Redgard for tiled shower? Waterproof...

[worrywell]

Hello all,

How do I waterproof a walk-in shower? I am attempting to waterprrof a walk-in shower that will be tiled on all three walls. The size of the shower will be a standard 60 x 34. Is Redgard a good waterproof sealer for the floor and walls and then tile over it. Is this possible?

I do not want to use a pan liner, just a liquid waterproofer. The reason is that the home is located in Baja Mexico and liners are practiced yet.

The subfloor is cement and the shower is located on the second floor. I just installed the 1/2 durolock cement boards for HD on the walls. What is next?

Thanks!

[jadnashua]

Redgard is a good product, have you read the installation instructions? They are fairly detailed.

You really do need a sloped bed and a preslope, though for the pan.

The hardest part of the install is ensuring you have the prescribed thickness without voids or bubbles.

There are surface applied membranes that work well, too. www.schluter.com (http://www.schluter.com) makes Kerdi, which may be eaiser in some ways, and is maybe less prone to install errors. Noble makes some that work well, too.

[jimbo]

I would check over with the tile guys at this forum: www.johnbridge.com (http://www.johnbridge.com), to see if redguard by itself is can be the waterproof foundation on walls or floors, in lieu of cement board on walls, and vinyl liner or copper pan on floor.

[jadnashua]

REdgard is an approved substance to build the liner of a pan with. Most of the pros prefer Latticrete's version which requires embedding fiberglass reinforcement bands on the corners. The procedure is described on www.custombuildingproducts.com (http://www.custombuildingproducts.com) website. Most of the pros don't particularly like it - they prefer a traditional liner, a sheet surface membrane like Kerdi, or to just use the Redgard as a wall, niche, surface waterproofer and do the pan normally. When you are painting/rolling the stuff on, it is really hard to know when you've built up the required thickness so it will work properly. Too thick and you've got stability problems, too thin, and it is just too easy to breech it.

[worrywell]

Question applying Redgard. After I apply the Redgard it to all shower walls and floor, do I have to apply a coat of cement on top of the redgard or can I start tiling with my mortar?

Thanks!

[jadnashua]

Once the Redgard has dried/cured, it is designed to have the thinset and tile applied directly. Suggest you go to their website and read the installation instructions...you'll want to follow all of the proper steps to make the system waterproof.

It's been awhile since I read them, but I think they intend the pan liner to be done in a similar manner as if you had used a sheet liner. Double-check...if this is true, there is a preslope, Redgard, then the final setting bed, then the thinset and tile. I'm not sure it is designed for direct placement on the pan for tile. In other words, on the floor (as opposed to the walls), I'm not sure if it is intended to be tiled over directly. Normally, you'd use a clamping drain with weep holes that allow the moisture that gets under the tile and grout to flow down to the waterproof membrane, and out the weep holes.

The only systems I'm familiar with that have the waterproofing right underneath the tile is Wedi, and Kerdi. There may be others, double-check the installation instructions for Redgard. I loaned my TCNA spec out, and can't look it up, but the www.custombuildingproducts.com (http://www.custombuildingproducts.com) website should have their installation instructions on it.

[johnfrwhipple]

I have never done any shower pans before with Custom's RedGuard. I prefer working with Mapei's Aqua Defense or Laticrete's Hydro Ban. Both of these companies have a reinforcement mesh available - I have never seen one from Custom but imagine they as well have it. I have heard here locally of a number of failures where liquid waterproofing was used and this reinforcement material was skipped and I would imagine that the installer failed to follow all directions.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5189/5619492900_636f4587dc.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/52072035@N00/5619492900/)
Red Guard (http://www.flickr.com/photos/52072035@N00/5619492900/) by dranney (http://www.flickr.com/people/52072035@N00/), on Flickr

Here is a good example of a Red Guard installation on Flickr. You can see the Wonder Board (Cement Board) has been installed correctly and the seams taped with most likely a mesh and thin-set. It also appears that the bottom of the wonderboard has been Kerdi-Fixed or Siliconed.


When using liquid waterproofing in is so important to have a clean backer to adhere it too. Dust is the number one bond breaker - get rid of it before using any setting materials or waterproofing products.

