Measuring solder

[Ian Gills]

As my soldering gets better and better, I am now at the stage of measuring off my solder to get the best, most pretty joints. I mark pencil lines on the solder to guide me.

For 1/2" pipe I use 1/2" of solder.

For 3/4" pipes I use 3/4" of solder.

On 1/2" brass fittings I can almost make the joints invisible, which is my utlimate aim.

Does this sound right? And could I use even less to get the optimal joint?

I do have too much time on my hands.

[westcoastplumber]

thats the myth.

here is my view, I wanna turn the water on and not have a leak:D

you can use 1" of solder on a 1/2" joint, or 2" and still get a pretty joint.

have you pressure tested your joints? you can have invisable solder and visable leaks

they alsways have propress :)

[Ian Gills]

No leaks West Coast. Well, one, once, but that was when I was going heavy on the solder rushing to do the final joint in a very tight space near the joists and worrying about fire.

But it does really annoy me when experienced plumbers leave blobs of solder hanging from a joint. It looks so amateur. Where is the pride in the work?

Amateurs use too much solder. It's just a fact and I do not want to look like an amateur, even if I am one.

There's very little point doing DIY if it looks like DIY.

Even worse than blobs are silver, solder smeared pipes. Drives me mad.

It's not just about no leaks. It's about form as well as function. Doing copper pipework should be like crafting fine jewelery.

Something you take time over, at the weekends, with a smile on your face.

You plumbers have the best job in the world! It must be hard tearing yourself away from it to go home for the family at the end of the day. I'd just be tempted to keep plumbing 24/7!

[westcoastplumber]

I have been soldering for 11 years, I have massive pride in my work.

I like peace of mind and sleep over worrying if I am going back in 6 months to repair a slow leak.

There is a big difference between knowledge and amature work, I have seen many leaks, most recently one in a 1" copper line, didn't leak on the previous plumber for over 12 months, and when I pulled the fitting apart, no solder, it was on an exterior isolation valve.

It does not always need to leak when the water is first turned on.

Experience and Pride over invisable solder. peace of mind and sleep.

[Ian Gills]

You're the first plumber I have met who worries about losing sleep over other people's plumbing.

This is very reassuring.

There must be the occassional job when you forget that you checked everything (even though you did check everything)?

Must drive you mad.

I go crazy if I forget to remember if I checked my front door was locked after I leave for work every morning.

[hj]

You have WAY too much time on your hands if you actually measure and mark your solder. Put as much solder into the joint as it takes to make a tight joint, and not leave excess. But since we are working at it for a living, I will use a bit more solder and save the time that measuring it would take.

[Basement_Lurker]

I would never trust making a solder joint with a pre-measured amount of solder which was primarily done for aesthetic considerations; there are too many situations where you don't have full access to the fitting and have to use a bit more solder to make sure the joint was done properly. I have come across too many joints that just pull apart long before their time because the "plumber" didn't use enough solder or only fed the solder at one point to make the joint.

But everyone has their own techniques and tricks, and to each their own. If you want to test your joints to see if solder is actually penetrating the joint far enough and evenly enough, you can make a few test joints of each size, cut the fitting above and below the joints, slice it lengthwise, flatten the tube/fitting in a vice, and then pull the two sections apart by force and see how well the joint was soldered.

I must admit that I occasionally have solder run down on vertical joints, and I am not proud of that, but I do so very little copper work these days. My hat off to the artisans who do their copper soldering flawlessly.

[Cass]

I can't tell you the number of joints I have pulled apart over the years that looked fine on the outside but the solder only penetrated the joint maybe 1/16 of an inch or so in spots.

I add enough solder from the top 180 degrees of the fitting till it begins to form a drop on the underside of the fitting, then wipe it.

Oatey #95 flux helps the solder flow.

BTW the joints I pulled apart were not mine

[Redwood]

I use a micrometer to measure my solder for that perfect joint! ROFLMAO

Seriously, if you measure solder you have way too much time on your hands!
Pay attention to the important stuff like cleaning the pipe and fitting very well.
Using enough of a good quality flux before sweating and not afterwards.
Wipe joints clean afterwards with a cotton rag or glove.
If you are new to soldering disassemble some joints and make sure that you are getting full penetration.

