Bad Iron problem, what to do [Archive] - Terry Love's Plumbing & Remodel DIY Forum & Blog

Cue777

07-10-2008, 12:12 AM

Bob NH

07-10-2008, 05:37 AM

The first thing you should do is educate yourself so you understand what the vendors are trying to sell you, how it is supposed to work, and whether it will really do the job you need done.

The site at the link below provides a good description of the various iron removal processes. The links at the top of the article take you to equipment they sell, but you don't need to buy anything from them. You can get the same equipment from others on this forum.

http://www.excelwater.com/eng/b2c/iron.php

Killing the bacteria with bromine will not eliminate the iron. You need some kind of total solution.

The second link in your post has some fine-print footnotes that tell you why their system may not work.

Application of the principles of free-enterprise and competition is often the best way for consumers to approach these problems.

Find some local vendors of water equipment, and invite them to offer complete solutions. They should do a water test and tell you what is in the water and what they propose to do for what price.

Educate yourself using the internet to determine whether their proposals are reasonable and will do the job. You can find the same equipment and pricing from numerous sites on the internet.

Check to see what equivalent systems cost if you buy them yourself. There are people on this forum who sell good equipment, and there are other vendors that you can find if you do a search.

There is value in having someone install their system and warrant its performance. If you understand the systems and competitive pricing you can determine what is the cost of their local service and its value to you.

Suppliers will often give you a better price if they know there is competition, but you must be sure you are getting equivalent or the same equipment.

Every local seller/installer should warrant the equipment and the performance of their system. That is a big part of why local suppliers charge more than equipment-sellers.

Then make a decision based on your needs, confidence in the suppliers, and what you are confident that you can do yourself.

You will get better value in the end if you take the time to educate yourself, and if you are not anxious to get something done immediately.

Every homeowner of complex equipment should learn what it does and how it works. You will save $thousands$ if you know enough not be completely reliant on what someone tells you.

Cue777

07-10-2008, 07:58 AM

Believe me, I have educated myself and I do understand how the systems are supposed to work (more than I wanted to know in 3 weeks :) ) What I have found is everyone is trying to sell filters, which do not fix the well, only filter the water, So what happens when the Iron Bacteria gets even worse and the pump or pipes clog up? The Pipes are already somewhat clogged as I have removed a couple to check them so I don't see how any filters will work in the long run by themselves.

The Bioshield is supposed to remove all of the Iron Bacteria eventually, maybe not the Iron itself which is why a Filter of some sort would still be required but it wouldn't have to work as hard since the water coming into it is mostly clean.

What I have is Ferrous Iron and Iron Bacteria, Slime on the Toilet tanks and stains on all fixtures and Low PH of 5 which it seems the Iron filters I have seen need at least 6 to work properly.
I have been told by a few local water people that Chlorination does not work but it seems to be the recommended way to go on the net?

With the 2 systems I mentioned, both have already come out and tested the water and their systems are what they recommended, The Bioshield guy said after 30 days to test again and see what type of additional filters were needed. I was hoping someone had some experience with them here.

What systems would you recommend?

Gary Slusser

07-10-2008, 08:33 AM

I have a Bad Iron Bacteria problem. I just moved into a 4 year old house and the well water looks like tea when it comes out, very brown. The water was tested and showed over 6ppm of iron bacteria and low PH with the hardness at 2 grains. I tried Chlorinating it but it only went away for a day. I was told that does not work.
I can't believe the water has been like this for 4 yrs.. Is there any type of water treatment there now?

Maybe you just need to run the well off until the water gets clear.

I don't know how anyone can test for IRB and state the result in ppm, so how much iron is in this water?

What is the rest of the water analysis data?

Shocking a well repeatedly can make the problem worse. A pellet dropper or other consistent chlorination in the well can cause problems but, if needed and not done, the well suffers a loss of production and then you need well cleaning and rehabilitation. Pellet droppers can cause pump, power cable, drop pipe and water quality problems but they usually work well.

I have been talking to a couple local water "professionals" and one wants to sell me the unit that drops Bromine tablets in the well called Halosan at timed intervals for $1950
http://www.berrysystemsinc.com

And the other guy wants to sell me a Filter called the Sanitizer for $2450
http://www.water-right.com/residential/sanitizer/asc2/capacity1.htm

The first one makes sense because if the water is just filtered, then what happens when it gets real bad and clogs the pipes or pump?
The first one has no filter but they do have a small spin down type in one of their diagrams. You must prevent all of their equipment at the well casing from freezing. That may not be possible in most of the US.

The Sanitizer is a water softener. They do not kill anything, so that equipment is not going to work for iron or other bacteria control. The Sanitizer part creates chlorine during regeneration to sanitize the resin bed (actually their proprietary Zeolite Crystal), not the water going through the softener. If you went with that, it would be misapplied equipment. And you only have 2 gpg of hardness, so you don't need a softener.

Are there any other options out there or does anyone have any experience with either of these systems? The guys around here talk bad about any competitor saying their system doesn't work so I don't know who to believe. :mad:
Yes. And there are other means of treatment but, when you kill IRB and oxidize iron and manganese (if any), the water will be rusty and you must filter the particulates out to clarify the water. That requires an automatically backwashed filter. If you use chlorine, you will want to remove that along with the particulates with the backwashed filter.

I would suggest my inline pellet chlorinator and its special mixing tank (equivalent to a 120 gal retention tank), both have a 21 gpm flow rate, and then a correctly sized for your peak demand flow rate special carbon backwashed filter using a Clack WS-1 control valve. That equipment installs after your pressure tank. Then to treat the well as needed; like once per year or two and I tell you how to do that correctly.

You can install that equipment yourself in about 4 hours, or hire a plumber or handyman for a few hundred dollars. Or I also sell pellet droppers that mount on your well casing; you would still need the filter because when you kill IRB and their cells rupture, that releases iron back into the water which can make it rusty or cause staining problems.