Floor deflection can cause stress points at the floor to wall point. All tiles surfaces need to be free from deflection ratings under L/320 and a L/720 or higher is ideal for both wall and floor assemblies.

When tile failure occurs the most common reason is a "Bond Breakers". Bond Breakers can also cause liquid waterproofing installs to fail as well. Make sure your cement base is cured. A fresh mud pan or dry pack is going to shrink - this will cause stress on your floor to wall transition if the waterproofing is done to soon.

The wall boards and shower base needs to be sound and free from dust, debris and deflection.

I prefer to tape the seams of all my backer units with stucco mesh (4-6" strips) and thin-set. We allow this step to cure and then waterproof the walls as per manufactures recommendations. The use of the secondary fabric increases the strength of this layer. Remember to install the liquid at the proper thickness. A mill gauge reader can often be found at paint supply stores of finer tile setting supply shops. Laticrete has a great on.

If your in a rush consider using Nobel TS and rapid setting materials - this is the fasted way to construct a shower I have found. Always flood test your showers to insure the work is sound.


Here is some slab work going into a Aqua Defense Shower in North Vancouver;

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/Mapei%20-%20Setting%20Materials%20and%20Waterproofing/IMG_5274.jpg

A picture of the flood testing;

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/Mapei%20-%20Setting%20Materials%20and%20Waterproofing/AquaDefenseVancouver.jpg

Mapei also makes a product called HPG;

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/Mapei%20-%20Setting%20Materials%20and%20Waterproofing/HPGFloodTest.jpg

The HPG is a one step application and I prefer working with the Aqua Defense if I have the choice.
Good Luck.

[jadnashua]

John, John, John, this thread is 3-years old...

[johnfrwhipple]

John, John, John, this thread is 3-years old...

Is it? All this time and no new information. Glad I could help out.

:) (http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?2555-Square-Shower-Drain)

Jim you as well help out with old threads I see (http://www.terrylove.com/forums/showthread.php?2555-Square-Shower-Drain). I would think after two plus years he made a choice on the right shower drain.


...The only systems I'm familiar with that have the waterproofing right underneath the tile is Wedi, and Kerdi. There may be others, double-check the installation instructions for Redgard...

Jim there are so many others. I know you and your friends over on John's site recommend Kerdi over every other method but Redguard is approved for this application as well. So is Nobel Companies Nobel TS, Laticrete's Hydro Ban, Mapei HPG and Mapei Aquadefense. There is even more but these are the ones I'm familiar with. The data sheet for Red Guard (http://www.custombuildingproducts.com/docs/TDS104_RedGard_3_11.pdf?user=arc&lang=en) is right here. With a simple read you can see it can be used like a traditional liner and covered with a mortar bed or used directly under the tile. The data sheet mentions that the reinforcement material is optional and this is where I disagree with there specs. I like that the reinforcement material I work with from Laticrete and Mapei is like a fleece - it makes for a very strong corner!

Here is a look at one of my current projects here in North Vancouver under flood testing as we speak. I stopped by yesterday and filled the shower pan with 22 Gallons of water. I like to use the reinforcement material around the drains and in the corners. Before any of the walls where waterproofed I tapped the seams with stucco mesh and thin-set.

Here is a look;

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/Hydro%20Ban%20-%20Vancouver%20Bathroom%20Waterproofing/IMG_5489.jpg

The reinforcement mesh looks like this;

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/Hydro%20Ban%20-%20Vancouver%20Bathroom%20Waterproofing/IMG_5400.jpg

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/Hydro%20Ban%20-%20Vancouver%20Bathroom%20Waterproofing/IMG_5492.jpg

Liquid waterproofing is ideal for shower bases and walls and not to mention custom made shower niches which can be a real PITA with products like Nobel TS or Kerdi.

I prefer using Kerdi and Nobel in our steam shower builds and use them when very tight time lines need to be achieved. When I'm in a super rush it is Nobel TS and rapid setting materials. In an average shower there is often time not to rush and then the liquids preform very well.

The shower I show case will have a tile top drain and we will be covering the Hydroban with a thin layer of Mapecum Screed mortar when I set the drain in. The weep holes will be protected from blockage with Candle Wick and the client will have peace of mind her new shower will last and last.

