I forget the cost, but they for damn sure weren't $400.

As for the number of guys, it's easier if you've got a helper, but I've done everything myself. If I had to change out a shower valve, I'd probably take anything from an hour to most of the day, depending on how it was installed in the first place, access, etc., though, so for a couple of guys who know what they're doing maybe 4 hours isn't so bad, but I sure wouldn't want to pay for them!

If you're really doing everything from scratch, I hope you're doing a Kerdi shower...

fidoprincess
07-22-2008, 05:01 PM
Hi Mikey, thanks for your reply.

Nope, no luck doing the Kerdi Shower, posted on the pros boards looking for help but there are no installers near me. Very few people even heard of it and no places near me sell it. I almost bought it online thinking I could do it myself but realized it was too hard for me alone. I am sick about it but at least I finally found one person that didn't insist on hot mop and feel lucky about that. The tile installer uses the chicken wire bed with mortar like in the olden days!

My shower is U shaped with the bottom of the U being the long wall. Yours must have a partial front wall too that you put your fixtures on to have them spray at the back wall? I guess mine is too shallow to put them on the back wall without having them spray out.

Should I get 2 separate mixers to share the one line or do 2 lines? I will look at the Moen, are they good and reliable? I'd had to have to rip out the tile for a valve replacement. Did you get "kits" or buy all your pieces one by one? Do you have a bunch of knobs or just 2, one for each shower? Do you have a handheld? Help-not sure what to pick!

jadnashua
07-22-2008, 05:33 PM
Read the shower construction info over at www.johnbridge.com (http://www.johnbridge.com). The shower pan needs to be built right, or it will give you a problem. The preslope, liner, setting bed must be correct with no holes, proper slope, etc., and the curb built right. Chicken wire is not the stuff...expanded metal lath is (but it's a lot more nasty to work with!). It's needed over the curb, and in the first layer if the floor is plywood, otherwise, it's not needed there.

Delta or Moen are good brands that won't cost an arm and a leg. If you always want both showerheads to run at the same time, and don't need to control them individually, you don't need a divertor (which will add to the expense and complexity of installation).

Often, the rough-in valve and the trim are spec'ed separately (but must be compatible). A 3/4" valve costs more, and is only needed where lots of flow is required. Temperature controlled valves are more expensive than a pressure-balanced valve. If you want a fancy trim in a designer finish, that can get quite expensive...basic polished chrome is the least expensive of the finishes.

fidoprincess
07-22-2008, 06:18 PM
Thank you Jim,
I "live" at the john bridge forum but they send people here to find out about the plumbing. I'm pretty confident in the guys that are going to do my shower but am sick that I could not get a Kerdi Pro to do that. I know more about tiling showers than I ever wanted and will be watching closely since the shower curb was that part of my pan that failed.

About the plumbing, I'm getting more focused after reading all the posts. I want to be able to use each end independently and also both at once so I need a diverter but do I still need 2 rough valves. The plumbing is exposed now and consists of a hot and cold copper pipe to the mixer and the shower pipe off of that-must replace that mixer valve for sure since it is 30 years old.

So...how do I do 2 heads on each end and have enough water? Do I go through the wall with the pipes or overhead? Now I am thinking I could have one side be a straight showerhead, the other side a handheld and maybe do a rainshower in the center ceiling? That's a lot of plumbing but worse, I hate all those knobs on the wall. Can you help me with this? Is there a site that explains and shows plumbing options?

(By the way, I like chrome just fine. I heard it lasts longer and so far the only thing I bought was a sink and faucet with chrome.)

Mikey
07-23-2008, 04:07 AM
I think my shower configuration is about the same as yours. Facing it, it's 5' wide and 3' deep, with a 30" glass door in the center. The front corners are filled in so they are 45 degrees to the sides and front. The valves, showerheads, and spouts are on those walls.

I'd recommend 2 separate valves, on the off chance that your shower buddy wants cold while you want hot. As for the rain-shower head and other fancy features, I can't comment, other than to recommend you do it now, while everything is opened up. You could plumb both valves to the rain-shower head for more volume, with diverter valves. You could make things look like the ballast control panel in a submarine.