Cue777

07-10-2008, 09:28 AM

The test they did was just for Iron, it was over the max limit of his meter which goes to 5ppm so it is at least 6ppm. I don't know how the house was lived in before either, the only filter system is a hole house filter which is just the string type for sediment and it is in the crawlspace, there are also about a dozen or more used, brown filters laying there so it has clearly been a problem in the past.
It was a forclosure home and one of the water guys that came out said it looked like there may have been some type of water conditioner mounted in the storage shed, they more than likely took it with them since they took everything else.

I dont think it is going to clear up by running it, I have run it for 3-4 hours evrryday for the past 2 weeks, its gets somewhat clear then cloudy again.

If I installed a inline Chlorinator then what happens when the bacteria get out of hand in the well itself and clog the pump?

Gary Slusser

07-11-2008, 03:11 PM

Iron is iron;ferrous or ferric, IRB is iron related bacteria and a whole lot different animal. So far you haven't given me anything to prove IRB, just an iron problem but... it is rare for a pump to be clogged up by IRB if you do some well maintenance periodically. And I tell my customer how what and when to do it.

The "whole house" filter could be making your problem worse and any water sample should have been taken before the filter. The 'filter' should be after the pressure tank too, not between the pump and the tank. If you ran water through that filter trying to clear up the well, I suggest removing the filter cartridge and doing it again. But be sure to not pull the well down too far or let the pump run dry.

When you stop running water, ferrous iron that came into the well with the recovery water can oxidize into ferric iron (rust) and that will discolor the water again. IRB does not act like that, it puts a clear to brown/black slime in the toilet tanks at and/or below the water line.

Cue777

07-11-2008, 03:50 PM

As I posted above, I do have slime in the toilet tanks and in the plumbing lines along with the brown water.

The whole house filter was removed once it became clogged and it is after the tank.

Cue777

07-11-2008, 09:05 PM

Want to come put one in my house in NC? :D

I am weighing in drilling a new well as it seems it may be cheaper than these expensive filters from the quote I got.

leejosepho

07-12-2008, 03:16 AM

I am weighing in drilling a new well as it seems it may be cheaper than these expensive filters from the quote I got.

My overall knowledge here is very limited, but I do have some experience with a well producing water similar to yours and trying to do something about it without having to spend a fortune I do not have.

What size is the "whole house" filter you have?

My water only looks like tea when I chlorinate it, but it is "crystal clear" (no turbidity at all) at the tap after passing through my pair of inexpensive filters (with a .5 micron cartridge at the end).

My suggestion is that you first get all the chunks out of the water as it enters the house, then chlorinate both the well and the plumbing in the house ... then turn your water heater up to at least 140* and see what happens. My sulfur odor still comes and goes a little from time to time, but I no longer have slime in my toilet tanks. We do have a water softener and we use the "iron fighting" formula of salt, but things are now just fine here without any expensive and/or high-maintenance equipment.

PS: Take a look here ...
http://www.fsi-international.com/PDF/catalog/x100tech.pdf
... and there is some discussion about one of those filters here ...
http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20926

speedbump

07-12-2008, 06:54 AM

Your low PH may be a problem in more ways than one. The low PH makes it harder for some Filters to remove the iron once oxidized. It may also be the source of your Iron Bacteria if you do in fact have it.

I don't recommend dropping anything into a Well continuously because of the same issues Gary mentioned. I could tell you some stories about Pellet Droppers.

I have sucessfully eradicated Iron Bacteria in many Wells over the years by Chlorinating the well once. In a few cases, more treatment was necessary and in a few, nothing helped. I would try the Chlorination a few times before I bought anything, then if the Chlorination helps, go about getting some new bids on simply getting rid of the Iron. I believe you will have to raise the PH first.

bob...

Gary Slusser

07-12-2008, 11:38 AM

As I posted above, I do have slime in the toilet tanks and in the plumbing lines along with the brown water.
OK, you have some slime in the toilet tanks, it may or may not be IRB. It may or not be a problem, or it may be MRB or SRB. None of which are harmful to pets or humans. I can't tell unless we speak.

You need a good water analysis and to post real numbers; your iron can be much more than 6 ppm.

You really don't want to drill a new well and get the same or worse water quality than you have now, and have less money to buy treatment equipment with, right?

You need to make up your mind if you want to be a DIYer or to be dependent on a dealer for installation and service, especially a dealer selling proprietary equipment that only he can get parts for.

I do not like and won't sell solution feeders. They take a lot of baby sitting and are difficult to keep in adjustment. That applies to whatever type pump is used or if you use peroxide or chlorine.

The vast majority of prospective customers do not want to mix solution every few weeks or sooner and play with their pump (dosage) in an attempt to get a solution feeder to work.

Most also want to be independent from any dealer and do their own installation and repair if needed.

The chlorination system I mentioned never fails to do the job and I buy it direct from the manufacturer. I also buy from Nelsen Corp. and they did not use the manufacturer's chlorinator, they used the impostor/knock off version or as Andy did, a solution feeder. Only one of my 60+/- customers with this system have had the distributor tube block up. He has had the system 4.5 years and that was because he left the chlorine run out. That happened just last month. He was stretching his 2.5 months between adding new pellets to 3 months. He spent about an hour to clean the distributor tube and came up with that as the problem because he was losing "pressure" (actually flow) and traced the cause to the mixing tank.

You can check out what my chlorination customers have to say about it on my forum and others. I have sold it for the last 12 years. It is a very simple system that takes up little space and requires the least maintenance of any iron, H2S, manganese or bacteria treatment system on the market. It is also the least expensive; delivered for $773.00 plus the correctly sized carbon filter.

Your low pH is perfect for oxidation of iron and killing bacteria of all kinds but, it really should be treated because it will be dissolving metals into your water and you run the risk of pinhole leaks in copper tubing and serious water damage problems and their expense.