She did look at me weird when I was humping in buckets of water...

JW

[geniescience]

Great information. I think that there have been millions of showers built with liquid applied membranes. On the internet, it appears to be quite the opposite. (and that smells fishy.) I am glad that someone who has built more than a handful of showers has posted a few more details.

[johnfrwhipple]

If your Walk In Shower is barrier free you might consider working with Mapeband and Mapei's Aquadefense. Here is a little video slide show showing our last barrier free walk in we built out in Burnaby.

The temporary dam for the flood test took me less than a half hour to construct and the inspector gave the shower his stamp of approval. Always flood test your work and the work of others - it is the only way to insure that the shower was built properly.


http://youtu.be/atHckvMT-44

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/My%20Shower%20Grate%20Shop/CurblessShowerDesignVancouver.jpg

The drain is installed in this picture.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/My%20Shower%20Grate%20Shop/SchluterStripwithLinearDrainVancouver.jpg

A Schluter Profile used as a baby dam on this build. This drain is located a mere 7" from the bathroom's entry and the shower glass panels will be two doors set direct over the Wedge Wire Linear Drain.

[jadnashua]

I'm by no means against a good liquid waterproofing system - they work, and work well. There's a big BUT in there, though. Many first-timers do NOT get the required thickness, and if you aren't careful, you can have a pinhole leak. that's a lot harder with a sheet membrane. And, the stuff is fragile until it is covered and accumulates dirt if it sits very long that's hard to clean off. I just think that there is more redundency with the overlap on a sheet membrane. Now, if you've done many, a good liquid applied membrane is fine, but I'd rather use something other than RedGard, but that would work if you follow the instructions (important for ANY system!) and reliably get the proper thickness with no voids or pinholes.

[geniescience]

it's not fair, to point out fine grained details that you have heard or read somewhere. It would be easy for me to build counter arguments that make people doubt the orange sheet membrane. Very easy.

[johnfrwhipple]

"...There's a big But in there..."

LOL

[johnfrwhipple]

Here is a tub to shower renovation where Hydro Ban was used with a standard CanPlas three piece clamping drain. I'm going to install a linear drain over this rough in and make this shower a one way slope. Left to Right. Over the low profile curb will be a fixed glass panel and single door.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/Hydro%20Ban%20-%20Vancouver%20Bathroom%20Waterproofing/Screenshot2011-08-25at73929PM.png

[Keith the tile guy]

RedGard is a great product when installed properly. It is approved for walls, ceilings, shower pan liners...and yes, even steam
showers.

I have been a pro for 25 years and the stuff has not failed me yet...and I have been using it since it first came out.
IMHO, it is much easier than kerdi and nobleseal.

I always use mesh tape around the drains and where 2 surfaces meet. It allows you to encapsulate the entire shower from
the ceiling to the drain. You can brush, roll, and even spray it on ( use a size 25 to 29 tip ) and man it goes on quick.

It's perm rating is great and test show that when cured, it can stretch 5 1/2x it's size without leaking. Now why wouldn't
anyone want to use a product like that?

I often hear tile guys put down Redgard, saying Kerdi this or Noble that...and scratch my head....as it can marry to an adjustable ring drain and is so quick and can carry a Manufacturer's LIFETIME WARRANTY...yeah you read that right.

Build dozens of tile showers in a new hotel....and tell me that manually applying Kerdi or Noble is quicker than spraying 45 mil
of Redgard.....cause it aint so.

My opinion....Worth the price charged

[johnfrwhipple]

...My opinion....Worth the price charged...

Keith that is CX's tag line. The Bird Guy.

Keith can you share some work pictures with us? How many coats with a brush to make the 45 mil coverage requirement for steam showers. I would think about 4-5.

How long does it take to clean your sprayer after you use it? I would imagine your not spraying 45 mil all in one go.

Where are the test results you mention in your post?

I would believe you more if you had a larger post count and not a whopping one post. If you could upload a few work pictures and a link to your company I would further believe your claims. Until such time I'll chalk your post up to "Online Spamming" the kind we see from industry reps, local stores and paid marketing professionals. I hope you prove me wrong and you share this information with us.