I actually use 2 different fluxes.

For new work where there is no water present and the work is clean and easy. I use NOKORODE® Aqua Flux™. http://www.rectorseal.com/index.php?site_id=1&product_id=240

For repair work which is what I do most often where I'm fighting the water and other factors. I use NOKORODE® Regular Paste Flux.http://www.rectorseal.com/index.php?site_id=1&product_id=239

[Ian Gills]

Like I keep trying to say, plumbing is a hobby for me. It is a joy to do and not a chore so I do not mind taking hours over it.

Thanks for all of the comments though. I will try to be more liberal with my soldering.

One technique I do use is to solder as much "away from the project" as possible. This means I can visually look inside each joint, from down the pipe, to see how the solder has taken before I make the final connection to the existing plumbing.

A tape measure and a pencil really is the best plumbing equipment to use, not only for solder but also for cutting the pipe.

[Cass]

Wow, thats all I can say...

[westcoastplumber]

Like I keep trying to say, plumbing is a hobby for me. It is a joy to do and not a chore so I do not mind taking hours over it.

Thanks for all of the comments though. I will try to be more liberal with my soldering.

One technique I do use is to solder as much "away from the project" as possible. This means I can visually look inside each joint, from down the pipe, to see how the solder has taken before I make the final connection to the existing plumbing.

A tape measure and a pencil really is the best plumbing equipment to use, not only for solder but also for cutting the pipe.



It would take me 5 years to complete a 2 bath re-pipe :eek:

when your under a house running pipe, repairing a leak on an emergency shut down for a hospital at 2am, in a confined space, all that 1/2 for 1/2, 3/4 for 3/4 etc goes right out the window.

have fun with your hobbie, it sounds really fun for you. take some pictures, I would love to see it.

look on my site, you will see my on job soldering:p I am flat rate, so I can't spend all day on the job;):D

[Basement_Lurker]

Truly, it made me smile to read Ian's beaming enthusiasm for his plumbing work. But I guess that's usually the difference between a hobby and a job in any situation.

Keep up the good work Ian, and always strive to do it right the first time! :)

[master plumber mark]

You really dont know the frustration and disgust that
happens when you got an employee that wants to measure
solder........

and then wants to get into a plumbing pride and plumbing
manhood debate with you about it.....thats always fun..

presently I have an idiot that has it in his head that you dont
need more than 1/2 inch of solder fo r a 1/2 joint and 3/4 inch
solder for a 3/4 joint...and their is no talking him out of it...

he basically can solder someting just good enough to last about
untill the time they get home. and sit down to supper.....

this is actually a "talent or skill" that cant be taught....
to be able to solder a "timed released leak"....
it lasts just long enough to get out of the home ...

of course someone else has had to go behind him and
fix the mistakes later on that day or evening.
.30 miles away.... and of course it cant be his soldering abilities
it must have been a bad joint....

I have threatened to take pics of the work and dock him on
the pay check next time it happens..because I am the guy
that has to go back and fix the problems.


Solder is about 12 dollars a roll.......slop it on ,
let it drip once or twice...... then take a rag and wipe it off
all neat and clean looking..... Use the whole 12 dollar roll if you must....

gas is 4 dollars a gallon....xx how far away

my time is invaluable....

going back out that evening at midnight to fix a leak
30 miles away becasue of stupidity like this is
simply PRICELESS.

[Ian Gills]

Since you are all so busy poking fun at me, I thought I would share another gem with you.

I use a dentist's mirror to examine my finished joints in tight spaces before turning the water on. Works wonders.

I really do take my time.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/46/Dentalmirror09-10-05.jpg/150px-Dentalmirror09-10-05.jpg

[Redwood]

I often use a mechanics mirror... Bigger Picture!:D

[Ian Gills]

For close-up work I use jewelers goggles, especially when I am trying to get the joints on 1/2" pipe just so.

It really is important to take time, to perform this craft with precision.

[master plumber mark]

are soldering something going to be installed
on the next space shuttle???

or is this just a water heater or supply line to a toilet we are talking about???

you can take precision to the absurd..........