Here is a picture of one installed by my customer (in NC IIRC). I don't like the box platform or the unions he used or the way he plumbed it with all the elbows and his unfinished drain line but, it is fine the way it is. He did it in about 2.5 hrs and it cost him about $1600 including delivery by UPS.

The maintenance is to flush some water out of the gray tank once per month for a few minutes and to clean the chlorinator and add pellets about every 2-3 months. That takes about 30-40 minutes. And they work every time as long as you keep pellets in them.

leejosepho

07-12-2008, 01:18 PM

Chlorinating the water and then watching the water turn color is normal as you have agitated the iron (or other elements) and taken it out of solution. It is still turbid if you can see the color, though. Maybe what you mean is that you don't see cloudiness of varying thickness.

I do not normally chlorinate, and the turbidity (a mere milkiness) I have mentioned seems to be from clay. However, my .5 filters do come out brown even though the water does not actually look that way unless it is chlorinated (like when I recently filled my backyard pool).

Bob NH

07-12-2008, 07:47 PM

Want to come put one in my house in NC? :D

I am weighing in drilling a new well as it seems it may be cheaper than these expensive filters from the quote I got.

Drawing to fill an inside straight is probably better odds than getting rid of iron by drilling a new well. If there is iron in the aquifer you are probably going to get it with a new well.

sammyhydro11

07-13-2008, 07:27 AM

sammyhydro11

07-13-2008, 02:40 PM

I would think that it would be a softener and don't know why else you wouldn't install a softener after the carbon. A mixed bed filter with, Ag, calcite, corosex, and birm should have a softener after it too in order to reduce water hardness.

I once asked gary about any adjustments on that feeder and his reply was, " I don't know". So if there is one, it may be good as long as it's installed right.

sammy

Gary Slusser

07-13-2008, 03:57 PM

Gary,
how do you adjust the feed rate on that chlorinator so you don't exhaust the carbon?What about the test on the discharge of the carbon filter, shouldn't it be less than one part chlorine so you dont degrade the softening resin?? A chemical feed pump allows you to adjust the rate and proper mixture is determined by the amount of iron in the water. So how does your chlorinator work? Does it magically figure that all out on its own? What kind of good water analysis,like maybe the ones from Lowe's that you don't mind working with? What's up with those plastic unions and the leaning tower of Pisa? Those plastic unions are probably the most problematic fittings that i have ever dealt with, never mind a home owner dealing with them. Those also look difficult to take apart, seeing the way you have them directly mounted on a piece of plywood. That whole thing looks and sounds very appeasing to a do it yourselfer because there is nothing very difficult about it but the question is, "How long will it work?" There is no such thing as an easy way out with chlorinating water, either your doing it right or your doing it wrong. Unless that setup has the right adjustments to it, it's garbage. But to a do it yourselfer, "it's magically delicious".
Sammy, my customers set the chlorine dose that I tell them to use and trust me, there is a way to adjust the volume of chlorine. On the install in my picture, it is not done with the knob you can see on the chlorinator; it is inoperable on his. In some cases the knob is operable, but that is rare and dictated by the application.

My customer installed the equipment in that picture and I've already given my comments on it in my other post... Yes he didn't follow instructions to 'plumb' the one tank or it is the angle of the picture that makes it look as if it is leaning.

If you use carbon after chlorination, there will be no chlorine left in the treated water. All carbon used to remove chlorine will eventually require replacement; usually measured by years. That equipment is used to remove bacteria, H2S gas and some iron.

Those plastic unions have never failed. But if you have problems using them, I suggest you read and follow the directions. As to taking things apart, the chlorinator comes off line with the unions and the by-pass valve on the filter control valve provides an extremely easy way to do it.

I have sold the chlorinator and mixing tank for 10 years. It is simple, inexpensive and works every time and for many years with the least maintenance of any chlorination system. People need to beware that the knock off version does not work very well at all and it is not what I sell. Externally they look very much alike but the knock off has a dark gray lid; that used to be white.

Gary Slusser

07-13-2008, 04:40 PM

Sammy,
I don't see a softener unless it is out of sight. That is most likely a backwashing filter using a multi-media bed. I think there is a small dial on the pellet feeder that is adjusted to program how many pellets goes into it at a give rate.
Yes there is no softener. Yes it is a filter, but it is a special carbon filter.

On that make/model of chlorinator, the knob is inoperable. I also sell a model that the knob does operate. They look identical. Once the pellets are added, they don't go anywhere else, they dissolve.

I don't see a test valve after the filter telling whether the chlorine is adjusted properly. I have never used one of these pellet feeders. Our company had installed a few well-cap pellet feeders, but these were problematic and we have found better ways to handle chlorination systems.
That is not a "pellet feeder".

You don't see a "test valve" because it isn't needed in the plumbing.

I've never had any problems with any well casing installed pellet droppers I've sold except for one at a large campground with 3 wells. Their maintenance man made and installed a large heavy wooden box over it and didn't leave any ventilation and the sun provided heat caused a part on the motor to fail.

To my knowledge, all commercial establishments with their own water source, in all US States are required to have quarterly water tests done. I have installed a lot of equipment in places where those tests were required. But UV is never required after chlorination; especially when the required residual of .5 to 1.5 mg/l or ppm of free chlorine is adhered to and/or after installation of the chlorination no check samples fail.

T_Hartigan

07-13-2008, 04:41 PM

I can attest that the setup mentioned by Gary works good. I've been using it since January with great results.

Definitly plumb in valves that connect to drains as it makes adding pellets easier.

I've been adding pellets every 2 months.

Tim

Gary Slusser

07-14-2008, 08:32 AM

I've never put UV after chlorination, either. I'm not sure why that would be done or suggested.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II
OH... but you said you did. Here is what I was replying to.