JW

[Ceci]

Hi John,

I have a question if you don't mind. Would it create a problem if one were to do the preslope, then put in a Oatey pan liner, then the final mudbed, and then redgard the whole thing? Just asking since someone who came out to my house stated he does it that way. Never heard of using both the Oatey pan liner and the redgard over the final mud bed. He would use the redgard over the Hardieboard shower walls also as the way to waterproof them.

Thanks,
Ceci

[jadnashua]

That's not a good idea. If everything was perfect, it might work out. If the weep holes were compromised, you'd end up with moisture trapped between the two layers. If you want a surface membrane, use a surface membrane, either a painted on one or a fabric. Don't try to mix systems. All of the approved methods stick to one means of waterproofing. A surface membrane has advantages - much less to get saturated, quicker drying times, and, therefore, a lower chance of mold. Mold requires three things: moisture, spores (can't really get rid of them), and food. You can minimize food by being meticulous in your cleaning regimen, but few people are - those nooks and crannies are tough to keep squeaky clean.

[johnfrwhipple]

Hi John,

I have a question if you don't mind. Would it create a problem if one were to do the preslope, then put in a Oatey pan liner, then the final mudbed, and then redgard the whole thing? Just asking since someone who came out to my house stated he does it that way. Never heard of using both the Oatey pan liner and the redgard over the final mud bed. He would use the redgard over the Hardieboard shower walls also as the way to waterproof them.

Thanks,
Ceci

Noble Company makes some of the best liners in the city and also a simple weep hole protector to take all the worries out of blocking them up. Candle wick can also be used to remove this fear. Noble sells them for less than $5.00 (https://www.noblecompanyonlinestore.com/_store.php?func=product_list&c=sc&brdct=true).

It is funny that the double protection scenerio comes up as I was just at Mapei's training facility here in Vancouver a couple weeks back at this exact scenerio was advertised as a "Belt & Suspenders" approach.

There are a couple of things to watch out for.

1). If there is two much moisture in the mud bed it will cause the Red Guard to blister. This happens I believe when the moisture is fighting to get out. This will happen with Aqua D, Hydro Ban or any of the liquids if the base has not cured out. For a dry pack I would wait two weeks at least. For a Mapecum screed mortar base about three days.

2). The corners and change in plane I feel need fabric to reinforce them.

3). Regardless of the care you take you still have only the liner set into the clamping drain.

4). Most liners come with a one year warranty as they shrink and break down over time. Find a better liner (again look into Noble's liner)

I would not be scared about this approach but would inquire into the timeline of events. You do not want this scenerio rushed.

Ask your tile setter if he has worked with the Noble Flex Flashing. This can turn any clamping drain into a "Kerdi Like" drain with a large surface area to tie in your liquid waterproofing material. Get a good plan of attack and check with Noble and your liquid waterproofing company for approval first. This is one of my favourite upgrades here in Vancouver when we come across a shower with no pre-slope and a cheap liner.

Good Luck.

[johnfrwhipple]

I stumbled upon this link on Shower Liner Flood tests and thought I would share it.

Here is the ICC's take on "Flood Testing" (http://publicecodes.citation.com/icod/ipc/2009/icod_ipc_2009_3_sec012_par009.htm?bu=IC-P-2009-000004&bu2=IC-P-2009-000019)Shower pan liners.

http://publicecodes.citation.com/icod/ipc/2009/icod_ipc_2009_3_sec012_par009.htm?bu=IC-P-2009-000004&bu2=IC-P-2009-000019

JW

[jadnashua]

Except during a flood test, a typical shower should never see much of any liquid water on the liner; and, if it is constructed properly, any that does get there will flow to the drain through the weep holes, if that kind of a drain is utilized and the liner is properly sloped (people that put the liner flat on the floor deserve any grief they get!). If it is something like a surface membrane shower, there may not be any weep holes, and, since it is then immediately beneath the tile which should be bonded well with thinset, there couldn't be much liquid water there at all since the thinset and tile are nearly a solid mass, bonded to the surface membrane.