I am not pokeing fun at you but seriousley....

you have waaaayyyyy too much time on your hands...

have you considered...... fly hook tieing????


I wish I could say I had lots of time on my hands.

[Ian Gills]

I'm only joking!

[Basement_Lurker]

Yikes, take it easy on him guys!

Gary, they make inspection mirrors similar to the one you showed where the mirror is on a ball joint at then end of a rod so that you can twist it to get the proper angle. Those come in very handy for renovation work where you don't have the luxury of soldering everything while the framing is all open and exposed like in new construction. Good job if you picked up on using one of those on your own!

[Mikey]

While I don't mark my solder at the diameter of the pipe, I do have a rough feeling for how much solder is enough. If the joint keeps accepting solder after it's had "enough", I know something's wrong -- usually happens on vertical runs with the joint downward, and on inspection there's usually a big glob of solder that made it through the joint and eventually stopped running somewhere where the pipe was cool. In the (thankfully few) instances where it's happened to me, I usually attributed it to an ill-fitting joint (too loose, deformed pipe). Taking care during the prep work seems to be the solution.

[Redwood]

This would be the mirror I use.

http://www.partsamerica.com/product_images/aap/apo/apo_t73552.jpg

[Mikey]

That's my kind of workbench. Do you use the Hydroflux Welder for plumbing? That'll blow away the Mapp crowd for sure, and it's non-oxidizing as well!

[Mikey]

This would be the mirror I use.

http://www.partsamerica.com/product_images/aap/apo/apo_t73552.jpg
Mine's a lot dirtier and it's got a crack in it.

[Ian Gills]

Thanks Mikey. This post is attacting a lot of attention.

I do find that the use of all gasses for soldering has drawbacks. Pressurized bottles can be costly, dangerous and are prohibited in increasing numbers of municipalities and states. In addition, these gasses generally do not burn cleanly and can leave excessive oxidation and "fire scale" on the pipes and fittings. The HydroFlux Welder answers all these needs and more. The HydroFlux is an oxyhydrogen generator that operates by converting distilled water into an oxygen/hydrogen fuel gas. The HydroFlux Welder creates gas on a demand basis. This means that there is no potentially dangerous stored gas.

Because the HydroFlux Welder burns a gas that has a high hydrogen content, it produces what is referred to as a "reducing" flame. What this means is that the flame of the HydroFlux Welder will actually eliminate oxides to some extent. Because it reduces or eliminates oxidation, soldering with the HydroFlux Welder is much cleaner than what can be achieved with traditional torches. However, the reducing flame of the HydroFlux is only effective where the flame is actually in contact with the copper fitting. Because of this, I always use a flux dip prior to soldering, and a suitable flux when soldering to ensure clean, perfect joints.

It's a $1000 well spent.

I assume comments will follow........

[Redwood]

Mine's a lot dirtier and it's got a crack in it.

My old one was dirty and cracked too... I got a new one last week after a chunk fell out of the mirror.:D

[Mikey]

My old one was dirty and cracked too... I got a new one last week after a chunk fell out of the mirror.:D
They used to sell replacement mirrors, but that was long ago in a better world.

[frenchie]

You really dont know the frustration and disgust that
happens when you got an employee that wants to measure
solder........

and then wants to get into a plumbing pride and plumbing
manhood debate with you about it.....thats always fun..

presently I have an idiot that has it in his head that you dont
need more than 1/2 inch of solder fo r a 1/2 joint and 3/4 inch
solder for a 3/4 joint...and their is no talking him out of it...

he basically can solder someting just good enough to last about
untill the time they get home. and sit down to supper.....

this is actually a "talent or skill" that cant be taught....
to be able to solder a "timed released leak"....
it lasts just long enough to get out of the home ...

of course someone else has had to go behind him and
fix the mistakes later on that day or evening.
.30 miles away.... and of course it cant be his soldering abilities
it must have been a bad joint....

I have threatened to take pics of the work and dock him on
the pay check next time it happens..because I am the guy
that has to go back and fix the problems.


Solder is about 12 dollars a roll.......slop it on ,
let it drip once or twice...... then take a rag and wipe it off
all neat and clean looking..... Use the whole 12 dollar roll if you must....

gas is 4 dollars a gallon....xx how far away

my time is invaluable....

going back out that evening at midnight to fix a leak
30 miles away becasue of stupidity like this is
simply PRICELESS.