This was another system for a campgrounds that needed chlorination. We also softened the water and disinfected with a Hallett UV. This needed to be certifiec by the health department and has spot inspections.
http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/th.10195a37f0.jpg (http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?10195a37f0.jpg)

Andy Christensen, CWS-II
You using UV after chlorination.

Redwood

07-14-2008, 07:12 PM

Ding... Ding! LOL

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f2/Redwood39/ufcringgirl.jpg

Mikey

07-15-2008, 04:47 AM

Ding... Ding! LOL

Ding ... Ding indeed! Now I know why guys go to those fights!

Gary Slusser

07-15-2008, 10:11 AM

I neither did nor say that. What are you talking about? There's is no indication, declaration, implication or proclamation, statement or picture that shows the UV is AFTER the chloination. No use of sequential adverbs related to equipment descriptions were used. You base your statement on presumptive suppositions alone. Even showing you pictures doesn't seem to help. But then....oh well, never mind.

Whew! I'm glad that is settled. Or wait, maybe I'll need to explain it agian??? Next, you're probably going say I said that filters go after the UV, and solution pump inside the retention tank, right?

Anyway, Gary, you need to relax a little more, Take it easy. It's a beautiful day. Focus. Enough said on this topic.
Settled! you wish... I quoted what you said, you used UV and chlorination and now you're playing word games.

You may have the UV before the chlorination instead of after it, you can't tell by the poor quality of the picture you posted from another site that sometimes takes more than a minute to view the picture or it times out your browser BUT...

IMO there is no reason to sell people both UV and chlorination except to make more money and to do that you must be taking advantage of their ignorance of water treatment but please post your reason(s) or the need for both. Then it will be "settled".

speedbump

07-15-2008, 12:20 PM

I neither did nor say that.

Gary... those ain't big words!

bob...

Cue777

07-15-2008, 07:04 PM

speedbump

07-16-2008, 06:45 AM

Some of us just get very angry when we know someone is ripping you off. It goes against the grain so to speak.

Since we know what is good and what is bad in this industry, we can see through a lot of the BS that the ordinary customer/homeowner would tend to believe.

bob...

Gary Slusser

07-16-2008, 01:20 PM

This is the EXACT kind of arguing and bickering I am receiving around here from the local guys. Each seller says another's idea or product doesn't work, or theirs is the best. :rolleyes::(

My water was tested again today for the 3rd time from a Well and Pump water conditioner company they got 4 1/2 PPM Iron and 6 PH.
Actually I see it as debate and weeding out salesmen BS but...

Are you now saying you don't have IRB in your water? If so, then an iron filter should work but, with your low pH, you need an acid neutralizing filter. That will remove some of the iron and I suggest only the backwashed type. Then a specially built softener designed to remove 4.6 to 6 ppm+ of iron and the raw water and added hardness form the AB filter.

Cue777

07-16-2008, 03:31 PM

Actually I see it as debate and weeding out salesmen BS but...

From my end it just seems like more salesman BS when the arguing goes on, the consumer doesn't know who to believe so it all sounds the same.

Are you now saying you don't have IRB in your water? If so, then an iron filter should work but, with your low pH, you need an acid neutralizing filter. That will remove some of the iron and I suggest only the backwashed type. Then a specially built softener designed to remove 4.6 to 6 ppm+ of iron and the raw water and added hardness form the AB filter.

All anyone tests for around here is Iron, they don't say what kind it is only that it is 4 PPM. What specific kind of test is used to determine if it is Iron Bacteria? I assume it is since the slime. I have slime in the Toilet tanks and the plumbing lines.

I got a quote today and the guy said it had low PH, 4ppm Iron and Mud in the water, this is the only guy that has said Mud and I don't believe that. I Chlorinated the well yesterday for the second time and while the Chlorine is in the water it is crystal clear, as far as I know Chlorine wont remove mud :)

He wants $5300 :eek: for a Iron filter, Mud filter and softener LOL I don't think so....

ecpgroup

07-18-2008, 08:46 AM

use manganese greensand filter,then phup unit to get back to 7, then softner, then uv then ro under the sink unit. water will be clear and good

these are the units we sell

www.shakesby.net trouble is uk only i am affraid.

a lot of the stuff from the usa seems to be very old and looks odd like the culligan units horrible things.

Gary Slusser

07-18-2008, 03:43 PM

Cue and I spoke late yesterday and went over the things he mentioned above.

He does not have mud in his water.

A manganese greensand filter is not going to treat IRB problems and you can not use UV on any type of reducing bacteria problem; it will not cure that type of bacteria problems and they will prevent the UV from killing other bacteria.

Cue777

07-18-2008, 07:45 PM

Mikey

07-19-2008, 04:02 AM

And Gary, the Chlorination system you mentioned, the Chlorine is supposed to Oxidize the Iron, then it goes to the Carbon filter to remove the Chlorine, does the Carbon filter also remove the Oxidized Iron and should the water be clear after leaving the Carbon filter?
From my experience (I have pretty much the same problem you do) the answer is "not very". I inject liquid chlorine while the pump is running, and the water goes into a 120gal holding tank. Coming out of the tank, there's a high residual Cl level. We then go through a string filter which needs to be changed every month. Then to the carbon filter and a softener. After all this the water looks OK and tastes fine, but there's an iron residue left in toilet tanks and on the dish drainer at the sink.

leejosepho

07-19-2008, 07:30 AM

I have shocked the well with Chlorine, this has made the water crystal clear. Now if there was Iron or Iron Bacteria in the water, which the tests says there is, from my understanding the Chlorine should have oxidized it and made the water brown ...

In my own experience, the stuff that is oxidized and brown settles somewhere rather than being suspended in the water. After filling my 1000-gallon backyard pool a couple of weeks ago, I chlorinated it with bleach then came back the next day and simply swept the brown stuff off the bottom.