I bought Moen Posi-Temp valves at the orange big-box store; I think they were around $150 each:

4992

Each valve is supplied by 1/2" CPVC lines which go overhead to 3/4" manifolds. Plenty of volume for individual showers, but higher pressure (my well bottoms out at 40psi) wouldn't hurt. I use water-saving showerheads which I love but aren't fancy by any means:

4993

fidoprincess
07-23-2008, 10:56 AM
Thanks Mikey, That is a smart configuration! Do you design it yourself? Wow, if I could add those 2 extra walls, it would save me big time on the shower door!

Thanks for the plumbing help. This made me laugh so hard because it exactly the look I am trying to avoid: "ballast control panel in a submarine." I think I will drop the rainshower in the middle and just try and concentrate on doing something nice at both ends. I like the Moen handle, so the valve comes with that part or are they seperate? Now I also know that just because I get the Moen valve doesn't mean I have to get the Moen showerhead-thanks!

So the existing plumbing is 1/2 inch, will the plumber just come off that to do the second one? Sorry I don't know what this means: "Each valve is supplied by 1/2" CPVC lines which go overhead to 3/4" manifolds" Don't know what a manifold is? I do want 2 seperate controls for the temp:"your shower buddy wants cold while you want hot"-my shower buddy is most often my little kid who says its HOT while I am freezing. I get the distinct idea that it is better for him to run it OVER the untiled ceiling instead of around the tiled walls so if there is a future problem/leak, we won't be pulling the tiles off, right?

Mikey
07-24-2008, 08:16 AM
In order...

Yes, I designed it and built it myself. Part of the reason for the 45 degree corners was to add rigidity to the shower -- the walls don't go up to the ceiling.

I just saw the Moen kits (valve, shower head and bath spout) for $152 in Lowe's yesterday. You could probably buy just the valve, but I doubt it'd be any cheaper by itself. It's the Monticello model. I installed the bath spouts even though it's a stand-alone shower. Good for toe-testing the water, filling buckets, and washing dogs.

My house is plumbed with 3/4" hot and cold lines running the length of the house -- the "manifolds". Individual fixtures are T'd off these lines with 1/2" CPVC. In your case, since there's apparently just one 1/2" line to the shower area, then yes, your plumber will just T off that line to each shower valve.

Yes, I'd go overhead rather than around the walls. If I ever have a leak it's going to be major construction to get at the pipes (can't get overhead directly). Since it's easy for you to go overhead, you might reconsider dropping the rainshower head. There might be a two-way valve available that you could use to select either the regular showerhead or the rainshower, and that wouldn't look too ugly -- maybe one of the pros could tell you, or you could call Moen customer service -- 800-BUY-MOEN. (Not very subtle, are they?)

Redwood
07-24-2008, 08:47 AM
Fidoprincess,
The answer to the shower of your dreams could be as simple as a Moentrol valve with a 3 funtion transfer valve like the one pictured below. It would give you the option of either or, both showerheads being on without having 2 separate valves to operate or, playing with buttons on shower hears. Those showerheads with the buttons do not fully shut off with the button so a head that has the button in the "closed" position will dribble water. There are other trim options for the Moentrol valve. This valve would make your installation a very nice one.http://www.moen.com/products/T4211

http://www.moen.com/shared/images/ko_weblarge/T4211.jpg

fidoprincess
07-24-2008, 10:51 AM
Redwood, So would that let me run a rainshower head, a regular showerhead and a handshower all at one time? The only thing it can't do is adjust each to different temperatures? I could live with that if I had to in terms of budget. Or does it only this:1 function: Handshower/ 2 function: Showerhead and 3:both together?

Would I get enough flow to each having only one valve?

Also, it seems very $$$-around $570 for just that including the valve with no fixtures yet? Or go the other way and buy 2 separate valves like the one Mikey posted?

Mikey, We don't have Lowe's in my tiny town-just the big orange one but I worry about buying something there. I am afraid it will be cheap and cost money down the line when I have to rip out the tile to fix it? Plus, they are NO help. (By the way, I wish you could come do mine! Yours sounds so nice.)

What parts would I need to do my shower like Terry's post here-scroll down to the 5th one.
http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21017
He has 2 handles and has just what I want-reg showerhead, handheld and rain head in the ceiling.

If I keep it all on the one side except the rain shower like this, that would save, right? I only budgeted $800-$1000 for the plumbing parts/fixtures, am I waaaay off?