Uh, Mark?

I worked in the trades, all over, as an employee, for 15 years - I've worked for plasterers, carpenters, boatwrights, plumbers, electricians, remodelers... all kinds.

I've never worked under anyone who didn't expect me to fix my own screwups, on my own time. Never. Not once.

It's supposed to be the employee going back, on HIS own time, to fix his screwups. NOT YOU!

... ESPECIALLY if you've told him how to do it, and he's stubbornly sticking to his own way.


Look at it this way - you're depriving this guy of the opportunity to learn from his mistakes.

[osx-addict]

Hi all.. Thought I'd chime in on this very interesting (and amusing) thread.. We had a remodel done late last year and we had to do the '3-strikes' game with our plumber.. The main portion of the plumbing was done just fine (DWV + new hot/cold lines -- all done by one guy over the course of a number of weeks).. The annoying part was when his 'other' guys came over to do the finish work -- hooking up sinks, toilets, showers, etc.. Below are a few of the odd problems I had over the course of a single week :


Toilet installation -- I've done it a bunch of times and have learned to take my time and do it right.. These guys came in, hooked them up OK but left two in a rocking condition on a tile floor. All 3 of them had toilet bolts longer than wanted so the caps couldnt be properly installed.. They had cut the bolts but cut them too long.. Sloppy work! More than likely I'll have to re-do some of this sloppy work -- when I've got some spare time..
Hot/cold water valve installation (removing the plugs on the new lines) -- the guy doing this task (by himself) cut off all plugs, installed all valves and left them all open and then proceeded to turn the water main back on.. :confused: He then did a half-assed cleanup of the pools of water and left, leaving the real cleanup to me.. I was furious as he had left pools of water in our brand-new installed cabinets, all over the tile floors, etc..
Same guy that did the 'work' above (flood) was tasked with re-installing our old gas water heater. It took the guy about 4 hours to do it since he spent probably 3 1/2 hours talking on the phone.. Needless to say his concentration was not there and the job was fairly sloppy (I could have done a better job).
Needless to say, there were other issues that occurred later when it was time to install faucets & showers and we told our contractor that he had to 'go'.. The contractor was so annoyed with this 'sub' of his that he no longer uses him.. Oh well..

[master plumber mark]

Uh, Mark?


Look at it this way - you're depriving this guy of the opportunity to learn from his mistakes.


Thank you for the advice......

but in my situation its all family...
and German on top of that....


I am not depriveing anyone out of any opprtunity
because a dumb dutchman can never
admit they are wrong even when it is
spraying them in the face...

[novicepiper]

me thinks master plumber mark is a comic on the weekends - seriously though ive done a little bit of plumbing etc and my pipes seem ok after around 6 wks - not secured them yet so they sway a little when pressured up - waiting for the plumber to come in and check what ive done is correct - what do you think the chances will be of them being ok? im not the tidy type of pipe sweater but ive done well over 100 joints (on the last 3 jobs i did fro myself) and no leaks as yet. i can see what he means when he says he's not likning the solder runs, personally i have total respect for plumbers. i get bored after about the tenth solder joint.

[Ian Gills]

Hydroflux welder anyone?

It appears that measuring solder is becoming almost as popular as where can I get a Bradford to install myelf?

[Redwood]

Now you've just started a whole new dimension as the thread turns to "My Elf."

Everyone should have there own personal Elf! LOL

[Squ1rrel]

One has to wonder what code regulates Elf Installations

[breplum]

I have been buying and using presoldered fittlings from http://www.presolderedfittings.com and have been very pleased with the price and results. They are actually cheaper (at least as long as they do free shipping with no minimums) and very easy to use.

It is kind of strange to do soldering without a roll of solder in your hand, but it is so easy and fun.

We follow up every solder joint with NoKorode regular flux while still warm, to brighetn up the joint before washing and wiping...looks better and helps remove the water-flux residue as well.

[Redwood]

Geez You should have been at Big Orange Box when they clearanced those handyman gimmicks off their shelves a year or 2 ago to make room for the sharkbites! I guess even the handyman types weren't willing to pay the extra $$ for them!