The same kind of thing should (or at least could) happen after chlorinating an iron-rich well. When I did mine, I used a trash pump at the top of the well to purge it the next morning and I got some very-slightly-tinted water as the barely-noticeable (visibly-diluted) stuff that had settled at the bottom of the well was stirred and pulled away.

I do not know how similar your well and mine might be, but the system Mikey has mentioned is something I had once considered before simply installing a pair of filters with .5 micron at the end leading into a water softener being fed by rust-remover salt ... and that is all I need for my water to be just fine. I do still get an occasional and slight sulfur odor, but that comes and goes with whatever changes evidently take place in the aquifer and it is quite tolerable. As an optometrist once said to me: "Less is better!" But, maybe he was just trying to keep me from seeing something?!

Gary Slusser

07-19-2008, 10:25 AM

OK I am still confused. :confused:

I have shocked the well with Chlorine, this has made the water crystal clear. Now if there was Iron or Iron Bacteria in the water, which the tests says there is, from my understanding the Chlorine should have oxidized it and made the water brown but this is not the case. I have not run all of the Chlorine out yet so I don't know what the water will be like after I do.

And Gary, the Chlorination system you mentioned, the Chlorine is supposed to Oxidize the Iron, then it goes to the Carbon filter to remove the Chlorine, does the Carbon filter also remove the Oxidized Iron and should the water be clear after leaving the Carbon filter?
As I told you, this is the second time you shocked the well in the last couple weeks. You shouldn't have much IRB in the well this soon afterwards. As far as ferric iron (rusty water), the water below your pump can not be pumped out of the well and rust will settle out into that area. The water above the pump's inlet will then be clear. And after the chlorine is unable to kill or oxidize anything then iron and IRB levels increase to what they were before.

My chlorination system kills all bacteria and oxidizes anything that can be oxidized. That happens in the mixing/retention tank. That will usually make the water rusty, depending on the amount of iron, manganese and IRB etc.. Then the carbon filter clarifies the water, meaning it removes the color/rust and removes the chlorine. The water past the carbon filter is chlorine free and pristine.

If you go with the AN filter (which you really need to protect the metals in your plumbing and fixtures), it buffers the acid in your water and raises the pH to roughly 7.0 to 7.5.

Gary Slusser

07-19-2008, 10:52 AM

From my experience (I have pretty much the same problem you do) the answer is "not very". I inject liquid chlorine while the pump is running, and the water goes into a 120gal holding tank. Coming out of the tank, there's a high residual Cl level. We then go through a string filter which needs to be changed every month. Then to the carbon filter and a softener. After all this the water looks OK and tastes fine, but there's an iron residue left in toilet tanks and on the dish drainer at the sink.
You should get rid of the toy "whole house" disposable cartridge filter and if your carbon filter is allowing chlorine and/or dirty water through it, then you need to replace the carbon and the filter is either too small for the SFR gpm of your family, number of bathrooms and type of fixtures or, you've ruined the carbon. That happens when retention is too short or you don't have a retention tank and are using the pressure tank for retention OR, you have the wrong type of carbon or you have a water leak somewhere etc.. Or you don't change your cartridge when it is needed and most probably that's fouled your carbon.

Solution feeders, regardless of the type/brand of pump used, rarely if ever work properly and/or for long without problems. I refuse to sell them. They require constant babysitting.

My inline erosion pellet chlorinator is a pressurized system, no mixing a solution every few weeks etc. in an atmospheric storage tank that allows the solution to start weakening as soon as it is mixed. No separation of the chlorine and water in the solution tank while the pickup tube is sucking up the strongest solution as it weakens to next to no chlorine content. There's no need to dump the retention tank and start over to get the right strength of solution and the right volume injected etc..

My system does not have those problems and works constantly without babysitting. All it requires is just once every month drain X gallons from the bottom drain on the mixing tank until the water gets as clear as possible and about every 2-3 months, you clean the hopper and add more pellets.

Mikey

07-19-2008, 11:03 AM

In my own experience, the stuff that is oxidized and brown settles somewhere rather than being suspended in the water.
Mine used to do that -- I just drained the holding tank now and then and some nasty brown water came out for a while. For the last 3 or 4 years, however, it drains clear. The oxidized iron stays in suspension and does not precipitate out. I took the system apart a while back and pressure-washed the tank just to be sure I wasn't missing anything, and it came out clean.

Gary Slusser

07-19-2008, 11:08 AM

IMO ,that means you don't have the amount of iron you used to, or you don't have the chlorine strength or dose set right.

Mikey

07-19-2008, 11:31 AM

Sorry, Gary, I didn't notice Page 2 of this thread before I replied to Lee.

You should get rid of the toy "whole house" disposable cartridge filter
I'd love to.

and if your carbon filter is allowing chlorine and/or dirty water through it, then you need to replace the carbon and the filter is either too small for the SFR gpm of your family, number of bathrooms and type of fixtures
The carbon is in a 10"x54" tank with a Fleck controller (unknown model - no markings at all) on it. Don't know what kind of carbon he used. 2 people, 2 baths, we use around 125gpd including softener regeneration. "Outside" water (irrigation, etc.) doesn't go through the filter.

or, you've ruined the carbon. That happens when retention is too short or you don't have a retention tank and are using the pressure tank for retention OR, you have the wrong type of carbon or you have a water leak somewhere etc.. Or you don't change your cartridge when it is needed and most probably that's fouled your carbon.
I don't doubt I need to replace the carbon. The original installer, however, said I only needed to do that when the water started to taste/smell of chlorine. It's now been 5 years since the carbon filter was rebedded, and there's no such taste or smell yet.

My inline erosion pellet chlorinator is a pressurized system, no mixing a solution every few weeks etc. in an atmospheric storage tank that allows the solution to start weakening as soon as it is mixed. No separation of the chlorine and water in the solution tank while the pickup tube is sucking up the strongest solution as it weakens to next to no chlorine content. There's no need to dump the retention tank and start over to get the right strength of solution and the right volume injected etc..