Kerdi tends to bead water if you just drop some on the surface, so if you flooded it, it could take awhile for it all to become totally wetted, thus the initial drop in level. Then, any exposed thinset would absorb a little as well. Once equilibrium has been reached, except for evaporation, it should be stable. A drop after that reaching that initial equilibrium would indicate a leak.

[johnfrwhipple]

Water levels do not drop when doing a flood test.

This - like much of Jim's advice I'm sure he picked up reading posts on John Bridge's forum. Kerdi does not repel water and rarely beads water. It might bead if you just unrolled some and the roll still has a static charge from unrolling.

When introduced to water Kerdi in fact "Wicks" water - much like Noble Seal TS, Dal Seal, Wall Seal and so on.

A drop of 1/8" in a standard shower represents a drop of roughly 4 bottles of wine in water volume.

Shower's take time to dry out after each use and water does not "Flow" through mortar but wick with the help of gravity through the mortar and along the waterproofing membrane. Any path out of the shower will see water passage. If it is a poor seam in your Kerdi, your Noble, your Hydro Ban you can be sure that will be the spot that sees the most water migration. This is why you need to flood test your showers.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/KERDI%20Water%20Testing%20and%20Waterproofing%20in %20Vancover/IMG_0896.jpg

If Kerdi "Repelled Water" ask yourself why it wicks up this Kerdi test box I made.

If this job had been "Flood Tested" or installed properly we might not have had to rip it all out.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/KERDI%20Water%20Testing%20and%20Waterproofing%20in %20Vancover/Screenshot2011-08-25at82206PM.png

Waterproofing membranes are not Magic. They will leak - even with a pinhole.

I have read numerous times online that Kerdi is "Hydrophobic" and even with a pinhole will not leak.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/KERDI%20Water%20Testing%20and%20Waterproofing%20in %20Vancover/Screenshot2010-09-08at74620AM.png

Guess what? It does. And so do the rest of them.

How do you tell if you have a pinhole - Flood testing.

We get a lot of recommendations on Terry's site for Kerdi products. Mostly from Jim. Remember Jim never worked in this industry and his buddies all promote Kerdi and Kerdi books online. Jim has never shown us a flood tests nor does he post pictures of his projects - most likely because he has none or is not impressed with the finished product.


Water weighs about 8 pounds per gallon - it will not "Float on Kerdi". What a load of crap.....

If you fill up your Kerdi shower pan and mark the water level (wait about 5-10 minutes for the water to stop moving around) and the water level drops 1/8" in the first hour.

Pull the plug - you have a leak

[johnfrwhipple]

This thread was about "Red Guard" for shower construction.

It might help some people to make their minds up about a shower waterproofing system if they knew that with the right selection of Custom Building Products products you can get a 25 year warranty.

25 years is a long warranty in this business. The longest out there. Tied with Laticrete's.

How confident do you think a company is to offer up a 25 year warranty?

Now you don't get that working over drywall. And you don't get that with a dry set or un-modified thinset but if you use "Wonder Board" or Custom's cement board and their premium modified thin set you do. 25 years is a great warranty.

Or you can use Laticrete's products and get the same (again some certain products need to be used, ie no drywall etc).

I believe Schluter offers a 5 year limited warranty. Which company do you think has more faith in their products? You can read all the disclaimers on the Kerdi warranty here (http://www.schluter.com/media/ShowerHandbook.pdf). The warranty info is on page 39. Look at the bottom in a section all it's own a paragraph reviewing the fact that no oral warranties are allowed. This means no Schluter rep can give you advice outside the published Kerdi install instructions and you will still have a warranty unless you get permission first from head office.

Red Guard 25 year warranty option
Laticrete 25 year warranty option
Mapei 15 year warranty option
Kerdi 5 year warranty option.

Who makes the better products?

[jadnashua]

A big baking pan left out in my home, filled to the brim, was down more than an 1/8" in 24-hours. Now, add the fleece on the waterproofing membrane to the sides, and it could easily have been more. Vancouver's average humidity levels are pretty high. Some places are not. Then, throw in central heating, with or without humidification, and the variances you'll get can be significant from season to season and home to home. To state the level will not drop is condition dependent, and ignoring simple physics. Any evidence of moisture penetrating things is a cause for concern and remedy...a slight drop, may not be. Any rapid drop is a great concern.