[taysan]

I used so much solder on an overhead joint in my basement that a giant blob fell on my forearm and stuck there. About 1" x 1" on my arm.

I have a nice solder-shaped scar on my arm to remind me of my plumbing efforts. Everytime my wife gets on my back about something I just point to the scar to remind her of my sacrifice for her finished basement.

[taysan]

Hi all.. Thought I'd chime in on this very interesting (and amusing) thread.. We had a remodel done late last year and we had to do the '3-strikes' game with our plumber.. The main portion of the plumbing was done just fine (DWV + new hot/cold lines -- all done by one guy over the course of a number of weeks).. The annoying part was when his 'other' guys came over to do the finish work -- hooking up sinks, toilets, showers, etc.. Below are a few of the odd problems I had over the course of a single week :


Toilet installation -- I've done it a bunch of times and have learned to take my time and do it right.. These guys came in, hooked them up OK but left two in a rocking condition on a tile floor. All 3 of them had toilet bolts longer than wanted so the caps couldnt be properly installed.. They had cut the bolts but cut them too long.. Sloppy work! More than likely I'll have to re-do some of this sloppy work -- when I've got some spare time..
Hot/cold water valve installation (removing the plugs on the new lines) -- the guy doing this task (by himself) cut off all plugs, installed all valves and left them all open and then proceeded to turn the water main back on.. :confused: He then did a half-assed cleanup of the pools of water and left, leaving the real cleanup to me.. I was furious as he had left pools of water in our brand-new installed cabinets, all over the tile floors, etc..
Same guy that did the 'work' above (flood) was tasked with re-installing our old gas water heater. It took the guy about 4 hours to do it since he spent probably 3 1/2 hours talking on the phone.. Needless to say his concentration was not there and the job was fairly sloppy (I could have done a better job).
Needless to say, there were other issues that occurred later when it was time to install faucets & showers and we told our contractor that he had to 'go'.. The contractor was so annoyed with this 'sub' of his that he no longer uses him.. Oh well..

Uh, how did the guy in problem #2 get tasked with installling your water heater? Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice... don't get fooled again (to quote the venerable GWB).

[krow]

Everytime my wife gets on my back about something I just point to the scar to remind her of my sacrifice for her finished basement. ROTFLMFAO,

This is too funny. I wish I could use that excuse :D

[frenchie]

You wish you'd burned yourself like that?

Or: you did burn yourself, but your wife won't let you use it as your excuse?


:p

[krow]

When I was just learning, a journey man said to me,
"If you play with fire long enough, eventually you are going to get burned".
At the time I didn't know what he meant.................. Until I found out the hard way

So I would have to say , the latter :p


Or: you did burn yourself, but your wife won't let you use it as your excuse?

[Mikey]

Here's a picture of a wife getting her husband ready to do a little plumbing:
4377

[Rob223]

As my soldering gets better and better, I am now at the stage of measuring off my solder to get the best, most pretty joints. I mark pencil lines on the solder to guide me.

For 1/2" pipe I use 1/2" of solder.

For 3/4" pipes I use 3/4" of solder.


Hmm have you really not noticed the big difference in area going from a 1/2 to a 3/4 fitting its alot more than 50%. I have not done the math but if a 1/2 joint really takes 1/2 inch I would think a 3/4 would take closer to 1inch due to much more of an area to fill, 3/4 fittings are much deeper than a 1/2 fitting. Taking pride in your work is one thing but theres a time and place percision, like work that will be in an exposed public area vs. under a floor or in a wall, lifes to short to get that anal about ROUGH work. FINISH work is whats appreciated. BUT to each his own!

[Mikey]

I have not done the math but if a 1/2 joint really takes 1/2 inch I would think a 3/4 would take closer to 1inch due to much more of an area to fill, 3/4 fittings are much deeper than a 1/2 fitting.

Assuming the solder flows to the same thickness in both joints, the 3/4" joint should take slightly over 2 times that of the 1/2" joint, based on a random sample of 2 fittings. The joint is not only wider in diameter, accounting for 1.4*, it's also longer (~1.5*).