My system does not have those problems and works constantly without babysitting. All it requires is just once every month drain X gallons from the bottom drain on the mixing tank until the water gets as clear as possible and about every 2-3 months, you clean the hopper and add more pellets.
OK, I'm sold. I can believe the carbon is in need of replacement, and would like to try your system. I've got a couple of questions, but will check your website and try to carry on from there. One question of general interest, though might be: How is the pellet system metered? My liquid system pumps chlorine whenever the well pump runs, so it tends to overchlorinate when we're doing a lot of outside work.

Mikey

07-19-2008, 11:49 AM

IMO ,that means you don't have the amount of iron you used to, or you don't have the chlorine strength or dose set right.
Maybe more iron, don't really know. The chlorine dose may not be set correctly, but it's too high if anything.
More questions on the way via e-mail.

Mike

Mikey

07-19-2008, 12:28 PM

Another reason your iron may not be precipitaing can be that the solution can weaken in strength depending on age and storage methods. Chlorine gases can escape and the solution becomes weak.
Don't think that's the problem -- residual chlorine in the settling tank outflow is very high.

So attach the unit to the whole house flow meter side (after the outside lines)
Flows on the house side are too low to trigger any reasonably-priced flow meters I've seen; can you give me a make/model?

Cue777

07-19-2008, 06:57 PM

OK I finally got the Chlorine run out of the water, took around 9 hours total of running. The water was clear after it was out, for about 15 minutes. Now it is back to a very light brown color and it does not settle at the bottom when a glass is full which leads me to think it is Colloidal Iron? Will Chlorination remove that type of Iron?

Gary what are the specs of the Centaur Carbon filter as that item is not on your site?

Gary Slusser

07-19-2008, 10:53 PM

One question of general interest, though might be: How is the pellet system metered? My liquid system pumps chlorine whenever the well pump runs, so it tends to overchlorinate when we're doing a lot of outside work.
First it is not a pellet dropper as Andy seems to think it is; proving he is speaking about something he has no knowledge of.

My system is not "metered" and neither is a pellet dropper and it only adds chlorine when the pump is off. If you set the dose per my instructions you and your water will be fine. ;)

Cue777, IMO running so much water is pulling your well down far enough to allow a seam/strata/vein to run rusty or possibly muddy because the water runs into the well faster when it is free flowing as opposed to entering into the water in the well when the water level is above that area.

So test the discolored water for iron and see how much you have, if it is iron.

Colloidal iron is hard to impossible to filter. IMO you don't have that or the well water would always be discolored.

Cue777

07-20-2008, 07:38 AM

I tested it with the strips from Lowes, they show 5ppm Iron.

Also, what are the specs of the Centaur Carbon filter as that item is not on your site?

Gary Slusser

07-20-2008, 09:07 AM

What "specs" are you talking about? The carbon filter comes in various sizes so the specs are for the correct size based on the family size, number of bathrooms and type of fixtures you have. I went over all that with you on the phone.

The 5 ppm of iron proves you don't have mud but, did you run the water from the well and then back into the well with a garden hose when you shocked it? If not chlorine will settle out of the water to the bottom of the well, under the pump's inlet and may explain why the water is clear until you pump off a lot of water.

Cue777

07-20-2008, 09:32 AM

Yes, I told you on the phone I ran the hose into the well for over an hour after adding the Chlorine to circulate it.

The specs I am looking for are on the size of the Carbon filter you recommended to me.

Example

http://www.ohiopurewaterco.com/shop/customer/product.php?productid=645&cat=339&page=1

and the specs on this one are

# 10x44 resin tank
# 1.0 cubic feet of resin
# 5 gpm service flow rate
# 4.5 gpm backwash flow rate
# Floor Space Required is 11x14x51
# Shipping Weight is 90 lbs

So can you replace the specs on the table listed above with the one you recommended for me so I can compare and know what I am buying?

Gary Slusser

07-20-2008, 09:43 AM

I have found that OPW does not properly size equipment, as you see they say 5 gpm SFR, and that may not be the constant SFR, it may be the SFR @ 15 psi drop across the filter; that's what they and most other dealers give their prospective customer when asked about flow rates. As I told you on the phone, I suggest a 1.5' with a Clack WS-1 control valve.

Cue777

07-20-2008, 09:46 AM

OK, so this one then correct?

http://www.ohiopurewaterco.com/shop/customer/product.php?productid=21523&cat=339&page=1

ecpgroup

07-20-2008, 10:22 AM

so what is the iron then? if no body knows how the hell are you surposed to treat it. have a lab do a full report and test water not just on site test. an inderpendent report. if its not iron bacteria the mg filter will work fine. but seeing as though all you want to do is keep using chlorine then go ahead. it is a very bad chemical and leads to all sorts of other problems.
regards max

Gary Slusser

07-20-2008, 08:34 PM

The water treatment industry has been trying to get rid of manganese greensand filters for years because potassium permanganate is used to regenerate it. PP is a serious poison but Max, chlorine is nowhere near as bad.

If there is enough IRB, it can prevent a greensand filter from working.

ecpgroup

07-21-2008, 01:39 AM

yes potassium is very bad its my last choice of filter. if the Ph was not so bad then i would not try it. i would use a continuous aeration unit.

does the iron settle in glass in left for hrs? whats the water taste like very iron rich?

regards max

Cue777

07-21-2008, 11:04 AM

OK, so this one then correct?

http://www.ohiopurewaterco.com/shop/customer/product.php?productid=21523&cat=339&page=1

Gary, is that the one you were referring to??

What do you guys think about the Terminator Air Oxidizer? Supposedly it will Oxidize and remove the Iron by injecting air and it also raises the PH with Calcium filter I believe it was.