Redwood
07-24-2008, 11:28 AM
I didn't realise that your were talking 2 showerheads and a hand held.
The one I cited has a 3 function valve (2 outputs, output 1, output 2, or both) I'll look more for you and get back to you later.

Mikey
07-24-2008, 11:41 AM
If you use Terry's style of layout, you could put in 3 of the cheap valves -- one each for each showerhead (at each shower position), and one for the rainshower (maybe in the middle of the back wall), for under $500.

I actually bought mine at the orange store, but was in Lowe's yesterday and saw them there as well. I doubt there's any difference in the valves from the 2 stores. Your plumber may be able to get them for you from a "real" supply house at a comparable cost.

Don't be scared by Moen's list prices on their web site. Their list was $260 for the kits I bought for $150 or so. Again, have your plumber see what he can do for you at his supply house.

Redwood
07-24-2008, 05:35 PM
Don't be scared by Moen's list prices on their web site. Their list was $260 for the kits I bought for $150 or so. Again, have your plumber see what he can do for you at his supply house.

Nobody pays MSRP!

fidoprincess
07-25-2008, 09:49 AM
Thanks-yes, the pricing really scared me off. After searching for the moen part Redwood showed me with the valve, I found it as low as $220 on the internet-big difference from the $570!
But...they are saying delivery time 3 weeks-ack. I need to have everything to go in just one more week! Do you think HD will have something like this in stock or are they just pretty much the single function ones?

Redwood
07-25-2008, 11:30 AM
I don't think its a stock item at big box i'd check though.

Don't rule out a local plumbing supply house that sells Moen!

Redwood
07-25-2008, 01:08 PM
I just came up with your cheap solution to running a rain shower overhead, Std. wall shower arm and a handheld...

Install this valve on the std wall shower arm and have it feed the reg showerhead and the hand held...http://www.alsons.com/accessories/wateroutlets/products/4923.aspx

http://www.alsons.com/accessories/wateroutlets/images/ACC_WO_4923_big.jpg

This set up with the Moen valve I gave you earlier will give you the option of selecting any of the 3 Items and any combination of them.

fidoprincess
07-25-2008, 03:20 PM
Thanks so much for your help. My eyes are blurry from spending so much time on this computer and I finally decided to order this set up-one for each side. Can you tell me for sure if I can run the shower head and the handheld both at once or each on their own? It doesn't say anywhere.

Moen 270 Double Handle Vertical Spa
( $397.83 X2= $795.66 )

Moen 3371 3/4 Inch Rough In
($248.82 X2= $497.64)

Moen 3600 3/4 Inch Rough In
($63.25 X4= $253.00)

My total with the discount code is $1586-YIKES!

I tried to just order just one set for one side and then a valve with overhead shower but couldn't find a handle/trim that matched so I went for this. It's in my cart and I haven't purchased it yet so what do you think? Are these good for the money? Good deal? If I am to get them in time, I should order by today... Here is a link to the picture(sorry, don't know how to post one)http://www.bellacor.com/productdetail/187170.htm

I tried calling local supply places but they are charging around $700 just for the shower set without the valves.

I liked the idea of "M-PACT common valve system" if I understand it correctly, I can change out and replace the different shower heads, etc. without ever opening up the wall again. Is that what it means? Seems useful?

Thanks again for spending so much time helping me!!

fidoprincess
07-25-2008, 03:27 PM
Oops. forgot to ask: since these are 3/4" and my pipes are 1/2" will that be an issue or will it be just like I have now with the 1/2" pipes that have adaptors at the valve that go to 3/4"?

jadnashua
07-25-2008, 03:41 PM
The 3/4" valve is usually quite a bit more expensive than the 1/2" one, and for your application with 1/2" supply lines, is not buying you anything. Sometimes you get a deal, but not normally.

Redwood
07-25-2008, 04:05 PM
I'm still trying to figure why you want 2 separate valves.

It was my understanding that you wanted to have:
1 overhead rainshower
2 shower arm on the wall
3 handheld shower
A 3/4" valve will run all of these!

Or, is this a double shower?

fidoprincess
07-25-2008, 04:40 PM
Redwood, You are right! Originally I just wanted those 3 items-regular shower head, handheld shower on a bar and a rainshower head. I wanted to be able to run each one by itself or all together at once. I also didn't want all those knobs on the wall and didn't care about the "thermostatic", just really needed pressure balanced so if someone flushes, well..you know. I also only wanted to spend around $800-$1000.