Your box, coated with Kerdi does not appear to be well adhered to the substrate with a full coat of thinset. For the material and seams to work, both they and the entire material needs to be properly embedded. I've touched a cardboard box, filled with ice and water for months, waterproofed with Kerdi only on the inside that was still intact, entirely dry. Installed properly, it does not leak. No special materials used...just Kerdi and thinset plus good technique. If you can't replicate that, you're doing something wrong.

A Hyundai has a 10-year warranty on the drivetrain...a Mercedes 4-years...which is a better car? The length of a warranty isn't necessarily an indication of quality.

[johnfrwhipple]

Down an 1/8" overnight. So 1" of water in your town evaporates in 8 days Jim. Wow. I had no idea!!!

Perhaps then in your neck of the woods when preforming a flood test a person should fill a dish with one inch of water. Measure the time it takes to evaporate and then do the math on the evaporation levels.

The test box I made was well set and installed as per Schluter Instructions.

Did you document the evaporation results Jim?

Can you show us another example? Perhaps do two inches and see if that evaporates in 16 days?

[jadnashua]

I went away for two weeks and the (lid-closed) toilet bowl was down a couple of inches...relative humidity levels vary radically across the country. Flat saying any water sitting out will not drop in level is just wrong...it may be true in the summer without a/c and close to 100% RH, but not in many locales. All I can tell you is that I filled the pan to the brim - overflowing, and the next day, it was down over 1/8". No fans running (radiant heat), the pan sitting in the sink.

[johnfrwhipple]

Down overnight 1/8" is night and day different than down 1/8" in an hour.

A Kerdi flood test that drops 1/8" in an hour is leaking. Water does not float on Kerdi. And it does not drop an 1/8" in an hour.

The one thing I love about liquid membranes is after the flood test you are left with a perfectly level line as a reference guide for tiling.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/Hydro%20Ban%20-%20Vancouver%20Bathroom%20Waterproofing/IMG_5489.jpg

A Hydro Ban shower under flood test.

You can see movement in the water. This settles down after about 5-10 minutes and quicker if you take more care filling the flood test.


Another important consideration in flood testing showers is understanding that Kerdi, Noble Seal TS, Wall Seal, Dal Seal etc .... is that these products wick water. I have received a few emails from people across the States that they have noticed water leaking from the top of the curb. This the result of filling a flood test up to high and the water wicks across the top of the curb and collects and drips. This does not happen with a liquid membrane. Or at least I have never seen it or heard about it.

A simple stop to this is a bead of silicone, Kerdi Fix or Noble Sealant 150 across the curb.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/Hydro%20Ban%20-%20Vancouver%20Bathroom%20Waterproofing/IMG_0399.jpg

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/Hydro%20Ban%20-%20Vancouver%20Bathroom%20Waterproofing/IMG_0401.jpg

Here you can see the flood test of another Hydro Ban shower up and over the curb. I used a few screws to mark the water level for this project. I left the shower under flood for three days. The water level did not move off it's mark.

Look at the picture closely. What do you notice? If you work with liquid membranes enough you should notice that the colour of the Hydro Ban is too light. If you can easley read the printing on a backer board the chances are the liquid membrane was applied to thin. You should also notice that my curb is too high on the left. If the curb was perfectly level and at the exact proper grade the water level would be a deadly straight line. This curb is out about 3/16" and not my best work but I floated out the right side and the tile setter did a great job. In the end the curb was perfect but my point is more the usefulness of the water line a flood test creates and how to use it to build a better shower!

Since I need to come back and drain this flood test I normally apply the second or third coat then.

http://i839.photobucket.com/albums/zz314/jfrwhipple/Mapei%20-%20Setting%20Materials%20and%20Waterproofing/AquaDefenseVancouver.jpg

Here is a Mapei Aquadefense shower under flood test. The darker colour turns lighter. After we drain this shower this mark I transfer for my setters who can use it as a reference mark. Better than a laser. More accurate than a level.

Nice. You can see in the picture that if water wicked over the curb it would change colours. It does not.



JW