Cue777

07-22-2008, 04:13 PM

Did everyone leave? :confused:

2 more companies came out today to test the water.

One got 5.5 PH the other 6 PH
4-5PPM Iron
30 TDS from one and 60 TDS from the other
1 grain hardness.

One was a Kinetico rep and put some of my brown water thru his filter and it was clean, just not paying 6K for their equip they wanted to install thats for sure. :eek:

ecpgroup

07-23-2008, 01:00 AM

Cue777

07-23-2008, 08:00 AM

The Kinetico system they recommended is the 2060F
Nobody tested for Manganese.

Cue777

07-23-2008, 07:25 PM

Guess nobody is familiar with air oxidation then? :confused:

Cue777

07-24-2008, 07:27 AM

All of the plumbing is PVC so not much to damage other than the appliances, but I plan on correcting the PH as well. One bid is for a Acid Neutralizer, then air injection then to a custom Water softener to remove the Iron. I guess the Softener is supposed to be the retention tank.

Gary Slusser

07-24-2008, 09:19 AM

see how much difference between the hand held tests! a Ph of 6 is not so bad. i would then use a continuous aerating mixed bed filter with Ph and sirm (brim in USA). out of interest what system was the kinetico one? have you had a manganese reading taken?

regards max
A 6.0 pH is low (a 100 times more acidic than a 7.0 pH) and will eat metals in the plumbing system and a pH of 5.7 is much lower and requires a mixed bed AN mineral filter or solution feeder. A mixed bed turbidity filter using some calcite along with the rest of the minerals will not raise either pH sufficiently.

Aeration on this amount of iron will not work and will cause the water line after the injector to block up with rust in as little as a couple weeks. That prevents any filter from backwashing properly and it will fail. Birm or an AN filter with IRB present may not work very long.

You must kill all reducing types of bacteria IF there is enough to cause problems.

Cue777

07-24-2008, 09:35 AM

A 6.0 pH is low (a 100 times more acidic than a 7.0 pH) and will eat metals in the plumbing system and a pH of 5.7 is much lower and requires a mixed bed AN mineral filter or solution feeder. A mixed bed turbidity filter using some calcite along with the rest of the minerals will not raise either pH sufficiently.

Aeration on this amount of iron will not work and will cause the water line after the injector to block up with rust in as little as a couple weeks. That prevents any filter from backwashing properly and it will fail. Birm or an AN filter with IRB present may not work very long.

You must kill all reducing types of bacteria IF there is enough to cause problems.

You still have not answered my question I asked twice in my last posts about the Carbon Filter. :confused:

OK, I do not have Iron Bacteria, that is gone now. All I have is 4-5PPM Red water iron so it is already Oxidized, they were just recommending the air oxidization to get rid of any more Clear water Iron there may be, but there doesn't seem to be much. The Kinetico guy ran my water thru their filter and it reduced the Iron to less than .5ppm.

Gary Slusser

07-24-2008, 10:03 AM

I've answered all your questions about my equipment and I've told you what I know about your other choices.

You can not have ferric iron, rust, without having ferrous iron coming into the well with the recovery water or out of the drop pipe and other plumbing from the well etc.. The same for IRB, once it is in a well, it does not go away permanently because you shocked the well once or more. And you told me in our phone conversation that there was slime in the toilet tanks.

And you can not pump of the water containing the chlorine below the inlet of the pump and with the pool chlorine you used, that water will probably still have chlorine in it oxidizing ferrous iron in the water under the pump inlet. Chlorinated water, and bleach, has a higher viscosity than water, so the chlorine lays in the bottom of the well until it is used up by the demand for chlorine. That includes everything that can be oxidized or killed by chlorine.

You need to select someone, me or someone else and trust them to be able to correct your water quality problems. If someone sounds as if they know more about this stuff than I do, you should buy from them.

Cue777

07-24-2008, 10:15 AM

OK, so this one then correct?

http://www.ohiopurewaterco.com/shop/customer/product.php?productid=21523&cat=339&page=1

I asked if this is the Carbon filter you were recommending and got no answer.

There is no Chlorine in the well anymore, 3 people have tested for it before doing the other tests. I had Oxidized Iron before I ever Chlorinated the well, I just didn't know what it was called at that time. :)

The Ferrous Iron must be Oxidizing from the exposure to air in the well, if it wasn't wouldn't everyone in the world have only clearwater Ferrous Iron coming out of their Faucets? They don't from what I have read and people I have talked to.

Gary Slusser

07-24-2008, 07:14 PM

The filter is similar. Mine has a few extras they charge for if they have them.

You can't sample the water below the pump's inlet and all waters contain some DO (dissolved oxygen) and it will convert ferrous to ferric iron, especially at the static water line but, unless you get a sample out of the well, you can't say the water is rusty in the well. The rust can be coming out of the pipes.

Here is a picture of a 1" PE drop pipe I pulled, all but full of rust. The customer's water was loading up my twin tank softener with rust and rusty water was throughout the building.

Cue777

07-24-2008, 07:17 PM

I have been taking the samples from the well, there is a spicket right on top of the well and it is rusty Brown there. :)

Gary Slusser

07-24-2008, 07:20 PM

OK, you are not following me here.... The water you get out of that faucet is coming from the water the pump is sucking into its inlet.... now how deep is that in your well? It certainly is not at the top of the water in the well.

And you are not sampling from beneath the pump's inlet.

ecpgroup

07-25-2008, 01:57 AM

just because the Ph is 6 this does not mean it will eat the pipes. believe it or not we have some jobs where scale forms on pipes because the water is still hard and the water is 5.Ph

the filter will block after the injector hence why Mr shaksby invented this filter where it has had UK patents for years. it is ten times better then a standard triplex system.

to be honest the customer keeps asking the same questions over and over and re asking questions to confuse the situation. so best of luck

Cue777

07-25-2008, 05:35 AM

to be honest the customer keeps asking the same questions over and over and re asking questions to confuse the situation. so best of luck

I have not "re--asked" the same questions over and over other than ones that have not been answered, if you can't keep up then no need for you to post.