The trouble is that I can not figure out how to get everything to "match"-at least not the knobs. I finally figured I could live with 3 mixers on the wall if I had to but by the time I picked out each individual piece, it was less expensive to just order 2 of these "sets" and forget the rainshower.

I'm so confused...can you show me what you would get? I didn't place the order because when I was calling around to price compare locally, everyone said Moen was terrible ("plumbers only love Moen cause it keeps them in business doing repairs!" and I should go with Hansgrohe or at least Grohe, etc. but geez, I can't find anything comparable for anywhere near the same price.

Redwood
07-25-2008, 05:14 PM
Get one pressure balanced Moen with the 3 function diverter like I posted earlier. Then set that up running the overhead rainshower and the shower arm coming out of the wall. On the shower arm coming out of the wall put the Alsons 3 function diverter and that will allow you to switch between the showerhead mounted on the shower arm, and, or, the hand held shower as they both feed of the Alsons diverter.

All this will run off the one valve instead of having multiple valves.

fidoprincess
07-26-2008, 08:32 AM
Thanks so much Redwood! I am off to the plumbing store this morning and am taking printouts of your posts with me so I should have good luck! Any tips for picking nice showerheads, go with the Moen? What did you think of them telling me Moen was awful and I needed Hansgrohe?

No more ordering off the internet, the fan came yesterday and it's the wrong one-ack! I'm so mad but have enough time to find it locally.

Redwood
07-26-2008, 11:31 AM
I highly recommend the Speakman line! http://www.speakmancompany.com/products/list/Shower
The more jets the better!

S-2008-BP 80 adjustable spray channels plus massage... Oh Yea Baby!
http://www.speakmancompany.com/img/product/288/288/892

A rain shower 8" Dia. with 96 spray streams... Oh Yea Baby Bring it on!
http://www.speakmancompany.com/img/product/288/288/888

VS-2007 50 adjustable spray channel plus massage... Oh Yea Baby I'm Done!
http://www.speakmancompany.com/img/product/288/288/1320

I stayed at a Marriot Hotel last weekend... Moen and Speakman used there!
Maybe thats why I stay there!

fidoprincess
07-28-2008, 03:08 PM
Thanks so much Redwood. I like the look of those Speakmans!

I went to the plumbing store and oh boy, my head was spinning. It's probably "unethical" but the salesman wrote everything down I would need and I came home and ordered it in nicer versions for 1/2 price on the internet. I know I said I wouldn't do that anymore but when I called this morning about the fan, they were so nice and switched it out with no problem and took off more money and gave me reduced prices off the plumbing too!

I finally understood more about what I needed/wanted for the shower so I kind of went "simple". I ended up doing 2 "whole" sets. Pressure valve with trim (one handle) for the shower head and then the same valve and trim for the hand held shower on the bar. I realized that I didn't need the rainshower since we all have very long hair and the spray is well, just like rain...not enough to justify the expense. It just looked cool!

This way, my little one can use the handheld and make it colder while I have the regular one my temperature. I probably could have done it a million different ways but this seemed the easiest. I went with Grohe brand and really liked the shower bar thing. It looks like this:
http://images1.hdpi.com/product_enlarged/28574000.JPG

Now, I have to decide it I want them side by side on the same wall (which is easiest and cheapest) or put them on opposite walls. Any thoughts?

I can not wait until this is done. We live at the beach and yesterday the went swimming and almost had a fit having to wait for the one and only shower-ugh! Thanks again for all of your help and hopefully the installation will go well or I will be back to ask about that!

Redwood
07-28-2008, 05:03 PM
Oh geeez now you tell me...
You needed a beach shower...
All you do for that is put one of these Moen H/C Sillcocks out the side of the house.http://www.moen.com/browsecatalog/productcatalog/outdoorsillfaucet.cfm

http://www.moen.com/browsecatalog/productcatalog/images/outdoorheader.jpg

Then you just run a washing machine hose to one of these.http://www.tahitishower.com/

http://www.tahitishower.com/images/newlayout_product_over_04.jpg http://www.tahitishower.com/images/newlayout_product_over_05.jpg

Lived at the beach all my life! Always shower the sand and salt of before you go in the house!