PDA

View Full Version : Iron toilet drain, no flange, 1 bolt disintgrated, other rusted on?



eva01
03-07-2008, 09:33 AM
I removed my toilet and the concrete around it. I found one of the bolts has just turned to dust, the other one is rusted on. I believe the drain is cast iron or something else (it's black?). As you can see in the picture the one on the right is gone, and the hole expanded to the edge and now it's just a cutout.

The second picture is my upstairs neighbors toilet pipe for reference. I just don't know what I'm suppose to do to connect the new toilet.

1. From what I've been reading, there is suppose to be a flange that the bolts go into? There is no flange here, the bolts just go directly into the rim of the pipe. How do I get bolts back onto the drain?

2. Is there a flange I can get to go over the drain?

3. If I have to remove this section of pipe, how do I remove it from the stack? I'm guessing keep turning this thing counterclockwise...but I don't have a wrench that big:eek:
...From my experience with the other pipes, I know it'll be rusted.

4. If I can get it out, I'd like to replace it with cpvc, how do I connect it to the iron pipe. You can see in the second picture there's some kind of ring, not sure what it does yet.

5. Any other tips or suggestions would be great. If I do have to remove this section, I'll be extending it 2 inches because right now my rough-in is 10".

krow
03-07-2008, 10:06 AM
The rim of the pipe is the flange that the toilet sits on. Just replace the bolt.

To remove any cast iron on that system, you will need a "soil pipe cutter" or snap cutter. (A large chain like contraption with a large ratchet). No hub couplings are the hardware used to join cast iron.

http://www.terrylove.com/images/snap_cutter.jpg

eva01
03-07-2008, 10:09 AM
The rim of the pipe is the flange that the toilet sits on. Just replace the bolt.

To remove any cast iron on that system, you will need a "soil pipe cutter" or snap cutter. (A large chain like contraption with a large ratchet). No hub couplings are the hardware used to join cast iron.

I'd like to avoid removing the pipe. However I can't just replace the bolt. If you look at the picture, the right bolt hole is no longer a hole, just a cutout. The left one is rusted on. Is there something I could attach on top of this? Other options?

krow
03-07-2008, 10:39 AM
What is that plastic looking rim that is sitting in the centre? Is it the wax gasket horn? If it is, it can be removed and we can try and see how its attached to the top.

Some flanges come with little notches that the bolts slide into. The bolt that is there now, should come out with a slight tapping with a hanmmer. It doesn't look like its bolted down.

See if you can clean away some of the rust accumulation to give us a cleared view of this base, but it looks like a flange to me.

krow
03-07-2008, 11:35 AM
That is a flange. It is chaulked with lead and okum into the cast iron hub joint. I'm extremely surprised that they did not use lead in between the CI and the flange (commonly done). If you can't make this flange work, then you are going to have to remove the flange and the 1/4 bend below it. You can join to it with a No Hub coupling

krow
03-07-2008, 11:46 AM
Its going to be a real headache for you to cut this material, so here is what I proposed earlier

eva01
03-07-2008, 11:49 AM
That is a flange. It is chaulked with lead and okum into the cast iron hub joint. I'm extremely surprised that they did not use lead in between the CI and the flange (commonly done). If you can't make this flange work, then you are going to have to remove the flange and the 1/4 bend below it. You can join to it with a No Hub coupling

What is the CI?

Now that I look at it again...can I try to just put new bolts in the grooves and attach the toilet to that? These bolts have no nuts over the top, are there suppose to be some? I don't see how they are secured to the flange otherwise (except here where the rust was holding them in.

One more quick question, what height does the finished floor need to be in relation to the top of this flange? How much wiggle room do I have for this?

I really hope I can just reuse this pipe, thank you for all the help, this has been an ongoing nightmare.

krow
03-07-2008, 12:06 PM
CI = cast iron

I don't see any reason why you can't reuse what you have

The new brass toilet bolts will be longer and have a flat piece that sits under the flange (as you will see when you remove the old one). A small drawing of what it looks like is attached to the picture. The nuts will come with the bolts when you purchase them, along with brass washers

Idealy, the flange will sit on the finished floor surface. You have1/4" max below and above the finished floor for wiggle room. The wax gasket will take up any slack between the WC and flange

eva01
03-07-2008, 12:14 PM
Awesome! You're a life saver. I had someone tell me today on another board I am SOL and I have to replace it. I'm off to get this done, this is the only throne in my condo=)

Gary Swart
03-07-2008, 12:18 PM
I'm sure it is possible to make this work, but I think you should consider the overall condition of what you are working with. Do you think this will last 20, 30 or more years? The condition will certainly not get better as time passes and sooner or later you will be forced to rip up the floor and replace this mess. Don't you think the time to do it right is now while everything is already torn up and open. This would be a very easy and simple job for a plumber. He would cut the cast iron pipe to get rid of all the rusted parts, use a no hub connector to transition to PVC, and a new flange. This is a doable DIY job, but I infer from your questions that you are not familiar with this type of plumbing so that's why I suggest professional help on this job.

krow
03-07-2008, 12:31 PM
What Gary suggested is the ideal thing to do. But then again , I'm not flipping the bill

Gary Swart
03-07-2008, 01:17 PM
Like the old Fram oil filter commercial, "Pay me now or pay me later." Granted, it won't be inexpensive to hire a professional, but it will be far less than what you will be faced with in the future when that pile of rust finally fails completely and you have to tear out your floor.

jadnashua
03-07-2008, 03:08 PM
It isn't that big a deal to remove the flange. Since it looks like a 4" pipe, you could get a new flange that uses a compression ring and gasket to seal a new one on from the inside. You could get your finished floor done, then insert the new flange, expand the fitting to make the seal, then screw it through into the subflooring. Unfortuneatly, there isn't any there! to screw into.