Andy it was the filter with what I think he called the Macrolite in it.

Redwood

07-25-2008, 07:56 AM

just because the Ph is 6 this does not mean it will eat the pipes. believe it or not we have some jobs where scale forms on pipes because the water is still hard and the water is 5.Ph

If the Ph is as low as 6.5 the pipes are in jepardy. A Ph of 5.7...:eek:

NSF International has certified several copper tube and fittings manufacturers to ANSI/NSF Standard 61. All have the limitation of being certified for use in non-corrosive aqueous environments. Specifically, the pH must not be below 6.5. Otherwise, resultant copper concentrations in tap water may exceed the action level established by the EPA.
http://www.nsf.org/business/newsroom/plumbing99-1/coppercert.html

Gary Slusser

07-25-2008, 09:24 PM

Andy, here is what you said that I replied to in my reply to Mikey (who placed his oder today to replace his solution feeder and retention tank and carbon). I assumed your "pellet drops" meant pellet dropper or droppers.

Some pellet drops are metered. The unit mentioned above is not, I believe. The pellets are saturated and dissolve. I don't think there is much control like a solution feed pump.
Pellet droppers are not metered. They are set/adjusted to drop 0 to x pellets per pump run based on the Free Chlorine.

Solution feeders give a false sense of "control" because you mix a solution to a certain volume of chlorine and water and then the injection pump has a dosage control but... as you mention below (see quote), the solution starts to weaken as soon as you mix it as the chlorine does as soon as you open the container and store it. Now tell me/us how you control a constantly weakening solution in the solution storage tank and the container the spare chlorine is stored in.

The truth is that a solution feeder causes the owner to constantly be chasing his tail trying to get them to work poorly.

Another reason your iron may not be precipitaing can be that the solution can weaken in strength depending on age and storage methods. Chlorine gases can escape and the solution becomes weak. Avoid using large containers ( with much air volume) and keep levels low rather high. That requiresd a little more attention but your results can improve.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

Gary Slusser

07-25-2008, 10:14 PM

Take it easy Gary, no need to be so aggressive.:o
Aggressive! A... I recall you've already been told that you may be too sensitive to post here and I guess you are if you see my comment as "aggressive!

I said: "Some pellet drop(per)s are metered. The unit mentioned above is not, I believe.

I clearly said I was not talking about the one you use.
I've spent some time glancing through the posts above your post where you said that and I can't find where you say you weren't talking about mine. How about a quote of what you now say you were talking about, and also where you say you weren't talking about mine. Otherwise I and possibly others will consider your defensiveness as offensive.

So if the pump is off for, say two months, it is adding chlorine for two months. Maybe it was your wording.;)
My words were, "my chlorinator does not add chlorine when the pump is running." What's to not understand?

Pellet dropper manufacturers recommend a test valve.
Again, it's not a pellet dropper or pellet feeder, it is a chlorinator and there is no need to test for chlorine with a test kit.

Cue777

07-25-2008, 11:17 PM

07-25-2008, 11:25 PM

These are really a great bunch of guys and they really know the ins and outs of their business. Just like in any field, it can get heated because of the diverse opinions and beliefs. It happens. At least via these means, it is just words.

Redwood

07-26-2008, 10:53 AM

I had a local guy install equipment today and it is working perfectly.

Time will tell what did you get?

Mikey

07-26-2008, 11:39 AM

I'd also like to know (from anybody) what test is/was used to determine the presence and quantity of "iron bacteria" in a well.

Gary Slusser

07-26-2008, 11:05 PM

This bickering like a bunch of Children is ridiculous, and is also why I didn't order anything from people here bickering. I had a local guy install equipment today and it is working perfectly.

Maybe you should learn how to be professional if you run a professional business and not talk negatively or arrogantly when posting on a public forum. That is if you want to convey a professional image of your business. :rolleyes:
Steve is it? Sorry you see it that way. I see it a bit differently, I have since part way through our phone conversation. Thats based on many phone calls and emails etc. from thousands of people over the last 12 years on the internet.

I wish you well with your new equipment. A couple pictures of it would be a nice gesture for all the help you received here.

Gary Slusser

07-26-2008, 11:13 PM

I'd also like to know (from anybody) what test is/was used to determine the presence and quantity of "iron bacteria" in a well.
I hear some labs do tests for it or some of the many types of bacteria that make up IRB but, slime in toilet tanks, or an oily film on the water in the tanks is the best way IMO. An oily film is usually manganese reducing bacteria.

There is also a set of tests called the BARTS tests. They are expensive and identify a number of different groups of bacteria. Some of the test results can take up to month to read but they can be done on site. Possibly some labs are using that type of test.

ecpgroup

07-28-2008, 03:18 AM

yes i would like to know what you have gone for as well? i am glad its working well hope it does in 2 years time or 2 months time thats the sign of a good system. you have to see that people where only trying to help you and did not want to offer you something that did not work or cure you problem water. regards max

Mikey

07-28-2008, 05:06 AM

There is also a set of tests called the BARTS tests. They are expensive and identify a number of different groups of bacteria. Some of the test results can take up to month to read but they can be done on site. Possibly some labs are using that type of test.
Thanks for the lead. I use HACH test kits, and sure enough they have a "BART Test Combination Package, Iron-Related Bacteria, Sulfate-Reducing Bacteria, Slime-Forming Bacteria (3 of each)", for $92.05.

I guess the question is, how would it change my life to know exactly what I've got? Is it worth $92.05 (plus tax, shipping, tag, title, fuel surcharge, handling, etc.)? Whatever I've got in the well, the treatment system puts out excellent water now, and will no doubt do even better with my new QWA chlorinator, right?