In the interim, you should be able to anchor a toilet in place temporarilly until you get closer to having the finished flooring down.

Keep in mind that if you are going to add tile, you need at least 1/2" of plywood then cbu or a membrane on top of the planks before you can put down the tile. If your plans are along that path, your flange will be too low.

They do make flange repair rings that would give you a place to anchor the toilet. They are designed to use the screw holes and then anchor to the floor, but again, they cut the boards such there there doesn't appear to be anything to screw into. They also do make flange extenders, but the state of the flange you have means I'd really prefer to replace it.

If you whack the edge of the flange, it will likely break, then you can pry off the lead that is holding it in place. Or, if you're too timid to do that, you can drill out some of the lead, pry it out, then pry off the flange.

It sounds like you may be installing and removing the toilet as you do your remodeling...wax rings are cheap, but depending on how often you are going to do it, consider a waxless seal. You'll have to wire brush some of the crud off the inside of the pipe to allow a good seal first, though.

hj
03-07-2008, 05:54 PM
I would do it the easiest way. A couple of whacks with a hammer and chisel and the old flange would be off. Another whack and the lead and oakum would be history. Next, replace the floor and flooring leaving a space around the closet bend's riser. Finally, I would come back and lead/oakum a new flange onto the pipe. No messing with the existing pipe, or cutting it, no PVC or ABS transitions, and no leaks.

eva01
03-07-2008, 06:15 PM
Ok, after reading the replies and cleaning more gunk off I see what you mean. I originally thought the pipe/flange was one piece, sure looked like it. Now I see the top and outside ring are around the pipe. So the pipe itself doesn't have a lip at the top?

I'll try to whack the flange off tomorrow, or else I'll be getting a knock from my neighbors:D

I think I know what to buy, as I was just at HD. The cast iron flange replacement, it's pvc on top and it has 3 screws inside that expand the elastic hub right?

Or do I need to just put a new cast iron flange on with oakum and lead? What does that seal exactly, do I solder it...totally lost once again.

krow
03-07-2008, 07:40 PM
Or do I need to just put a new cast iron flange on with oakum and lead? What does that seal exactly, do I solder it...totally lost once again.

To do the oakum and lead joint, you will need about 1/2 pound of lead, I metal pot to melt the lrad in , 1 ladle(for pouring the lead), 1 burner to melt the lead, at least 1 chaulking iron to pack the oakum and some oakum (Horse hair).......... oh, I almost forgot, a few years of experience in the old school plumbing

I suspect you are not equipped to do this. You may want to stick with rubber seals

tototalitarian
03-08-2008, 01:19 AM
Please take pix, this is interesting....what a challenge.
Thanks
Good luck

Cass
03-08-2008, 02:25 AM
Be sure you have everything you need and the knowlage to do it, B 4 you wack anything off.

srdenny
03-08-2008, 06:21 AM
I'd do what hj suggests. In fact, I did one yesterday. I still lead my ring in. Haven't purchased lead but once in over 30 years. Lead=the recyclable metal.

master plumber mark
03-08-2008, 06:34 AM
Be sure you have everything you need and the knowlage to do it, B 4 you wack anything off.


I agree with Cass,

Never Wack anything off unless you know what you are doing..

and are willing to accept the consequences for your actions....

hj
03-08-2008, 06:48 AM
1. It takes about 4# of lead.
2. Melt the lead in the ladle
3. Reuse the lead from the old joint if there is enough of it.

Pouring a Lead Joint (http://www.terrylove.com/lead_joint.htm)

eva01
03-08-2008, 08:46 AM
I don't plan on pouring any lead, going with some kind of rubber seal. I've been trying to do some more reading to figure this out. Maybe a closet flange repair kit would work in this case?

I also may need to raise the floor height higher than it was previously. So I've been reading there are extenders I could use over the current flange? I'm still not sure how those are suppose to attach to my current cast iron flange though.

The twist and set from oatey looks promising, but I'm going to have to go to the store to make sure it'll fit in my pipe. It may be too long as my pipe runs horizontally out, and curves up a very short distance.

eva01
03-08-2008, 02:35 PM
Ok I bought the cast iron replacement flange and it seems to fit ok. I didn't remove the old flange though, I'm still trying to figure out the heights to see if I need to. I need to raise the height of my floor anyway, to create a stable subfloor around these tricky areas of pipe.

If I remove the old flange, I'll build up the plywood, then tile, and secure the new flange into the plywood and have it sitting flush with the tile. As long as it's secured to the floor, and the rubber seal fills any gap in the pipe, I should be golden right?

I may be able to keep the old flange in, and just treat it as part of the pipe. As long as there's a layer in between the old and new flange, and it's secure I should be good.

Hopefully I'm not missing something here. Since my rough-in is 10.5", I'm looking to get the AS Cadet 3 10" rough in toilet. The reviews seem favorable here. I was originally going to get the only 10" rough available locally at HD, a Pegasus Cottage...which don't have favorable reviews.

hj
03-08-2008, 04:09 PM
What kind of flange did you buy? If it fits over the outside of the pipe, there is no way you can leave the old flange on it, and if it goes inside you had better make sure it is fairly smooth so the rubber gasket will seal to it. Personally, I do not use the internal expansion ones.

jadnashua
03-08-2008, 04:55 PM
The flange should be installed on top of the FINISHED floor, and anchored through it. If you have enough room to get a decent piece of ply over the floor and the old flange and everything is nice and flat AND you can clean enough crud off the inside of the pipe so you can achieve a good seal, then you should be able to use the internal one.

It would be best if you leaded in a new one.

srdenny
03-09-2008, 04:22 PM
If molten lead is not your cup of tea, try one of these compression type flanges:

Available at your local plumbing supply house